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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-15 20:54:51
June 15 2017 20:49 GMT
#157361
Trump has now sent out his unhinged Tweets confirming that he was OFFICIALLY under investigation for obstruction of justice 12 hours earlier than I predicted. Can we settle this argument now Danglars et al? Trump is officially under investigation for obstruction of justice.

EDIT: the "but anonymous" defense against terrible Trump stories needs to be put to bed for good. Trump always confirms the "but anonymous" stories in angry tweets within 48 hours or less.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 15 2017 22:09 GMT
#157362
Not to mention anonymous sources are nothing new, and speaking on condition of anonymity is how you get information from people who don't feel safe sharing it any other way.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
June 15 2017 22:17 GMT
#157363
Trump is actually the biggest leaker in his Administration.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15661 Posts
June 15 2017 22:31 GMT
#157364
These recent reports of Sessions' dinner dates are looking well timed. If the IC can point a gun loaded with evidence at Sessions' temple, I think Trump is toast. Just a matter of if they can turn Sessions.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
June 15 2017 23:10 GMT
#157365
Have a feeling Trump went too far in firing Comey. The IC is getting revenge.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 15 2017 23:12 GMT
#157366
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
crms
Profile Joined February 2010
United States11933 Posts
June 15 2017 23:15 GMT
#157367
back on crooked hillary, that's how you know the investigation is going places.
http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-15 23:29:10
June 15 2017 23:19 GMT
#157368
The Sessions issue was caused by Sessions. I don't know why he didn't provide full details of his meetings, but I feel that he just assumed the senate wouldn't call him on it.

Of course it doesn't help Sessions that Trump has done nothing to make them trust him and attacked almost every government agency under his control. Fuck, a lot of these leaks are likely coming from his staff.

Edit: Glad we are back to crooked Hillary.



Pence must now fire his attorney and hire a new one. Or resign for collusion with Comey through his attorney.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 15 2017 23:31 GMT
#157369
An American lobbyist for Russian interests who helped craft an important foreign policy speech for Donald Trump has confirmed that he attended two dinners hosted by Jeff Sessions during the 2016 campaign, apparently contradicting the attorney general’s sworn testimony given this week.

Sessions testified under oath on Tuesday that he did not believe he had any contacts with lobbyists working for Russian interests over the course of Trump’s campaign. But Richard Burt, a former ambassador to Germany during the Reagan administration, who has represented Russian interests in Washington, told the Guardian that he could confirm previous media reports that stated he had contacts with Sessions at the time.

“I did attend two dinners with groups of former Republican foreign policy officials and Senator Sessions,” Burt said.

Asked whether Sessions was unfamiliar with Burt’s role as a lobbyist for Russian interests – a fact that is disclosed in public records – or had any reason to be confused about the issue, Burt told the Guardian that he did not know.

Several media reports published before Trump’s election in November noted that Burt advised then candidate Trump on his first major foreign policy speech, a role that brought him into contact with Sessions personally.

Burt, who previously served on the advisory board of Alfa Capital Partners, a private equity fund where Russia’s Alfa Bank was an investor and last year was lobbying on behalf of a pipeline company that is now controlled by Gazprom, Russia’s state-controlled energy conglomerate, first told Politico in October that he had been invited to two dinners that were hosted by Sessions last summer, at the height of the presidential campaign.

Sessions, a former senator for Alabama who was chairman of the Trump campaign’s national security committee, reportedly invited Burt so that he could discuss issues of national security and foreign policy.

When John McCain, the Republican senator from Arizona who is a frequent critic of Trump and Russian president Vladimir Putin, asked Sessions in a hearing this week before the Senate intelligence committee about whether the attorney general had ever had “any contacts with any representative, including any American lobbyist or agent of any Russian company” during the 2016 campaign, Sessions said he did not.

“I don’t believe so,” Sessions said.

Other outlets, including the New Yorker magazine and Reuters, also reported last year that Burt had contributed his views to Trump’s speech. When NPR interviewed Burt in May 2016 about the talk, he said he was “asked to provide a draft for that speech, and parts of that draft survived into the final [version]”.

The speech, delivered on 27 April 2016 at the Mayflower Hotel, was attended by Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak and is now at the heart of new questions about Sessions’ personal dealings with Russian officials. Sessions recused himself from oversight of the FBI’s investigation into possible collusion between the Kremlin and the Trump campaign in March after it emerged that he held two undisclosed meetings with the Russian ambassador last year.

In his explosive testimony before Congress earlier this month, former FBI director James Comey, who was fired by Trump, suggested that he had known that Sessions would eventually have to recuse himself from the Russia probe, but declined to explain the details in public.

Questions directed at Sessions by lawmakers days later – after they had privately been briefed by Comey – suggested it related to a third alleged encounter with Kislyak that had not been disclosed, this time at the Mayflower Hotel speech. In his confirmation hearing, Sessions had told lawmakers under oath that he had never had communication with Russian officials.

This week, in the latest hearing, Sessions said he may have “possibly” had an “encounter” with the Russian ambassador during a reception at the Mayflower, but could not recall any specific conversations.

The speech was hosted by the Center for the National Interest, a Washington thinktank. Burt sits on the group’s board of directors.

While Burt has not played a central role in the FBI and congressional investigation, Sessions’ response about his dealings with American lobbyists – which appears to contradict previous reports that Burt and Sessions communicated during the campaign – could invite more scrutiny of the attorney general’s testimony.

It is also possible that Sessions was not fully aware of Burt’s lobbying history, although Burt’s affiliation with Russian interests is fairly well known in Washington circles.

The former ambassador is managing director of the Europe and Eurasia practice at McLarty Associates. In that role, he’s served as a lobbyist for the New European Pipeline AG, the company behind Nord Stream II. At the time the work started, Gazprom, the Russian state-owned oil company, owned a 50% stake, but it now owns the entire entity. The pipeline, which is seen as making Europe more dependent on Russian energy exports, was opposed by the Obama administration.

Burt also serves on the board of Deutsche Bank’s closed-end fund group, according to his online biography.

The former ambassador and lobbyist appears to have recently sought to downplay his role in helping Trump to formulate the Mayflower speech, telling the Daily Beast earlier this year that he had transmitted his counsel through a third party intermediary.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
June 15 2017 23:34 GMT
#157370
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 15 2017 23:36 GMT
#157371
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
rageprotosscheesy
Profile Joined June 2017
36 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-15 23:36:53
June 15 2017 23:36 GMT
#157372
On June 16 2017 08:19 Plansix wrote:Of course it doesn't help Sessions that Trump has done nothing to make them trust him and attacked almost every government agency under his control. Fuck, a lot of these leaks are likely coming from his staff.


Its funny because a lot of the leaks the administration is whining about are clearly done because:

- The people they're working under are pretty terrible. Terrible not in a "I don't like your politics" way but terrible in a "jesus christ, do I have to work overtime again because you're so useless" way. Sessions, despite being AG, has gone out of the way to make himself look like a complete tool for reasons completely unrelated to policy. Trump still has a billion vacancies he needs to fill but just doesn't care/can't find enough yes men that will pledge loyalty. All state departments are constantly contradicting each other or confirming leaks, making the work of the typical civil servant a complete headache.

- People in the administration clearly, clearly don't like each other. I have no doubt from the many leaks regarding Bannon and Kushner come from their respective factions.

The leaks wouldn't happen if people were actually happy with their job.

On June 16 2017 08:19 Plansix wrote:
The Sessions issue was caused by Sessions. I don't know why he didn't provide full details of his meetings, but I feel that he just assumed the senate wouldn't call him on it.

Of course it doesn't help Sessions that Trump has done nothing to make them trust him and attacked almost every government agency under his control. Fuck, a lot of these leaks are likely coming from his staff.

Edit: Glad we are back to crooked Hillary.

https://twitter.com/AshleyRParker/status/875484989890154499

Pence must now fire his attorney and hire a new one. Or resign for collusion with Comey through his attorney.


That's the problem with the whole "Mueller is too close to Comey" argument. Really, all seriously qualified lawyers and investigators with some degree of understanding of government processes know each other.

The best you can do is find someone qualified but reputable enough that his personal judgement won't be clouded by his personal relationships.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
June 15 2017 23:36 GMT
#157373
On June 16 2017 01:58 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 00:10 Danglars wrote:
On June 15 2017 19:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On June 15 2017 12:11 Danglars wrote:
On June 15 2017 09:26 biology]major wrote:
On June 15 2017 09:17 Danglars wrote:
On June 15 2017 08:54 biology]major wrote:
That's the thing, we have an idiot president who is going out of his way to out do his own idiocy at every turn and a bureaucracy that is invested in bringing him down. They are both happening simultaneously, and this time, I don't give a damn if the deepstate or the boogeyman takes trump down. We get pence, a much more polished politician, and we already have Gorsuch. Tax reform, healthcare are dependent on congress anyways so Trump is a net negative to the USA as of right now.

So you would count as allies a bureaucracy gunning to depose its boss because you favor the outcome of Trump leaving office? I'm a bit horrified at that application of the ends justify the means. We also get an emboldened 4th branch that provably can claim a scalp that elected officials cannot ... which is a far greater threat to the Republic and democracy than you realize.


Trump could have played his hand as 45 a million times better, won over both democrats and republicans, and made real change. He has all branches of government on his side. Instead he squanders an opportunity, disgraces the office with his constant lies and hypocrisy, and has not a single shred of decency. Why would I feel sorry for this buffoon? He was given a chance of a lifetime, and has so far been a crooked mess. Sad!

I wouldn't even mind if he was just bad at his job, it's his blatant immorality that irks me. Sure he might not have done anything illegal, but crooked trump and crooked hillary are both cut from same cloth. One has the temperament of a child and the other a grown woman.

I'm with DEB & xDaunt on that one. He couldn't have had the bureaucracy on his side; he was elected to shake it up and his entire brash character was aimed at upsetting the established order of the agencies. It should also be clear that his campaign promise of a temporary travel ban did not put the courts on his side; who have so much unrestrained activism that they think foreign policy is under judicial purview (but we've probably covered that one enough in this thread already). He took TONS of shots at establishment Republicans before joining hands on this and that, so you could also make the argument that the legislature was against him from the start, though it's so fractionally divided anyways that it's of weaker significance. No, no, and no, impossible!

And don't flee to "feel sorry," I neither implied it nor ask it. I say instead you are foolish to join a dangerous party to unseat Trump. Do you have anything to say about the main point of the post you quoted?

You know, reading you, sometimes I wonder : what will it take for you to admit that Trump is a disgraceful, dishonest incompetent fool that ridicules his function and that this administration is a giant shitshow?

To paraphrase Cooper, at that point it looks like Trump could go to your place and take a dump on your desk, you would defend him.

I voted for a guy in France in 2012 who ended up being a pathetically weak, spineless president. Well I fucked it up. He was from my party, but he and his government were shit, and I won't vote for the PS until his goons have been cleared up because they clearly can't run a country. Is it too much cognitive dissonance for you to endure to admit your guy is a fucking disaster?

Maybe you missed when I've routinely criticized Trump on issues where we disagree. It still doesn't excuse acting like court jesters inventing laws and peddling conspiracy theories when he can be legitimately criticized on any number of fronts from AHCA to twitter to inappropriate conversation to foreign policy to going overboard on fake news. The search function is open to you want to correct your understanding of my posting history.


you know dangles i am kind of surprised you and dauntless are so in the hole on this one. if i may, remember the discussion around the ferguson shooting with michael brown? and how dauntless said things like "maybe cops shouldnt be shooting people in various situations, but michael brown is not the hill you outraged people want to die on?" isn't this an analogous case? maybe theres some argument both ways about foreign policy and leaks and executive privilege and the ability to appoint agency executives. but Trump is still a fucking crook with no integrity who has been stealing and fucking people over his whole life. he's the opposite of all the small town american values you always go on about. when do you just wash your hands and say, "the democrats are acting hysterical but trump is still garbage" i just don't see the point in wasting so much energy to defend him

It's a debate thread and Trump's done one or two things I like. He's also exposed a threat to democracy for any future Republican president because I reject the mealy mouthed defenders "but Trump's so bad yada yada it wouldn't happen again with someone else trust us." I see it as a very big-picture threat to citizen democracy. Tyranny of the fourth branch is in vogue because Trump is deservedly low in the polls and people want spectacularly stupid ways out. I'm not going to waste a ton of time on shitposter arguments, but I do see it as stimulating to judge the good and the bad as they come.

You'd have to ask xDaunt on his Ferguson perspective.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-15 23:39:32
June 15 2017 23:38 GMT
#157374
On June 16 2017 01:58 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 00:10 Danglars wrote:
On June 15 2017 19:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On June 15 2017 12:11 Danglars wrote:
On June 15 2017 09:26 biology]major wrote:
On June 15 2017 09:17 Danglars wrote:
On June 15 2017 08:54 biology]major wrote:
That's the thing, we have an idiot president who is going out of his way to out do his own idiocy at every turn and a bureaucracy that is invested in bringing him down. They are both happening simultaneously, and this time, I don't give a damn if the deepstate or the boogeyman takes trump down. We get pence, a much more polished politician, and we already have Gorsuch. Tax reform, healthcare are dependent on congress anyways so Trump is a net negative to the USA as of right now.

So you would count as allies a bureaucracy gunning to depose its boss because you favor the outcome of Trump leaving office? I'm a bit horrified at that application of the ends justify the means. We also get an emboldened 4th branch that provably can claim a scalp that elected officials cannot ... which is a far greater threat to the Republic and democracy than you realize.


Trump could have played his hand as 45 a million times better, won over both democrats and republicans, and made real change. He has all branches of government on his side. Instead he squanders an opportunity, disgraces the office with his constant lies and hypocrisy, and has not a single shred of decency. Why would I feel sorry for this buffoon? He was given a chance of a lifetime, and has so far been a crooked mess. Sad!

I wouldn't even mind if he was just bad at his job, it's his blatant immorality that irks me. Sure he might not have done anything illegal, but crooked trump and crooked hillary are both cut from same cloth. One has the temperament of a child and the other a grown woman.

I'm with DEB & xDaunt on that one. He couldn't have had the bureaucracy on his side; he was elected to shake it up and his entire brash character was aimed at upsetting the established order of the agencies. It should also be clear that his campaign promise of a temporary travel ban did not put the courts on his side; who have so much unrestrained activism that they think foreign policy is under judicial purview (but we've probably covered that one enough in this thread already). He took TONS of shots at establishment Republicans before joining hands on this and that, so you could also make the argument that the legislature was against him from the start, though it's so fractionally divided anyways that it's of weaker significance. No, no, and no, impossible!

And don't flee to "feel sorry," I neither implied it nor ask it. I say instead you are foolish to join a dangerous party to unseat Trump. Do you have anything to say about the main point of the post you quoted?

You know, reading you, sometimes I wonder : what will it take for you to admit that Trump is a disgraceful, dishonest incompetent fool that ridicules his function and that this administration is a giant shitshow?

To paraphrase Cooper, at that point it looks like Trump could go to your place and take a dump on your desk, you would defend him.

I voted for a guy in France in 2012 who ended up being a pathetically weak, spineless president. Well I fucked it up. He was from my party, but he and his government were shit, and I won't vote for the PS until his goons have been cleared up because they clearly can't run a country. Is it too much cognitive dissonance for you to endure to admit your guy is a fucking disaster?

Maybe you missed when I've routinely criticized Trump on issues where we disagree. It still doesn't excuse acting like court jesters inventing laws and peddling conspiracy theories when he can be legitimately criticized on any number of fronts from AHCA to twitter to inappropriate conversation to foreign policy to going overboard on fake news. The search function is open to you want to correct your understanding of my posting history.


you know dangles i am kind of surprised you and dauntless are so in the hole on this one. if i may, remember the discussion around the ferguson shooting with michael brown? and how dauntless said things like "maybe cops shouldnt be shooting people in various situations, but michael brown is not the hill you outraged people want to die on?" isn't this an analogous case? maybe theres some argument both ways about foreign policy and leaks and executive privilege and the ability to appoint agency executives. but Trump is still a fucking crook with no integrity who has been stealing and fucking people over his whole life. he's the opposite of all the small town american values you always go on about. when do you just wash your hands and say, "the democrats are acting hysterical but trump is still garbage" i just don't see the point in wasting so much energy to defend him

What hill am I dying on? I've never argued that Trump is some paragon of virtue, and I've been quite candid about his numerous shortcomings. Of all posters, you are one of the best positioned to understand my overall argument that it's counterproductive to attack Trump over all of the superfluous bullshit (like this Russia crap and obstruction of justice crap) when there's ample, legitimate avenues of attack. This is particularly true when allegations of criminal and impeachable conduct are being so frivolously thrown around.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 15 2017 23:42 GMT
#157375
On June 16 2017 08:36 rageprotosscheesy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 08:19 Plansix wrote:Of course it doesn't help Sessions that Trump has done nothing to make them trust him and attacked almost every government agency under his control. Fuck, a lot of these leaks are likely coming from his staff.


Its funny because a lot of the leaks the administration is whining about are clearly done because:

- The people they're working under are pretty terrible. Terrible not in a "I don't like your politics" way but terrible in a "jesus christ, do I have to work overtime again because you're so useless" way. Sessions, despite being AG, has gone out of the way to make himself look like a complete tool for reasons completely unrelated to policy. Trump still has a billion vacancies he needs to fill but just doesn't care/can't find enough yes men that will pledge loyalty. All state departments are constantly contradicting each other or confirming leaks, making the work of the typical civil servant a complete headache.

- People in the administration clearly, clearly don't like each other. I have no doubt from the many leaks regarding Bannon and Kushner come from their respective factions.

The leaks wouldn't happen if people were actually happy with their job.

Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 08:19 Plansix wrote:
The Sessions issue was caused by Sessions. I don't know why he didn't provide full details of his meetings, but I feel that he just assumed the senate wouldn't call him on it.

Of course it doesn't help Sessions that Trump has done nothing to make them trust him and attacked almost every government agency under his control. Fuck, a lot of these leaks are likely coming from his staff.

Edit: Glad we are back to crooked Hillary.

https://twitter.com/AshleyRParker/status/875484989890154499

Pence must now fire his attorney and hire a new one. Or resign for collusion with Comey through his attorney.


That's the problem with the whole "Mueller is too close to Comey" argument. Really, all seriously qualified lawyers and investigators with some degree of understanding of government processes know each other.

The best you can do is find someone qualified but reputable enough that his personal judgement won't be clouded by his personal relationships.

Trump's style of creating an office where people fight over his approval worked in the buisness world, but seems to have some serious short comings in the White House. Specifically when it comes to keeping people from leaking shit to harm their perceived rivals.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
June 15 2017 23:42 GMT
#157376
On June 16 2017 05:49 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Trump has now sent out his unhinged Tweets confirming that he was OFFICIALLY under investigation for obstruction of justice 12 hours earlier than I predicted. Can we settle this argument now Danglars et al? Trump is officially under investigation for obstruction of justice.

EDIT: the "but anonymous" defense against terrible Trump stories needs to be put to bed for good. Trump always confirms the "but anonymous" stories in angry tweets within 48 hours or less.

Clearly grounds to skip the confirmation part. If you want to speculate, have at it. I'm for letting the investigation continue, probably with a recused Mueller for obstruction investigations too close to Comey. He's fine for possibly compromised Trump campaign workers and other related matters.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 15 2017 23:46 GMT
#157377
I wouldn't hold my breath on that recusal. Congress likes Mueller and so does the Justice department. Newt liked him before it was cool to dislike him. It is going to take more than Trump's allies saying Mueller is biased to turn the public against him.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 15 2017 23:47 GMT
#157378
On June 16 2017 08:42 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2017 05:49 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Trump has now sent out his unhinged Tweets confirming that he was OFFICIALLY under investigation for obstruction of justice 12 hours earlier than I predicted. Can we settle this argument now Danglars et al? Trump is officially under investigation for obstruction of justice.

EDIT: the "but anonymous" defense against terrible Trump stories needs to be put to bed for good. Trump always confirms the "but anonymous" stories in angry tweets within 48 hours or less.

Clearly grounds to skip the confirmation part. If you want to speculate, have at it. I'm for letting the investigation continue, probably with a recused Mueller for obstruction investigations too close to Comey. He's fine for possibly compromised Trump campaign workers and other related matters.

You've yet to adequately explain why Mueller isn't actually the best person for the job, without providing reasons that apply doubly or triply strong to Trump himself.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15661 Posts
June 15 2017 23:50 GMT
#157379
On June 16 2017 08:34 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
https://twitter.com/GlennKesslerWP/status/875490751370678273

Forgive my shit post:
+ Show Spoiler +
when I saw this, I couldn't help but stupidly giggle at the thought of Jared having a bus [image loading]

Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21638 Posts
June 15 2017 23:50 GMT
#157380
On June 16 2017 08:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/875495612225134594

The guys logic is correct to me. Your investigation the Trump campaign, if you find anything at all your going to investigate if the head of the campaign knew about it.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
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