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On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 05:44 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. Except it isn’t available. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. Remember they need to sell the food to super markets. They can’t just jack up their prices and say “sorry, no more cheap labor.” It won’t sell. I'm hearing yet another conflicting set of propositions here: -So many people go to the USA illegally because immigration policy only accepts low numbers of unskilled laborers, we need to make it easier for them to come legally. -Necessary illegal labor costs less and can't be replaced by legal workers You can always increase subsidies while excising illegals from the industry. There's no excuse for people working below minimum wage and without fair conditions in the USA. What if I told you that people in the US don't want those jobs? At any pay scale that makes sense. Why are you trying to deport everyone when the solution is much easier? Issue them all work visas if they meet a set of reasonable requirements, pay them minimum wage. Problem solved. We fixed it. We can move on to fixing it for next year too.
Issuing work visas (you) is not something that disagrees with reforming and expanding legal immigration (me).
On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line.
On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:
pay them minimum wage.
I can't answer you if you're saying two contradictions at once.
I'd agree with killa_robot's sentiment also.
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On February 24 2016 05:49 killa_robot wrote:
It's disappointing that you think enforcing laws, keeping businesses accountable, and ensuring all workers in the US have the same workplace rights and standards, is such a pointless waste of time.
I’m not. I proposed a similar way of doing it that avoided the need to deport the workers. You just decided to depict my points in a disingenuous manner. Which seem to be your main mode of argument, to be honest.
Also, for someone who is using the argument safety and workers rights, you seem to be forgetting that deportation is a messy, long process that can leave the worker in limbo for years. So making an argument that fining businesses is protecting them is false when that process will also lead to them being deported.
On February 24 2016 05:55 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:44 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. Except it isn’t available. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. Remember they need to sell the food to super markets. They can’t just jack up their prices and say “sorry, no more cheap labor.” It won’t sell. I'm hearing yet another conflicting set of propositions here: -So many people go to the USA illegally because immigration policy only accepts low numbers of unskilled laborers, we need to make it easier for them to come legally. -Necessary illegal labor costs less and can't be replaced by legal workers You can always increase subsidies while excising illegals from the industry. There's no excuse for people working below minimum wage and without fair conditions in the USA. What if I told you that people in the US don't want those jobs? At any pay scale that makes sense. Why are you trying to deport everyone when the solution is much easier? Issue them all work visas if they meet a set of reasonable requirements, pay them minimum wage. Problem solved. We fixed it. We can move on to fixing it for next year too. Issuing work visas (you) is not something that disagrees with reforming and expanding legal immigration (me). Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. I can't answer you if you're saying two contradictions at once. I'd agree with killa_robot's sentiment also.
Please provide evidence that US citizens will fill the void created by the deportation of the illegal immigrants. Because all the research I have seen is that we won’t do the work. I will take any research paper or study proving the labor market exist.
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On February 24 2016 05:42 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. I live in a border state and I can say that this is false. Often, non-immigrant labor is prohibitively expensive for otherwise highly productive and positive businesses. Good-faith immigrants are a boon to the economy. Not all immigrants are that (e.g. Syria), but most Mexican immigrants aren't drug traffickers or felons.
Did you just claim that Syrian immigrants are not there in good faith?
Other than that, I hear two separate arguments being mixed up, and the advocates of each side misunderstanding the other argument. I think that firstly, businesses are going to need to hire ppl legally at minimum wage (and taxes, health benefits and whatever else the law requires for legal employees). If a business (or entire industry due to foreign competition) cannot survive paying higher wages, then they have to go out of business.
That also means that consumers will have to accept paying more for their farm produce, construction, and whatever other sectors are rampant with illegal workers. Because regardless of whether there are US citizens who want to do those jobs for minimum wage, it is clear that current laborers are working for even less than that.
IMHO the best way of doing this is with a comprehensive reform that:
1. Provides a solution for the illegal workforce currently in the country (work visa, and dependent om time of residency, fast track for citizenship).
2. Immigration reform to make it easier for companies to contract foreign laborers, and for said laborers to get a working visa.
3. Rigorous control and hefty fines for employing illegal workers.
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On February 24 2016 05:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 05:55 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:44 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. Except it isn’t available. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. Remember they need to sell the food to super markets. They can’t just jack up their prices and say “sorry, no more cheap labor.” It won’t sell. I'm hearing yet another conflicting set of propositions here: -So many people go to the USA illegally because immigration policy only accepts low numbers of unskilled laborers, we need to make it easier for them to come legally. -Necessary illegal labor costs less and can't be replaced by legal workers You can always increase subsidies while excising illegals from the industry. There's no excuse for people working below minimum wage and without fair conditions in the USA. What if I told you that people in the US don't want those jobs? At any pay scale that makes sense. Why are you trying to deport everyone when the solution is much easier? Issue them all work visas if they meet a set of reasonable requirements, pay them minimum wage. Problem solved. We fixed it. We can move on to fixing it for next year too. Issuing work visas (you) is not something that disagrees with reforming and expanding legal immigration (me). On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:
pay them minimum wage. I can't answer you if you're saying two contradictions at once. I'd agree with killa_robot's sentiment also. Please provide evidence that US citizens will fill the void created by the deportation of the illegal immigrants. Because all the research I have seen is that we won’t do the work. I will take any research paper or study proving the labor market exist.
You've misunderstood something if you believe I'm taking a position in favor of US citizens working in unfair conditions and below minimum wage.
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On February 24 2016 06:03 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 05:57 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:55 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:44 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. Except it isn’t available. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. Remember they need to sell the food to super markets. They can’t just jack up their prices and say “sorry, no more cheap labor.” It won’t sell. I'm hearing yet another conflicting set of propositions here: -So many people go to the USA illegally because immigration policy only accepts low numbers of unskilled laborers, we need to make it easier for them to come legally. -Necessary illegal labor costs less and can't be replaced by legal workers You can always increase subsidies while excising illegals from the industry. There's no excuse for people working below minimum wage and without fair conditions in the USA. What if I told you that people in the US don't want those jobs? At any pay scale that makes sense. Why are you trying to deport everyone when the solution is much easier? Issue them all work visas if they meet a set of reasonable requirements, pay them minimum wage. Problem solved. We fixed it. We can move on to fixing it for next year too. Issuing work visas (you) is not something that disagrees with reforming and expanding legal immigration (me). On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:
pay them minimum wage. I can't answer you if you're saying two contradictions at once. I'd agree with killa_robot's sentiment also. Please provide evidence that US citizens will fill the void created by the deportation of the illegal immigrants. Because all the research I have seen is that we won’t do the work. I will take any research paper or study proving the labor market exist. You've misunderstood something if you believe I'm taking a position in favor of US citizens working in unfair conditions and below minimum wage.
I am starting to think your reading skills are terrible or broken, to be honest. Please provide evidence that US citizens would work these jobs at minimum wage or higher or they are being stolen by cheap labor. Because all studies say US citizens DO NOT WANT THESE JOBS AT ANY PAY SCALE FOR UNSKILLED LABOR.
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On February 24 2016 06:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 06:03 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:57 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:55 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:44 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. Except it isn’t available. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. Remember they need to sell the food to super markets. They can’t just jack up their prices and say “sorry, no more cheap labor.” It won’t sell. I'm hearing yet another conflicting set of propositions here: -So many people go to the USA illegally because immigration policy only accepts low numbers of unskilled laborers, we need to make it easier for them to come legally. -Necessary illegal labor costs less and can't be replaced by legal workers You can always increase subsidies while excising illegals from the industry. There's no excuse for people working below minimum wage and without fair conditions in the USA. What if I told you that people in the US don't want those jobs? At any pay scale that makes sense. Why are you trying to deport everyone when the solution is much easier? Issue them all work visas if they meet a set of reasonable requirements, pay them minimum wage. Problem solved. We fixed it. We can move on to fixing it for next year too. Issuing work visas (you) is not something that disagrees with reforming and expanding legal immigration (me). On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:
pay them minimum wage. I can't answer you if you're saying two contradictions at once. I'd agree with killa_robot's sentiment also. Please provide evidence that US citizens will fill the void created by the deportation of the illegal immigrants. Because all the research I have seen is that we won’t do the work. I will take any research paper or study proving the labor market exist. You've misunderstood something if you believe I'm taking a position in favor of US citizens working in unfair conditions and below minimum wage. I am starting to think your reading skills are terrible or broken, to be honest. Please provide evidence that US citizens would work these jobs at minimum wage or higher or they are being stolen by cheap labor. Because all studies say US citizens DO NOT WANT THESE JOBS AT ANY PAY SCALE FOR UNSKILLED LABOR.
I haven't argued that they would or do.
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im surprised to see arguments that suggest businesses paying illegal immigrants artificially low wages to provide goods and services at a low cost is good for the country. i think thats inherently immoral.
its just as immoral as the people who complain about long waits and lines if we ever had healthcare for all. what those people are really saying is they enjoy their priveledged arificially short lines and wait times being the end result of poorer people being unable to go to the doctor. both are terribly immoral. i cant believe anyone is actually ok with either of these
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On February 24 2016 06:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 06:03 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:57 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:55 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:44 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. Except it isn’t available. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. Remember they need to sell the food to super markets. They can’t just jack up their prices and say “sorry, no more cheap labor.” It won’t sell. I'm hearing yet another conflicting set of propositions here: -So many people go to the USA illegally because immigration policy only accepts low numbers of unskilled laborers, we need to make it easier for them to come legally. -Necessary illegal labor costs less and can't be replaced by legal workers You can always increase subsidies while excising illegals from the industry. There's no excuse for people working below minimum wage and without fair conditions in the USA. What if I told you that people in the US don't want those jobs? At any pay scale that makes sense. Why are you trying to deport everyone when the solution is much easier? Issue them all work visas if they meet a set of reasonable requirements, pay them minimum wage. Problem solved. We fixed it. We can move on to fixing it for next year too. Issuing work visas (you) is not something that disagrees with reforming and expanding legal immigration (me). On February 24 2016 05:27 Plansix wrote:On February 24 2016 05:19 oBlade wrote:On February 24 2016 05:11 Deathstar wrote:
killa robot is literally not making any sense. "The real question here is why are people so adamant on keeping broken businesses afloat" is not the real question nor is anyone asking this question. The businesses are not broken it's the industry that needs cheap labor. I think what he's saying is pretty simple - no business "needs" labor so cheap that they have to turn to illegal workers. Illegal labor is available, so people use it. They can’t find workers who will do the job at minimum wage and keep their prices in line. On February 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:
pay them minimum wage. I can't answer you if you're saying two contradictions at once. I'd agree with killa_robot's sentiment also. Please provide evidence that US citizens will fill the void created by the deportation of the illegal immigrants. Because all the research I have seen is that we won’t do the work. I will take any research paper or study proving the labor market exist. You've misunderstood something if you believe I'm taking a position in favor of US citizens working in unfair conditions and below minimum wage. I am starting to think your reading skills are terrible or broken, to be honest. Please provide evidence that US citizens would work these jobs at minimum wage or higher or they are being stolen by cheap labor. Because all studies say US citizens DO NOT WANT THESE JOBS AT ANY PAY SCALE FOR UNSKILLED LABOR.
Of course people do not WANT these jobs. But there are definitely people who are currently not contributing to society who could fill them, it is just currently you can maintain a higher, easier quality of life by leeching off the welfare system then working these "crappy" unskilled jobs. Thats a problem with the welfare system tbh. A restructuring of that could definitely help with the "shortage of legal unskilled labor". And I am not talking taking it away or anything, I am talking encouraging them to actually work in order to get government subsidization rather than incentivizing them doing nothing.
The truth is, at all rungs of the social ladder people do jobs that they do not "want" to do because that is what is required of them to make a living.
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On a related note if we had a big infrastructure program to fix our highways, bridges, etc. would we even have the labor capacity? At the risk of sounding ignorant, if farm labor is so distasteful how will we fill other manual labor jobs?
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The truly original argument of taking private jobs away from immigrants who want them so we can give them to people on “welfare”. Never mind the fact that most people on welfare already have jobs, but never let that get in the way of a good argument.
You are thinking of full disability. And those people are normally not capable of holding down a job for numerous reasons, which is why they were able to go through the legal process of obtaining disability.
On February 24 2016 06:42 ticklishmusic wrote:
On a related note if we had a big infrastructure program to fix our highways, bridges, etc. would we even have the labor capacity? At the risk of sounding ignorant, if farm labor is so distasteful how will we fill other manual labor jobs?
They pay better because they don't involve feeding people and perishable goods. You build a bridge, its there for a while, so the high cost of labor seem is worth it. Its not the same for farm work.
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If there are no Americans who want to do a job at its current pay rate, but you also won't allow illegals to do the job at that pay rate, it sounds like you need to offer more.
I don't buy that nobody would do them for any price. There's always a price.
However, I also don't buy that deporting millions of illegals (how do you plan to do that, anyway?) would suddenly create a jobs boom. It's more likely to cause a whole bunch of cleaning companies etc to collapse and nobody's trash to get taken out.
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How is "Provide them with work visa" or similar a solution, while saying that you can't target the companies employing those illegals?
If you legalize those illegals, they can't work in their jobs anymore, because then suddenly they would have to be paid like Americans. Which obviously the companies won't do. So they will just wait for more illegals, while those legalized immigrants are suddenly jobless. Great idea!
Or are you suggesting slave visa? "You can now legally work in the US, but US rights do not apply to you and you can be freely exploited. But hey, now you get legally exploited, thats an improvement, isn't it?"
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Yeah it's extremely silly to say that businesses can't afford to raise wages. Of course they can raise wages. The guys making insane profit are going to have to take a hit to their profit(god forbid!), or they are going to have to sell their goods or services for more money.
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On February 24 2016 06:46 mahrgell wrote:
How is "Provide them with work visa" or similar a solution, while saying that you can't target the companies employing those illegals?
If you legalize those illegals, they can't work in their jobs anymore, because then suddenly they would have to be paid like Americans. Which obviously the companies won't do. So they will just wait for more illegals, while those legalized immigrants are suddenly jobless. Great idea!
Or are you suggesting slave visa? "You can now legally work in the US, but US rights do not apply to you and you can be freely exploited. But hey, now you get legally exploited, thats an improvement, isn't it?"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/01/29/the-u-s-is-running-out-of-farm-workers-immigration-reform-may-not-help/
Its not just pay, its a labor shortage across the board. A guest worker program is a short term solution. Farm labor is in a rough place, legal or otherwise. But immigration reform and providing guest visas will help short term and can be part of the solution.
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Construction jobs, especially ones for the state/feds are fairly, high paying much coveted jobs as far as unskilled labor goes lol. At least in Alaska, and we have LOTS of road construction. Some 19 year old girl who spent 2 weeks in "flagging school" takes home like 30$ an hour for standing on the side of the road listening to music in one ear bud. (Just so she can hear the radio to tell her when to let people through still.) Construction in general pays fairly well up here and is a pretty good/common way for people with no skills or education to make a decent living. I've done a fair bit of it. I don't care for it, and prefer to make a living other ways but in point of fact if I ever have really bad fishing season or something I can always get short term work 20-25/hr under the table or ~30 legit running equipment because I've done a lot of it. The caveat here is that its actual work. But for a reasonably intelligent willing to actually expend physical effort young 18 year old you can make ~30k a year just working for some private contractor.
I guess the point here being that its not JUST the physical labor aspect. People would work the agriculture jobs at ~some pay level. I mean the "better" jobs for the illegals like sheetrocking/painting/landscaping etc in some of those states actually are filled by legals in most of the country. Is it entry-level work and physical labor? Yes. There are still people doing it for 12-15$/hr. (guy doing gruntwork landscaping in oregon for example makes about this) There is definitely a lot of merit to the argument that illegals fill those roles just because they are available and cheaper.
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On February 24 2016 06:45 Belisarius wrote:
If there are no Americans who want to do a job at its current pay rate, but you also won't allow illegals to do the job at that pay rate, it sounds like you need to offer more.
I don't buy that nobody would do them for any price. There's always a price.
However, I also don't buy that deporting millions of illegals (how do you plan to do that, anyway?) would suddenly create a jobs boom. It's more likely to cause a whole bunch of cleaning companies etc to collapse and nobody's trash to get taken out.
This.
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On February 24 2016 06:48 travis wrote:
Yeah it's extremely silly to say that businesses can't afford to raise wages. Of course they can raise wages. The guys making insane profit are going to have to take a hit to their profit(god forbid!), or they are going to have to sell their goods or services for more money.
Right. As I said, there is the simple fact that jobs filled by illegals in border states ARE BEING DONE ACROSS THE REST OF THE COUNTRY by legal workers. It just costs a hell of a lot more to get your house painted in New Hampshire than Utah. (Hint: People still get their houses painted.)
Agriculture IS the one specific field where there might actually be a labor shortage and is being propped up by illegals, I would guess that the long term solution there is actually as mentioned increased technology and efficiency. Grains production in the midwest for example requires very little unskilled labor and a whole lot of machinery. Hopefully we will get there at some point for fruits and vegetables too, but like everyone else in this thread I am not a farmer.
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The only issue with that is that its food. And when food costs rise, it has this well documents effect of causing civil unrest, riots and other really bad things. It is why governments are so keen to keep food prices in check. That part of the market needs to be addressed as well, either through government involvement or seasonal labor that is willing to work lower wages(above minimum), but is able to take the stronger US dollar back to their country.
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On February 24 2016 07:11 Plansix wrote:
The only issue with that is that its food. And when food costs rise, it has this well documents effect of causing civil unrest, riots and other really bad things. It is why governments are so keen to keep food prices in check. That part of the market needs to be addressed as well, either through government involvement or seasonal labor that is willing to work lower wages(above minimum), but is able to take the stronger US dollar back to their country.
Your position is untenable (unless you are advocating we stick with cheap illegal labor that can readily be exploited to keep the food cheap). Any legal workforce, seasonal or otherwise will cost more than the current illegal seasonal workforce. And government farming subsidies are evil. Get rid of them completely, they do far more harm than good.
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On February 24 2016 07:21 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2016 07:11 Plansix wrote:
The only issue with that is that its food. And when food costs rise, it has this well documents effect of causing civil unrest, riots and other really bad things. It is why governments are so keen to keep food prices in check. That part of the market needs to be addressed as well, either through government involvement or seasonal labor that is willing to work lower wages(above minimum), but is able to take the stronger US dollar back to their country. Your position is untenable (unless you are advocating we stick with cheap illegal labor that can readily be exploited to keep the food cheap). Any legal workforce, seasonal or otherwise will cost more than the current illegal seasonal workforce. And government farming subsidies are evil. Get rid of them completely, they do far more harm than good.
That post specific has the phrase "above minimum" after wages. Are you arguing with someone else by mistake?
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That's his point. Your current prices are dependent on illegal workers being paid below minimum wage. Any shift to a legal workforce, even one made of immigrants paid the bare legal minimum, will cost more than it currently does and cause an increase in prices.
I don't know about subsidies. They seem a reasonable enough idea over here.
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EPT
