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On January 28 2014 06:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote: I think you'd have a damn hard time trying to prove that one sex has it better than the other.
seems pretty easy actually
Can you do it, then?
18% of the House of Rep. are women, and 20% in the Senate. Given the fact that 50% of the population are women that doesn't seem really fair. Of course you could also change political institution X to everything that isn't housekeeping, prostitution, or bar tending and you'll come up with similar or worse numbers.
And I really hope you aren't going to turn to the wage gap as if that proves anything, because if anything it shows that women tend to pick lifestyles where they are in positions to earn less money
Yeah, women obviously pick stupid lifestyles because they're stupid women! It's not like the possibility exists that society tends to look down on women who chose not to get children and married,thus keeping them off the career track.
And please, why do liberal politicians want so many more college graduates? The REASON that high school degrees mean nothing now is because every average joe is going to college and graduating these days.
I'm really sorry that your own sense of superiority is hurt by other people ruining your exclusive status of being a college graduate. You feeling special is obviously more important to the country than having a well educated workforce.
On January 28 2014 06:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote: I think you'd have a damn hard time trying to prove that one sex has it better than the other.
seems pretty easy actually
Can you do it, then?
18% of the House of Rep. are women, and 20% in the Senate. Given the fact that 50% of the population are women that doesn't seem really fair. Of course you could also change political institution X to everything that isn't housekeeping, prostitution, or bar tending and you'll come up with similar or worse numbers.
And I really hope you aren't going to turn to the wage gap as if that proves anything, because if anything it shows that women tend to pick lifestyles where they are in positions to earn less money
Yeah, women obviously pick stupid lifestyles because they're stupid women! It's not like the possibility exists that society tends to look down on women who chose not to get children and married.
And please, why do liberal politicians want so many more college graduates? The REASON that high school degrees mean nothing now is because every average joe is going to college and graduating these days.
I'm really sorry that your own sense of superiority is hurt by other people ruining your exclusive status of being a college graduate. You feeling special is obviously more important to the country than having a well educated workforce.
I'm not sure why you felt the need to be be so condescending in your post.
No, I think the majority of women actually do want to have children and be married at one point or another. If you want to have kids, someone has to grow the child for 9 months in the womb and then feed it for many more months (though the woman does not necessarily need to do this). Women do that, and men don't; I'm sorry if that is upsetting. Also, professions like teaching are heavily populated by women and don't pay as much as more male-dominant professions in STEM and the high-paying physical labor kinds of jobs. Even among medical specialists , women choose to go in to pediatrics very often - unfortunate, because it is one of the lowest paying medical specialties. But it's a choice to go into a profession that pays less, and there is nothing stopping women from becoming software developers or radiologists (many do).
How is getting a college education going to help the majority of people? I frankly don't give a shit if my dentist's assistant has a degree in sociology or theatre or electrical engineering. I would like the people designing the roads to be good civil engineers, my lawyer to know a lot about law pertaining to my case, my professors to know metric shittons about their subjects, and my doctor to have a great understanding of his/her speciality. Also, things are different in my country: the majority of college costs are on the student, and we currently have a massive student debt that just keeps growing and growing because 1. 17-18 year olds are bad at determining what is a reasonable level of debt 2. colleges charge a ton of money and 3. a lot of people are paying lots of money to get a degree in something that does not allow them to pay off their loans. This is creating an increasing burden on the nation that could end in a couple of different ways, one of which may end up being a public bailout of student loan debt, which will be horrible. We need to change the university system for the same reason that we need to give people reasonable interest rates on mortgages.
High school is already becoming a system that seeks to keep teenagers fed, get youths off the street, provide some free daycare for parents, and lower the saturation of the labor market by keeping kids in school. College doesn't have to be an extension of that. Education is good, but I don't think education for education's sake is a worthwhile endeavor considering the cost of college in this country. Hell, even in your country you have the gymnasium that keeps people that aren't university track in different schools; in our country we have all these online degree, for-profit, etc. types of programs that ensure that literally anybody can get a college degree
Question: How could it be beneficial for more people to get college degrees in the US?
On January 28 2014 02:30 Nyxisto wrote: Also a current Snowden interview a few days old:
nice, but eerie interview. he seems annoyed with journalists witholding information from or taking their sweet time in publishing information to the public, goes a long way in saying that the entire german govt has been under close surveillance for a long time, that the nsa has been used for technological and economic spying (probably both internationally and domestically, there is no oversight) and that this review board obama has appointed is worth fuck all.
On January 28 2014 06:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote: I think you'd have a damn hard time trying to prove that one sex has it better than the other.
seems pretty easy actually
Can you do it, then?
18% of the House of Rep. are women, and 20% in the Senate. Given the fact that 50% of the population are women that doesn't seem really fair. Of course you could also change political institution X to everything that isn't housekeeping, prostitution, or bar tending and you'll come up with similar or worse numbers.
Women dominate in a number of good professions - teaching, nursing, pharmacist, HR.
Men dominate in jobs where death and layoffs are more likely. So I guess if you highly value those 'perks'
On January 28 2014 06:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote: I think you'd have a damn hard time trying to prove that one sex has it better than the other.
seems pretty easy actually
Can you do it, then?
18% of the House of Rep. are women, and 20% in the Senate. Given the fact that 50% of the population are women that doesn't seem really fair. Of course you could also change political institution X to everything that isn't housekeeping, prostitution, or bar tending and you'll come up with similar or worse numbers.
Women dominate in a number of good professions - teaching, nursing, pharmacist, HR.
Men dominate in jobs where death and layoffs are more likely. So I guess if you highly value those 'perks'
On January 28 2014 06:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote: I think you'd have a damn hard time trying to prove that one sex has it better than the other.
seems pretty easy actually
Can you do it, then?
18% of the House of Rep. are women, and 20% in the Senate. Given the fact that 50% of the population are women that doesn't seem really fair. Of course you could also change political institution X to everything that isn't housekeeping, prostitution, or bar tending and you'll come up with similar or worse numbers.
Women dominate in a number of good professions - teaching, nursing, pharmacist, HR.
Men dominate in jobs where death and layoffs are more likely. So I guess if you highly value those 'perks'
Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
On January 28 2014 12:02 Ghostcom wrote: Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
Women can do whatever the fuck that they want in society now. If anything, they have an easier time doing whatever want due to the subtle affirmative action that is inherent in many institutions and industries.
Maybe men and women aren't equal in their preferred professions. Is it some kind of biological conspiracy? Fewer women wanting to be drill instructors, coal miners, computer scientists?
Even to the point of valuing lower paid jobs if there's intense job satisfaction as opposed to men?
If you go about finding sinister motives for every difference in society, you'll find some and create many more.
On January 28 2014 06:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote: I think you'd have a damn hard time trying to prove that one sex has it better than the other.
seems pretty easy actually
Can you do it, then?
18% of the House of Rep. are women, and 20% in the Senate. Given the fact that 50% of the population are women that doesn't seem really fair. Of course you could also change political institution X to everything that isn't housekeeping, prostitution, or bar tending and you'll come up with similar or worse numbers.
Women dominate in a number of good professions - teaching, nursing, pharmacist, HR.
Men dominate in jobs where death and layoffs are more likely. So I guess if you highly value those 'perks'
I hope this entire post is sarcasm.
Why?
Can't have humor existing alongside a good argument.
On January 28 2014 10:37 Chocolate wrote: How is getting a college education going to help the majority of people? I frankly don't give a shit if my dentist's assistant has a degree in sociology or theatre or electrical engineering. I would like the people designing the roads to be good civil engineers, my lawyer to know a lot about law pertaining to my case, my professors to know metric shittons about their subjects, and my doctor to have a great understanding of his/her speciality. Also, things are different in my country: the majority of college costs are on the student, and we currently have a massive student debt that just keeps growing and growing because 1. 17-18 year olds are bad at determining what is a reasonable level of debt 2. colleges charge a ton of money and 3. a lot of people are paying lots of money to get a degree in something that does not allow them to pay off their loans. This is creating an increasing burden on the nation that could end in a couple of different ways, one of which may end up being a public bailout of student loan debt, which will be horrible. We need to change the university system for the same reason that we need to give people reasonable interest rates on mortgages.
High school is already becoming a system that seeks to keep teenagers fed, get youths off the street, provide some free daycare for parents, and lower the saturation of the labor market by keeping kids in school. College doesn't have to be an extension of that. Education is good, but I don't think education for education's sake is a worthwhile endeavor considering the cost of college in this country. Hell, even in your country you have the gymnasium that keeps people that aren't university track in different schools; in our country we have all these online degree, for-profit, etc. types of programs that ensure that literally anybody can get a college degree
Question: How could it be beneficial for more people to get college degrees in the US?
The harsh tone only stems from the fact that we had this discussion like 20 pages ago. Regarding the education: Basically every indicator shows that people who have a college education, are profiting greatly from it. They live longer, are happier, earn more money, there's a very low chance they are unemployed .. and so on and so forth. So there's your individual benefit. And that's basically true for every developed country, not just the US.
More college graduates are also awesome because blue - collar jobs are simply going away and/or get automatized.(The energy sector due to the fracking boom in the US might be an exception), but generally low paid jobs will go away over the next decades. College graduates are also more productive and create more growth, so that's also awesome.
I can't imagine why any developed country would have such a thing as "too much highly educated people".
Regarding the cost of college education that's really not the fault of the people who want to get a degree. The government should provide the framework so that people who want to pursue a degree are able to so without running into a financial crisis.
Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
The socialist states are a pretty good example(well they're not a good example for pretty much anything else) that if the "western christian" values and norms aren't in place you'll find yourself pretty fast in a society where women are equally represented in western "men dominated" fields. I think that's a pretty strong indicator that the whole "science is for man, education for women" thing is really a western/religious cultural thing. (for example the Soviet military or hard science)
On January 28 2014 12:02 Ghostcom wrote: Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
Women can do whatever the fuck that they want in society now. If anything, they have an easier time doing whatever want due to the subtle affirmative action that is inherent in many institutions and industries.
Yeah except earn the same money for the same job. *sigh*
On January 28 2014 12:02 Ghostcom wrote: Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
Women can do whatever the fuck that they want in society now. If anything, they have an easier time doing whatever want due to the subtle affirmative action that is inherent in many institutions and industries.
Yeah except earn the same money for the same job. *sigh*
They aren't "the same job" though. When you control for things like hours worked and whatnot the gap falls nearly to zero. What remains can likely be explained by other legitimate factors. The wage gap is pretty much a myth.
On January 28 2014 12:02 Ghostcom wrote: Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
Women can do whatever the fuck that they want in society now. If anything, they have an easier time doing whatever want due to the subtle affirmative action that is inherent in many institutions and industries.
Yeah except earn the same money for the same job. *sigh*
They aren't "the same job" though. When you control for things like hours worked and whatnot the gap falls nearly to zero. What remains can likely be explained by other legitimate factors. The wage gap is pretty much a myth.
The conservative MO live at work here :"If the liberals seem to be right than we'll just start to deny that well established facts are true". Also works really great with climate change. So you've heard Jonny guys, there is no discrimnation, time to go home.
Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
The socialist states are a pretty good example(well they're not a good example for pretty much anything else) that if the "western christian" values and norms aren't in place you'll find yourself pretty fast in a society where women are equally represented in western "men dominated" fields. I think that's a pretty strong indicator that the whole "science is for man, education for women" thing is really a western/religious cultural thing. (for example the Soviet military or hard science)
So am I to understand that you are measuring the gender equality of a society based on the gender distribution in professions expecting it to mirror that of the population (i.e. 50:50 if there is a 1:1 ratio of men:women)?
Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
The socialist states are a pretty good example(well they're not a good example for pretty much anything else) that if the "western christian" values and norms aren't in place you'll find yourself pretty fast in a society where women are equally represented in western "men dominated" fields. I think that's a pretty strong indicator that the whole "science is for man, education for women" thing is really a western/religious cultural thing. (for example the Soviet military or hard science)
So am I to understand that you are measuring the gender equality of a society based on the gender distribution in professions expecting it to mirror that of the population (i.e. 50:50 if there is a 1:1 ratio of men:women)?
All I'm saying is that we had large societies in very recent history in which we came really close to equal representation, which seems to be a big hint that at least when it comes to work our inequalities are based on "western culture" heavily influenced by religion and not biological.
Well for that graphic in particular they actually did not control for hours worked. They seem to just be median weekly earnings.
Also the first 2, fourth, and sixth professions are mostly commission based, right?
If someone has a graphic that controls for job position (i.e. not lumping pediatricians and nurses and neurosurgeons into one category) and hours worked I'd love to see it. I am open to accepting the wage gap, and I know it actually does exist in certain disciplines like postgrad scientists, but I've never been convinced by graphics like the one that was posted since they either do not state their methodology or their methodology obfuscates what I'd like to see.
On January 28 2014 12:02 Ghostcom wrote: Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
Women can do whatever the fuck that they want in society now. If anything, they have an easier time doing whatever want due to the subtle affirmative action that is inherent in many institutions and industries.
Yeah except earn the same money for the same job. *sigh*
They aren't "the same job" though. When you control for things like hours worked and whatnot the gap falls nearly to zero. What remains can likely be explained by other legitimate factors. The wage gap is pretty much a myth.
The conservative MO live at work here :"If the liberals seem to be right than we'll just start to deny that well established facts are true". Also works really great with climate change. So you've heard Jonny guys, there is no discrimnation, time to go home.
Discrimination exists (and it cuts in many directions) ... but the wage gap between men and women is almost entirely a myth. It's a topic that's been banged about on this thread multiple times and every time it gets shot down by real data that really debunks it. Sorry, but you're on the wrong side of data here.
Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
The socialist states are a pretty good example(well they're not a good example for pretty much anything else) that if the "western christian" values and norms aren't in place you'll find yourself pretty fast in a society where women are equally represented in western "men dominated" fields. I think that's a pretty strong indicator that the whole "science is for man, education for women" thing is really a western/religious cultural thing. (for example the Soviet military or hard science)
So am I to understand that you are measuring the gender equality of a society based on the gender distribution in professions expecting it to mirror that of the population (i.e. 50:50 if there is a 1:1 ratio of men:women)?
All I'm saying is that we had large societies in very recent history in which we came really close to equal representation, which seems to be a big hint that at least when it comes to work our inequalities are based on "western culture" heavily influenced by religion and not biological.
That seems largely irrelevant to my question and also blatantly ignores that those distributions were still results of social constructs and traditions meaning you have a very thin basis for your conclusion - who is to say that the western culture isn't following biology and the socialistic state is forcing it's distribution through it's design of society? The only real conclusion you can make is that it is possible to attain any gender distribution depending on how you design the society - which to me quite frankly seems somewhat self-evident.
I am still very interested in how you measure inequality.
EDIT: Upon review of my post I realize it can be read as if I'm being snarky - I am not. I'm just confused.
When I practiced as a plaintiff's employment law worker, I saw and heard about all kinds of discrimination. Most of it was fairly baseless. Whatever I basically never heard people complain about, however, was basic sex/gender discrimination -- ie female employees being treated materially worse than males. What I did hear a lot about was sexual harassment, which is a different animal.
So yeah, I'm fairly comfortable saying that women have it pretty good. Yeah, they still have to deal with pigs at work that just want to get into their pants from time to time. But this idea that they are being held back as a gender by their male overlords is pure horseshit.
On January 28 2014 12:02 Ghostcom wrote: Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
Women can do whatever the fuck that they want in society now. If anything, they have an easier time doing whatever want due to the subtle affirmative action that is inherent in many institutions and industries.
Yeah except earn the same money for the same job. *sigh*
They aren't "the same job" though. When you control for things like hours worked and whatnot the gap falls nearly to zero. What remains can likely be explained by other legitimate factors. The wage gap is pretty much a myth.
The conservative MO live at work here :"If the liberals seem to be right than we'll just start to deny that well established facts are true". Also works really great with climate change. So you've heard Jonny guys, there is no discrimnation, time to go home.
Discrimination exists (and it cuts in many directions) ... but the wage gap between men and women is almost entirely a myth. It's a topic that's been banged about on this thread multiple times and every time it gets shot down by real data that really debunks it. Sorry, but you're on the wrong side of data here.
MYTH: There is no such thing as the gender pay gap – legitimate differences between men and women cause the gap in pay, not discrimination.
REALITY: Decades of research shows a gender gap in pay even after factors like the kind of work performed and qualifications (education and experience) are taken into account. These studies consistently conclude that discrimination is the best explanation of the remaining difference in pay.
On January 28 2014 12:02 Ghostcom wrote: Is a society only gender equal when there is an equal distribution of men and women in all professions? Or is it when an individual regardless of gender has an equal opportunity to work any profession?
Women can do whatever the fuck that they want in society now. If anything, they have an easier time doing whatever want due to the subtle affirmative action that is inherent in many institutions and industries.
Yeah except earn the same money for the same job. *sigh*
They aren't "the same job" though. When you control for things like hours worked and whatnot the gap falls nearly to zero. What remains can likely be explained by other legitimate factors. The wage gap is pretty much a myth.
MYTH: But the pay gap is not my problem. Once you account for the jobs that require specialized skills or education it goes away.
REALITY: The pay gap for women with advanced degrees, corporate positions, and high paying, high skill jobs is just as real as the gap for workers overall. In a recent study of newly trained doctors, even after considering the effects of specialty, practice setting, work hours and other factors, the gender pay gap was nearly $17,000 in 2008.
EPT
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