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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10126 Posts
On July 29 2016 21:51 farvacola wrote: It's also worth mentioning that weighing the importance of apparent empathy in relation to leadership skills generally is also arguable and subjective. We just need to elect the correct kind of psycho i guess. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
I'm going to apologize for the direction of the response. I'm not a morning person. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:05 Lord Tolkien wrote: I think I saw your post in my quotes. I'm going to apologize for the direction of the response. I'm not a morning person. Tell me about it, today my "fully automated coffee machine" (that's a weird translation, Kaffeevollautomat in german) broke when i tried to get a coffee. Day can't get worse. | ||
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
On July 29 2016 21:58 m4ini wrote: I've given you an, even if anecdotal, example that lawyers certainly do feel bad usually if they defend something that doesn't go in line with their personal morals. In fact i'd argue that someone who can just bury his/her morals under the disguise of "it's just a job" is an incredibly dishonest person and certainly not someone i'd like to give power to start wars. To be clear: i don't think that trump is any better in that regard. I'm trying to point out that HRC is not an ounce better. Oh, and empathy is an incredibly important trait for leadership. Or, lets say, charisma. Of which HRC has none either. Which is horrendously obvious if she's talking with, or right after, someone who has spades of it. Or do you want to tell me otherwise? Yeah, right. I'll ignore your comments until you actually understand what i've said. Farva did, so you are the problem, not what i said. It's one thing to disagree, it's another entirely to not understand what is said and then throw one straw man after another. Given that I'm about to start my last year of law school and I personally think that putting morals aside is actually quite important for legal advocates, I doubt we'll agree on that point. Moreover, I also don't think charisma in the sense you're describing is all that important either, so I dunno what to tell you. Given her tenure as SoS, I think it should be clear that Hillary has some kind of charisma, I just don't think it matches with the kind you're offering. Oh well?  | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:08 farvacola wrote: Given that I'm about to start my last year of law school and I personally think that putting morals aside is actually quite important for legs advocates, I doubt we'll agree on that point. Moreover, I also don't think charisma in the sense you're describing is all that important either, so I dunno what to tell you. Given her tenure as SoS, I think it should be clear that Hillsry has some kind of charisma, I just don't think it matches with the kind you're offering. Oh well? We certainly don't need to agree on anything in the first place. And it doesn't really matter if you think charisma "is all that important" or not, just look back in history. You'll find that most, if not all "important" or "famous" politicians were charismatic. Or shot. Or both. And these are the people that can move your country, because they can convince you that it's better that way. In that regard you should be incredibly happy that Trump is just as bad - a charismatic populist literally can turn your country upside down. And that happened multiple times in history, not just in germany (although, there it had the biggest "outcome"). And what kind of charisma are you suggesting she has? Must've flown past me, but i'm eager to learn. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:05 Lord Tolkien wrote: I think I saw your post in my quotes. I'm going to apologize for the direction of the response. I'm not a morning person. Hey man cant wait for the election just to see which one of us gets the 1 year ban! :D Also my comment about Hitler and Stalin was so fckin dumb i dont know why I post that stuff. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:15 Plansix wrote: If we are going to talk about not great people being elected, we have plenty of examples in the US, from Nixon to Jackson. I could debate the good things both did, but the terrible vastly outweighs them.(Nixon more than Jackson) That's just normal though. You can't have a JFK in every election, so there's ought to be some bad choices to be made. Although, imho, you did well last election. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:11 m4ini wrote: We certainly don't need to agree on anything in the first place. And it doesn't really matter if you think charisma "is all that important" or not, just look back in history. You'll find that most, if not all "important" or "famous" politicians were charismatic. Or shot. Or both. And these are the people that can move your country, because they can convince you that it's better that way. In that regard you should be incredibly happy that Trump is just as bad - a charismatic populist literally can turn your country upside down. And that happened multiple times in history, not just in germany (although, there it had the biggest "outcome"). And what kind of charisma are you suggesting she has? Must've flown past me, but i'm eager to learn. I'll have to find some source material on the subject but, barring the admittedly controversial FP events like what happened in Libya, I think it's well accepted that Hillary was well-received by other countries and did a good job in terms of effecting US diplomacy. That's the kind of charisma I'm talking about. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10126 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:24 ticklishmusic wrote: JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife. Gave a good speech though. Roosevelt in the other hand would be a much better example imo. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:24 ticklishmusic wrote: JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife. Well he only prevented WW3, so in that regard, i rate him rather highly. Imagine Trump in the cuba crisis, that's a fun thought. I don't know what "bungled" means, i assume botched - i don't know enough about this to comment, would need to read up on it. I don't think that you can judge a president by his military failures though, because that's a relatively common theme between US presidents. Same with the cheating btw. I'll have to find some source material on the subject but, barring the admittedly controversial FP events like what happened in Libya, I think it's well accepted that Hillary was well-received by other countries and did a good job in terms of effecting US diplomacy. That's the kind of charisma I'm talking about. So barring the "most important mistakes we ever made", she's well received, except pretty much everywhere in the middle east that isn't saudi? That's amazing charisma. Apart from obviously, that has nothing to do with charisma. That's decisions. Decisions have zero impact on charisma. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:26 Godwrath wrote: Roosevelt in the other hand would be a much better example imo. I am going to assume FDR, as opposed to Teddy. And even he fucked some stuff up. Hell both of them were far from perfect. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:28 m4ini wrote: Well he only prevented WW3, so in that regard, i rate him rather highly. Imagine Trump in the cuba crisis, that's a fun thought. I don't know what "bungled" means, i assume botched - i don't know enough about this to comment, would need to read up on it. I don't think that you can judge a president by his military failures though, because that's a relatively common theme between US presidents. Same with the cheating btw. Yeah bungled = botched. If he hadn't messed up Bay of Pigs, tensions with Cuba may never have escalated and resulted in the Cuban Missile Crisis. It was a foolish operation that probably shouldn't have happened in the first place (though we have the benefit of hindsight I suppose). He waffled and half-assed it by not giving the rebels the support they really needed because he wanted plausible deniability if the invasion failed. Ironically, not giving the rebels the support they needed contributed to their failure and it was pretty obvious the US gov/ CIA were behind it anyways. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:29 ticklishmusic wrote: Yeah bungled = botched. If he hadn't messed up Bay of Pigs, tensions with Cuba may never have escalated and resulted in the Cuban Missile Crisis. It was a foolish operation that probably shouldn't have happened in the first place (though we have the benefit of hindsight I suppose). He waffled and half-assed it by not giving the rebels the support they really needed because he wanted plausible deniability if the invasion failed. Ironically, not giving the rebels the support they needed contributed to their failure and it was pretty obvious the US gov/ CIA were behind it anyways. Again, i can't really judge it - i learned about the cuba crisis in school, but Bay of Pigs never made it to german classrooms. At least not to mine back then. Maybe i was wrong, and he wasn't a good president - might well be, we germans mostly relate to him because of the "ick bin ein berliner". I should've said charismatic, especially in regards to FP, maybe that would've fitted better. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10126 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:28 Plansix wrote: I am going to assume FDR, as opposed to Teddy. And even he fucked some stuff up. Hell both of them were far from perfect. Yep, FDR. And perfect, you won't find anyone. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:35 m4ini wrote: Again, i can't really judge it - i learned about the cuba crisis in school, but Bay of Pigs never made it to german classrooms. At least not to mine back then. Maybe i was wrong, and he wasn't a good president - might well be, we germans mostly relate to him because of the "ick bin ein berliner". I should've said charismatic, especially in regards to FP, maybe that would've fitted better. JFK wasn't bad persay, but he is vastly overrated. He had very few accomplishments as a president though its hardly his fault due to his premature demise. It's just unlikely that he would be viewed so positively if had served his full term. Probably a charismatic but pretty average president, and then a solid member of the party for several decades thereafter. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:39 ticklishmusic wrote: JFK wasn't bad persay, but he is vastly overrated. He had very few accomplishments as a president though its hardly his fault due to his premature demise. It's just unlikely that he would be viewed so positively if had served his full term. I'll go with your opinion on that then, i can't really tell since his domestic politics aren't that well known. At least not to me. Scrap JFK (although i stand by my opinion that he was really good in FP), put in Roosevelt. edit: Out of interest, the three "best" republican presidents, who'd they be, according to the US? Not trying to make an argument, i just realized that most of the presidents i'd like to get another term are democrats, so it's just for my education. | ||
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Reivax
Sweden214 Posts
Note that the Vox afaik is very left-leaning and Ezra Klein has apparently had a left-leaning slant during his whole career (my research extends to 5 minutes of googling). So the article is definitely not written by an unbiased writer, but it's well-written and gives some insights in how she apparently has been able to succeded despite a somewhat wooden personality. Was a good read for me. Wasn't FDR also a serial philanderer according to strong rumors by the way? | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On July 29 2016 22:24 ticklishmusic wrote: JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife. Gave a good speech though. this is kind of nuts coming from one of the biggest hillary/clinton supporters in this thread | ||
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