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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45048 Posts
October 04 2016 18:16 GMT
#106381
On October 05 2016 03:06 Nevuk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2016 02:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On October 05 2016 02:35 Nevuk wrote:
On October 05 2016 02:30 xDaunt wrote:
On October 05 2016 02:27 KOFgokuon wrote:
tbh, even of clinton wins, if congress doesn't swap then nothing is gonna get done regardless, and we're gonna get stuck with the same shithole we have now in 2 years when the senate swings heavily back republican

Nah, you have it wrong. A lot will get done if Clinton wins because, unlike Obama, she's not an ideologue.

I'm not so sure if it is only the ideologue part. The GOP has consistently criticized Obama for not being willing to meet with them and listen to them demands, instead claiming he just lectures them when they meet. Clinton would definitely be willing to listen to their concerns for as many hours as it takes.


Is that a joke? Obama tried bipartisanship over and over and over again and it didn't matter because McConnell and other Republican leaders openly declared that they wouldn't even entertain the conversations- they smugly decided that they would actively sabotage Obama no matter what.

No, it is more complex than that. The GOP basically wants to be coddled and cradled while they cry into the president's arms about how awful their colleagues are being to them. Obama finds that ridiculous, but it is the only way he was going to get them to cooperate with him. Clinton is perfectly willing to listen to them bitch and moan for five hours about whatever. Basically, it is about cultivating personal relationships to pass legislation. Obama did start out with some disadvantages here, but he didn't really do a very good job on this front.

McConnell's objection even here is pretty much that Obama didn't tell him in person about the flaws with the bill and instead communicated it through the press. Why he didn't read the press release, who the fuck knows.

If my state ever replaces him I'll be very glad, but also insanely surprised.


I'd honestly be surprised if Hillary can swallow more Republican tears and bullshit than Obama has, but I guess only time will tell.

On October 05 2016 03:07 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2016 02:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On October 05 2016 02:35 Nevuk wrote:
On October 05 2016 02:30 xDaunt wrote:
On October 05 2016 02:27 KOFgokuon wrote:
tbh, even of clinton wins, if congress doesn't swap then nothing is gonna get done regardless, and we're gonna get stuck with the same shithole we have now in 2 years when the senate swings heavily back republican

Nah, you have it wrong. A lot will get done if Clinton wins because, unlike Obama, she's not an ideologue.

I'm not so sure if it is only the ideologue part. The GOP has consistently criticized Obama for not being willing to meet with them and listen to them demands, instead claiming he just lectures them when they meet. Clinton would definitely be willing to listen to their concerns for as many hours as it takes.


Is that a joke? Obama tried bipartisanship over and over and over again and it didn't matter because McConnell and other Republican leaders openly declared that they wouldn't even entertain the conversations- they smugly decided that they would actively sabotage Obama no matter what.

it's not a joke; for reasons I am not clear on, many conservatives have a different view and a different memory of what happened. and they will strongly insist that they remember it correctly.


It's terrifying when we have video evidence:

+ Show Spoiler +


As in, his top political priority isn't to do his job and help the American people by actually participating in government, but instead crying about Obama and refusing to engage in civil discourse? Facepalm.

"It reveals some of my reporting on the Republican plot to obstruct President Obama before he even took office, including secret meetings led by House GOP whip Eric Cantor (in December 2008) and Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell (in early January 2009) in which they laid out their daring (though cynical and political) no-honeymoon strategy of all-out resistance to a popular President-elect during an economic emergency. “If he was for it,” former Ohio Senator George Voinovich explained, “we had to be against it.” ... “It was stunning that we’d set this up and, before hearing from the President, they’d say they were going to oppose this,” Axelrod says. “Our feeling was, we were dealing with a potential disaster of epic proportions that demanded cooperation. If anything was a signal of what the next two years would be like, it was that.”"
~ http://swampland.time.com/2012/08/23/the-party-of-no-new-details-on-the-gop-plot-to-obstruct-obama/
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 04 2016 18:17 GMT
#106382
On October 05 2016 03:04 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2016 02:56 Slaughter wrote:
Deomocrats didn't call out Obama for "not telling them" about the problems he had with the bill, even though he publicly said what his problems with it were. That was your boy McConnell.

To be fair, there's plenty on the conservative side of this thread who are sick of McConnell's bullshit too.

I distinctly remember Danglars calling him out on this earlier in the thread.

He's one of the most reviled men amongst conservatives.

This is all rather funny. Someone wants to stick up for Obama's alleged bipartisanship and expects naming Republican leaders will provoke the same. He deserves to be gone, even at the cost of a GOP seat, but it's going to be a long time and I expect he'll retire into a cozy lobbying position if the race becomes tough.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 04 2016 18:20 GMT
#106383
plasma -> hence why I don't understand it; but if you want a better understanding of why some conservatives feel that way, you'd have to take it up with some of our conservative posters; iirc there are a few who remember things having been different and could explain their reasoning to you.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9137 Posts
October 04 2016 18:27 GMT
#106384
Philippine leader Rodrigo Duterte told President Barack Obama "you can go to hell" in a speech Tuesday that was his strongest tirade so far against the U.S. over its criticism of his deadly anti-drug campaign, adding that he may eventually decide to "break up with America."

He also lashed out anew at the European Union, saying the bloc, which has also criticized his brutal crackdown, "better choose purgatory, hell is filled up."

Since becoming president in June, Duterte has had an uneasy relationship with the U.S. and with Obama and has declared intentions to bolster relations with China and Russia as he revamps Philippine foreign policy that has long leaned on Washington.

The brash-speaking leader also has been hypersensitive to criticism over his anti-drug crackdown, which has left more than an estimated 3,000 suspected drug dealers and pushers dead in just three months, alarming the United Nations, the EU, the U.S. and human rights watchdogs.


In a speech before a local convention attended by officials and business executives, Duterte outlined his disappointments with the U.S., which has asked his government to stop the widespread killings and has questioned whether human rights are being violated. He also described Washington as an unreliable ally, saying Filipino forces have not benefited from joint combat exercises with U.S. troops.

"Instead of helping us, the first to criticize is this State Department, so you can go to hell, Mr. Obama, you can go to hell," Duterte said. Then addressing the EU, he said: "Better choose purgatory, hell is filled up."

In a later speech at a synagogue in Makati city in the Manila metropolis, Duterte warned he may decide to "break up with America" in his most serious threat so far to push relations back with Washington.

"Eventually I might, in my time, I will break up with America," he said without elaborating. "I would rather go to Russia and to China."

In Washington, White House spokesman Josh Earnest said Tuesday that the U.S. had not received any official request from Duterte or any other Philippine official to alter any aspect of bilateral cooperation.


http://bigstory.ap.org/article/719a579d1e394e3ba5e8499667e60a3b/us-philippine-drills-open-uncertainty-are-they-last
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43219 Posts
October 04 2016 18:33 GMT
#106385
Yeah, so you can't really play the superpowers off against each other the way you could in 1955 anymore. You can refuse to do business with the US or EU but they're not going to miss the Philippines and Russia is no United States.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 04 2016 18:35 GMT
#106386
Not that random political realignment is a smart idea anyways.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-04 18:37:09
October 04 2016 18:35 GMT
#106387
If second world dictators trying to align with Russia are going to proliferate at the current rate Russia is going to need to take out a loan.

Is "drown Russia with wannabe autocrats" a viable foreign policy doctrine?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43219 Posts
October 04 2016 18:50 GMT
#106388
If it doesn't continue at the current rate Russia is still going to need a loan.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 04 2016 18:52 GMT
#106389
Donald Trump used his private foundation -- funded largely by outsider contributions -- to build relationships with social conservative groups ahead of his 2016 presidential bid, an examination by Real Clear Politics published Tuesday found.

In one case, the Trump Foundation may have violated IRS rules by donating to a not-for-profit allowed to engage in a political activity -- and thus subject to tougher regulations regarding incoming contributions -- as opposed to a traditional charity. The other transactions highlighted by Real Clear Politics reveal a pattern starting in 2011 of Trump speaking at right wing groups' confabs around the same time the Trump Foundation was making donations to their non-profit affiliates, though the RCP report stopped short of alleging an explicit quid pro quo.

“He was politically active starting in 2011,” a source with ties to Trump told RCP, adding that around that time Trump “started to make strategic donations.”

Trump Foundation tax filings between in 2011 and 2014 showed that it donated up at least $286,000 to noteworthy conservative or policy groups, RCP reported. Often times, the contributions were from Trump's foundation to the charity arms of the social conservative groups. However, Trump Foundation tax returns from 2013 show a $10,000 contribution to The Family Leader -- a 501(c)(4) that is allowed to engage in limited political activity and thus receives more scrutiny -- rather than to the group's 501(c)(3) charity affiliate the Family Leader Foundation, according to RCP.

“There’s a mistake somewhere,” Rosemary Fei, a partner at the Adler & Colvin law firm in San Francisco, who specializes in charity law, told RCP. “It might be a really substantive mistake, or it could just be a reporting error or sloppiness. But improper reporting is still a violation of tax law. That’s something the IRS would look at.”

Even in instances where the Trump Foundation probably did not violate charity tax law, the foundation's transactions paint a picture of how Trump made inroads with the social conservative movement -- which had reason to be skeptical of the flashy New York billionaire -- as he laid the ground work for his campaign for the GOP nomination.

The RCP report comes as the Trump Foundation is under investigation by the New York Attorney General's office, which ordered last week that it cease its fundraising activities because it lacked the proper certification to solicit contributions. Trump himself stopped donating to the foundation after 2008, according to tax filings, and its coffers have since been filled outside contributors.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
October 04 2016 19:11 GMT
#106390
Obama wrote an op-ed about GOP obstructionism
This week, the Supreme Court returns to work. The Justices will hear important cases on issues ranging from the separation of church and state to intellectual property to Congressional redistricting to the death penalty. Many of the cases address questions that are fundamental to our democracy: the right to vote, for instance, or what constitutes U.S. citizenship. Yet – regardless of the stakes – Republicans in Congress have forced the Court to weigh these pivotal issues one Justice short of the Court’s full panel of nine.

In a city of self-inflicted wounds, this one is more dangerous and less defensible than most.

It’s been 202 days since I nominated Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court. That’s more than five months longer than the average nominee has had to wait over the last 40 years to receive a hearing in Congress – let alone an up or down vote. This delay has nothing to do with Judge Garland’s personality or his qualifications. Senators on both sides of the aisle acknowledge that he is a distinguished legal mind, a dedicated public servant, and a good and decent man.

Leader McConnell argues that with an election looming, the Supreme Court should remain short staffed, and he certainly knows his way around DC. But the last time a Supreme Court seat was kept vacant through Election Day was in 1864. At the height of the Civil War. So, this isn’t about precedent. This is about the obstruction of a broken Republican-led Congress.

Every day that GOP Senate leaders block this nomination, they hamstring the entire third branch of government. The Supreme Court is the final destination in a federal judiciary that routinely weighs some of society’s biggest questions. Already this past June, we saw a deadlocked Supreme Court, with no tie-breaking vote, unable to reach a majority on a major immigration case – leaving our Nation’s immigrants in limbo.

Part of what makes Judge Garland a remarkable jurist is his understanding that justice isn’t an abstract theory. It touches people’s lives every day. As long as Republicans continue their brinksmanship, America pays the price. Our most basic workings as a nation aren’t possible without a functioning judiciary at every level. Commerce is hindered and lives are put on hold. If we ever hope to restore the faith in our institutions that has eroded in recent years, we cannot tolerate a politically motivated, willfully negligent vacancy on the Supreme Court.

But this breakdown at the highest level is part of a bigger pattern.

By hobbling the Supreme Court for what could be a year or longer, Republicans are eroding one of the core institutions of American democracy. This cannot be the new normal.
Republicans have long been resolved to defeat proposals I’ve put forward or supported on everything from equal pay, immigration reform and increasing the minimum wage, to expanding commonsense background checks for those who want to purchase a gun, and basic protections for American workers against discrimination based on who they love or how they identify.

Republican leaders in Congress have proven they won’t work with my Administration, but along the way, they’ve lost sight of their basic mission. They can’t even meet their own goals. Republicans say they care about good paying jobs, but they’re ignoring one of the best ways to create them by refusing to make long overdue investments rebuilding our roads, bridges, ports and airports. A major infrastructure push would put Americans back to work and make our businesses more competitive – but Congress can’t get it done. They can’t move the ball forward on tax reform, one of the GOP’s biggest priorities, and they continue to delay serious funding to combat an opioid epidemic that has devastated the lives of many of their constituents. They talk a great deal about poverty, but refuse to address it in a meaningful way.

On countless priorities – issues that matter to people across the country, regardless of their politics – Republicans in Washington have traded progress for partisanship.

Their obstruction underscores a fundamental misunderstanding of the way our government should work. Sure, they’re blocking Merrick Garland – and maybe scoring a political point or two – but in doing so they are failing the American people. By hobbling the Supreme Court for what could be a year or longer, Republicans are eroding one of the core institutions of American democracy.
This cannot be the new normal. Let’s disagree on the issues, but let’s work together to protect a system of government that has stood strong for 240 years and made us the greatest country on Earth. We must expect better. You must demand better.

That’s why it’s so important that you make your voice heard. Call your representative. Tweet your Senator. Tell them what matters to you. And in November go vote. Then do it again in the next election, even when the presidency isn’t at stake. Send a clear message that Congress, at the very least, needs to perform its basic, Constitutional responsibilities – and should do much more.

We didn’t grow from a fledgling nation into the greatest force for good the world has ever known by flouting the institutions that define our democracy. We did it through fidelity to the values of our founding, and an understanding that our American experiment only works when we the people have a say. So do your part, and demand your representatives do theirs. That’s how we’ll carry forward the work of perfecting our Union.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/republican-obstruction-is-undermining-the-supreme-court-enough-is-enough_us_57f3cb16e4b0d0e1a9a9cfce?vbh2gldi
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
October 04 2016 19:30 GMT
#106391
On October 05 2016 03:17 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2016 03:04 TheYango wrote:
On October 05 2016 02:56 Slaughter wrote:
Deomocrats didn't call out Obama for "not telling them" about the problems he had with the bill, even though he publicly said what his problems with it were. That was your boy McConnell.

To be fair, there's plenty on the conservative side of this thread who are sick of McConnell's bullshit too.

I distinctly remember Danglars calling him out on this earlier in the thread.

He's one of the most reviled men amongst conservatives.

This is all rather funny. Someone wants to stick up for Obama's alleged bipartisanship and expects naming Republican leaders will provoke the same. He deserves to be gone, even at the cost of a GOP seat, but it's going to be a long time and I expect he'll retire into a cozy lobbying position if the race becomes tough.


Sadly, he's only reviled because he didn't obstruct enough. He "gave in". LOL
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 04 2016 19:52 GMT
#106392
On October 05 2016 04:30 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2016 03:17 Danglars wrote:
On October 05 2016 03:04 TheYango wrote:
On October 05 2016 02:56 Slaughter wrote:
Deomocrats didn't call out Obama for "not telling them" about the problems he had with the bill, even though he publicly said what his problems with it were. That was your boy McConnell.

To be fair, there's plenty on the conservative side of this thread who are sick of McConnell's bullshit too.

I distinctly remember Danglars calling him out on this earlier in the thread.

He's one of the most reviled men amongst conservatives.

This is all rather funny. Someone wants to stick up for Obama's alleged bipartisanship and expects naming Republican leaders will provoke the same. He deserves to be gone, even at the cost of a GOP seat, but it's going to be a long time and I expect he'll retire into a cozy lobbying position if the race becomes tough.


Sadly, he's only reviled because he didn't obstruct enough. He "gave in". LOL

The hell you on about now?
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21952 Posts
October 04 2016 19:52 GMT
#106393
On October 05 2016 03:17 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2016 03:04 TheYango wrote:
On October 05 2016 02:56 Slaughter wrote:
Deomocrats didn't call out Obama for "not telling them" about the problems he had with the bill, even though he publicly said what his problems with it were. That was your boy McConnell.

To be fair, there's plenty on the conservative side of this thread who are sick of McConnell's bullshit too.

I distinctly remember Danglars calling him out on this earlier in the thread.

He's one of the most reviled men amongst conservatives.

This is all rather funny. Someone wants to stick up for Obama's alleged bipartisanship and expects naming Republican leaders will provoke the same. He deserves to be gone, even at the cost of a GOP seat, but it's going to be a long time and I expect he'll retire into a cozy lobbying position if the race becomes tough.

So why exactly is this terrible man The single biggest spokesperson for the Republican party? Why has he not been driven out of atleast his leader position if his seat is so safe.
Is it perhabs because he indeed does speak for the majority of Republican politicians? And if so what does that tell you about where your party stands in relation to yourself?
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 04 2016 20:10 GMT
#106394
On October 05 2016 04:52 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2016 03:17 Danglars wrote:
On October 05 2016 03:04 TheYango wrote:
On October 05 2016 02:56 Slaughter wrote:
Deomocrats didn't call out Obama for "not telling them" about the problems he had with the bill, even though he publicly said what his problems with it were. That was your boy McConnell.

To be fair, there's plenty on the conservative side of this thread who are sick of McConnell's bullshit too.

I distinctly remember Danglars calling him out on this earlier in the thread.

He's one of the most reviled men amongst conservatives.

This is all rather funny. Someone wants to stick up for Obama's alleged bipartisanship and expects naming Republican leaders will provoke the same. He deserves to be gone, even at the cost of a GOP seat, but it's going to be a long time and I expect he'll retire into a cozy lobbying position if the race becomes tough.

So why exactly is this terrible man The single biggest spokesperson for the Republican party? Why has he not been driven out of atleast his leader position if his seat is so safe.
Is it perhabs because he indeed does speak for the majority of Republican politicians? And if so what does that tell you about where your party stands in relation to yourself?

Incumbency and the resources that come from it are a stiff challenge to surmount for a challenger with low name recognition. The reason he's still there is the same reason the Tea Party (and current waves of anti-establishment backlash) revolted against elected GOP politicians. The party's leadership is both ineffective and corrupt. You should ask yourself what kind of primary numbers a well-loved politician would get, then look up how well he did in 2014. Also ask yourself how the majority leader of the house fared from that epoch.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
October 04 2016 20:15 GMT
#106395
The same situation of shitty politicians remaining in power due to incumbency + being just popular enough to get votes from their constituency happens on the Democrat's side as well. See: Debbie Wasserman Schultz.
Moderator
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 04 2016 20:16 GMT
#106396
Stupid CNN, they have a countdown clock until the debate; we know when it's on, we don't need a gardang countdown clock!
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18115 Posts
October 04 2016 20:19 GMT
#106397
On October 05 2016 05:16 zlefin wrote:
Stupid CNN, they have a countdown clock until the debate; we know when it's on, we don't need a gardang countdown clock!

When is it? I don't think I'll stay awake for it, but even so.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-04 20:20:48
October 04 2016 20:20 GMT
#106398
9pm EDT, so 4 hours 40 minutes from now.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
October 04 2016 20:21 GMT
#106399
On October 05 2016 05:16 zlefin wrote:
Stupid CNN, they have a countdown clock until the debate; we know when it's on, we don't need a gardang countdown clock!


I dont really watch CNN here in Canada but I was flying out of JFK yesterday and it was on in the lounge and I wasnt sure if I was watching promos for a big ticket boxing match or a debate. It was so hilariously bad. Its quite depressing and pathetic.
CorsairHero
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada9491 Posts
October 04 2016 20:29 GMT
#106400
clinton foundation documents released and it wasn't even from wikileaks. It's on /r/all if you want to see for yourself
© Current year.
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