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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 11 2016 13:24 GMT
#94141
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 11 2016 13:26 GMT
#94142
I love the people that argue that we should have kept troops in Iraq when both the people of Iraq and the US supported pulling them out. That somehow keeping unwanted troops in Iraq would automatically mean less violence.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-11 13:35:07
August 11 2016 13:29 GMT
#94143
On August 11 2016 22:26 Plansix wrote:
I love the people that argue that we should have kept troops in Iraq when both the people of Iraq and the US supported pulling them out. That somehow keeping unwanted troops in Iraq would automatically mean less violence.


It's idiotic anyway, because even if troops would've stayed, it wouldn't have been a standing army of 50.000 soldiers ready to war, but 5.000 people training iraqis to be "self sufficient". 5.000 soldiers on paper sounds like a lot, until you realize that it's not enough to even defend one or two cities - because at least a third of that, if not more, would be logistics, or non-combat personal.

edit: i assume i found the "source" of Trumps claim.

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/obama-create-isis-muslim-brotherhood-failed-egypt/

Disclaimer: i'm not responsible for any braincells that you lose while reading.
edit2: that's btw just one of many similar pages, called "redstate" and other stupid shit.
On track to MA1950A.
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5296 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-11 13:55:12
August 11 2016 13:50 GMT
#94144
was going to argue on this but i'll just quote someone(s) with whom i share most of the points on this issue so if you don't like it, take it up with them.
http://www.floppingaces.net/2015/05/19/the-truth-about-the-status-of-forces-agreement/
from + Show Spoiler +
Marc Thiessen

Then Hillary Rodham Clinton declared during the book tour for her memoir that Obama’s “failure” to arm and train Free Syrian Army rebels “left a big vacuum, which the jihadists have now filled.”

Now comes Leon Panetta with a new memoir, “Worthy Fights,” in which he lays responsibility for the withdrawal of U.S. forces and the rise of the Islamic State where it belongs — directly at Obama’s feet.

Panetta writes that he warned Obama of the danger of withdrawing all U.S. troops from Iraq: “My fear, as I voiced to the President and others was that if the country split apart or slid back into the violence that we’d seen in the years immediately following the U.S. invasion, it could become a new haven for terrorists to plot attacks against the U.S.” But when he and Obama’s military commanders recommended keeping 24,000 troops, “the President’s team at the White House pushed back, and the differences occasionally became heated.” The White House, Panetta says, was “so eager to rid itself of Iraq that it was willing to withdraw rather than lock in arrangements that would preserve our influence and interests.” Now, “the ISIS offensive in 2014 greatly increases the risk that Iraq will become al-Qaeda’s next safe haven. That is exactly what it had in Afghanistan pre-9/11.”

Leon Panetta’s Worthy Fights, page 392-4:

When President Obama announced the end of our combat mission in August 2010, he’d acknowledged that we would maintain troops for a while. As he put it, “Going forward, a transitional force of U.S. troops will remain in Iraq with a different mission: advising and assisting Iraq’s security forces; supporting Iraqi troops in targeted counterterrorism missions; and protecting our civilians. Consistent with our agreement with the Iraqi government, all U.S. troops will leave by the end of next year.” Now that the deadline was upon us, however, it was clear to me- and many others- that withdrawing all our forces would endanger the fragile stability then barely holding Iraq together.

~~~

We had leverage.

~~~

My fear, as I voiced to the president and others, was that if the country split apart or slid back into the pervasive violence that we’d experienced in the years immediately following the U.S. invasion,it could become a new haven for terrorists to plot attacks against the United States. Iraqi’s stability thus, in my view, was not only ini raqS’ interest but ours. With that in mind, I privately and publicly advocated leaving behind a residual force that could provide training and security for Iraq’s military.

Michele Flournoy did her best to press that position, which reflected not just my views but also those of the military commanders in the region and the Joint Chiefs. But the president’s team at the White House pushed back, and the differences occasionally became heated. Flournoy argued our case, and those on our side of the debate viewed the White House as so eager to rid itself of Iraq that it was willing to withdraw rather than lock in arrangements that would preserve our influence and interests.

We debated with Maliki even as we debated among ourselves, with time running out. The clock wound down in December, and Ash Carter continued to argue our case, extending the deadline for the Iraqis to act, hoping that we might pull out a last-minute agreement and recognizing that once our forces left it would be essentially impossible for them to turn around and return. To my frustration, the White House coordinated the negotiations but never really led them. Officials there seemed content to endorse an agreement if State and Defense could reach one, but without the president’s active advocacy, Mailiki was allowed to slip away. The deal never materialized. To this day, I believe that a small, focused U.S. troop presence in Iraq could have effectively advised the Iraqi military on how to deal with Al Qaeda’s resurgence and the sectarian violence that has engulfed the country.

to + Show Spoiler +
July 14, 2008: Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama meets with Maliki during his tour of the region. In a subsequent interview with Der Spiegel Magazine, Maliki is quoted as supporting Obama’s 16‐month withdrawal plan; 69 soon after the article is released, however, Maliki distances himself from perceptions that he is actively endorsing Obama. Another article discusses the possibility that during his visit Obama asked Iraqi negotiators to delay any security agreement until after the elections and a new administration was in place.

Here’s the original article by Amir Taheri:

WHILE campaigning in public for a speedy withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, Sen. Barack Obama has tried in private to persuade Iraqi leaders to delay an agreement on a draw-down of the American military presence.

According to Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari, Obama made his demand for delay a key theme of his discussions with Iraqi leaders in Baghdad in July.

“He asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington,” Zebari said in an interview.

~~~

Obama has made many contradictory statements with regard to Iraq. His latest position is that US combat troops should be out by 2010. Yet his effort to delay an agreement would make that withdrawal deadline impossible to meet.

Supposing he wins, Obama’s administration wouldn’t be fully operational before February – and naming a new ambassador to Baghdad and forming a new negotiation team might take longer still.

By then, Iraq will be in the throes of its own campaign season. Judging by the past two elections, forming a new coalition government may then take three months. So the Iraqi negotiating team might not be in place until next June.

Then, judging by how long the current talks have taken, restarting the process from scratch would leave the two sides needing at least six months to come up with a draft accord. That puts us at May 2010 for when the draft might be submitted to the Iraqi parliament – which might well need another six months to pass it into law.

Thus, the 2010 deadline fixed by Obama is a meaningless concept, thrown in as a sop to his anti-war base.

Oh, my….this next part:

Iraqi leaders are divided over the US election. Iraqi President Jalal Talabani (whose party is a member of the Socialist International) sees Obama as “a man of the Left” – who, once elected, might change his opposition to Iraq’s liberation. Indeed, say Talabani’s advisers, a President Obama might be tempted to appropriate the victory that America has already won in Iraq by claiming that his intervention transformed failure into success.

Maliki’s advisers have persuaded him that Obama will win – but the prime minister worries about the senator’s “political debt to the anti-war lobby” – which is determined to transform Iraq into a disaster to prove that toppling Saddam Hussein was “the biggest strategic blunder in US history.”

Other prominent Iraqi leaders, such as Vice President Adel Abdul-Mahdi and Kurdish regional President Massoud Barzani, believe that Sen. John McCain would show “a more realistic approach to Iraqi issues.”

Obama has given Iraqis the impression that he doesn’t want Iraq to appear anything like a success, let alone a victory, for America. The reason? He fears that the perception of US victory there might revive the Bush Doctrine of “pre-emptive” war – that is, removing a threat before it strikes at America.

and then some more.

Edit: this maybe - + Show Spoiler +
Former President George W. Bush’s administration signed an agreement in 2008 to withdraw all troops from Iraq by the end of 2011, but policymakers in that administration always expected that agreement to be renegotiated to allow for an extension beyond that deadline, former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told The Cable.

When President Barack Obama announced on Oct. 21 that he would withdraw all U.S. troops from Iraq by Dec. 31, his top advisors contended that since the Bush administration had signed the 2008 Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA), both administrations believed that all troops should be withdrawn by the end of the year. This was part of the Obama administration’s drive to de-emphasize their failed negotiations to renegotiate that agreement and frame the withdrawal as the fulfillment of a campaign promise to end the Iraq war.

~~~

Rice, speaking with The Cable to promote her new book No Higher Honor, said today that when the Bush administration signed the agreement, it was understood by both the U.S. and Iraqi governments that there would be follow-up negotiations aimed at extending the deadline — a step that would be in both the U.S. and Iraqi interest.

“There was an expectation that we would negotiate something that looked like a residual force for our training with the Iraqis,” Rice said. “Everybody believed it would be better if there was some kind of residual force.”

Rice said the Iraqi government, despite SOFA’s Jan. 2012 end date, was not only open to a new agreement that would include an extension for U.S. troops, but expected that a new agreement would eventually be signed.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10132 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-11 14:02:27
August 11 2016 13:55 GMT
#94145
5.000 man, and the training they could provide, not to speak about the much needed morale, it's very probable that would had managed to held off the initial clashes (look up the actual numbers of ISIL combatants in the early days), which gave the ISIS a lot of momentum. Only when ISIL managed to grab a hold on Iraq, it started to be something to be aware off. You guys are being completely dishonest while trying to put a rebuttal to his point. Sure, he is wrong when he says that it was agreed on Bush administration, but not keeping peacemaking forces on the ground was a mistake (through negotiation obviously).

Wether you play the republican card and blame the intelligence agencies or not, i don't care. To be honest it could be very well truth. But don't downplay it as it wasn't a screw up.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-11 14:09:58
August 11 2016 14:03 GMT
#94146
On August 11 2016 22:55 Godwrath wrote:
5.000 man, and the training they could provide, it's very probable that would had managed to held off the initial clashes (look up the actual numbers of ISIL combatants in the early days), which gave the ISIS a lot of momentum. Only when ISIL managed to grab a hold on Iraq, it started to be something to be aware off. You guys are being completely dishonest while trying to put a rebuttal to his point. Sure, he is wrong when he says that it was agreed on Bush administration, but not keeping peacemaking forces on the ground was a mistake (through negotiation obviously).

Wether you play the republican card and blame the intelligence agencies or not, i don't care. To be honest it could be very well truth. But don't downplay it as it wasn't a screw up.


That's arguing that they would've attacked into that line in the first place. Which is dumb. They could've just gone further into Nigeria (Boko Haram ring a bell?), or anywhere quite literally.

And no. I'm not saying it was handled well. I'm saying blaming Obama for "founding" ISIS or "letting it grow" when he literally couldn't do anything (because that's dishonest on your part, you're just assuming ISIL wouldn't exist with troops in Iraq because clearly, they couldn't have gone anywhere else) to stop something that was already started decades down the line.

It's less of a "president X fuckup" than more a "US FP/intelligence fuckup". And btw, i don't blame intelligence agencies, it's a known fact that they fought a proxy war through rebels in Afghanistan against the soviets. One of the most blazing names in islamic terrorism is the result of that - and pretty much everything that came after.

edit: actually, the most blazing name.
On track to MA1950A.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 11 2016 14:07 GMT
#94147
“I was going to argue about this, but instead let me post a link so some unknown internet rando with dubious expertise in the subject who wrote a tiny novel about the subject. Please read and then respond to this link that I put a lot of time into.”

Only shit I have brain damage from reading that.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28709 Posts
August 11 2016 14:16 GMT
#94148
I think it's definitely possible to make the argument that Obama did not have to withdraw and that the decision allowed IS to thrive, but that in no way makes Trump's statement 'Obama FOUNDED ISIS' any less retarded. I'm seriously getting pretty sick of this absolute nonsense and how people are bending over backwards to try to make Trump intellectually palatable, but this is just stupid bullshit. The ridiculous exaggeration from the Trump camp is making it impossible to have any type of civil, political discourse and this is a case where the blame for the negative shift in the political climate almost solely rests on his shoulders, because when it comes to peddling bullshit, he is far guiltier than any other politician with any serious amount of traction from either side of the political aisle.

Really looking forward to the end of this election..
Moderator
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10132 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-11 14:31:59
August 11 2016 14:29 GMT
#94149
That's arguing that they would've attacked into that line in the first place. Which is dumb. They could've just gone further into Nigeria, or anywhere quite literally.

What? Do you think they would had managed to get their propaganda going from Nigeria ?

And that's the very definition of "letting it grow". It doesn't have to mean that you purposefully did, but that irresponsible actions could had lead to that. Yes, Trump is a dummy, but you don't have the right to downplay everything and swep it under the rug because of it. It's this kind of attitude which puts him in the place he is nowadays, because noone wants to say this kind of stuff, and only a buffoon is doing it (and with shitty arguments such as founding).

Yes, i am assuming that ISIL would had never managed to get a hold on Iraq, which was ultimately what made them noteworthy, if there were troops on the ground to stop them and to properly train the iraqi army which was dismantled by the US before. My assumption is based on the low numbers of ISIL fighters which overran the badly trained and disciplined Iraqi forces. And i am pretty sure we already said what he could had done, maybe it's not me being dishonest, and you not reading properly ?

How many decades it started before, if you have information of what is going on makes it even more important to keep peacekeeping forces on the ground, and more irresponsible to withdraw them if your country is actually heavily invested into the issue itself.
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5296 Posts
August 11 2016 14:31 GMT
#94150
On August 11 2016 23:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think it's definitely possible to make the argument that Obama did not have to withdraw and that the decision allowed IS to thrive, but that in no way makes Trump's statement 'Obama FOUNDED ISIS' any less retarded. I'm seriously getting pretty sick of this absolute nonsense and how people are bending over backwards to try to make Trump intellectually palatable, but this is just stupid bullshit. The ridiculous exaggeration from the Trump camp is making it impossible to have any type of civil, political discourse and this is a case where the blame for the negative shift in the political climate almost solely rests on his shoulders, because when it comes to peddling bullshit, he is far guiltier than any other politician with any serious amount of traction from either side of the political aisle.

Really looking forward to the end of this election..

yea well how's Plansix any better?: - statements from ex CIA head, State departments chief, commander of American forces in Iraq in 2011, countless experts/professors in foreign policy, Iraq officials/ministers and he's like: but my feelings are better than yours!.
he's the embodiment of Trump.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-11 14:39:06
August 11 2016 14:38 GMT
#94151
On August 11 2016 23:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think it's definitely possible to make the argument that Obama did not have to withdraw and that the decision allowed IS to thrive, but that in no way makes Trump's statement 'Obama FOUNDED ISIS' any less retarded. I'm seriously getting pretty sick of this absolute nonsense and how people are bending over backwards to try to make Trump intellectually palatable, but this is just stupid bullshit. The ridiculous exaggeration from the Trump camp is making it impossible to have any type of civil, political discourse and this is a case where the blame for the negative shift in the political climate almost solely rests on his shoulders, because when it comes to peddling bullshit, he is far guiltier than any other politician with any serious amount of traction from either side of the political aisle.

Really looking forward to the end of this election..

Founder and co-founder may be a little aggressive, but Hillary and Obama were certainly the equivalent of Series A investors with all of the weapons that they funneled to Syria to topple Assad.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
August 11 2016 14:40 GMT
#94152
Trump denying that the Secret Service spoke with his campaign and that Reince Priebus told him the party would focus on down ballot races if Trump didn't change direction. Simply denying it, lying through his teeth.

In case there were any lingering beliefs that Trump is a viable President.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 11 2016 14:40 GMT
#94153
There were always people that were going to talk about the merits of remaining in Iraq and that we should have stayed longer. There are merits to both arguments. But that doesn’t change the fact that the elected government we set up ask our troops to leave and set conditions for the remaining troops we were not willing to accept. The only way we keep troops in Iraq is against the will of the democratic government we set up. We would become a hostile occupying force in their eyes.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-11 14:43:53
August 11 2016 14:43 GMT
#94154
On August 11 2016 23:38 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2016 23:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think it's definitely possible to make the argument that Obama did not have to withdraw and that the decision allowed IS to thrive, but that in no way makes Trump's statement 'Obama FOUNDED ISIS' any less retarded. I'm seriously getting pretty sick of this absolute nonsense and how people are bending over backwards to try to make Trump intellectually palatable, but this is just stupid bullshit. The ridiculous exaggeration from the Trump camp is making it impossible to have any type of civil, political discourse and this is a case where the blame for the negative shift in the political climate almost solely rests on his shoulders, because when it comes to peddling bullshit, he is far guiltier than any other politician with any serious amount of traction from either side of the political aisle.

Really looking forward to the end of this election..

Founder and co-founder may be a little aggressive, but Hillary and Obama were certainly the equivalent of Series A investors with all of the weapons that they funneled to Syria to topple Assad.


I thought Obama waited a long time to send weapons? Basically until after ISIS conquered territory? Pretty sure Republican leaders have argued that Obama should have been arming Syrian moderates earlier.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-11 14:49:19
August 11 2016 14:47 GMT
#94155
On August 11 2016 23:38 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2016 23:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think it's definitely possible to make the argument that Obama did not have to withdraw and that the decision allowed IS to thrive, but that in no way makes Trump's statement 'Obama FOUNDED ISIS' any less retarded. I'm seriously getting pretty sick of this absolute nonsense and how people are bending over backwards to try to make Trump intellectually palatable, but this is just stupid bullshit. The ridiculous exaggeration from the Trump camp is making it impossible to have any type of civil, political discourse and this is a case where the blame for the negative shift in the political climate almost solely rests on his shoulders, because when it comes to peddling bullshit, he is far guiltier than any other politician with any serious amount of traction from either side of the political aisle.

Really looking forward to the end of this election..

Founder and co-founder may be a little aggressive, but Hillary and Obama were certainly the equivalent of Series A investors with all of the weapons that they funneled to Syria to topple Assad.


I like the analogy (btw, do you work in VC?), but I'd add that they're more like the convertible note guy (with a really great discount convert price and high interest) who think there's some potential there, but it's been mucked up by the series A (Bush) and founders (al-Maliki). Oh, and the company is cobbled together by a predecessor company that sucked (Saddam) with a bunch of murky corporate history before.

So Silicon Valley Bank, basically.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10132 Posts
August 11 2016 14:53 GMT
#94156
On August 11 2016 23:40 Plansix wrote:
There were always people that were going to talk about the merits of remaining in Iraq and that we should have stayed longer. There are merits to both arguments. But that doesn’t change the fact that the elected government we set up ask our troops to leave and set conditions for the remaining troops we were not willing to accept. The only way we keep troops in Iraq is against the will of the democratic government we set up. We would become a hostile occupying force in their eyes.

Yes and no. From the quotes that were linked a page back.

Iraqi leaders had wanted 5,000 US troops to remain in a training capacity. But those trainers would not have received immunity from prosecution under Iraqi law.


There is something that could had been done, but i don't think Obama wanted or could keep forces in there because of his vocal oppossition to the Iraq war while still being on first mandate. I do think it was an electoralist decission.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
August 11 2016 14:54 GMT
#94157
No immunity for the 5k was the issue
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10132 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-11 14:57:10
August 11 2016 14:56 GMT
#94158
On August 11 2016 23:54 ticklishmusic wrote:
No immunity for the 5k was the issue

That could had been negotiated if there was will for it.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43232 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-11 15:00:18
August 11 2016 14:58 GMT
#94159
Obama would have been raked over the coals if one US serviceman had to spend one day in an Iraqi prison under Iraqi authority. And quite rightly so, he has an obligation to protect them and by letting them fall into foreign control he'd be responsible for their treatment. Treatment in the context of Abu Ghraib etc too.

Maybe you call it just smart politicking if you're on the right but whichever way you see it, Obama recognized that he had an obligation, or at least a perceived obligation, to protect the soldiers and he upheld it. If you don't want to give him credit you call him a cynic but you can't deny that if he had ordered them to stay and be subject to Iraqi justice you'd have attacked him for betraying them.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
August 11 2016 14:58 GMT
#94160
On August 11 2016 23:56 Godwrath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2016 23:54 ticklishmusic wrote:
No immunity for the 5k was the issue

That could had been negotiated if there was will for it.


I'll take your word for it.
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