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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On November 09 2016 06:54 KlaCkoN wrote: I know Americans like to make that statement but it makes about as much sense as saying "China is as large and diverse as all of NATO!" We say it because it doesn't really.. it doesn't sink in. People see America as America. One big ol group of people. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 09 2016 06:40 farvacola wrote: I actually have a theory that political disinformation on the part of the general population has led to a massive misplacement of blame when it comes to our government dysfunction. The Federal Government is what gets the spotlight most of the time and is what appears most visible, but in reality, the majority of special interest influence capture and actual mechanics of government malfunction occur at the state and local levels. not really misinformation so much as a general tendency of certain political movements to rely on abstract representation of politics. with the caveat of disadvantageous voter distribution for local and congressional races, a political movement that has a big moment of inspiration from an abstract idea or leader will have to develop that energy into an actual organization fitting the political machinery, otherwise the movement is largely expressive. from obama voters complaining about lack of progress but didn't vote in congressional or state elections, to trump voters trying to do GOTV by parading with posters around the highway, these are people who see political problems primarily at the macro level of Society. the objective is 'social transformation' and other grand pictures populated by vaguely defined, collective entities. + Show Spoiler + (sorites problem demonstrating disconnect between representation and reality in these situations) america has these ideological movements every so often, and most do not develop the kind of organization required to be anything but epidermal. these moments of energetic politics do not penetrate the layer of local and state politics, especially if the movement is focused at the presidential, 'social transformation' level. rather than local politics, the courts and federal, elite institutions via academic influence seem like the way to go. the ideological movements with a grand social vision are not real politics as practiced on the local and state level. dem ground level organizations also tend to be narrowly focused along union lines, with a defensive posture in terms of prioritizing the security of certain narrowly focused gains for particular labor groups rather than political justice and all that. | ||
KwarK
United States42967 Posts
On November 09 2016 06:58 Big J wrote: while in Europe our political systems keep on collapsing over and over again Just because the UK doesn't want to be in your club anymore doesn't mean it's not in Europe. British democracy is so stable we don't even need it written down how it works. It's in our bones at this point. | ||
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KwarK
United States42967 Posts
On November 09 2016 06:51 farvacola wrote: I like KwarK's a lot better, I bet 100 with a friend on Clinton getting at least over 300  That's essentially just a bet on Florida, from what I can tell. You'd have a lot of trouble making a map over 300 without including it. | ||
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farvacola
United States18832 Posts
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On November 09 2016 07:01 KwarK wrote: Just because the UK doesn't want to be in your club anymore doesn't mean it's not in Europe. British democracy is so stable we don't even need it written down how it works. It's in our bones at this point. Watch France, watch, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Turkey (lol Europe?), Italy, Spain. Turkey completly lost, Poland and Hungary get transformed each day a bit away of open democracies, Austria and France are crumbeling under the influence of the new right wing partiies, just like Netherlands and Sweden. Italy is crumbeling under the populist movement, as their gouvernment always has been. Spain finally got a new gouvernment after a year of stalement and nothingness. And while english democracy (which has been more a republic of aristrocats in a time when USA was a true democracy) is the only long time stable in a major country, Italy, France, Germany all had massive "revolutions" from the right, left or just complete downfalls. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On November 09 2016 07:01 KwarK wrote: Just because the UK doesn't want to be in your club anymore doesn't mean it's not in Europe. British democracy is so stable we don't even need it written down how it works. It's in our bones at this point. Can't really say "UK" when it was more like "part of England". And European governments have been in upheaval over the last 150 years. It's been generally stable in the last 15. Sure. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On November 09 2016 06:58 Probe1 wrote: We say it because it doesn't really.. it doesn't sink in. People see America as America. One big ol group of people. And you think that applies to any European country? Or even better, Europe as a whole? There is a very large rural/urban cultural divide in the US, and also in every other urbanized country. The US political system has issues with power centralization... and so does Bosnia-Hercikovina. Sweden has a larger percentage foreign born citizens than the US does. I dont know, I have lived in the US for the past 5 years, I just don't see this massive qualitative differences you guys are describing. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
The real question is: is this combination of states just for the 322? :O | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On November 09 2016 07:07 KlaCkoN wrote: And you think that applies to any European country? Or even better, Europe as a whole? There is a very large rural/urban cultural divide in the US, and also in every other urbanized country. The US political system has issues with power centralization... and so does Bosnia-Hercikovina. Sweden has a larger percentage foreign born citizens than the US does. I dont know, I have lived in the US for the past 5 years, I just don't see this massive qualitative differences you guys are describing. Did you live in the US? Describe it as you saw it and where you lived, and for how long. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
as long as michigan doesn't sink into the maws of hell she should be fine. | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On November 09 2016 07:07 Sbrubbles wrote: The real question is: is this combination of states just for the 322? 322 would more suit if Trump wins and Hillary throws :D | ||
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farvacola
United States18832 Posts
On November 09 2016 07:07 KlaCkoN wrote: And you think that applies to any European country? Or even better, Europe as a whole? There is a very large rural/urban cultural divide in the US, and also in every other urbanized country. The US political system has issues with power centralization... and so does Bosnia-Hercikovina. Sweden has a larger percentage foreign born citizens than the US does. I dont know, I have lived in the US for the past 5 years, I just don't see this massive qualitative differences you guys are describing. There are plenty of natural born US citizens who don't see it either, so you're not alone there. It really is a matter of perspective, and when a large percentage of a nation's native population never lives further than 50 miles away from where they were born, it's natural that viewpoints will differ wildly on what exactly makes up the fabric of living and working in American society. The urban/rural divide accounts for some of it, but, in a manner of speaking, farm folk in California and farm folk in Indiana are not the same kind of folk in much the same way that New Yorkers are not like Houstonians at all lol. | ||
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Wolfstan
Canada605 Posts
On November 09 2016 07:11 farvacola wrote: There are plenty of natural born US citizens who don't see it either, so you're not alone there. It really is a matter of perspective, and when a large percentage of a nation's native population never lives further than 50 miles away from where they were born, it's natural that viewpoints will differ wildly on what exactly makes up the fabric of living and working in American society. The urban/rural divide accounts for some of it, but, in a manner of speaking, farm folk in California and farm folk in Indiana are not the same kind of folk in much the same way that New Yorkers are not like Houstonians at all lol. That part just baffles me, I have never understood why people don't just move where the best opportunities are. Same thing with self segregating communities. | ||
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.270towin.com/presidential_map_new/maps/pR7Ww.png) | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 09 2016 07:14 Wolfstan wrote: That part just baffles me, I have never understood why people don't just move where the best opportunities are. Same thing with self segregating communities. standard answer is age and skill gap, but real answer is lack of fundamental government services in terms of portable healthcare, good basic education and retraining. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 09 2016 07:07 KlaCkoN wrote: And you think that applies to any European country? Or even better, Europe as a whole? There is a very large rural/urban cultural divide in the US, and also in every other urbanized country. The US political system has issues with power centralization... and so does Bosnia-Hercikovina. Sweden has a larger percentage foreign born citizens than the US does. I dont know, I have lived in the US for the past 5 years, I just don't see this massive qualitative differences you guys are describing. You have not lived in enough areas in the US. There is a huge difference between the Massachusetts and Ohio or Texas. From how we run our local goverment to how we structure our lives. The mid-west is nothing like New England in both culture and political concerns. We are just huge. | ||
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Wolfstan
Canada605 Posts
Edit: I wanted Trump to win the Republican primary too thinking he was a smarter candidate. User was warned for this post | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
On November 09 2016 07:18 Wolfstan wrote: I got Hilary at over 300 but Americans stupidity should not be underestimated. This is the electorate that elected Reagan, Schwarzenegger, Ventura and nominated Trump. whoa there ![[image loading]](http://media.salon.com/2014/02/rob_ford2.jpg) User was warned for this post | ||
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