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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4576

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10126 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-29 13:06:19
July 29 2016 13:04 GMT
#91501
On July 29 2016 21:51 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2016 21:42 m4ini wrote:
I thought it was clear she did in that interview?

Laughter can have many connotations. In context, it sounds very much like a bitter laugh.


That's arguable, and subjective. Both what you deduct from the interview, and if that was a bitter laugh, because to me clearly it didn't sound like that.

edit: in fact, that's something that makes her extremely unlikable. She's like Merkel in that regard. Zero visible or audible empathy. If Obama is "sad", you can see and hear that. Regardless if it's acting or not. Hillary, like Merkel, is like a robot.

It's also worth mentioning that weighing the importance of apparent empathy in relation to leadership skills generally is also arguable and subjective.

We just need to elect the correct kind of psycho i guess.
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12083 Posts
July 29 2016 13:05 GMT
#91502
I think I saw your post in my quotes.


I'm going to apologize for the direction of the response. I'm not a morning person.
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-29 13:07:11
July 29 2016 13:06 GMT
#91503
On July 29 2016 22:05 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I think I saw your post in my quotes.


I'm going to apologize for the direction of the response. I'm not a morning person.


Tell me about it, today my "fully automated coffee machine" (that's a weird translation, Kaffeevollautomat in german) broke when i tried to get a coffee. Day can't get worse.
On track to MA1950A.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-29 13:23:52
July 29 2016 13:08 GMT
#91504
On July 29 2016 21:58 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2016 21:51 farvacola wrote:
On July 29 2016 21:42 m4ini wrote:
I thought it was clear she did in that interview?

Laughter can have many connotations. In context, it sounds very much like a bitter laugh.


That's arguable, and subjective. Both what you deduct from the interview, and if that was a bitter laugh, because to me clearly it didn't sound like that.

edit: in fact, that's something that makes her extremely unlikable. She's like Merkel in that regard. Zero visible or audible empathy. If Obama is "sad", you can see and hear that. Regardless if it's acting or not. Hillary, like Merkel, is like a robot.

Given that you've now admitted that interpreting her cherry picked reaction is arguable and subjective, it should be pretty clear why highlighting the oftentimes very difficult to navigate moral implications of defense lawyering is not "incredibly dishonest." It genuinely seems like the poster of the video doesn't understand how our legal system works, so I asked.

It's also worth mentioning that weighing the importance of apparent empathy in relation to leadership skills generally is also arguable and subjective.


I've given you an, even if anecdotal, example that lawyers certainly do feel bad usually if they defend something that doesn't go in line with their personal morals. In fact i'd argue that someone who can just bury his/her morals under the disguise of "it's just a job" is an incredibly dishonest person and certainly not someone i'd like to give power to start wars.

To be clear: i don't think that trump is any better in that regard. I'm trying to point out that HRC is not an ounce better.

Oh, and empathy is an incredibly important trait for leadership. Or, lets say, charisma. Of which HRC has none either. Which is horrendously obvious if she's talking with, or right after, someone who has spades of it.

Or do you want to tell me otherwise?

Show nested quote +
Your angry at her for doing a good Job.


Yeah, right. I'll ignore your comments until you actually understand what i've said. Farva did, so you are the problem, not what i said. It's one thing to disagree, it's another entirely to not understand what is said and then throw one straw man after another.

Given that I'm about to start my last year of law school and I personally think that putting morals aside is actually quite important for legal advocates, I doubt we'll agree on that point. Moreover, I also don't think charisma in the sense you're describing is all that important either, so I dunno what to tell you. Given her tenure as SoS, I think it should be clear that Hillary has some kind of charisma, I just don't think it matches with the kind you're offering. Oh well?
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-29 13:16:04
July 29 2016 13:11 GMT
#91505
On July 29 2016 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2016 21:58 m4ini wrote:
On July 29 2016 21:51 farvacola wrote:
On July 29 2016 21:42 m4ini wrote:
I thought it was clear she did in that interview?

Laughter can have many connotations. In context, it sounds very much like a bitter laugh.


That's arguable, and subjective. Both what you deduct from the interview, and if that was a bitter laugh, because to me clearly it didn't sound like that.

edit: in fact, that's something that makes her extremely unlikable. She's like Merkel in that regard. Zero visible or audible empathy. If Obama is "sad", you can see and hear that. Regardless if it's acting or not. Hillary, like Merkel, is like a robot.

Given that you've now admitted that interpreting her cherry picked reaction is arguable and subjective, it should be pretty clear why highlighting the oftentimes very difficult to navigate moral implications of defense lawyering is not "incredibly dishonest." It genuinely seems like the poster of the video doesn't understand how our legal system works, so I asked.

It's also worth mentioning that weighing the importance of apparent empathy in relation to leadership skills generally is also arguable and subjective.


I've given you an, even if anecdotal, example that lawyers certainly do feel bad usually if they defend something that doesn't go in line with their personal morals. In fact i'd argue that someone who can just bury his/her morals under the disguise of "it's just a job" is an incredibly dishonest person and certainly not someone i'd like to give power to start wars.

To be clear: i don't think that trump is any better in that regard. I'm trying to point out that HRC is not an ounce better.

Oh, and empathy is an incredibly important trait for leadership. Or, lets say, charisma. Of which HRC has none either. Which is horrendously obvious if she's talking with, or right after, someone who has spades of it.

Or do you want to tell me otherwise?

Your angry at her for doing a good Job.


Yeah, right. I'll ignore your comments until you actually understand what i've said. Farva did, so you are the problem, not what i said. It's one thing to disagree, it's another entirely to not understand what is said and then throw one straw man after another.

Given that I'm about to start my last year of law school and I personally think that putting morals aside is actually quite important for legs advocates, I doubt we'll agree on that point. Moreover, I also don't think charisma in the sense you're describing is all that important either, so I dunno what to tell you. Given her tenure as SoS, I think it should be clear that Hillsry has some kind of charisma, I just don't think it matches with the kind you're offering. Oh well?


We certainly don't need to agree on anything in the first place. And it doesn't really matter if you think charisma "is all that important" or not, just look back in history. You'll find that most, if not all "important" or "famous" politicians were charismatic. Or shot. Or both. And these are the people that can move your country, because they can convince you that it's better that way. In that regard you should be incredibly happy that Trump is just as bad - a charismatic populist literally can turn your country upside down. And that happened multiple times in history, not just in germany (although, there it had the biggest "outcome").

And what kind of charisma are you suggesting she has? Must've flown past me, but i'm eager to learn.
On track to MA1950A.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-29 13:16:29
July 29 2016 13:12 GMT
#91506
On July 29 2016 22:05 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I think I saw your post in my quotes.


I'm going to apologize for the direction of the response. I'm not a morning person.

Hey man cant wait for the election just to see which one of us gets the 1 year ban! :D

Also my comment about Hitler and Stalin was so fckin dumb i dont know why I post that stuff.
sorry for dem one liners
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 29 2016 13:15 GMT
#91507
If we are going to talk about not great people being elected, we have plenty of examples in the US, from Nixon to Jackson. I could debate the good things both did, but the terrible vastly outweighs them.(Nixon more than Jackson)
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
July 29 2016 13:17 GMT
#91508
On July 29 2016 22:15 Plansix wrote:
If we are going to talk about not great people being elected, we have plenty of examples in the US, from Nixon to Jackson. I could debate the good things both did, but the terrible vastly outweighs them.(Nixon more than Jackson)


That's just normal though. You can't have a JFK in every election, so there's ought to be some bad choices to be made. Although, imho, you did well last election.
On track to MA1950A.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-29 13:25:52
July 29 2016 13:24 GMT
#91509
JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife. Gave a good speech though.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
July 29 2016 13:26 GMT
#91510
On July 29 2016 22:11 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2016 22:08 farvacola wrote:
On July 29 2016 21:58 m4ini wrote:
On July 29 2016 21:51 farvacola wrote:
On July 29 2016 21:42 m4ini wrote:
I thought it was clear she did in that interview?

Laughter can have many connotations. In context, it sounds very much like a bitter laugh.


That's arguable, and subjective. Both what you deduct from the interview, and if that was a bitter laugh, because to me clearly it didn't sound like that.

edit: in fact, that's something that makes her extremely unlikable. She's like Merkel in that regard. Zero visible or audible empathy. If Obama is "sad", you can see and hear that. Regardless if it's acting or not. Hillary, like Merkel, is like a robot.

Given that you've now admitted that interpreting her cherry picked reaction is arguable and subjective, it should be pretty clear why highlighting the oftentimes very difficult to navigate moral implications of defense lawyering is not "incredibly dishonest." It genuinely seems like the poster of the video doesn't understand how our legal system works, so I asked.

It's also worth mentioning that weighing the importance of apparent empathy in relation to leadership skills generally is also arguable and subjective.


I've given you an, even if anecdotal, example that lawyers certainly do feel bad usually if they defend something that doesn't go in line with their personal morals. In fact i'd argue that someone who can just bury his/her morals under the disguise of "it's just a job" is an incredibly dishonest person and certainly not someone i'd like to give power to start wars.

To be clear: i don't think that trump is any better in that regard. I'm trying to point out that HRC is not an ounce better.

Oh, and empathy is an incredibly important trait for leadership. Or, lets say, charisma. Of which HRC has none either. Which is horrendously obvious if she's talking with, or right after, someone who has spades of it.

Or do you want to tell me otherwise?

Your angry at her for doing a good Job.


Yeah, right. I'll ignore your comments until you actually understand what i've said. Farva did, so you are the problem, not what i said. It's one thing to disagree, it's another entirely to not understand what is said and then throw one straw man after another.

Given that I'm about to start my last year of law school and I personally think that putting morals aside is actually quite important for legs advocates, I doubt we'll agree on that point. Moreover, I also don't think charisma in the sense you're describing is all that important either, so I dunno what to tell you. Given her tenure as SoS, I think it should be clear that Hillsry has some kind of charisma, I just don't think it matches with the kind you're offering. Oh well?


We certainly don't need to agree on anything in the first place. And it doesn't really matter if you think charisma "is all that important" or not, just look back in history. You'll find that most, if not all "important" or "famous" politicians were charismatic. Or shot. Or both. And these are the people that can move your country, because they can convince you that it's better that way. In that regard you should be incredibly happy that Trump is just as bad - a charismatic populist literally can turn your country upside down. And that happened multiple times in history, not just in germany (although, there it had the biggest "outcome").

And what kind of charisma are you suggesting she has? Must've flown past me, but i'm eager to learn.

I'll have to find some source material on the subject but, barring the admittedly controversial FP events like what happened in Libya, I think it's well accepted that Hillary was well-received by other countries and did a good job in terms of effecting US diplomacy. That's the kind of charisma I'm talking about.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10126 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-29 13:26:52
July 29 2016 13:26 GMT
#91511
On July 29 2016 22:24 ticklishmusic wrote:
JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife. Gave a good speech though.


Roosevelt in the other hand would be a much better example imo.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-29 13:31:49
July 29 2016 13:28 GMT
#91512
On July 29 2016 22:24 ticklishmusic wrote:
JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife.


Well he only prevented WW3, so in that regard, i rate him rather highly. Imagine Trump in the cuba crisis, that's a fun thought.

I don't know what "bungled" means, i assume botched - i don't know enough about this to comment, would need to read up on it. I don't think that you can judge a president by his military failures though, because that's a relatively common theme between US presidents. Same with the cheating btw.

I'll have to find some source material on the subject but, barring the admittedly controversial FP events like what happened in Libya, I think it's well accepted that Hillary was well-received by other countries and did a good job in terms of effecting US diplomacy. That's the kind of charisma I'm talking about.


So barring the "most important mistakes we ever made", she's well received, except pretty much everywhere in the middle east that isn't saudi?

That's amazing charisma. Apart from obviously, that has nothing to do with charisma. That's decisions. Decisions have zero impact on charisma.
On track to MA1950A.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 29 2016 13:28 GMT
#91513
On July 29 2016 22:26 Godwrath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2016 22:24 ticklishmusic wrote:
JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife. Gave a good speech though.


Roosevelt in the other hand would be a much better example imo.

I am going to assume FDR, as opposed to Teddy. And even he fucked some stuff up. Hell both of them were far from perfect.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-29 13:33:03
July 29 2016 13:29 GMT
#91514
On July 29 2016 22:28 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2016 22:24 ticklishmusic wrote:
JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife.


Well he only prevented WW3, so in that regard, i rate him rather highly. Imagine Trump in the cuba crisis, that's a fun thought.

I don't know what "bungled" means, i assume botched - i don't know enough about this to comment, would need to read up on it. I don't think that you can judge a president by his military failures though, because that's a relatively common theme between US presidents. Same with the cheating btw.


Yeah bungled = botched.

If he hadn't messed up Bay of Pigs, tensions with Cuba may never have escalated and resulted in the Cuban Missile Crisis. It was a foolish operation that probably shouldn't have happened in the first place (though we have the benefit of hindsight I suppose). He waffled and half-assed it by not giving the rebels the support they really needed because he wanted plausible deniability if the invasion failed. Ironically, not giving the rebels the support they needed contributed to their failure and it was pretty obvious the US gov/ CIA were behind it anyways.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
July 29 2016 13:35 GMT
#91515
On July 29 2016 22:29 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2016 22:28 m4ini wrote:
On July 29 2016 22:24 ticklishmusic wrote:
JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife.


Well he only prevented WW3, so in that regard, i rate him rather highly. Imagine Trump in the cuba crisis, that's a fun thought.

I don't know what "bungled" means, i assume botched - i don't know enough about this to comment, would need to read up on it. I don't think that you can judge a president by his military failures though, because that's a relatively common theme between US presidents. Same with the cheating btw.


Yeah bungled = botched.

If he hadn't messed up Bay of Pigs, tensions with Cuba may never have escalated and resulted in the Cuban Missile Crisis. It was a foolish operation that probably shouldn't have happened in the first place (though we have the benefit of hindsight I suppose). He waffled and half-assed it by not giving the rebels the support they really needed because he wanted plausible deniability if the invasion failed. Ironically, not giving the rebels the support they needed contributed to their failure and it was pretty obvious the US gov/ CIA were behind it anyways.


Again, i can't really judge it - i learned about the cuba crisis in school, but Bay of Pigs never made it to german classrooms. At least not to mine back then.

Maybe i was wrong, and he wasn't a good president - might well be, we germans mostly relate to him because of the "ick bin ein berliner". I should've said charismatic, especially in regards to FP, maybe that would've fitted better.
On track to MA1950A.
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10126 Posts
July 29 2016 13:38 GMT
#91516
On July 29 2016 22:28 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2016 22:26 Godwrath wrote:
On July 29 2016 22:24 ticklishmusic wrote:
JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife. Gave a good speech though.


Roosevelt in the other hand would be a much better example imo.

I am going to assume FDR, as opposed to Teddy. And even he fucked some stuff up. Hell both of them were far from perfect.

Yep, FDR. And perfect, you won't find anyone.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-29 13:41:37
July 29 2016 13:39 GMT
#91517
On July 29 2016 22:35 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2016 22:29 ticklishmusic wrote:
On July 29 2016 22:28 m4ini wrote:
On July 29 2016 22:24 ticklishmusic wrote:
JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife.


Well he only prevented WW3, so in that regard, i rate him rather highly. Imagine Trump in the cuba crisis, that's a fun thought.

I don't know what "bungled" means, i assume botched - i don't know enough about this to comment, would need to read up on it. I don't think that you can judge a president by his military failures though, because that's a relatively common theme between US presidents. Same with the cheating btw.


Yeah bungled = botched.

If he hadn't messed up Bay of Pigs, tensions with Cuba may never have escalated and resulted in the Cuban Missile Crisis. It was a foolish operation that probably shouldn't have happened in the first place (though we have the benefit of hindsight I suppose). He waffled and half-assed it by not giving the rebels the support they really needed because he wanted plausible deniability if the invasion failed. Ironically, not giving the rebels the support they needed contributed to their failure and it was pretty obvious the US gov/ CIA were behind it anyways.


Again, i can't really judge it - i learned about the cuba crisis in school, but Bay of Pigs never made it to german classrooms. At least not to mine back then.

Maybe i was wrong, and he wasn't a good president - might well be, we germans mostly relate to him because of the "ick bin ein berliner". I should've said charismatic, especially in regards to FP, maybe that would've fitted better.


JFK wasn't bad persay, but he is vastly overrated. He had very few accomplishments as a president though its hardly his fault due to his premature demise. It's just unlikely that he would be viewed so positively if had served his full term. Probably a charismatic but pretty average president, and then a solid member of the party for several decades thereafter.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-29 13:44:54
July 29 2016 13:42 GMT
#91518
On July 29 2016 22:39 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2016 22:35 m4ini wrote:
On July 29 2016 22:29 ticklishmusic wrote:
On July 29 2016 22:28 m4ini wrote:
On July 29 2016 22:24 ticklishmusic wrote:
JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife.


Well he only prevented WW3, so in that regard, i rate him rather highly. Imagine Trump in the cuba crisis, that's a fun thought.

I don't know what "bungled" means, i assume botched - i don't know enough about this to comment, would need to read up on it. I don't think that you can judge a president by his military failures though, because that's a relatively common theme between US presidents. Same with the cheating btw.


Yeah bungled = botched.

If he hadn't messed up Bay of Pigs, tensions with Cuba may never have escalated and resulted in the Cuban Missile Crisis. It was a foolish operation that probably shouldn't have happened in the first place (though we have the benefit of hindsight I suppose). He waffled and half-assed it by not giving the rebels the support they really needed because he wanted plausible deniability if the invasion failed. Ironically, not giving the rebels the support they needed contributed to their failure and it was pretty obvious the US gov/ CIA were behind it anyways.


Again, i can't really judge it - i learned about the cuba crisis in school, but Bay of Pigs never made it to german classrooms. At least not to mine back then.

Maybe i was wrong, and he wasn't a good president - might well be, we germans mostly relate to him because of the "ick bin ein berliner". I should've said charismatic, especially in regards to FP, maybe that would've fitted better.


JFK wasn't bad persay, but he is vastly overrated. He had very few accomplishments as a president though its hardly his fault due to his premature demise. It's just unlikely that he would be viewed so positively if had served his full term.


I'll go with your opinion on that then, i can't really tell since his domestic politics aren't that well known. At least not to me. Scrap JFK (although i stand by my opinion that he was really good in FP), put in Roosevelt.

edit:

Out of interest, the three "best" republican presidents, who'd they be, according to the US? Not trying to make an argument, i just realized that most of the presidents i'd like to get another term are democrats, so it's just for my education.
On track to MA1950A.
Reivax
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden214 Posts
July 29 2016 13:47 GMT
#91519
Yo, m4ini, the type of charisma Clinton seems to have is not immediately identifiable, according to this article: http://www.vox.com/a/hillary-clinton-interview/the-gap-listener-leadership-quality.

Note that the Vox afaik is very left-leaning and Ezra Klein has apparently had a left-leaning slant during his whole career (my research extends to 5 minutes of googling). So the article is definitely not written by an unbiased writer, but it's well-written and gives some insights in how she apparently has been able to succeded despite a somewhat wooden personality. Was a good read for me.



Wasn't FDR also a serial philanderer according to strong rumors by the way?
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
July 29 2016 13:52 GMT
#91520
On July 29 2016 22:24 ticklishmusic wrote:
JFK wasn't even that great, he had the appearance of goodness and was assassinated before that ran out. He bungled the Bay of Pigs invasion and got in a pissing contest with the communists while cheating on his wife. Gave a good speech though.


this is kind of nuts coming from one of the biggest hillary/clinton supporters in this thread
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
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