EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3003
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 24 2016 03:49 Krikkitone wrote: Who says the US "needs" unskilled labor? The US has probably a good 100 million people capable of unskilled labor. There are people who would like some unskilled labor done for them, if so then they need to pay the rate that will get someone legally here to do it. If they don't want it that much then they don't "need" it. Now the issue is a large number people are willing to pay enough for unskilled labor to get it illegally, but not enough to pay to get it legally. You can make it cheaper to get it legally (lower minimum wage, legalize slavery) OR make it harder to get illegally (bigger penalties, greater chance of being caught with more enforcement) And that depends on Why it was made illegal/hard to get legally in the first place. If there is enough damage caused by the illegal activity itself (rather than the enforcement) then you increase the illegal cost. If the US truly needs more unskilled labor then increase that 5,000 to 50 million. But that doesn't mean that the 11 million already here should get a better chance at those 50 million slots because they broke the law. We need unskilled labor. US citizens don't want these jobs. This has been proven over and over that temporary workers are beneficial to both the nation accepting them and the workers themselves. The only reason they don't come over legally is that our system doesn't meet our nation's demand. On February 24 2016 03:51 killa_robot wrote: I find it funny that in the debate of illegal immigrants, the focus is on the immigrants themselves, and not the countless companies that break the law by hiring them. You wouldn't even have this issue if companies were actually held accountable for their actions. Those people have standing, voting rights and investment locally. And a lot of them say they would love to higher legal immigrants, but they can't. Doing that would lead to a real discussion about the flaws with the system, rather than pointing the finger at people who can't vote. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On February 24 2016 03:56 Deathstar wrote: Punishing the businesses that hire illegal aliens will open a wild can of worms. Think about how you're going to enforce that. You act like this would be hard. Start with businesses that are commonly known to do this, then fine them to the point where they go out of business. Rinse and repeat until people get the message. People will bitch and moan, but the actually effect on normal consumers would be minimal. The businesses getting away with this now and illegal immigrants are the ones that would actually be hurting. New business will pop up where old ones went out, if the demand is there, and this time hopefully they'll get the message. Not like the status quo is needed lest we fall into chaos. Businesses come and go. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
Besides, wage cost is only part of the reason. Illegal immigrants have less rights and are more dependent on the businesses that hire them then people who are legally hired. The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat, when the people mainly benefiting are the business owners who are knowingly breaking the law by doing this. | ||
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oBlade
United States6244 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22428 Posts
On February 24 2016 05:01 killa_robot wrote: There's a difference between "need" and "want in order to keep costs low". You'll find the latter is normally what businesses actually mean when they say need. Besides, wage cost is only part of the reason. Illegal immigrants have less rights and are more dependent on the businesses that hire them then people who are legally hired. The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat, when the people mainly benefiting are the business owners who are knowingly breaking the law by doing this. As opposed to destroying the entire agricultural sector overnight and thinking it will not have repercussions. Getting rid of the illegal workforce is not a bad thing but you have to do it with some thought and care. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
And its been proven that they don’t take our jobs over and over. There are endless studies about this. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/immigrants-arent-stealing-american-jobs/433158/ http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/does-immigration-cost-jobs/ And if they are not taking jobs from US citizens, there is clearly a market for labor that the US population isn’t meeting. No amount of fines or deportations will make that market suddenly shift to hiring US citizens. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
Also, if illegals were taking american jobs en mass they would have really been kicked out a long time ago. | ||
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oBlade
United States6244 Posts
On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote: killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote: I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. Except it isn’t available. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. Remember they need to sell the food to super markets. They can’t just jack up their prices and say “sorry, no more cheap labor.” It won’t sell. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
People forget the American Businessman mindset is why make $5 when I can make $8 screwing people over. Greed is good. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote: Except it isn’t available. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. Remember they need to sell the food to super markets. They can’t just jack up their prices and say “sorry, no more cheap labor.” It won’t sell. What % of large farming operations use illegal labor? Because if most of them are and they all switch then all it will cause is rising prices because the markets that buy the food from farmers will have no choice but to buy and they will just raise their prices and the cost will just be offloaded onto the consumers. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote: I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. I live in a border state and I can say that this is false. Often, non-immigrant labor is prohibitively expensive for otherwise highly productive and positive businesses. Good-faith immigrants are a boon to the economy. Not all immigrants are that (e.g. Syria), but most Mexican immigrants aren't drug traffickers or felons. | ||
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oBlade
United States6244 Posts
On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote: Except it isn’t available. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. Remember they need to sell the food to super markets. They can’t just jack up their prices and say “sorry, no more cheap labor.” It won’t sell. I'm hearing yet another conflicting set of propositions here: -So many people go to the USA illegally because immigration policy only accepts low numbers of unskilled laborers, we need to make it easier for them to come legally. -Necessary illegal labor costs less and can't be replaced by legal workers You can always increase subsidies while excising illegals from the industry. There's no excuse for people working below minimum wage and without fair conditions in the USA. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 24 2016 05:38 Slaughter wrote: What % of large farming operations use illegal labor? Because if most of them are and they all switch then all it will cause is rising prices because the markets that buy the food from farmers will have no choice but to buy and they will just raise their prices and the cost will just be offloaded onto the consumers. Are you suggesting that the solution is to deport all illegal immigrants performing farm labor nationwide? Mind you these are seasonal workers, so you will likely need to do this during harvest season or before. Then after that is done, the farms will need to hire all new labor that season and every one of them raises prices at once. Assuming that labor exists at all. And if you don’t do it all at once, you will be asking the farms that were raided to compete against those who were not. Then I will pay more for food, which is really what this is all about. Making me pay more for leafy greens. I am hard pressed to think of a dumber waste of the governments time. On February 24 2016 05:44 oBlade wrote: I'm hearing yet another conflicting set of propositions here: -So many people go to the USA illegally because immigration policy only accepts low numbers of unskilled laborers, we need to make it easier for them to come legally. -Necessary illegal labor costs less and can't be replaced by legal workers You can always increase subsidies while excising illegals from the industry. There's no excuse for people working below minimum wage and without fair conditions in the USA. What if I told you that people in the US don't want those jobs? At any pay scale that makes sense. Why are you trying to deport everyone when the solution is much easier? Issue them all work visas if they meet a set of reasonable requirements, pay them minimum wage. Problem solved. We fixed it. We can move on to fixing it for next year too. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
Either way though it seems like they will have to invest in whatever agency handles immigration because they seem seriously overwhelmed. On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote: Are you suggesting that the solution is to deport all illegal immigrants performing farm labor nationwide? Mind you these are seasonal workers, so you will likely need to do this during harvest season or before. Then after that is done, the farms will need to hire all new labor that season and every one of them raises prices at once. Assuming that labor exists at all. And if you don’t do it all at once, you will be asking the farms that were raided to compete against those who were not. Then I will pay more for food, which is really what this is all about. Making me pay more for leafy greens. I am hard pressed to think of a dumber waste of the governments time. Where did I suggest that? I simply stated a potential consequence of removing the cheap labor and having minimum wage citizens do that work. That is, rising food costs. | ||
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
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