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Norway28895 Posts
"human beings have evolved over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but with god guiding the process. "That does not say anything about how god guided the process. If I believed that god created the framework for evolution and then it happened "naturally" based on this framework, I would go for this option, even if I 100% believe in evolution.
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On January 13 2014 02:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:
"human beings have evolved over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but with god guiding the process. "That does not say anything about how god guided the process.
As true as that maybe, it still is formulated in a way I would tend to associate with someone into ID or creationism first.
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On January 12 2014 21:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 16:08 IgnE wrote:![[image loading]](http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/mtmhrggv0u278tchtddptw.gif) Evolution still deeply unpopular among Americans. Dismissed by 4 in 10 as elitist malarkey. Politicians shift towards promoting Intelligent Design in public schools. Fascinating to think that the world's science powerhouse, that has brought us iPhones, space shuttles and sent men on the moon has only 15% of its population really believing in science, and 45% of its population holding on absolutely medieval beliefs. I wouldn't like being a 35th century's archeologist trying to understand that country in the XXth and XXIst century. It's going to be a giant mindfuck for future observers.
You do realize you can cherry pick your beliefs, right? Someone who's religious can understand the science perfectly fine but choose not to roll with that in their personal lives.
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On January 12 2014 14:46 ziggurat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 12:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 12 2014 12:10 sam!zdat wrote:On January 12 2014 10:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 12 2014 06:02 sam!zdat wrote:
edit: also, while I'm thinking about it, I want to address something from a couple of weeks ago. after some idiot banned me, most of the responses to me were based on mocking me for beliefs I do not hold (the main way that people respond to me here). I just want to put forth that I believe 100 percent in private property and that I think one of the main problems with our society today is that there is very little private property. a joint stock corporation is not private property, it is a form of absentee landlordism, which is the antithesis of private property. late capitalism is NOT a system based on private property, there is basically no private property in the capitalist system today. equities are not private property. your mortgaged house is not private property. securities are not private property. anyone who doesn't understand this is an idiot and needs to go read their adam smith What do you suppose would be the costs and benefits associated with a system based on "real" private property vs "absentee landordism"? Personally I can't imagine returning to "real" private property in the modern world. We'd just lose too much to make it worthwhile. But I encourage you to make your case. my only point for the moment is that late capitalism is not, as you were told in busyness school, a system built on private property, and that you cannot ground your justification for the existing order in liberal theory, ESPECIALLY adam smith, because adam smith would be absolutely horrified by the way our economy works today furthermore, the more that you can get rid of corporate ownership and promote small, locally owned businesses, the better off we will all be. don't republican assholes talk all the time about small business? the difference between me and them is that I actually believe in small business I don't think how Adam Smith defined private property is very meaningful. If his definition has the potential to produce real world betterment, great, but that needs to be argued. Similarly, small businesses are not always better and rote support of them doesn't reflect real world wants and needs. Small businesses actually are great though. But complex government regulations hurt small businesses a lot more than they hurt big businesses. Small businesses flourish in an environment where the rules are simple and transparent. The US today seems to be moving further away from that every year.
That can be true, but even if you got rid of all regulations (I doubt we'd want to!) large businesses would still have advantages at times that society would want to keep. If you look at the current situation in the US some industries are dominated by large firms, some by small firms and most are a mix. Regulations play a role in that, but it's rarely the dominant factor.
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United States44311 Posts
On January 13 2014 03:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 21:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 12 2014 16:08 IgnE wrote:Evolution still deeply unpopular among Americans. Dismissed by 4 in 10 as elitist malarkey. Politicians shift towards promoting Intelligent Design in public schools. Fascinating to think that the world's science powerhouse, that has brought us iPhones, space shuttles and sent men on the moon has only 15% of its population really believing in science, and 45% of its population holding on absolutely medieval beliefs. I wouldn't like being a 35th century's archeologist trying to understand that country in the XXth and XXIst century. It's going to be a giant mindfuck for future observers. You do realize you can cherry pick your beliefs, right? Someone who's religious can understand the science perfectly fine but choose not to roll with that in their personal lives.
Sure, and someone could be an airline pilot professionally and choose to deny that gravity exists in their private life but at a certain point it's reasonable to expect someone to pick beliefs that conform with reality. While I accept that someone can choose to disbelieve in evolution, gravity, left (I heard it's just right in a mirror) or any number of other silly things people should be held accountable for their beliefs. If they choose to believe really dumb shit then they're probably just really dumb.
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Without any kind of supranational institution I don't see how we will be able tame large businesses, they're just to big. If we'd be able to stop the tax evasion that is being practiced by large companies(most tech companies are effectively paying taxes in the single digit range) we'd have a lot more money at hand to help small businesses and low income workers in most industrialized countries.
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On January 13 2014 03:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 03:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 12 2014 21:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 12 2014 16:08 IgnE wrote:Evolution still deeply unpopular among Americans. Dismissed by 4 in 10 as elitist malarkey. Politicians shift towards promoting Intelligent Design in public schools. Fascinating to think that the world's science powerhouse, that has brought us iPhones, space shuttles and sent men on the moon has only 15% of its population really believing in science, and 45% of its population holding on absolutely medieval beliefs. I wouldn't like being a 35th century's archeologist trying to understand that country in the XXth and XXIst century. It's going to be a giant mindfuck for future observers. You do realize you can cherry pick your beliefs, right? Someone who's religious can understand the science perfectly fine but choose not to roll with that in their personal lives. Sure, and someone could be an airline pilot professionally and choose to deny that gravity exists in their private life but at a certain point it's reasonable to expect someone to pick beliefs that conform with reality. While I accept that someone can choose to disbelieve in evolution, gravity, left (I heard it's just right in a mirror) or any number of other silly things people should be held accountable for their beliefs. If they choose to believe really dumb shit then they're probably just really dumb.
You're waling a fine line between making on obvious point and being a bigot.
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United States44311 Posts
On January 13 2014 03:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 03:38 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 03:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 12 2014 21:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 12 2014 16:08 IgnE wrote:Evolution still deeply unpopular among Americans. Dismissed by 4 in 10 as elitist malarkey. Politicians shift towards promoting Intelligent Design in public schools. Fascinating to think that the world's science powerhouse, that has brought us iPhones, space shuttles and sent men on the moon has only 15% of its population really believing in science, and 45% of its population holding on absolutely medieval beliefs. I wouldn't like being a 35th century's archeologist trying to understand that country in the XXth and XXIst century. It's going to be a giant mindfuck for future observers. You do realize you can cherry pick your beliefs, right? Someone who's religious can understand the science perfectly fine but choose not to roll with that in their personal lives. Sure, and someone could be an airline pilot professionally and choose to deny that gravity exists in their private life but at a certain point it's reasonable to expect someone to pick beliefs that conform with reality. While I accept that someone can choose to disbelieve in evolution, gravity, left (I heard it's just right in a mirror) or any number of other silly things people should be held accountable for their beliefs. If they choose to believe really dumb shit then they're probably just really dumb. You're waling a fine line between making on obvious point and being a bigot.
Evolution is a scientific fact and people who don't understand that are either willfully ignorant or just stupid. Now I'm not saying all religious people are stupid, most have been smart enough to get around the obvious cognitive dissonance caused by being an intelligent individual trying to hold a belief they know is wrong and settled on God having a passive background role in the process. But those that have declined to take the out given to them by God guided evolution should merit a special type of contempt usually reserved for flat earthers and adults who still believe in Santa.
Again, we don't put up with this shit regarding gravity. If someone just flatly insisted that things didn't fall when dropped on earth you'd seek a diagnosis for them. Hell, even if people argued that while things do fall it's only because an invisible, all powerful and all knowing being that loved them was everywhere at once dragging them about you'd still think that was pretty dumb. Evolution gets a special pass for this bullshit in America, and only in America, because the mass delusion has taken hold so deeply that people don't get called out on it enough. Other crazy shit is rightfully dismissed but doubting evolution, despite being no less crazy, has a critical mass that makes it acceptable and it won't change until people start challenging it.
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there's nothing bigoted about calling dumb shit dumb. a lot of people are actually just really dumb. let me leave before I defend kwark any more 
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On January 13 2014 03:58 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 03:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 13 2014 03:38 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 03:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 12 2014 21:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 12 2014 16:08 IgnE wrote:Evolution still deeply unpopular among Americans. Dismissed by 4 in 10 as elitist malarkey. Politicians shift towards promoting Intelligent Design in public schools. Fascinating to think that the world's science powerhouse, that has brought us iPhones, space shuttles and sent men on the moon has only 15% of its population really believing in science, and 45% of its population holding on absolutely medieval beliefs. I wouldn't like being a 35th century's archeologist trying to understand that country in the XXth and XXIst century. It's going to be a giant mindfuck for future observers. You do realize you can cherry pick your beliefs, right? Someone who's religious can understand the science perfectly fine but choose not to roll with that in their personal lives. Sure, and someone could be an airline pilot professionally and choose to deny that gravity exists in their private life but at a certain point it's reasonable to expect someone to pick beliefs that conform with reality. While I accept that someone can choose to disbelieve in evolution, gravity, left (I heard it's just right in a mirror) or any number of other silly things people should be held accountable for their beliefs. If they choose to believe really dumb shit then they're probably just really dumb. You're waling a fine line between making on obvious point and being a bigot. Evolution is a scientific fact and people who don't understand that are either willfully ignorant or just stupid. Now I'm not saying all religious people are stupid, most have been smart enough to get around the obvious cognitive dissonance caused by being an intelligent individual trying to hold a belief they know is wrong and settled on God having a passive background role in the process. But those that have declined to take the out given to them by God guided evolution should merit a special type of contempt usually reserved for flat earthers and adults who still believe in Santa. Again, we don't put up with this shit regarding gravity. If someone just flatly insisted that things didn't fall when dropped on earth you'd seek a diagnosis for them. Hell, even if people argued that while things do fall it's only because an invisible, all powerful and all knowing being that loved them was everywhere at once dragging them about you'd still think that was pretty dumb. Evolution gets a special pass for this bullshit in America, and only in America, because the mass delusion has taken hold so deeply that people don't get called out on it enough. Other crazy shit is rightfully dismissed but doubting evolution, despite being no less crazy, has a critical mass that makes it acceptable and it won't change until people start challenging it.
Tolerance, Kwark. If there's one thing Europeans should know by now, it's that tolerance has value.
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United States44311 Posts
On January 13 2014 04:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 03:58 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 03:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 13 2014 03:38 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 03:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 12 2014 21:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 12 2014 16:08 IgnE wrote:Evolution still deeply unpopular among Americans. Dismissed by 4 in 10 as elitist malarkey. Politicians shift towards promoting Intelligent Design in public schools. Fascinating to think that the world's science powerhouse, that has brought us iPhones, space shuttles and sent men on the moon has only 15% of its population really believing in science, and 45% of its population holding on absolutely medieval beliefs. I wouldn't like being a 35th century's archeologist trying to understand that country in the XXth and XXIst century. It's going to be a giant mindfuck for future observers. You do realize you can cherry pick your beliefs, right? Someone who's religious can understand the science perfectly fine but choose not to roll with that in their personal lives. Sure, and someone could be an airline pilot professionally and choose to deny that gravity exists in their private life but at a certain point it's reasonable to expect someone to pick beliefs that conform with reality. While I accept that someone can choose to disbelieve in evolution, gravity, left (I heard it's just right in a mirror) or any number of other silly things people should be held accountable for their beliefs. If they choose to believe really dumb shit then they're probably just really dumb. You're waling a fine line between making on obvious point and being a bigot. Evolution is a scientific fact and people who don't understand that are either willfully ignorant or just stupid. Now I'm not saying all religious people are stupid, most have been smart enough to get around the obvious cognitive dissonance caused by being an intelligent individual trying to hold a belief they know is wrong and settled on God having a passive background role in the process. But those that have declined to take the out given to them by God guided evolution should merit a special type of contempt usually reserved for flat earthers and adults who still believe in Santa. Again, we don't put up with this shit regarding gravity. If someone just flatly insisted that things didn't fall when dropped on earth you'd seek a diagnosis for them. Hell, even if people argued that while things do fall it's only because an invisible, all powerful and all knowing being that loved them was everywhere at once dragging them about you'd still think that was pretty dumb. Evolution gets a special pass for this bullshit in America, and only in America, because the mass delusion has taken hold so deeply that people don't get called out on it enough. Other crazy shit is rightfully dismissed but doubting evolution, despite being no less crazy, has a critical mass that makes it acceptable and it won't change until people start challenging it. Tolerance, Kwark. If there's one thing Europeans should know by now, it's that tolerance has value.
I'm not saying we should put them into camps and gas them, I'm saying it shouldn't be socially acceptable to believe something so stupid and that it already isn't in the case of every other clearly ridiculous belief. It's not that Americans don't feel the same way as Europeans regarding idiocy, you wouldn't employ someone who came to a job interview with his shoes on the wrong feet and then told you he believed in his heart that both feet are the same shape, it's that disbelief in evolution has somehow been grandfathered in as a special exemption to the social conventions against being a moron.
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It isn't that difficult to parse out, at least in a cursory sense, why it is that these sort of intellectually flawed skepticisms are represented so well here in the states; just look at the original 13 colonies and their wild variance in governance relative to matters of faith. Since the very beginning, the US was a place to go to believe things that others would kill or ridicule you for.
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United States44311 Posts
On January 13 2014 04:13 farvacola wrote:
It isn't that difficult to parse out, at least in a cursory sense, why it is that these sort of intellectually flawed skepticisms are represented so well here in the states; just look at the original 13 colonies and their wild variance in governance relative to matters of faith. Since the very beginning, the US was a place to go to believe things that others would kill or ridicule you for.
On the other hand most of your immigration was economic due to surplus population from Europe and not an attempt to seek out somewhere to deny things. Even the religious migration was largely an attempt to flee the religious wars of Europe rather than a result of the extremist nature of the beliefs.
The people of the United States are not descended from pilgrims seeking a place of religious freedom.
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Norway28895 Posts
I gotta agree with jonny here. (at least partially) It's kinda like, I'd be willing to dismiss the believers of literal genesis interpretation as dumb, if not for the fact that they are so many. Even if belief in this was actually determined by how smart you were, and the actual 45% dumbest americans were the ones who believed in the 7k year old earth, I think that's far too many to just dismiss it as stupidity. Rather, I think they're victims of systematic indoctrination, and it's sad.
And it needs to change, because this notion that you can pick and choose what facts you believe in doesn't bring anything good with it. But we're not going to change anyone's opinion by just dismissing these people as dumb retards. From my perspective, this is the great folly of dawkins, and it is guilty of dismissing facts in much the same way literal bible-interpretation does. If you present someone with a convincing argument of why they are a retard, they're gonna stop listening at the very moment you call them a retard. Sure, it might feel good to intellectually destroy someone, but thinking you're doing someone a favor by harshly educating them, that idea is thoroughly rejected by any pedagogical scholar.
It's always possible to convey the point you're trying to make without insulting people, and insults are merely representations of a more sadistic impulse or lack of self control. Be nice and you will be far more convincing.
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On January 13 2014 04:18 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 04:13 farvacola wrote:
It isn't that difficult to parse out, at least in a cursory sense, why it is that these sort of intellectually flawed skepticisms are represented so well here in the states; just look at the original 13 colonies and their wild variance in governance relative to matters of faith. Since the very beginning, the US was a place to go to believe things that others would kill or ridicule you for. On the other hand most of your immigration was economic due to surplus population from Europe and not an attempt to seek out somewhere to deny things. Even the religious migration was largely an attempt to flee the religious wars of Europe rather than a result of the extremist nature of the beliefs. The people of the United States are not descended from pilgrims seeking a place of religious freedom.
As a category, of course not. In specificity though, there most certainly has existed a strain of religious extremism since the nations founding and before; you'd be mistaken to ignore this in pursuit of understanding why the US "tolerates" these things as it does.
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On January 13 2014 04:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 04:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 13 2014 03:58 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 03:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 13 2014 03:38 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 03:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 12 2014 21:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 12 2014 16:08 IgnE wrote:Evolution still deeply unpopular among Americans. Dismissed by 4 in 10 as elitist malarkey. Politicians shift towards promoting Intelligent Design in public schools. Fascinating to think that the world's science powerhouse, that has brought us iPhones, space shuttles and sent men on the moon has only 15% of its population really believing in science, and 45% of its population holding on absolutely medieval beliefs. I wouldn't like being a 35th century's archeologist trying to understand that country in the XXth and XXIst century. It's going to be a giant mindfuck for future observers. You do realize you can cherry pick your beliefs, right? Someone who's religious can understand the science perfectly fine but choose not to roll with that in their personal lives. Sure, and someone could be an airline pilot professionally and choose to deny that gravity exists in their private life but at a certain point it's reasonable to expect someone to pick beliefs that conform with reality. While I accept that someone can choose to disbelieve in evolution, gravity, left (I heard it's just right in a mirror) or any number of other silly things people should be held accountable for their beliefs. If they choose to believe really dumb shit then they're probably just really dumb. You're waling a fine line between making on obvious point and being a bigot. Evolution is a scientific fact and people who don't understand that are either willfully ignorant or just stupid. Now I'm not saying all religious people are stupid, most have been smart enough to get around the obvious cognitive dissonance caused by being an intelligent individual trying to hold a belief they know is wrong and settled on God having a passive background role in the process. But those that have declined to take the out given to them by God guided evolution should merit a special type of contempt usually reserved for flat earthers and adults who still believe in Santa. Again, we don't put up with this shit regarding gravity. If someone just flatly insisted that things didn't fall when dropped on earth you'd seek a diagnosis for them. Hell, even if people argued that while things do fall it's only because an invisible, all powerful and all knowing being that loved them was everywhere at once dragging them about you'd still think that was pretty dumb. Evolution gets a special pass for this bullshit in America, and only in America, because the mass delusion has taken hold so deeply that people don't get called out on it enough. Other crazy shit is rightfully dismissed but doubting evolution, despite being no less crazy, has a critical mass that makes it acceptable and it won't change until people start challenging it. Tolerance, Kwark. If there's one thing Europeans should know by now, it's that tolerance has value. I'm not saying we should put them into camps and gas them, I'm saying it shouldn't be socially acceptable to believe something so stupid and that it already isn't in the case of every other clearly ridiculous belief. It's not that Americans don't feel the same way as Europeans regarding idiocy, you wouldn't employ someone who came to a job interview with his shoes on the wrong feet and then told you he believed in his heart that both feet are the same shape, it's that disbelief in evolution has somehow been grandfathered in as a special exemption to the social conventions against being a moron.
In America it's generally considered bad form to hate on someone over religious / cultural differences. Frankly, intolerance of this sort seems extremely moronic to me and I can't imagine you having an easy time getting hired if you wear these views on your sleeve.
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On January 13 2014 04:18 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 04:13 farvacola wrote:
It isn't that difficult to parse out, at least in a cursory sense, why it is that these sort of intellectually flawed skepticisms are represented so well here in the states; just look at the original 13 colonies and their wild variance in governance relative to matters of faith. Since the very beginning, the US was a place to go to believe things that others would kill or ridicule you for. On the other hand most of your immigration was economic due to surplus population from Europe and not an attempt to seek out somewhere to deny things. Even the religious migration was largely an attempt to flee the religious wars of Europe rather than a result of the extremist nature of the beliefs. The people of the United States are not descended from pilgrims seeking a place of religious freedom.
ideologically, we are
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United States44311 Posts
On January 13 2014 04:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 04:09 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 04:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 13 2014 03:58 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 03:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 13 2014 03:38 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 03:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 12 2014 21:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 12 2014 16:08 IgnE wrote:Evolution still deeply unpopular among Americans. Dismissed by 4 in 10 as elitist malarkey. Politicians shift towards promoting Intelligent Design in public schools. Fascinating to think that the world's science powerhouse, that has brought us iPhones, space shuttles and sent men on the moon has only 15% of its population really believing in science, and 45% of its population holding on absolutely medieval beliefs. I wouldn't like being a 35th century's archeologist trying to understand that country in the XXth and XXIst century. It's going to be a giant mindfuck for future observers. You do realize you can cherry pick your beliefs, right? Someone who's religious can understand the science perfectly fine but choose not to roll with that in their personal lives. Sure, and someone could be an airline pilot professionally and choose to deny that gravity exists in their private life but at a certain point it's reasonable to expect someone to pick beliefs that conform with reality. While I accept that someone can choose to disbelieve in evolution, gravity, left (I heard it's just right in a mirror) or any number of other silly things people should be held accountable for their beliefs. If they choose to believe really dumb shit then they're probably just really dumb. You're waling a fine line between making on obvious point and being a bigot. Evolution is a scientific fact and people who don't understand that are either willfully ignorant or just stupid. Now I'm not saying all religious people are stupid, most have been smart enough to get around the obvious cognitive dissonance caused by being an intelligent individual trying to hold a belief they know is wrong and settled on God having a passive background role in the process. But those that have declined to take the out given to them by God guided evolution should merit a special type of contempt usually reserved for flat earthers and adults who still believe in Santa. Again, we don't put up with this shit regarding gravity. If someone just flatly insisted that things didn't fall when dropped on earth you'd seek a diagnosis for them. Hell, even if people argued that while things do fall it's only because an invisible, all powerful and all knowing being that loved them was everywhere at once dragging them about you'd still think that was pretty dumb. Evolution gets a special pass for this bullshit in America, and only in America, because the mass delusion has taken hold so deeply that people don't get called out on it enough. Other crazy shit is rightfully dismissed but doubting evolution, despite being no less crazy, has a critical mass that makes it acceptable and it won't change until people start challenging it. Tolerance, Kwark. If there's one thing Europeans should know by now, it's that tolerance has value. I'm not saying we should put them into camps and gas them, I'm saying it shouldn't be socially acceptable to believe something so stupid and that it already isn't in the case of every other clearly ridiculous belief. It's not that Americans don't feel the same way as Europeans regarding idiocy, you wouldn't employ someone who came to a job interview with his shoes on the wrong feet and then told you he believed in his heart that both feet are the same shape, it's that disbelief in evolution has somehow been grandfathered in as a special exemption to the social conventions against being a moron. In America it's generally considered bad form to hate on someone over religious / cultural differences. Frankly, intolerance of this sort seems extremely moronic to me and I can't imagine you having an easy time getting hired if you wear these views on your sleeve.
Believing really dumb shit should be a thing you're ashamed of. It's not a religious or cultural difference, it's a choice. If I don't hire you because you've got an Arabic name then I'm discriminating against you because of your culture. If I don't hire you because you couldn't work out how to get into the building because you're choosing not to believe in doors today then I'm discriminating against your stupidity. They're not the same thing and shouldn't be treated the same way.
A lot of Americans believe in their heart that Obama is disqualified from being President for being a Kenyan but it doesn't count for shit when they try to ignore his laws because Americans, like the rest of the world, don't let stupid beliefs overrule reality. It's only evolution that gets a free pass.
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On January 13 2014 04:30 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 04:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 13 2014 04:09 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 04:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 13 2014 03:58 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 03:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 13 2014 03:38 KwarK wrote:On January 13 2014 03:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On January 12 2014 21:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 12 2014 16:08 IgnE wrote:Evolution still deeply unpopular among Americans. Dismissed by 4 in 10 as elitist malarkey. Politicians shift towards promoting Intelligent Design in public schools. Fascinating to think that the world's science powerhouse, that has brought us iPhones, space shuttles and sent men on the moon has only 15% of its population really believing in science, and 45% of its population holding on absolutely medieval beliefs. I wouldn't like being a 35th century's archeologist trying to understand that country in the XXth and XXIst century. It's going to be a giant mindfuck for future observers. You do realize you can cherry pick your beliefs, right? Someone who's religious can understand the science perfectly fine but choose not to roll with that in their personal lives. Sure, and someone could be an airline pilot professionally and choose to deny that gravity exists in their private life but at a certain point it's reasonable to expect someone to pick beliefs that conform with reality. While I accept that someone can choose to disbelieve in evolution, gravity, left (I heard it's just right in a mirror) or any number of other silly things people should be held accountable for their beliefs. If they choose to believe really dumb shit then they're probably just really dumb. You're waling a fine line between making on obvious point and being a bigot. Evolution is a scientific fact and people who don't understand that are either willfully ignorant or just stupid. Now I'm not saying all religious people are stupid, most have been smart enough to get around the obvious cognitive dissonance caused by being an intelligent individual trying to hold a belief they know is wrong and settled on God having a passive background role in the process. But those that have declined to take the out given to them by God guided evolution should merit a special type of contempt usually reserved for flat earthers and adults who still believe in Santa. Again, we don't put up with this shit regarding gravity. If someone just flatly insisted that things didn't fall when dropped on earth you'd seek a diagnosis for them. Hell, even if people argued that while things do fall it's only because an invisible, all powerful and all knowing being that loved them was everywhere at once dragging them about you'd still think that was pretty dumb. Evolution gets a special pass for this bullshit in America, and only in America, because the mass delusion has taken hold so deeply that people don't get called out on it enough. Other crazy shit is rightfully dismissed but doubting evolution, despite being no less crazy, has a critical mass that makes it acceptable and it won't change until people start challenging it. Tolerance, Kwark. If there's one thing Europeans should know by now, it's that tolerance has value. I'm not saying we should put them into camps and gas them, I'm saying it shouldn't be socially acceptable to believe something so stupid and that it already isn't in the case of every other clearly ridiculous belief. It's not that Americans don't feel the same way as Europeans regarding idiocy, you wouldn't employ someone who came to a job interview with his shoes on the wrong feet and then told you he believed in his heart that both feet are the same shape, it's that disbelief in evolution has somehow been grandfathered in as a special exemption to the social conventions against being a moron. In America it's generally considered bad form to hate on someone over religious / cultural differences. Frankly, intolerance of this sort seems extremely moronic to me and I can't imagine you having an easy time getting hired if you wear these views on your sleeve. Believing really dumb shit should be a thing you're ashamed of. It's not a religious or cultural difference, it's a choice. If I don't hire you because you've got an Arabic name then I'm discriminating against you because of your culture. If I don't hire you because you couldn't work out how to get into the building because you're choosing not to believe in doors today then I'm discriminating against your stupidity. They're not the same thing and shouldn't be treated the same way. A lot of Americans believe in their heart that Obama is disqualified from being President for being a Kenyan but it doesn't count for shit when they try to ignore his laws because Americans, like the rest of the world, don't let stupid beliefs overrule reality. It's only evolution that gets a free pass.
If you can't understand the difference between someone dis-believing in evolution on religious grounds and someone not being able to figure out how a door works, you are, without a doubt, stupid.
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