|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On May 26 2016 07:59 SK.Testie wrote:
I assume most places in Portland still use gendered bathrooms though and not just hipster places virtue signalling.
Also, what of change rooms where the nudity is there without privacy on a far larger scale? Countless changerooms just have benches and lockers, steamrooms and showers without many individual stalls to change in. Should those be gendered?
Yeah, it's just the cringe-levels of trendy places that do shit like that. And I basically rolled my eyes so hard I went blind. But no issues. It really seems totally fine.
I see change rooms as totally different. I don't think the two can be reasonably compared in this issue.
|
Public locker rooms where people walk around naked and shower is really difficult. Personally, I wouldn't care at all, but I can see it being a huge issue among most people.
|
United States44012 Posts
On May 26 2016 08:06 SolaR- wrote:
Public locker rooms where people walk around naked and shower is really difficult. Personally, I wouldn't care at all, but I can see it being a huge issue among most people.
But a lot of people are uncomfortable naked in the locker room with the gays, or even with the blacks. At a certain point those people need to learn that the rest of the world isn't a safe space where reality will change to cater to them. Some people are trans and no amount of being outraged by that will change it. Bigots don't have a right to demand a world without trans people just because they feel triggered.
|
On May 26 2016 08:06 SolaR- wrote:
Public locker rooms where people walk around naked and shower is really difficult. Personally, I wouldn't care at all, but I can see it being a huge issue among most people.
That would be one of the more difficult situations, but I wonder how many trans people would actually use their gender identity/non-birth sex locker rooms like that if they hadn't physically transitioned. I have to imagine that it would be even more awkward for the trans person from the attention they very well may just use their birth sex locker room.
On May 26 2016 08:11 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 08:06 SolaR- wrote:
Public locker rooms where people walk around naked and shower is really difficult. Personally, I wouldn't care at all, but I can see it being a huge issue among most people. But a lot of people are uncomfortable naked in the locker room with the gays, or even with the blacks. At a certain point those people need to learn that the rest of the world isn't a safe space where reality will change to cater to them. Some people are trans and no amount of being outraged by that will change it. Bigots don't have a right to demand a world without trans people just because they feel triggered.
The argument that the world isn't your safe space and that reality doesn't/shouldn't change to cater to a person could be the exact argument used to argue against allowing Trans people into their identified sex bathroom...
|
On May 26 2016 08:11 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 08:06 SolaR- wrote:
Public locker rooms where people walk around naked and shower is really difficult. Personally, I wouldn't care at all, but I can see it being a huge issue among most people. But a lot of people are uncomfortable naked in the locker room with the gays, or even with the blacks. At a certain point those people need to learn that the rest of the world isn't a safe space where reality will change to cater to them. Some people are trans and no amount of being outraged by that will change it. Bigots don't have a right to demand a world without trans people just because they feel triggered.
That's hardly specific to locker rooms because presumably the presence of blacks ought to be equally upsetting at the barber. Your genitals become a little more important to the conversation if the subject is a room of naked people.
|
And in one instance, the majority would be more pleased with the decision than the minority. So we're automatically assuming that the minority is more important than the majority?
I feel that these laws were originally put in place to protect women in the first place as well. It's proven time and time again especially in the military that society and men are extremely protective of women. What caused bathrooms to go gendered in the first place?
Public schools must permit transgender students to use bathrooms and locker rooms consistent with their gender identity, according to an Obama administration directive.
The locker room thing is supposed to be trickier right? Well, the order from on high is that no it isn't trickier. Stop being a bigot.
So is the next step: Must someone dress and act a certain way to identify as that gender? And eventually if not, what's the point of wigs or makeup in the first place. A cute video on it. + Show Spoiler +
Must a man act feminine and must a woman act masculine to identify as that gender? Or can a dainty girl walk into a boys change room and can a football player walk into a girls change room?
This wouldn't be an issue if there weren't such a push that "Gender is a social construct. Check your privilege shitlord."
|
United States44012 Posts
I'd assume that if a man was standing in a woman's locker room helicopter dicking in front of distraught Girl Scouts the police would look into it, even if he claimed to be trans. Genuine trans people will have doctors appointments, therapist records, hormone prescriptions and so forth, all of which could be used as evidence in court and none of which would be available to the helicopter dicking guy. Hell, my UOTC battalion had a trans major and shit was fine. As I recall in the British Army trans people simply are what they present as, no special status, no bullshit, just "some people are trans but you all have a job to do so get on with it".
|
United States44012 Posts
On May 26 2016 08:21 SK.Testie wrote:
And in one instance, the majority would be more pleased with the decision than the minority. So we're automatically assuming that the minority is more important than the majority?
I feel that these laws were originally put in place to protect women in the first place as well. What caused bathrooms to go gendered in the first place?
Prudish Victorian social mores? Again, people don't often get raped in the bathroom, they get raped by their partner or a family member. Gays and lesbians manage to use bathrooms without raping everyone.
|
Talking about comfort. More people feel comfortable one way. But less people feel comfortable the other way. Should we not simply go with the way where more people feel comfortable because it satisfies more people?
That yes, if you look more like a man than a woman perhaps you should use the mans change room because more people will feel comfortable with this? If not, why?
|
United States44012 Posts
On May 26 2016 08:38 SK.Testie wrote:
Talking about comfort. More people feel comfortable one way. But less people feel comfortable the other way. Should we not simply go with the way where more people feel comfortable?
Not when people's comfort requires the oppression of a minority, no. The public were opposed to interracial marriage long after it was legalised. Public opinion is a really bad way of deciding who has rights.
|
But where is the line drawn if gender is a social construct as super ultra progressives say?
|
There was a specific case regarding a trans woman using a changing facility, it even had the bonus of being a college that let local k-12 schools use their pool. So we had a 40+ yo person with male genitalia changing in the same facilities at the same time as young girls.
College threw up some privacy curtains for girls who wanted additional privacy and life has gone on.
Personally I just desperately want some adequate ventilation in more public restrooms. I couldn't care less about which bathroom someone uses (I've never complained when a woman came into the men's room to bypass the line, and used a women's room or two when I couldn't figure out where the men's room was), but no one likes walking into a bathroom someone is either currently or recently dooking in, male, female, or anyone in between.
*edited for clarity and accuracy
|
I mean I can see that becoming a huge issue with trans people who have not changed their genitals yet and are changing in the same room as young children. Many parents would not like expose children to the opposite sex's genitals at such a young age.
Again, personally I don't care and wouldn't be bothered. But I am trying to look at this practically, and I can see this being a slippery slope the more and more we accept anything when it comes to changing rooms and locker rooms.
I think testie makes a valid point, on where do you draw the line? I mean at some point you might as well have unisex locker rooms and changing rooms.
I just asked my girlfriend and she said she wouldn't be comfortable with it and she is a fairly opened minded person. I have a feeling this would make a lot of women uncomfortable.
|
On May 26 2016 08:43 SK.Testie wrote:
But where is the line drawn if gender is a social construct as super ultra progressives say?
I'm not sure which line you're referring to, but the fact that gender is a spectrum and not binary isn't just something suggested by "super ultra progressives" lol.
|
On May 26 2016 09:03 SolaR- wrote:
I mean I can see that becoming a huge issue with trans people who have not changed their genitals yet and are changing in the same room as young children. Many parents would not like expose children to the opposite sex's genitals at such a young age.
Again, personally I don't care and wouldn't be bothered. But I am trying to look at this practically, and I can see this being a slippery slope the more and more we accept anything when it comes to changing rooms and locker rooms.
I think testie makes a valid point, on where do you draw the line? I mean at some point you might as well have unisex locker rooms and changing rooms.
I just asked my girlfriend and she said she wouldn't be comfortable with it and she is a fairly opened minded person. I have a feeling this would make a lot of women uncomfortable.
That's really more of an America kind of thing I think?
As long as it's not porn noone has an issue with kids seeing other people naked over here. Sauna's in Germany are mixed gender, you're all naked there.
There are plenty of all-naked beaches, parks and everything else. Swimming outsides I've heard is a thing in scandinavia etc.
It's really just about what you grow up with being acceptable and that is acceptable for you, for some reason.
|
Most women do complain when a man enters the change room. And again it's going to be unfair, but it's going to go by attractiveness as well.
One of these people will face more discrimination. No matter what you do to change peoples perceptions.
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://16005-presscdn-0-36.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/52-Trans-Man.jpg) vs ![[image loading]](http://www.qwoc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Yollada-Nok-Suanyot1.jpg)
Women in change rooms will complain to the managers about the first person. Especially if the 52 year old is playing in the pool saying she's a 6 year old. They may not even pay attention to the second. So how do we even draw this line? Is what we have at this moment not good enough? Is it oppressive? If so, why? Who determined this and when?
|
Pretty sure that while the conversation has been about toilets, winning toilets means transfolk win change rooms as well, which as others have pointed out, is the bigger issue.
Of course, the media agenda is to give trans people what they want right now, so they're drawing focus to the more easily winnable issue.
But the real winners here are the men wanting to do the helicopter dick in the women's change-room. Gender is something you choose, so what right do courts and judges have demanding proof or medical records from a doctor?
Free the Helicopter Dick!
|
On May 26 2016 09:03 SolaR- wrote:
I mean I can see that becoming a huge issue with trans people who have not changed their genitals yet and are changing in the same room as young children. Many parents would not like expose children to the opposite sex's genitals at such a young age.
Again, personally I don't care and wouldn't be bothered. But I am trying to look at this practically, and I can see this being a slippery slope the more and more we accept anything when it comes to changing rooms and locker rooms.
I think testie makes a valid point, on where do you draw the line? I mean at some point you might as well have unisex locker rooms and changing rooms.
I just asked my girlfriend and she said she wouldn't be comfortable with it and she is a fairly opened minded person. I have a feeling this would make a lot of women uncomfortable.
You separate by public and private rather than by gender and you're done. Add it to the list of infrastructure projects we need.
|
On May 26 2016 09:08 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 09:03 SolaR- wrote:
I mean I can see that becoming a huge issue with trans people who have not changed their genitals yet and are changing in the same room as young children. Many parents would not like expose children to the opposite sex's genitals at such a young age.
Again, personally I don't care and wouldn't be bothered. But I am trying to look at this practically, and I can see this being a slippery slope the more and more we accept anything when it comes to changing rooms and locker rooms.
I think testie makes a valid point, on where do you draw the line? I mean at some point you might as well have unisex locker rooms and changing rooms.
I just asked my girlfriend and she said she wouldn't be comfortable with it and she is a fairly opened minded person. I have a feeling this would make a lot of women uncomfortable. That's really more of an America kind of thing I think? As long as it's not porn noone has an issue with kids seeing other people naked over here. Sauna's in Germany are mixed gender, you're all naked there. There are plenty of all-naked beaches, parks and everything else. Swimming outsides I've heard is a thing in scandinavia etc. It's really just about what you grow up with being acceptable and that is acceptable for you, for some reason.
That's a good point. American culture is much more prude and anti-sex as a whole. Half our country can't even get decent sex education in our public schools, because of how taboo the topic is.
|
On May 26 2016 09:12 SK.Testie wrote:Most women do complain when a man enters the change room. And again it's going to be unfair, but it's going to go by attractiveness as well. One of these people will face more discrimination. No matter what you do to change peoples perceptions.+ Show Spoiler + vs Women in change rooms will complain to the managers about the first person. Especially if the 52 year old is playing in the pool saying she's a 6 year old. They may not even pay attention to the second. So how do we even draw this line? Is what we have at this moment not good enough? Is it oppressive? If so, why? Who determined this and when?
We should be stopping said discrimination, and pointing out that it's not right. If your rights make me feel uncomfortable, the only appropriate response is to tell me to fuck off and for me to get over it. Why the heck should my feelings (or the yuck factor) get to be more important than your basic rights?
We've been down this road before. Many times. Even in bathrooms. Whites needing to share bathrooms with blacks? Ewwwww! Then people got over it. Blacks in the military? Women in the military? Gays in the military? All caused a threat to unit discipline and cohesion... and then the unit got over it (to semi-quote The West Wing). Recognizing and allowing civil rights for minorities is nothing new, and we already know that we're going to progress past this. In a decade from now, we'll think it's ludicrous that we were so keen on discriminating against transgendered people. They're just the hated flavor of the decade.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
