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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
United States43505 Posts
On April 14 2016 07:12 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 06:41 IgnE wrote:On the topic of supplements and "alternative" medicine: www.bbc.comThere was also a radiolab on that particular "herbal" remedy. Whenever people start glorifying "double blind" studies in the healthcare field I always think of how just a decade ago doctors were saying that there was no evidence that HGH added muscle mass. I just wish that supplements were required to accurately list exactly how much of what was in the pills or whatever that are being sold. Many pharma drugs were originally synthesised from natural herbs.Aspirin anyone? No point dismissing everything out of hand.That said the only reason to go to an ND now is to get lab tests ordered.You can get all other advice and supplements far cheaper online at the click of a button.
For the herbs that work I can't think of any reason why a herb based delivery system would be a good way to get the right dosage of the active ingredient in a reliable strength. That leaves herbs in a sweet spot that includes herbs that work too well to be prescribed (opium), miracle cures that you have access to but that big pharma covered up because they're in the pay of the pro-cancer lobby (this is a serious theory peddled by the natural medicine folks) and herbs that do literally nothing (which includes all of the previous category). You can't use the argument that some herbs worked so you never know. No herb extract an American is buying in a nutrition store is a new, undiscovered and untested medicine. It's a Nutrishop, not the unexplored Amazon rainforest. If you saw an ad about it on daytime tv it's not a revolutionary new secret, it's been tested and if it worked your doctor would be prescribing it.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On April 14 2016 06:41 IgnE wrote:On the topic of supplements and "alternative" medicine: www.bbc.comThere was also a radiolab on that particular "herbal" remedy. Whenever people start glorifying "double blind" studies in the healthcare field I always think of how just a decade ago doctors were saying that there was no evidence that HGH added muscle mass. I just wish that supplements were required to accurately list exactly how much of what was in the pills or whatever that are being sold.
it's obvious that some of the stuff works but the process of selecting for effectiveness is terrible.
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On April 14 2016 07:14 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 14 2016 06:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
Also this is jumping topics, but holy shit Ivanka is brilliant. I know Trump is leaving her the family legacy and I 100% see why. Girl is gonna run the world. How do you interpret her not being able to vote for her dad in the primary? I don't understand in what world this would mean anything pertaining to intelligence. What exactly are you asking?
Let's say you gave a crap about XXX. Then you failed to do the necessary thing to allow you to do XXX. That isn't smart people behavior. We don't praise such a pointless failing to take necessary steps to achieve desired goals. We condemn such behavior as lazy or ill thought out.
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On April 14 2016 07:12 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 06:41 IgnE wrote:On the topic of supplements and "alternative" medicine: www.bbc.comThere was also a radiolab on that particular "herbal" remedy. Whenever people start glorifying "double blind" studies in the healthcare field I always think of how just a decade ago doctors were saying that there was no evidence that HGH added muscle mass. I just wish that supplements were required to accurately list exactly how much of what was in the pills or whatever that are being sold. Many pharma drugs were originally synthesised from natural herbs.Aspirin anyone?
...Which is why aspirin is considered real medicine. It passes scientific muster.
No point dismissing everything out of hand.That said the only reason to go to an ND now is to get lab tests ordered.You can get all other advice and supplements far cheaper online at the click of a button.
Well yeah, but water's a lot cheaper from a faucet and sugar from the market than they are if you're buying homeopathic medicine. You can buy anything online... doesn't mean it's been vetted or safe.
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On April 14 2016 07:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 07:12 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On April 14 2016 06:41 IgnE wrote:On the topic of supplements and "alternative" medicine: www.bbc.comThere was also a radiolab on that particular "herbal" remedy. Whenever people start glorifying "double blind" studies in the healthcare field I always think of how just a decade ago doctors were saying that there was no evidence that HGH added muscle mass. I just wish that supplements were required to accurately list exactly how much of what was in the pills or whatever that are being sold. Many pharma drugs were originally synthesised from natural herbs.Aspirin anyone? No point dismissing everything out of hand.That said the only reason to go to an ND now is to get lab tests ordered.You can get all other advice and supplements far cheaper online at the click of a button. If you saw an ad about it on daytime tv it's not a revolutionary new secret, it's been tested and if it worked your doctor would be prescribing it.
You cannot patent a herb so there is no profit in it for the big pharma companies.Plenty of information out there if you care to look, here is a study showing oregano oil (wild oregano, not the culinary herb) is a very effective antibiotic : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23484421/
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Having antibacterial qualities is not the same as having antibiotic qualities.....antibiotics reference antibacterial action in vitro, whereas that study merely looked at chemical interactions outside a living organism.
You are putting the flaws in using the internet as doctor on display in perfect order. Bravo 
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On April 14 2016 01:58 travis wrote:
Good, I am glad he supports alternative medicine. Fuck people who think they know everything, and science doesn't even shut down a lot of what alternative medicine has to offer at the moment. But this is an argument that has been had on this website a thousand times and every time it involves a bunch of people throwing up strawmen and ripping them apart.
Furthermore, what science says doesn't really mean jack shit in the face of results. My sister is a naturopathic doctor and the results she gets from many of her treatments (particularly acupuncture) really make what science says irrelevant, because results are results.
I'm all for people being entirely free to buy whatever crap they want. But for the government to subsidize it as actual medicine (which I presume would be the point of discussing this in a politics thread), under some public health plan, there better be a standard of proof which is better than "my neighbour Wally told me it works".
For the same reason, many experimental drugs don't fall under a public health plan either. They are experimental for a reason, which is usually because so far there is insufficient evidence to show they work better than the state-of-the-art alternative (which may very well be nothing more than the placebo effect).
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On April 14 2016 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 07:12 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On April 14 2016 06:41 IgnE wrote:On the topic of supplements and "alternative" medicine: www.bbc.comThere was also a radiolab on that particular "herbal" remedy. Whenever people start glorifying "double blind" studies in the healthcare field I always think of how just a decade ago doctors were saying that there was no evidence that HGH added muscle mass. I just wish that supplements were required to accurately list exactly how much of what was in the pills or whatever that are being sold. Many pharma drugs were originally synthesised from natural herbs.Aspirin anyone? ...Which is why aspirin is considered real medicine. It passes scientific muster. Show nested quote +No point dismissing everything out of hand.That said the only reason to go to an ND now is to get lab tests ordered.You can get all other advice and supplements far cheaper online at the click of a button. Well yeah, but water's a lot cheaper from a faucet and sugar from the market than they are if you're buying homeopathic medicine. You can buy anything online... doesn't mean it's been vetted or safe.
I wasn't talking about homeopathic pills, NDs generally don't prescribe that stuff.Generally if people have been using a herb for centuries or longer it will be pretty safe  certainly safer than Iodiquinol (blindness cases) or Thalidomide.
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On April 14 2016 07:59 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 07:27 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2016 07:12 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On April 14 2016 06:41 IgnE wrote:On the topic of supplements and "alternative" medicine: www.bbc.comThere was also a radiolab on that particular "herbal" remedy. Whenever people start glorifying "double blind" studies in the healthcare field I always think of how just a decade ago doctors were saying that there was no evidence that HGH added muscle mass. I just wish that supplements were required to accurately list exactly how much of what was in the pills or whatever that are being sold. Many pharma drugs were originally synthesised from natural herbs.Aspirin anyone? No point dismissing everything out of hand.That said the only reason to go to an ND now is to get lab tests ordered.You can get all other advice and supplements far cheaper online at the click of a button. If you saw an ad about it on daytime tv it's not a revolutionary new secret, it's been tested and if it worked your doctor would be prescribing it. You cannot patent a herb so there is no profit in it for the big pharma companies.Plenty of information out there if you care to look, here is a study showing oregano oil (wild oregano, not the culinary herb) is a very effective antibiotic : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23484421/
EDIT: not actually the article, but a study on the same thing
http://world-food.net/download/journals/2010-issue_2/f54.pdf
and the MIC if oregano essential oil is magnitudes higher than for ampicillin in the vast majority of cases, which can be produced in an extremely pure form very very easily
i agree that there are many "traditional" cures and such that are effective in some degree (comparable to modern medicine in some cases, your citation wasn't gr8) but there's a lot of nutty stuff out there as well or things where efficacy is vastly overstated
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Yes, that's a much better citation lol
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On April 14 2016 08:09 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 07:59 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On April 14 2016 07:27 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2016 07:12 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On April 14 2016 06:41 IgnE wrote:On the topic of supplements and "alternative" medicine: www.bbc.comThere was also a radiolab on that particular "herbal" remedy. Whenever people start glorifying "double blind" studies in the healthcare field I always think of how just a decade ago doctors were saying that there was no evidence that HGH added muscle mass. I just wish that supplements were required to accurately list exactly how much of what was in the pills or whatever that are being sold. Many pharma drugs were originally synthesised from natural herbs.Aspirin anyone? No point dismissing everything out of hand.That said the only reason to go to an ND now is to get lab tests ordered.You can get all other advice and supplements far cheaper online at the click of a button. If you saw an ad about it on daytime tv it's not a revolutionary new secret, it's been tested and if it worked your doctor would be prescribing it. You cannot patent a herb so there is no profit in it for the big pharma companies.Plenty of information out there if you care to look, here is a study showing oregano oil (wild oregano, not the culinary herb) is a very effective antibiotic : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23484421/ complete article: http://world-food.net/download/journals/2010-issue_2/f54.pdfand the MIC if oregano essential oil is magnitudes higher than for ampicillin in the vast majority of cases, which can be produced in an extremely pure form very very easily i agree that there are many "traditional" cures and such that are effective in some degree (comparable to modern medicine in some cases, your citation wasn't gr8) but there's a lot of nutty stuff out there as well or things where efficacy is vastly overstated
Oregano oil pills generally contain 150-200mg oregano oil per pill.Whats your point? The question was whether it was effective not how much dosage you needed compared to abx.
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dosage control and the reliability of the delivery mechanism is a pretty major problem with herbal medicine as opposed to pilled or otherwise processed medicine.
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On April 14 2016 07:38 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 06:41 IgnE wrote:On the topic of supplements and "alternative" medicine: www.bbc.comThere was also a radiolab on that particular "herbal" remedy. Whenever people start glorifying "double blind" studies in the healthcare field I always think of how just a decade ago doctors were saying that there was no evidence that HGH added muscle mass. I just wish that supplements were required to accurately list exactly how much of what was in the pills or whatever that are being sold. it's obvious that some of the stuff works but the process of selecting for effectiveness is terrible.
the process of selecting for effectiveness in the field of nutrition and supplementation is terrible for almost everything and has been for a long time. effectiveness in defeating some pathogen is basically qualitatively different than effectiveness in optimizing "health" which is a nebulous concept to begin with. i just find it funny when people like kwark come in and shit all over everything that hasn't been approved for "efficacy" in double-blind studies, because the very efficacy of those types of studies has been increasingly called into question recently. science needs a complete reassessment on some topics, and nutrition and economics are two excellent examples.
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i can live with varied dosages for my illicit drug based self medication it WORKS FINE
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On April 14 2016 08:08 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 14 2016 07:12 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On April 14 2016 06:41 IgnE wrote:On the topic of supplements and "alternative" medicine: www.bbc.comThere was also a radiolab on that particular "herbal" remedy. Whenever people start glorifying "double blind" studies in the healthcare field I always think of how just a decade ago doctors were saying that there was no evidence that HGH added muscle mass. I just wish that supplements were required to accurately list exactly how much of what was in the pills or whatever that are being sold. Many pharma drugs were originally synthesised from natural herbs.Aspirin anyone? ...Which is why aspirin is considered real medicine. It passes scientific muster. No point dismissing everything out of hand.That said the only reason to go to an ND now is to get lab tests ordered.You can get all other advice and supplements far cheaper online at the click of a button. Well yeah, but water's a lot cheaper from a faucet and sugar from the market than they are if you're buying homeopathic medicine. You can buy anything online... doesn't mean it's been vetted or safe. I wasn't talking about homeopathic pills, NDs generally don't prescribe that stuff.Generally if people have been using a herb for centuries or longer it will be pretty safe certainly safer than Iodiquinol (blindness cases) or Thalidomide.
People have been using tobacco for centuries or longer.
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usage of tobacco got a lot more dangerous and problematic with mass manufacturing and additives
also let people kill themselves
a lot of substances r double edged swords n thats fiiiiiiiiiine its my life
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Folks down in South America have been giving their bratty children Brugmansia flowers so that they can be chided by their spiritual ancestors. Must be good, right? I think the "kill yourself if you want" schtick is ok until it involves children.
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nope dumb people can kill their children
its a controversial viewpoint but its what i prefer to believe
im ok with abortion anyhow its just like super late term unintentional
r u trying to world police all the cultures of the world is that where we're going now?
Brugmansia have also traditionally been used in many South American indigenous cultures in medical preparations and as an entheogen in religious or spiritual ceremonies.[16] Medicinally, they have mostly been used externally as part of a poultice, tincture, ointment, or where the leaves are directly applied transdermally to the skin. Traditional external uses have included the treating of aches and pains, dermatitis, orchitis, arthritis, rheumatism, headaches, infections, and as an anti-inflammatory. They have been used internally much more rarely due to the inherent dangers of ingestion. Internal uses, in highly diluted preparations, and often as a portion of a larger mix, have included treatments for stomach and muscle ailments, as a decongestant, to induce vomiting, to expel worms and parasites, and as a sedative.[17][18][19][20]
Several South American cultures have used Brugmansia as a treatment for unruly children, that they might be admonished directly by their ancestors in the spirit world, and thereby become more compliant. Mixed with maize beer and tobacco leaves, it has been used to drug wives and slaves before they were buried alive with their dead lord.[17][21][22]
interesting stuff all around
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On April 14 2016 08:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 08:09 ticklishmusic wrote:On April 14 2016 07:59 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On April 14 2016 07:27 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2016 07:12 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On April 14 2016 06:41 IgnE wrote:On the topic of supplements and "alternative" medicine: www.bbc.comThere was also a radiolab on that particular "herbal" remedy. Whenever people start glorifying "double blind" studies in the healthcare field I always think of how just a decade ago doctors were saying that there was no evidence that HGH added muscle mass. I just wish that supplements were required to accurately list exactly how much of what was in the pills or whatever that are being sold. Many pharma drugs were originally synthesised from natural herbs.Aspirin anyone? No point dismissing everything out of hand.That said the only reason to go to an ND now is to get lab tests ordered.You can get all other advice and supplements far cheaper online at the click of a button. If you saw an ad about it on daytime tv it's not a revolutionary new secret, it's been tested and if it worked your doctor would be prescribing it. You cannot patent a herb so there is no profit in it for the big pharma companies.Plenty of information out there if you care to look, here is a study showing oregano oil (wild oregano, not the culinary herb) is a very effective antibiotic : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23484421/ complete article: http://world-food.net/download/journals/2010-issue_2/f54.pdfand the MIC if oregano essential oil is magnitudes higher than for ampicillin in the vast majority of cases, which can be produced in an extremely pure form very very easily i agree that there are many "traditional" cures and such that are effective in some degree (comparable to modern medicine in some cases, your citation wasn't gr8) but there's a lot of nutty stuff out there as well or things where efficacy is vastly overstated Oregano oil pills generally contain 150-200mg oregano oil per pill.Whats your point? The question was whether it was effective not how much dosage you needed compared to abx.
sure, but ampicillin is fractions of a penny for a dose because its easily mass produced at a high purity. it's also easy to control the dosage, etc. if it made sense to use oregano oil as an antibiotic over ampicillin we would totally do so
maybe there's some niche cases where someone has a bad reaction to ampicillin and all beta lactams so something like oregano oil is an option,but that's gonna be insanely rare. i did notice that MRSA responded about the same to both though, but MRSA is a special case of a resistant strain i think
for those interested in plant based medicine i recommend tales of a shaman's apprentice. not bad reading. it's about ethnobotany and about how a lot of traditional medicines are pretty effective. iirc quinine is a pretty big example.
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www.thelancet.com
Article that talks about the lack of reproducibility in biomedical research. It's a problem that suffuses the entire field and erodes the distinction between "alternative medicine" and "medicine."
Putting a 5-sigma rule on medicine would pretty much kill the field too.
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EPT
