In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
danglars -> I argued against a point you raised; it was a part of a new argument, not in particular relation to the post you reference above. I can respond to something you assert in your post, without it needing to be strongly in relation to whatever your post was a response to. If the thing in your post has issues in and of itself that are worth exploring. So you categorically deny that the republicans use some divisive rhetoric. And that they sometimes disdain the concerns of lgbt people, blacks, and various other minorities. can I count Trump as a republican for these purposes? (i'd understand if you said no, as he's rather irregular for a republican, most are more subtle about it, though they have been feeding the same well for some time)
I'd also note that the term identity politics itself, is in many ways an attempt to delegitimize the issues faced by some minorities and their attempts to get them addressed; thus it in itself is divisive rhetoric.
On July 14 2017 04:04 Artisreal wrote: GH I admire your tenacity in conversing with the folks time and again. It's so tiresome to even read, I can't imagine being confronted with that in person.
I just remind myself that I have it a lot easier than my brothers and sisters before me. Watching/reading Baldwin, MLK, Malcolm, Bayard Rustin, Fredrick Douglass, Nat Turner, Ida B Wells, and more I gain an appreciation both for what was done for me and what I owe to the next generation. The bravery they showed in a hostile America is inspiring and uplifting. I imagine white people get a different feeling from watching that recent history (remember people are still alive that saw MLK, Malcolm, Medgar, and others targeted by the FBI and eventually assassinated), they still tell theier kids stories of THEIR black experience (this can lead to incidents like was described earlier about black people hating white people). Imagine your parents telling you that black people did to them what white people did to black people (spit on them, and beat them for trying to go to school for example) many people would grow to distrust and dislike such a group.
On July 14 2017 01:52 WolfintheSheep wrote: [quote] Your point just sucks then.
North American culture is heavily influenced by Christian religion, which places social value on the same things. African-Americans are a part of North American culture. Therefore African-Americans are peaceful, QED or something.
I'd recommend not trying to broad-stroke the entirety of China, or Korea, or Japan, as a comparison point.
It's not even relevant to my point that Confucianism influenced all three cultures. I only mentioned Confucianism to justify why I grouped the three together for a point about what academics agree are Confucian values held in the culture of all three countries. Not to mention, my reference to Asia was a subpoint in a larger argument that you've totally ignored. Your posts have literally served no purpose other than to play overzealous and misguided "PC Police." Sorry you're butthurt that you got embarrassingly caught in your game of "Grandstand the Ignorant Ethnocentrist!"
The point is that Korea, Japan, and China share the cultural values of "work ethic, family values, nonviolence within communities, social stability." I didn't make cultural any claims beyond that, and you haven't even denied that those countries' cultures do share those traits. That claim isn't even remotely controversial, which is why your outrage is so silly and immature. All you've done is obstinately object that I dare try to group the three together for any cultural reason whatsoever, and tell me "your point just sucks then." You've added nothing of value to this discussion. Go troll somewhere else.
In fact, let me expand my "broad-stroke" and say that you can include Taiwan along with Korea, Japan, and China for the purposes of this discussion.
To quote the entire post I responded to:
Lots of cultures throughout the world have been as poor/poorer than the African American community and managed to raise themselves out of poverty. See Asia. The difference is that the Asians (despite their own issues with racism and other problems) have a culture of work ethic, family values, nonviolence within communities, social stability, etc.
Poverty doesn't necessarily lead to violence. Figuring out to change black culture to be less self-destructive would be a much more productive use of time than accusing whites of privilege and microaggressions.
I mean, you literally say here that the African American community can raise itself out of poverty because Asia did it. And Asians did it because they have a better culture than African Americans.
If you don't want to be called out on bad posts, don't make bad posts.
I was clearly referring to economically successful countries in Asia by the context. Which would imply... drum roll... Taiwan, Japan, Korea, China. Those countries share certain traits in their culture, which I listed explicitly and is a fact that you still haven't denied is true because common knowledge.
I'm done responding to a grandstanding troll. Come back if you want to have a real discussion. You're literally doing nothing but saying "You grouped Asia together" when it was clear from context and my following posts that it wasn't my attention. I've made several long posts with at least plausible logic and ideas going back several pages. That's a lot more effort than this troll sequence from you where you've done nothing but say "but but but you grouped 'Asia'", so maybe do some self-reflection before criticizing my posting.
Yes, so Taiwan, Japan, Korea and China are all nations, comparable to the United States.
Each of those countries have their own regions, varying in economic prosperity and poverty, with multiple mingling cultures that are fairly distinct from one another.
And yes, some of those cultural groups can be separated into "haves" and "have nots", and the latter could be comparable to African-Americans in the US.
So I don't see why you're comparing the African-American community to China. Or Japan. Or any sovereign nation.
Fine, continue to believe that an emphasis on education, family values, and non-violence in the community won't help the African-American community. After all, they're obviously doing so well with a culture where missing fathers are rampant, education levels are horrible, and violence is rampant. I'm sure arguing about privilege, microagressions, and BLM are going to fix those any day now.
EDIT: To more directly answer your point, while there are "haves" and "have not" groups in every society, the "haves" between societies tend to share common cultural characteristics. Conversely, the "have nots" tend to share common cultural characteristics as well. Perhaps the habits of the "haves" would be useful to the "have nots."
Yeah, and that cultural characteristic tends to be which group won a war and conquered a region.
Maybe true, but the blacks born in 1990 aren't poor because (a) their great-great-grandfather was a slave two hundred years ago. They're poor because (b) they didn't get an education and consequently couldn't get a job. Maybe (a) had a large influence on how (b) came to be, but that doesn't change the solution for the problem that (b) is.
Do the metrics you're using involve the socioeconomic disparities between the average black community and say the average white community?
Of course? That's how these things are usually measured. Median income, HS/college graduation rates, etc. Though I don't see why it should be limited to whites... comparing it to the average non-black US resident seems fine.
I think you underestimate the latent hatred for black people that there is in America and the fundamental impact this must have on black people ability to be 'successful'. I have only been in this country for five years but I can feel it slowly warping my mind. Little things like being stopped by the police while biking home from work at night and have them ask me "Have you seen any black people?" (several times!) Police reports sent to the university mailing list describing the perpetrator as "Other race". The friend who told a story about how the one black kid in her class at Yale go arrested for trying to hand in homework late at night. It just adds to up a feeling of the 'natural state of things'
To a large extent I can't even explain it, but I know that a small part of me instinctively reacts in a way when I see black people now that I simply didnt 5 years ago.
I would chalk it up to imagination if it wasnt so empirically obvious. Black people get (legally) shot for terrible crimes like driving and walking. It only makes sense if there is a general cultural undercurrent that sees black people as threatening/different/scary. The recent documentary I am not your negro was eye opening to me, it put words on a lot of things I had been thinking but been unable to express.
Yale professor: Why must we concentrate on colour, I have more in common with a black scholar than a white person who is against scholarship. (paraphrasing) Baldwin: It is hard to focus on writing when you are afraid of the world around you. The terror that if as a black person you stop being constantly wary you may die. (paraphrasing)
You are paying the price to be white. Baldwin wrote something you might find strangely insightful for how long ago it was written. (Sorry about the format, it's from copy and paste)
America became white-the people who, as they claim, "settled" the country became white-because of the necessity of denying the black presence, and justifying the black subjugation. No community can be based on such a principle--or, in other words, no community can be established on so genocidal a lie. White men-from Norway, for example, where they were "Norwegians" -became white by slaughtering the cattle poisoning the wells, torching the houses, massacring Native Americans, raping black women.
Just so does the white community, as a means of keeping itself white, elect, as they imagine, their political (!) representatives. No nation in the world, including England, is represented by so stunning a pantheon of the relentlessly mediocre. I will not name names I will leave that to you.
But this cowardice, this necessity of justifying a totally false identity and of justifying what must be called a genocidal history, has placed everyone now living into the hands of the most ignorant and powerful people the world has ever seen. And how did they get that way? By deciding that they were white. By opting for safety instead of life. By persuading themselves that a black child's life meant nothing compared with a white child's life. By abandoning their children to the things white men could buy. By informing their children that black women, black men, and black children had no human integrity that those who call themselves white were bound to respect. And in this debasement and definition of black people, debased and defined themselves.
And have brought humanity to the edge of oblivion: because they think
they are white. Because they think they are white, they do not dare con
front the ravage and the lie of their history. Because they think they are
white, they cannot allow themselves to be tormented by the suspicion that
all men are brothers, Because they think they are white, they are looking
for, or bombing into existence, stable population, cheerful natives, and
cheap labor. Because they think they are white, they believe, as even no
child believes, in the dream of safety. Because they think they are white,
however vociferous they may be and however multitudinous, they are as
speechless as Lot's wife-looking backward, changed into a pillar of salt.
Along those lines I highly recommend the book Devil in the Grove by Gilbert King. It's a non-fiction book about Thurgood Marshall's defense of four black men who were accused of raping a white woman in Florida in 1949. The amount of bravery Marshall showed throughout his career is humbling.
As a side note a major figure in the book is Willis McCall, the sheriff in the county where the men were tried. He routinely tortured false confessions out of innocent black people, murdered suspects, and used trumped up charges to literally turn people into slaves. He was sheriff in the county for 28 years until losing a bid for re-election in 1972. Slavery ended about 150 years ago (which really isn't that long) but until recently guys like McCall were in power throughout the country. "African American culture" (which is what, in this context anyway? Jazz?) isn't the problem.
On July 14 2017 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote: I think the conversation on privilege has reinforced my belief that it's so hard for many white people to accept, acknowledge, and address white privilege in large part because of their being tethered to the American meritocracy myth.
I'd argue a lot of people (not everyone) who thinks American meritocracy is a myth simply made poor decisions and are blaming the system for their own problems.
EDIT: That doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of improvements that can and should be made to the system.
On July 14 2017 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote: I think the conversation on privilege has reinforced my belief that it's so hard for many white people to accept, acknowledge, and address white privilege in large part because of their being tethered to the American meritocracy myth.
I'd argue a lot of people (not everyone) who thinks American meritocracy is a myth simply made poor decisions and are blaming the system for their own problems.
On July 14 2017 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote: I think the conversation on privilege has reinforced my belief that it's so hard for many white people to accept, acknowledge, and address white privilege in large part because of their being tethered to the American meritocracy myth.
I'd argue a lot of people (not everyone) who thinks American meritocracy is a myth simply made poor decisions and are blaming the system for their own problems.
Of course you would? But there's the Walton's, Trump, and the vast sea of white mediocrity and nepotism that flies in the face of the idea that you become the most successful by working the hardest/best.
On July 14 2017 01:52 WolfintheSheep wrote: [quote] Your point just sucks then.
North American culture is heavily influenced by Christian religion, which places social value on the same things. African-Americans are a part of North American culture. Therefore African-Americans are peaceful, QED or something.
I'd recommend not trying to broad-stroke the entirety of China, or Korea, or Japan, as a comparison point.
It's not even relevant to my point that Confucianism influenced all three cultures. I only mentioned Confucianism to justify why I grouped the three together for a point about what academics agree are Confucian values held in the culture of all three countries. Not to mention, my reference to Asia was a subpoint in a larger argument that you've totally ignored. Your posts have literally served no purpose other than to play overzealous and misguided "PC Police." Sorry you're butthurt that you got embarrassingly caught in your game of "Grandstand the Ignorant Ethnocentrist!"
The point is that Korea, Japan, and China share the cultural values of "work ethic, family values, nonviolence within communities, social stability." I didn't make cultural any claims beyond that, and you haven't even denied that those countries' cultures do share those traits. That claim isn't even remotely controversial, which is why your outrage is so silly and immature. All you've done is obstinately object that I dare try to group the three together for any cultural reason whatsoever, and tell me "your point just sucks then." You've added nothing of value to this discussion. Go troll somewhere else.
In fact, let me expand my "broad-stroke" and say that you can include Taiwan along with Korea, Japan, and China for the purposes of this discussion.
To quote the entire post I responded to:
Lots of cultures throughout the world have been as poor/poorer than the African American community and managed to raise themselves out of poverty. See Asia. The difference is that the Asians (despite their own issues with racism and other problems) have a culture of work ethic, family values, nonviolence within communities, social stability, etc.
Poverty doesn't necessarily lead to violence. Figuring out to change black culture to be less self-destructive would be a much more productive use of time than accusing whites of privilege and microaggressions.
I mean, you literally say here that the African American community can raise itself out of poverty because Asia did it. And Asians did it because they have a better culture than African Americans.
If you don't want to be called out on bad posts, don't make bad posts.
I was clearly referring to economically successful countries in Asia by the context. Which would imply... drum roll... Taiwan, Japan, Korea, China. Those countries share certain traits in their culture, which I listed explicitly and is a fact that you still haven't denied is true because common knowledge.
I'm done responding to a grandstanding troll. Come back if you want to have a real discussion. You're literally doing nothing but saying "You grouped Asia together" when it was clear from context and my following posts that it wasn't my attention. I've made several long posts with at least plausible logic and ideas going back several pages. That's a lot more effort than this troll sequence from you where you've done nothing but say "but but but you grouped 'Asia'", so maybe do some self-reflection before criticizing my posting.
Yes, so Taiwan, Japan, Korea and China are all nations, comparable to the United States.
Each of those countries have their own regions, varying in economic prosperity and poverty, with multiple mingling cultures that are fairly distinct from one another.
And yes, some of those cultural groups can be separated into "haves" and "have nots", and the latter could be comparable to African-Americans in the US.
So I don't see why you're comparing the African-American community to China. Or Japan. Or any sovereign nation.
Fine, continue to believe that an emphasis on education, family values, and non-violence in the community won't help the African-American community. After all, they're obviously doing so well with a culture where missing fathers are rampant, education levels are horrible, and violence is rampant. I'm sure arguing about privilege, microagressions, and BLM are going to fix those any day now.
EDIT: To more directly answer your point, while there are "haves" and "have not" groups in every society, the "haves" between societies tend to share common cultural characteristics. Conversely, the "have nots" tend to share common cultural characteristics as well. Perhaps the habits of the "haves" would be useful to the "have nots."
Yeah, and that cultural characteristic tends to be which group won a war and conquered a region.
Maybe true, but the blacks born in 1990 aren't poor because (a) their great-great-grandfather was a slave two hundred years ago. They're poor because (b) they didn't get an education and consequently couldn't get a job. Maybe (a) had a large influence on how (b) came to be, but that doesn't change the solution for the problem that (b) is.
Do the metrics you're using involve the socioeconomic disparities between the average black community and say the average white community?
Of course? That's how these things are usually measured. Median income, HS/college graduation rates, etc. Though I don't see why it should be limited to whites... comparing it to the average non-black US resident seems fine.
I think you underestimate the latent hatred for black people that there is in America and the fundamental impact this must have on black people ability to be 'successful'. I have only been in this country for five years but I can feel it slowly warping my mind. Little things like being stopped by the police while biking home from work at night and have them ask me "Have you seen any black people?" (several times!) Police reports sent to the university mailing list describing the perpetrator as "Other race". The friend who told a story about how the one black kid in her class at Yale go arrested for trying to hand in homework late at night. It just adds to up a feeling of the 'natural state of things'
To a large extent I can't even explain it, but I know that a small part of me instinctively reacts in a way when I see black people now that I simply didnt 5 years ago.
I would chalk it up to imagination if it wasnt so empirically obvious. Black people get (legally) shot for terrible crimes like driving and walking. It only makes sense if there is a general cultural undercurrent that sees black people as threatening/different/scary. The recent documentary I am not your negro was eye opening to me, it put words on a lot of things I had been thinking but been unable to express.
Yale professor: Why must we concentrate on colour, I have more in common with a black scholar than a white person who is against scholarship. (paraphrasing) Baldwin: It is hard to focus on writing when you are afraid of the world around you. The terror that if as a black person you stop being constantly wary you may die. (paraphrasing)
Rural areas you're probably right.
In big cities though, my anecdotal experience makes me lean towards the belief that the prejudice is less "because you're black" and more "because blacks are associated with a lot of socially undesirable behaviors." In my anecdotal experience living in downtown Chicago, experiences of blacks with severe mental illness (yelling to themselves, etc.), drug abuse, drug deals on the subway, and more aren't uncommon. In addition to the dangerous stuff, there's things like blasting music on a boombox on the train, confrontations between groups of young black men, public intoxication, etc.
And I live in one of the safest, most affluent neighborhoods in the city. These are just the things I just see on/near the subway. I would say 90%+ of blacks I encounter seem like perfectly fine people, but the much higher rate of bad apples among them makes me (rationally) more cautious around them as a group.
Is this fair to most of the black community? Not at all. But, at the same time, it's a rational defense mechanism on my part.
The point of this is, people are going to react the way that you and I are as long as the AA community has a reputation (fair or not) for violence and crime. The way to wash away that reputation is going to start with kids staying in school and out of trouble to become productive and socioeconomically successful members of society. It's not going to happen on the current course of racial relations where all the focus is on the symptoms of the deeper problems in the AA community.
Applying your argument to the opioid crisis, instead of putting money into treatment and cracking down on distribution we should just focus on reforming white culture, which encourages self-medication through substance abuse.
This is nonsense.
To the extent there are cultural issues in various communities which contribute to undesirable socioeconomic outcomes, those issues can be handled by the people in such communities who have firsthand knowledge and experience with what they are dealing with. In the meantime the rest of society can work to remove institutional factors contributing to such outcomes by for example supporting affirmative action for members of historically disadvantaged groups, outlawing the advertisement of opioids directly to the public, etc.
What made you think applying a solution intended to handle generational poverty and violence would be well-suited for fixing a short-term drug problem in the first place? Of course different problems require different solutions.
If rural whites fall into generational poverty, then yes, a similar solution might be the right direction to go.
You can literally do this for anything. "Free markets work really well in the retail industry." "Therefore, we should build our utility (electric, gas, cable) providers around free markets." Obviously that doesn't work out.
For one, the opioid crisis is due in part to generational poverty and violence.
For another, it sounds like you are saying that the uniform solution for generational poverty and violence is to be encouraged to pursue "white culture," rather than addressing the institutional causes of generational poverty and violence. I'm not the one advocating for a one-size-fits-all solution... I even listed two distinct methods for addressing racial disparities and the opioid crisis respectively in my post you quoted.
On July 14 2017 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote: I think the conversation on privilege has reinforced my belief that it's so hard for many white people to accept, acknowledge, and address white privilege in large part because of their being tethered to the American meritocracy myth.
I'd argue a lot of people (not everyone) who thinks American meritocracy is a myth simply made poor decisions and are blaming the system for their own problems.
Check statistics for social mobility and compare it to the rest of the first world. There is your answer to meritocracy in the US.
On July 14 2017 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote: I think the conversation on privilege has reinforced my belief that it's so hard for many white people to accept, acknowledge, and address white privilege in large part because of their being tethered to the American meritocracy myth.
I'd argue a lot of people (not everyone) who thinks American meritocracy is a myth simply made poor decisions and are blaming the system for their own problems.
really curious, what is your background?
Born into money? Born poor? how did you grow up?
My dad was a unionized truck driver. My mom was a stay-at-home mom. We grew up in middle class suburb and I have two siblings.
On July 14 2017 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote: I think the conversation on privilege has reinforced my belief that it's so hard for many white people to accept, acknowledge, and address white privilege in large part because of their being tethered to the American meritocracy myth.
I'd argue a lot of people (not everyone) who thinks American meritocracy is a myth simply made poor decisions and are blaming the system for their own problems.
really curious, what is your background?
Born into money? Born poor? how did you grow up?
My dad was a unionized truck driver. My mom was a stay-at-home mom. We grew up in middle class suburb and I have two siblings.
The hell is a stay-at-home mom?
Just kidding, but you know many unions, including the AFL regularly excluded black members post segregation? Not because they weren't good workers, but because they were black.
It still happens now, but it's thinly veiled in nepotism.
On July 14 2017 05:53 KlaCkoN wrote: Yale professor: Why must we concentrate on colour, I have more in common with a black scholar than a white person who is against scholarship. (paraphrasing) Baldwin: It is hard to focus on writing when you are afraid of the world around you. The terror that if as a black person you stop being constantly wary you may die. (paraphrasing)
I feel like these are very complimentary statements, and there is no conflict between the two perspectives. The focus on skin colour is absurd at some level considering it constitutes only a small part of what it means to be human, but that doesn't make it so that skin colour can't affect your perception/experience of the world in at least some way.
In the same sense as what the Yale professor said, I feel like I have a lot more in common with poor black people than I do with rich white people. I mean, here in Europe I've had a security guard in a store follow me around while I was looking to buy a new TV while I was wearing old baggy pants and a worn-out t-shirt with holes in it. It's a very uncomfortable feeling, and I was reminded of it when one of the four or so black people that I've known in my life told me he notices old ladies grabbing their purses when he walks by them in the train. I'd be willing to bet, though, that a rich black person dressed in a fine suit is less likely to be followed around like that than I was at the time.
However, that doesn't take away from the notion there's a lot more pressure points where black people are being oppressed. In another example, I was once picked up by a police officer in the US in the middle of the night for what essentially came down to trespassing. I was also carrying drugs, but he didn't search my bag or anything. I just showed my ID, and he was perfectly friendly and gave me a ride back to town. I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to be black while doing that same thing. I might still be in jail.
On July 14 2017 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote: I think the conversation on privilege has reinforced my belief that it's so hard for many white people to accept, acknowledge, and address white privilege in large part because of their being tethered to the American meritocracy myth.
I'd argue a lot of people (not everyone) who thinks American meritocracy is a myth simply made poor decisions and are blaming the system for their own problems.
really curious, what is your background?
Born into money? Born poor? how did you grow up?
My dad was a unionized truck driver. My mom was a stay-at-home mom. We grew up in middle class suburb and I have two siblings.
It is so weird that we have such a similar background (dad is unionized dock worker, mom is stay at home, I have one sister) and yet we have such DIFFERENT views on how the world works. Where did you grow up? Do you feel the people around you have the same attitude as you?
Would you say you had a particularly difficult life? Did your parents help with student loans? Scared of the cops? Ever worried about a job interview because you are white? Again, just curious
On July 14 2017 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote: I think the conversation on privilege has reinforced my belief that it's so hard for many white people to accept, acknowledge, and address white privilege in large part because of their being tethered to the American meritocracy myth.
I'd argue a lot of people (not everyone) who thinks American meritocracy is a myth simply made poor decisions and are blaming the system for their own problems.
EDIT: That doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of improvements that can and should be made to the system.
You know there's been a bunch of orthodox economics research coming out in the last couple years showing American social mobilty is much lower than previously thought and decreasing right?
It would certainly be helpful to the POC cause if over 80% of the rich and successful black men didn't publicly state their priorities as:
1) shake dat ass / we don't love dem hoes (...goes on to marry a white woman) 2) boom boom, glock, shoot niggaz 3) diamond rimz ... dolla dolla
For every DeGrasse or Freeman out there, a dozen frothing morons are promoting what seems like the most toxic and pointless lifestyle possible - the pursuit of which is sure to land you in jail or dead.
I don't see much public resistance to this movement. There's a distinctive difference between black celebrity and all other types of celebrity and if that's another racist observation I just don't know why even have this debate. Are those good role models?
When white people do trap, at least they talk about suicide via alcohol or something adorably degenerate. And when Asians do trap it's just fun. Why?
On July 14 2017 07:05 Kickboxer wrote: It would certainly be helpful to the POC cause if over 80% of the rich and successful black men didn't publicly state their priorities as:
1) shake dat ass / we don't love dem hoes (...goes on to marry a white woman) 2) boom boom, glock, shoot niggaz 3) diamond rimz ... dolla dolla
For every DeGrasse or Freeman out there, a dozen frothing morons are promoting what seems like the most toxic and pointless lifestyle possible - the pursuit of which is sure to land you in jail or dead.
I don't see much public resistance to this movement. There's a distinctive difference between black celebrity and all other types of celebrity and if that's another racist observation I just don't know why even have this debate. Are those good role models?
When white people do trap, at least they talk about suicide via alcohol or something adorably degenerate. And when Asians do trap it's just fun. Why?
I laughed out loud. Thank you for bringing humor to the discussion.
On July 14 2017 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote: I think the conversation on privilege has reinforced my belief that it's so hard for many white people to accept, acknowledge, and address white privilege in large part because of their being tethered to the American meritocracy myth.
I'd argue a lot of people (not everyone) who thinks American meritocracy is a myth simply made poor decisions and are blaming the system for their own problems.
Check statistics for social mobility and compare it to the rest of the first world. There is your answer to meritocracy in the US.
The world isn't split into "meritocracies" and "non-meritocracies." Nor is only the world's purest meritocracy the only meritocracy.
If you are born in the US in, say, the 20th percentile or above, then you can reliably rise to 70th or 80th percentile income by your mid-30s. Most people don't, but most people don't spend as much time on their schoolwork and productive extracurricular activities as they could/should either. I define that as a rough meritocracy. Of course, it can always be improved.
I'm making these numbers up, but I'm confident enough that they're roughly true based on personal experience.
Some people are truly unfortunate and it's very difficult to climb the socioeconomic ladder for them due to the situation they were placed in. That's sad, and worth trying to fix as best as we can.
It is so weird that we have such a similar background (dad is unionized dock worker, mom is stay at home, I have one sister) and yet we have such DIFFERENT views on how the world works. Where did you grow up? Do you feel the people around you have the same attitude as you?
Would you say you had a particularly difficult life? Did your parents help with student loans? Scared of the cops? Ever worried about a job interview because you are white? Again, just curious
I grew up in exurban Chicago essentially. It became more developed as I got older. My (public) high school had students from several towns, which consisted of a diverse and fairly dangerous area, an area of primarily lower middle class whites, and an area of highly affluent whites. The people I still talk mostly have the same attitude I do. If I had to guess, most the people I grew up with probably don't have the same general attitudes that I do.
My mom worked at a $10/hr job at a university when I got older that allowed me to get free tuition at a mediocre university (along with my siblings). She lost her job my junior year of college, and I had to take out about $25,000 in student loans total. I accepted a teaching assistantship when I enrolled in a PhD program (Statistics) that waived my graduate school tuition and paid me a $15-20k annual living stipend, so no loans from grad school.
My parents paid for my living expenses in college, but I held a job, was an athlete, was on the debate team, and lived modestly. Even if they didn't though, the extra $20-30k in loans would not significantly impact my financial situation today given my income.
On July 14 2017 07:05 Kickboxer wrote: It would certainly be helpful to the POC cause if over 80% of the rich and successful black men didn't publicly state their priorities as:
1) shake dat ass / we don't love dem hoes (...goes on to marry a white woman) 2) boom boom, glock, shoot niggaz 3) diamond rimz ... dolla dolla
For every DeGrasse or Freeman out there, a dozen frothing morons are promoting what seems like the most toxic and pointless lifestyle possible - the pursuit of which is sure to land you in jail or dead.
I don't see much public resistance to this movement. There's a distinctive difference between black celebrity and all other types of celebrity and if that's another racist observation I just don't know why even have this debate. Are those good role models?
When white people do trap, at least they talk about suicide via alcohol or something adorably degenerate. And when Asians do trap it's just fun. Why?
lol. I mean it might be black faces, but it's really "white culture", it's not black people at the top of the labels that mass market the segment (it's not 80%) of rap that you're talking about.
I mean a lot of this has to do with people not understanding what they are listening to.
One that comes to mind is Kendrick Lamar's "Swimming Pools (Drank)" People who don't actually listen to the song presume he's promoting alcoholism and wasteful spending. It's actually the opposite.
We all know Kendrick Lamar and Earl Sweatshirt etc. are genius level poets but Bobby Shmurda and his idiotic host of real-life memes have nothing to do with white execs or culture.
It's just a special type of cancer that might be a very serious problem.
A Republican donor and operative from Chicago's North Shore who said he had tried to obtain Hillary Clinton's missing emails from Russian hackers killed himself in a Minnesota hotel room days after talking to the Wall Street Journal about his efforts, public records show.
In a room at a Rochester hotel used almost exclusively by Mayo Clinic patients and relatives, Peter W. Smith, 81, left a carefully prepared file of documents, which includes a statement police called a suicide note in which he said he was in ill health and a life insurance policy was expiring.
Days earlier, the financier from suburban Lake Forest gave an interview to the Journal about his quest, and it published stories about his efforts beginning in late June. The Journal also reported it had seen emails written by Smith showing his team considered retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn, then a top adviser to Republican Donald Trump's campaign, as an ally. Flynn briefly was President Trump's national security adviser and resigned after it was determined he had failed to disclose contacts with Russia.
At the time, the newspaper reported Smith's May 14 death came about 10 days after he granted the interview. Mystery shrouded how and where he had died, but the lead reporter on the stories said on a podcast he had no reason to believe the death was the result of foul play and that Smith likely had died of natural causes.
On July 14 2017 07:26 Kickboxer wrote: We all know Kendrick Lamar and Earl Sweatshirt etc. are genius level poets but Bobby Shmurda and his idiotic host of real-life memes have nothing to do with white execs or culture.
It's just a special type of cancer that might be a very serious problem.
Like video games that make white males shoot up random people in schools, theaters, and churches? Or maybe there's more to it than that?
Also you realize he was signed to Epic after making the song "Hot Nigga"? So it's white people promoting and making the top money off of the stuff you find problematic. They just put a black face on it and so you blame the faces, instead of the money men.
EPT
