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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
April 14 2016 00:43 GMT
#72101
On April 14 2016 09:11 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Until "statistical significance" is no longer a requirement to get published, every single literature review of the effect of anything with a non-zero effect will be biased away from the null. It's just a mathematical fact. This is a bigger problem than anything involving "reproducibility" which is mostly an artifact of the stupidity of the modern application of the p value and hypothesis testing in settings of effect measurement, alongside a total lack of understanding of what the numbers people are creating in studies actually mean.


Its just stats in action. If you have 95% confidence intervals as a standard 5% will be wrong. But only interesting results will get published widely, so there is a bias for those in the 5% being more recognizable.

Also, I will say, even as an engineer I don't understand all the massaging that certain studies seem to engage in, and how legit or not it is. So I can see why peer review is inadequate.
Freeeeeeedom
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
April 14 2016 00:54 GMT
#72102
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/1800-studies-later-scientists-conclude-homeopathy-doesnt-work-180954534/?no-ist Just something I found.

After assessing more than 1,800 studies on homeopathy, Australia’s National Health and Medical Research Council was only able to find 225 that were rigorous enough to analyze. And a systematic review of these studies revealed “no good quality evidence to support the claim that homeopathy is effective in treating health conditions.”
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
April 14 2016 00:57 GMT
#72103
On April 14 2016 09:43 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2016 09:11 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Until "statistical significance" is no longer a requirement to get published, every single literature review of the effect of anything with a non-zero effect will be biased away from the null. It's just a mathematical fact. This is a bigger problem than anything involving "reproducibility" which is mostly an artifact of the stupidity of the modern application of the p value and hypothesis testing in settings of effect measurement, alongside a total lack of understanding of what the numbers people are creating in studies actually mean.


Its just stats in action. If you have 95% confidence intervals as a standard 5% will be wrong. But only interesting results will get published widely, so there is a bias for those in the 5% being more recognizable.

Also, I will say, even as an engineer I don't understand all the massaging that certain studies seem to engage in, and how legit or not it is. So I can see why peer review is inadequate.


Its amazing the amount of bad stats or bad interpretation of stats gets published. Goes to show that a lot of people don't fully grasp statistics and just took the required classes to know how to do some things and maybe picked up on some stuff from advisors along the way. I do know a couple of people who try to prevent this by sending their stuff to actual statisticians first to examine or just straight up having them run the stats and interpret them.
Never Knows Best.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 14 2016 01:07 GMT
#72104
The oil industry’s knowledge of dangerous climate change stretches back to the 1960s, with unearthed documents showing that it was warned of “serious worldwide environmental changes” more than 45 years ago.

The Stanford Research Institute presented a report to the American Petroleum Institute (API) in 1968 that warned the release of carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels could carry an array of harmful consequences for the planet.

The emergence of this stark advice follows a series of revelations that the fossil fuel industry was aware of climate change for decades, only to publicly deny its scientific basis.

“Significant temperature changes are almost certain to occur by the year 2000 and these could bring about climatic change,” the 1968 Stanford report, found and republished by the Center for International Environmental Law, states. “If the Earth’s temperature increases significantly, a number of events might be expected to occur including the melting of the Antarctic ice cap, a rise in sea levels, warming of the oceans and an increase in photosynthesis.

“It is clear that we are unsure as to what our long-lived pollutants are doing to our environment; however, there seems to be no doubt that the potential damage to our environment could be severe.”

The study, written by scientists Elmer Robinson and RC Robbins, adds that accumulation of CO2 in the atmosphere could cause “serious worldwide environmental changes”.

The scientists estimated that CO2 in the atmosphere could reach 400 parts per million by 2000. In fact, CO2 levels broke that milestone last year, recording their largest leap on record.

This huge increase in CO2, the primary driver of the greenhouse effect, has helped global temperatures rise by 1C over the past century. It is estimated that about three-quarters of the world’s known fossil fuel reserves, including oil, coal and gas, will have to remain unburned if civilisation is to avoid the worst ravages of climate change, such as droughts, floods, food insecurity and inundation from rising seas.

API, the peak body for the oil industry in the US, knew about the dangers of climate change at least 20 years before the issue was brought into mainstream public discourse via the former Nasa scientist James Hansen. Former US president Lyndon Johnson also received an early warning about climate change, with scientists explaining the mechanism of the greenhouse effect in 1965.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-14 01:09:32
April 14 2016 01:07 GMT
#72105
how heavy is experimental design and statistics in a bio program?

ive actually helped my dad edit some of his medical research papers it seems pretty heavy on the statistical and design aspects. this is in molecular cardiology
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-14 01:09:34
April 14 2016 01:09 GMT
#72106
On April 14 2016 09:54 hunts wrote:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/1800-studies-later-scientists-conclude-homeopathy-doesnt-work-180954534/?no-ist Just something I found.

Show nested quote +
After assessing more than 1,800 studies on homeopathy, Australia’s National Health and Medical Research Council was only able to find 225 that were rigorous enough to analyze. And a systematic review of these studies revealed “no good quality evidence to support the claim that homeopathy is effective in treating health conditions.”

see i'm wondering why you're posting this at all, because i personally believe this is news to literally no one in this thread

anyone wish to contradict me?

do you honestly believe there's homeopathy believers in this thread?
posting on liquid sites in current year
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
April 14 2016 01:17 GMT
#72107
On April 14 2016 10:09 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2016 09:54 hunts wrote:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/1800-studies-later-scientists-conclude-homeopathy-doesnt-work-180954534/?no-ist Just something I found.

After assessing more than 1,800 studies on homeopathy, Australia’s National Health and Medical Research Council was only able to find 225 that were rigorous enough to analyze. And a systematic review of these studies revealed “no good quality evidence to support the claim that homeopathy is effective in treating health conditions.”

see i'm wondering why you're posting this at all, because i personally believe this is news to literally no one in this thread

anyone wish to contradict me?

do you honestly believe there's homeopathy believers in this thread?


There are a few, which is why it was even brought up to begin with
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-14 01:20:47
April 14 2016 01:19 GMT
#72108
the topic was brought up by on article on bernie's past views on alternative medicine and continued advocacy for certain forms of alt. medicine

i dont think anyone advocated for homeopathy specifically

the closest guy i could imagine is travis, whose sister is a naturopath. homeopathy is just like one very specific instance within whole questionable mass of stuff that is "alternative medicine," but the argument is about whether any merit can be found in the questionable mass, not whether or not individual parts are all legit

and to what extent we should champion our current approach to conventional evidence-based medicine
posting on liquid sites in current year
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-14 01:20:12
April 14 2016 01:19 GMT
#72109
nah it was brought up as a "strawman", loath as i am to engage in the strawman finger pointing
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 14 2016 01:20 GMT
#72110
Mike Lee isn’t backing down.

The Utah senator faces a perilous path to getting the No. 4 job in Republican Party leadership that he covets: Majority Leader Mitch McConnell argues that internal party rules dictate that Sen. John Barrasso of Wyoming can serve in the job until 2018. And there’s substantial wariness within the caucus about an intraparty feud over future leadership elections, particularly while the GOP is pressing to hang on to its majority.

Lee’s gambit also could disrupt the unity within the party fostered by its stance against the president’s Supreme Court nomination — and further the senator’s reputation as a conservative bomb-thrower.

But Lee is pressing his case, insisting that the position of Republican Policy Committee chairman is wide open for 2017.
“I have no interest running against John Barrasso for this or anything else. I am interested in running for the open-seat Republican Policy chair,” Lee said in an interview on Wednesday.

That Lee believes the seat is still open is a direct challenge to McConnell, who brought Republican Secretary Laura Dove into the Tuesday caucus lunch to explain that Barrasso is eligible for another two-year term. But if Lee wins the argument, he’d imperil three-fifths of the leadership team: Barrasso, Republican Conference Chairman John Thune of South Dakota and Conference Vice Chairman Roy Blunt of Missouri all took their jobs in late 2011.

The crux of Lee’s latest challenge to the GOP’s status quo is that McConnell is wrong to say that GOP precedent allows those leaders to serve until 2018. McConnell and Dove argue that the trio’s partial term does not count toward a term limit of three, two-year terms, citing former Sen. Don Nickles’ time serving as party whip for more than six years from 1996 until 2003.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18827 Posts
April 14 2016 01:21 GMT
#72111
McConnell is a shit party leader and it's only a matter of time before his office crumbles down around him. Thank goodness
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-14 01:28:43
April 14 2016 01:23 GMT
#72112
On April 14 2016 10:07 oneofthem wrote:
how heavy is experimental design and statistics in a bio program?

ive actually helped my dad edit some of his medical research papers it seems pretty heavy on the statistical and design aspects. this is in molecular cardiology


I can't speak for general bio majors, but my pharmacy program had a token biostatistics course where they tried to teach us stats, everyone hated it, and I'm now finding out while getting my Ph D that a lot of what they said about confidence intervals/p values was just not right because of how they had to dumb it down. I was taught that a 95% confidence interval from a study was the interval where if you repeated the study an infinite number of times the number would fall in that interval 95% of the time, for example, which is just not true.

I get the sense a lot of MD programs are the same way. Since MDs run the big medical journals and are nearly required to get funding for studies, it's kind of out of the "basic chemists/basic biologists" hands. I suspect a Ph D in biology or chemistry will usually get a much better grounding than an MD. It also probably really depends on your university.

Sadly the people writing guidelines are MDs with one or two statisticians thrown in the mix.

Edit: Note that MDs are by and large very smart, considerate, helpful people. But very smart, considerate, helpful people that were taught something incorrectly or in passing can be pretty big roadblocks.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 14 2016 02:44 GMT
#72113
Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), who is no fan of the current Republican presidential frontrunners, said he was “at a loss” on Tuesday after House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-WI) formally announced that he would not accept if the party nominated him.

“I'm at a loss, OK? I do not know what's going to happen,” the Arizona senator told Bloomberg Politics. “I just don't see that a lot of it's going to turn out well. Because there are too many divisions within our party.”

McCain spokeswoman Rachael Dean told TPM on Wednesday that his comments should not be read as a direct response to the Speaker's announcement.

“As Senator McCain has stated, he is not supporting or endorsing any candidate in the Republican primary at this point," Dean said in an emailed statement. "In this exchange, Senator McCain was not reacting to Speaker Ryan’s speech but to the 2016 presidential race in general.”

Ryan stuck a pin through the hopes of establishment Republicans on Capitol Hill when he unequivocally told the press during a last-minute news conference to “count me out” of consideration. Rumors that a white knight Ryan could ride into a contested GOP convention to rescue the party from two divisive leading candidates had been circulating for months.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4782 Posts
April 14 2016 03:08 GMT
#72114
On April 14 2016 10:23 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2016 10:07 oneofthem wrote:
how heavy is experimental design and statistics in a bio program?

ive actually helped my dad edit some of his medical research papers it seems pretty heavy on the statistical and design aspects. this is in molecular cardiology


I can't speak for general bio majors, but my pharmacy program had a token biostatistics course where they tried to teach us stats, everyone hated it, and I'm now finding out while getting my Ph D that a lot of what they said about confidence intervals/p values was just not right because of how they had to dumb it down. I was taught that a 95% confidence interval from a study was the interval where if you repeated the study an infinite number of times the number would fall in that interval 95% of the time, for example, which is just not true.

I get the sense a lot of MD programs are the same way. Since MDs run the big medical journals and are nearly required to get funding for studies, it's kind of out of the "basic chemists/basic biologists" hands. I suspect a Ph D in biology or chemistry will usually get a much better grounding than an MD. It also probably really depends on your university.

Sadly the people writing guidelines are MDs with one or two statisticians thrown in the mix.

Edit: Note that MDs are by and large very smart, considerate, helpful people. But very smart, considerate, helpful people that were taught something incorrectly or in passing can be pretty big roadblocks.


You are comparing apples to oranges if you compare a PhD with an average non-phd, non-research oriented MD. The average MD, just like the average chemist, has no real use for statistics in his life other than being able to understand the literature. Of course a PhD-holder is going to be better versed in statistics than them. However, the MDs running journals and doing peer review are a selected group with a much better understanding of statistics than the other MDs.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23234 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-14 03:42:28
April 14 2016 03:13 GMT
#72115
On April 14 2016 06:54 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2016 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 14 2016 06:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
Also this is jumping topics, but holy shit Ivanka is brilliant. I know Trump is leaving her the family legacy and I 100% see why. Girl is gonna run the world.


How do you interpret her not being able to vote for her dad in the primary?


I don't think its a reflection on her intelligence at all. She either forgot or doesn't care.


Well I think she's smart too, so I find it odd that a smart young woman isn't able to vote for her dad. Seems like kind of a 101 thing in that the first people you make sure can vote for you are your family so it seems odd that between the two of them and the campaign it didn't come up.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
April 14 2016 03:16 GMT
#72116
I don't really understand what prompted the Ivanka love. My perduring image of her is her talking about her father in the movie Born Rich made by the Johnson & Johnson heir that was posted several pages back. I've watched that movie multiple times in the last decade. I love the Italian aristocrat guy.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
April 14 2016 03:29 GMT
#72117
i agree. hillary is vastly superior.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23234 Posts
April 14 2016 03:55 GMT
#72118
On April 14 2016 12:16 IgnE wrote:
I don't really understand what prompted the Ivanka love. My perduring image of her is her talking about her father in the movie Born Rich made by the Johnson & Johnson heir that was posted several pages back. I've watched that movie multiple times in the last decade. I love the Italian aristocrat guy.


Right, isn't he the best?!? He almost makes a convincing case. Ivanka seemed like the only other person with a clue pretty much. She was overly defensive of her father, but I don't think that's a surprise. Imagine what her brothers would of been like in that video. Like the aristocrat, without the brains I imagine.

I like the weird kid on the subway. I love the imagery of those two talking about their families roles in the country/city, particularly the comment about heroin, being on the subway and all.

I can only imagine the trip it is to inherit a legacy like that.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
April 14 2016 04:14 GMT
#72119
On April 14 2016 10:07 oneofthem wrote:
how heavy is experimental design and statistics in a bio program?

ive actually helped my dad edit some of his medical research papers it seems pretty heavy on the statistical and design aspects. this is in molecular cardiology


in undergrad pretty shitty, it's mostly memorization and you have to get a lab position if you want to learn that stuff/ get into grad school. i think grad school does good jobs about designing experiments and stuff. in some of my 400 level classes we started doing critical analysis of studies and i think some of the tests for other classes were like "design an experiment to test this hypothesis" but not hefty.

and yeah, a md is not gonna teach research stuff too much unless you do a md/phd or something

molecular cardiology sounds pretty intense

i brought up ivanka because of the trump town hall. she can vote or register however she wants, she's a grown adult. i'm surprised she came out so well with the donald as a father.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23234 Posts
April 14 2016 04:25 GMT
#72120
she can vote or register however she wants,


I wasn't suggesting otherwise, I'm just skeptical that it was an oversight.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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