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I'm glad people are finally waking up to Trump being the nominee. I think it validates a lot of what I've been saying for a long time but I suppose Introvert will still disagree.
On the spending side, there's been about $180,000,000 spent so far on the Republican side. Approximately $9m was used to attack Trump, they've been running scared the whole campaign.
Talk is that there's a Trump/Rubio deal and that's what we saw manifest recently with teaming up on Cruz. Pressure has been rolling on Kasich to try to get him out since he can seal the deal for Trump by staying in.
It's basically up to Democrats to decide if they want to win or not. Hillary will lose, Bernie will win.
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On February 24 2016 07:21 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 07:11 Plansix wrote:
The only issue with that is that its food. And when food costs rise, it has this well documents effect of causing civil unrest, riots and other really bad things. It is why governments are so keen to keep food prices in check. That part of the market needs to be addressed as well, either through government involvement or seasonal labor that is willing to work lower wages(above minimum), but is able to take the stronger US dollar back to their country. Your position is untenable (unless you are advocating we stick with cheap illegal labor that can readily be exploited to keep the food cheap). Any legal workforce, seasonal or otherwise will cost more than the current illegal seasonal workforce. And government farming subsidies are evil. Get rid of them completely, they do far more harm than good.
Cheap food is perfectly tenable.
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On February 24 2016 07:58 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 07:21 Acrofales wrote:On February 24 2016 07:11 Plansix wrote:
The only issue with that is that its food. And when food costs rise, it has this well documents effect of causing civil unrest, riots and other really bad things. It is why governments are so keen to keep food prices in check. That part of the market needs to be addressed as well, either through government involvement or seasonal labor that is willing to work lower wages(above minimum), but is able to take the stronger US dollar back to their country. Your position is untenable (unless you are advocating we stick with cheap illegal labor that can readily be exploited to keep the food cheap). Any legal workforce, seasonal or otherwise will cost more than the current illegal seasonal workforce. And government farming subsidies are evil. Get rid of them completely, they do far more harm than good. Cheap food is perfectly tenable.
It should be a goal for our country and every other. Keeping food costs low solves a lot of problems.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 24 2016 06:00 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 05:42 LegalLord wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. I live in a border state and I can say that this is false. Often, non-immigrant labor is prohibitively expensive for otherwise highly productive and positive businesses. Good-faith immigrants are a boon to the economy. Not all immigrants are that (e.g. Syria), but most Mexican immigrants aren't drug traffickers or felons. Did you just claim that Syrian immigrants are not there in good faith?
Yes. Enough of them to make it a horribly executed immigration at any rate.
On February 24 2016 06:48 travis wrote:
Yeah it's extremely silly to say that businesses can't afford to raise wages. Of course they can raise wages. The guys making insane profit are going to have to take a hit to their profit(god forbid!), or they are going to have to sell their goods or services for more money.
You make the incorrect assumption that businesses are all giant profit machines that are making infinity billion dollars. The truth is that illegals are used most by small businesses since undocumented labor is a diseconomy of scale (due to govt oversight). That disproportionately punishes the businesses on the margins, which are doing well but can't pay for the price hike.
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On February 24 2016 07:48 Belisarius wrote:
That's his point. Your current prices are dependent on illegal workers being paid below minimum wage. Any shift to a legal workforce, even one made of immigrants paid the bare legal minimum, will cost more than it currently does and cause an increase in prices.
I don't know about subsidies. They seem a reasonable enough idea over here.
Indeed, and US agriculture has lots of subsidies already. We bailed out the banks and auto industry in recent memory, and the government still funds the whole defense industry. It would probably be worth some more, smart subsidies to not have parts of agriculture half-assedly outsourced to illegal immigrant labor.
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On February 24 2016 08:03 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 06:00 Acrofales wrote:On February 24 2016 05:42 LegalLord wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. I live in a border state and I can say that this is false. Often, non-immigrant labor is prohibitively expensive for otherwise highly productive and positive businesses. Good-faith immigrants are a boon to the economy. Not all immigrants are that (e.g. Syria), but most Mexican immigrants aren't drug traffickers or felons. Did you just claim that Syrian immigrants are not there in good faith? Yes. Enough of them to make it a horribly executed immigration at any rate. Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 06:48 travis wrote:
Yeah it's extremely silly to say that businesses can't afford to raise wages. Of course they can raise wages. The guys making insane profit are going to have to take a hit to their profit(god forbid!), or they are going to have to sell their goods or services for more money. You make the incorrect assumption that businesses are all giant profit machines that are making infinity billion dollars. The truth is that illegals are used most by small businesses since undocumented labor is a diseconomy of scale (due to govt oversight). That disproportionately punishes the businesses on the margins, which are doing well but can't pay for the price hike.
Businesses that can't afford to pay anyone but illegals are essentially living off welfare. They do not have a suitable business model and should not be in business.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
that welfare designation is better applied to businesses hiring workers who receive public benefits.
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On February 24 2016 08:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 07:58 Deathstar wrote:On February 24 2016 07:21 Acrofales wrote:On February 24 2016 07:11 Plansix wrote:
The only issue with that is that its food. And when food costs rise, it has this well documents effect of causing civil unrest, riots and other really bad things. It is why governments are so keen to keep food prices in check. That part of the market needs to be addressed as well, either through government involvement or seasonal labor that is willing to work lower wages(above minimum), but is able to take the stronger US dollar back to their country. Your position is untenable (unless you are advocating we stick with cheap illegal labor that can readily be exploited to keep the food cheap). Any legal workforce, seasonal or otherwise will cost more than the current illegal seasonal workforce. And government farming subsidies are evil. Get rid of them completely, they do far more harm than good. Cheap food is perfectly tenable. It should be a goal for our country and every other. Keeping food costs low solves a lot of problems.
agreed 
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On February 24 2016 08:14 oneofthem wrote:
that welfare designation is better applied to businesses hiring workers who receive public benefits.
When considering all the shit that small business owners are able to write off as "business expenses", I think welfare is a fair designation.
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On February 24 2016 08:14 oneofthem wrote:
that welfare designation is better applied to businesses hiring workers who receive public benefits.
And even then, its a pretty dumb designation unless I get to include the entire defense industry.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
point is if they are really only staying in business because they can hire people who tolerate low wages with no benefits, then that output is not going to exist in an economy with higher paid workers. it's not a subsidy situation
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On February 24 2016 08:17 oneofthem wrote:
point is if they are really only staying in business because they can hire people who tolerate low wages with no benefits, then that output is not going to exist in an economy with higher paid workers. it's not a subsidy situation
The business owner could have been working another job and generating tax revenue. The federal government indulging someone's dream of owning a bar is allowing that person to not generate revenue otherwise. My point is that our tax system is so soft on small business owners that people are able to indulge their silly dreams too easily and businesses that should have died a long time ago are allowed to crawl along. Then these business owners talk about how increasing the minimum wage by $1 will force them to close up shop. They should have closed a long time ago.
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It depends on the fruit and vegetable the worker is assigned to, but there are many illegals who make more than minimum wage. They are still hired though because they are the only ones who are willing to tolerate the work conditions of picking cherries during the summer.
This isn't an argument. Our agricultural sector, among others, NEEDS these illegal aliens.
The work is hard — but many jobs are hard. The thing that bothers me more is the low pay. With cherries, you earn $7 for each box, and I’ll fill 30 boxes in a day — about $210 a day. For blueberries, I’ll do 25 containers for up to $5 each one — $125 a day. With grapes, you make 30 cents for each carton, and I can do 400 cartons a day – $120 a day. Tomatoes are the worst paid: I’ll pick 100 for 62 cents a bucket, or about $62 a day. I don’t do tomatoes much anymore. It’s heavy work, you have to bend over, run to turn in your baskets, and your back hurts. I say I like tomatoes — in a salad. Ha. With a lot of the crops, the bosses keep track of your haul by giving you a card, and punching it every time you turn in a basket.
http://modernfarmer.com/2013/11/farmworker-confessional/
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You heard it hear first. The tax system it so soft on small business owners. Not huge multinational companies, but small 15 people operations that get to write off stuff that Mohdoo thinks are silly. And them being worried about wages and payroll is just them being greedy or indulging silly dreams.
The tax system favors small business because they are the most risky and lead to the best invitations and new ideas. As someone who grew up in and around one, its less of a cake walk than you make it out to be.
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On February 24 2016 08:21 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 08:17 oneofthem wrote:
point is if they are really only staying in business because they can hire people who tolerate low wages with no benefits, then that output is not going to exist in an economy with higher paid workers. it's not a subsidy situation The business owner could have been working another job and generating tax revenue. The federal government indulging someone's dream of owning a bar is allowing that person to not generate revenue otherwise. My point is that our tax system is so soft on small business owners that people are able to indulge their silly dreams too easily and businesses that should have died a long time ago are allowed to crawl along. Then these business owners talk about how increasing the minimum wage by $1 will force them to close up shop. They should have closed a long time ago.
This is literally the most unamerican thing I have read.
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I don't know how it is in the US but over here in the Netherlands agriculture is not a business where record profits are being made. illegals are being used aswell, partly because others don't want to do it for minimum wage and partly because the margins are thin already.
The people and the government want cheap food but the high quality we demand nowadays is not that cheap to produce.
Just think of how much food we throw away or reduce to animal feed because it is not pristine enough for a store shelf. A shelf where it can only be sold for a brief period before it is thrown away aswell.
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On February 24 2016 08:28 Plansix wrote:
You heard it hear first. The tax system it so soft on small business owners. Not huge multinational companies, but small 15 people operations that get to write off stuff that Mohdoo thinks are silly. And them being worried about wages and payroll is just them being greedy or indulging silly dreams.
The tax system favors small business because they are the most risky and lead to the best invitations and new ideas. As someone who grew up in and around one, its less of a cake walk than you make it out to be.
wtf lol where am I saying anything about big businesses or anything? I'm not saying it is a cakewalk at all. I am saying that shitty business owners are able to kinda sorta make ends meet for a really long time thanks to what is essentially life support from the government in the form of tax breaks and allowing business owners to write off things they shouldn't. In these cases, the government is indulging someone who convinced themselves they could do it and won't admit it's time to close up shop. Small businesses are most risky because they are difficult. Allowing someone to generate decreased tax revenue while they continue being a shitty business owner is essentially welfare.
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On February 24 2016 07:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm glad people are finally waking up to Trump being the nominee. I think it validates a lot of what I've been saying for a long time but I suppose Introvert will still disagree.
On the spending side, there's been about $180,000,000 spent so far on the Republican side. Approximately $9m was used to attack Trump, they've been running scared the whole campaign.
Talk is that there's a Trump/Rubio deal and that's what we saw manifest recently with teaming up on Cruz. Pressure has been rolling on Kasich to try to get him out since he can seal the deal for Trump by staying in.
It's basically up to Democrats to decide if they want to win or not. Hillary will lose, Bernie will win.
You can be right for the wrong reasons. It's hardly xenophobia powering his campaign. And the number of moderates he gets is impressive. I don't really think that was predicted either.
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On February 24 2016 05:01 killa_robot wrote:
There's a difference between "need" and "want in order to keep costs low". You'll find the latter is normally what businesses actually mean when they say need.
Besides, wage cost is only part of the reason. Illegal immigrants have less rights and are more dependent on the businesses that hire them then people who are legally hired.
The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat, when the people mainly benefiting are the business owners who are knowingly breaking the law by doing this. The time where Democrats remain pro big business and exploitation because it is a necessary side effect of their immigration policy.
On February 24 2016 06:09 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 06:06 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 06:03 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:57 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:55 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:44 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. Except it isn’t available. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. Remember they need to sell the food to super markets. They can’t just jack up their prices and say “sorry, no more cheap labor.” It won’t sell. I'm hearing yet another conflicting set of propositions here: -So many people go to the USA illegally because immigration policy only accepts low numbers of unskilled laborers, we need to make it easier for them to come legally. -Necessary illegal labor costs less and can't be replaced by legal workers You can always increase subsidies while excising illegals from the industry. There's no excuse for people working below minimum wage and without fair conditions in the USA. What if I told you that people in the US don't want those jobs? At any pay scale that makes sense. Why are you trying to deport everyone when the solution is much easier? Issue them all work visas if they meet a set of reasonable requirements, pay them minimum wage. Problem solved. We fixed it. We can move on to fixing it for next year too. Issuing work visas (you) is not something that disagrees with reforming and expanding legal immigration (me). On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:
pay them minimum wage. I can't answer you if you're saying two contradictions at once. I'd agree with killa_robot's sentiment also. Please provide evidence that US citizens will fill the void created by the deportation of the illegal immigrants. Because all the research I have seen is that we won’t do the work. I will take any research paper or study proving the labor market exist. You've misunderstood something if you believe I'm taking a position in favor of US citizens working in unfair conditions and below minimum wage. I am starting to think your reading skills are terrible or broken, to be honest. Please provide evidence that US citizens would work these jobs at minimum wage or higher or they are being stolen by cheap labor. Because all studies say US citizens DO NOT WANT THESE JOBS AT ANY PAY SCALE FOR UNSKILLED LABOR. I haven't argued that they would or do.
I'm growing tired of this bait and switch, in this thread and just talking with the big pro-Trump and pro-Bern supporters at work and around town.
It's like god almighty, before high rates of illegal immigration there were just untended landscaping and dirty floors because no American would take these jobs for any price.
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EPT
