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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On February 23 2016 12:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 12:07 oBlade wrote:
Excuse me, but you said "tens of millions of Americans." Would you mind clarifying this - you consider people who enter and live in the USA illegally to be Americans? Are you going somewhere with this amazing line of questioning? There are people who think that the illegal immigrants should have a path to citizenship as long as they are not horrible criminals. Which is better that the people who want to deport everyone because they like wasting money on useless shit.
I am suggesting that, despite what the post at the top of the page would have us believe, Trump has no stated interest in exiling American citizens, or if the miscommunication is elsewhere, that illegal immigrants aren't Americans, which while it may be obvious to you, is a misconception someone is apparently laboring under.
You may want them to stay here (perhaps because it's easier if nothing else), you may want a path to legalization, you might even want a path to citizenship - which to me is an insult to everyone who is observing patience and diligence and waiting to immigrate to the US legally - but they're not Americans.
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Trumps grandfather lived in the US for 6 years before he moved accross the country and obtained his citicenship... president trump would have had him deported way earlier than that.. who needs a poor low skilled german hair stylist?
edit: fuck i just realized trumps hair definitly needs it...
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On February 23 2016 12:21 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 12:07 Plansix wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 oBlade wrote:
Excuse me, but you said "tens of millions of Americans." Would you mind clarifying this - you consider people who enter and live in the USA illegally to be Americans? Are you going somewhere with this amazing line of questioning? There are people who think that the illegal immigrants should have a path to citizenship as long as they are not horrible criminals. Which is better that the people who want to deport everyone because they like wasting money on useless shit. I am suggesting that, despite what the post at the top of the page would have us believe, Trump has no stated interest in exiling American citizens, or if the miscommunication is elsewhere, that illegal immigrants aren't Americans, which while it may be obvious to you, is a misconception someone is apparently laboring under. You may want them to stay here (perhaps because it's easier if nothing else), you may want a path to legalization, you might even want a path to citizenship - which to me is an insult to everyone who is observing patience and diligence and waiting to immigrate to the US legally - but they're not Americans.
To be honest, I am not really concerned with their feelings and how insulted they are. This isn't some abstract issue of moral and who is more deserving. The US people and our government have kicked this can to far down the road with that sort of moral absolutism. Now we have 11 million undocumented immigrants and the number is growing. Deporting all of them is a terrible idea. It will be amazingly expensive. We will fuck it up and deport a lot of the wrong people. It will look like a living nightmare, causing mass protests and horrible images nation wide. And it will take forever. Like years upon years.
It is not a viable option and never has been. Republicans need to stop lying to people claiming it is just to pander for votes. We don't have the political will to pull that trigger over such a stupid issue.
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On February 23 2016 12:07 oBlade wrote:
Excuse me, but you said "tens of millions of Americans." Would you mind clarifying this - you consider people who enter and live in the USA illegally to be Americans?
But of course you're right. My labels were incorrect. My apologies.
Honestly I understand that illegal immigration is a problem. But I also believe America played a part in that problem. We wanted their cheap labor just as much as they wanted to get paid for their hard work. It really is no different than if a company outsourced their factory overseas. Apple is not moving their factories back from China no matter what we do. Even if we got rid of all of the illegal immigrants, do you really think the country would somehow be inundated with high paying American jobs?
I think a hard-earned path to legalization makes sense for both sides. I get that that's divisive, but the alternatives seem untenable to me.
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On February 23 2016 12:21 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 12:07 Plansix wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 oBlade wrote:
Excuse me, but you said "tens of millions of Americans." Would you mind clarifying this - you consider people who enter and live in the USA illegally to be Americans? Are you going somewhere with this amazing line of questioning? There are people who think that the illegal immigrants should have a path to citizenship as long as they are not horrible criminals. Which is better that the people who want to deport everyone because they like wasting money on useless shit. I am suggesting that, despite what the post at the top of the page would have us believe, Trump has no stated interest in exiling American citizens, or if the miscommunication is elsewhere, that illegal immigrants aren't Americans, which while it may be obvious to you, is a misconception someone is apparently laboring under. You may want them to stay here (perhaps because it's easier if nothing else), you may want a path to legalization, you might even want a path to citizenship - which to me is an insult to everyone who is observing patience and diligence and waiting to immigrate to the US legally - but they're not Americans.
I dunno, this whole idea of American exceptionalism seems ridiculous to me in this day and age. The fact that someone like Trump could even be considered for our highest office speaks volumes of how unexceptional we are. I truly empathize with immigrants trying to come here legally; I have a roommate that tells me his hardships staying here on a work visa, trying to get his green card. It sucks. But I think we should be moving in the direction of making it easier for everyone, not harder. Throwing down the hammer on mexican migrants will not make it any better for my immigrant friend.
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On February 23 2016 12:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 12:21 oBlade wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 Plansix wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 oBlade wrote:
Excuse me, but you said "tens of millions of Americans." Would you mind clarifying this - you consider people who enter and live in the USA illegally to be Americans? Are you going somewhere with this amazing line of questioning? There are people who think that the illegal immigrants should have a path to citizenship as long as they are not horrible criminals. Which is better that the people who want to deport everyone because they like wasting money on useless shit. I am suggesting that, despite what the post at the top of the page would have us believe, Trump has no stated interest in exiling American citizens, or if the miscommunication is elsewhere, that illegal immigrants aren't Americans, which while it may be obvious to you, is a misconception someone is apparently laboring under. You may want them to stay here (perhaps because it's easier if nothing else), you may want a path to legalization, you might even want a path to citizenship - which to me is an insult to everyone who is observing patience and diligence and waiting to immigrate to the US legally - but they're not Americans. To be honest, I am not really concerned with their feelings and how insulted they are.
They will immigrate somewhere else in the meantime, which is our loss, while the people just waltzing in without skills (without basically anything) continue to be a factor in who we actually let in. I will even grant that we should take people in from all classes. But the lowliest, most untrained, uneducated, unskilled guy, can't he also follow the law and come here legally?
On February 23 2016 12:29 Plansix wrote:
This isn't some abstract issue of moral and who is more deserving.
You are making a determination of who is deserving when you say you want a path to legalization for people who are here uninvited. The determination could be right or wrong, the specifics are up for debate, but immigration policy is absolutely fucking about who deserves to come to a country. Your language is saying that someone who pays to smuggle themselves in the back of a semi with 30 other people is more important than my college-educated, English-speaking friend just because he set foot on US soil first. If that's your position, then realize it, but don't make that claim and then shy away from it.
On February 23 2016 12:29 Plansix wrote:
The US people and our government have kicked this can to far down the road with that sort of moral absolutism. Now we have 11 million undocumented immigrants and the number is growing. Deporting all of them is a terrible idea. It will be amazingly expensive. We will fuck it up and deport a lot of the wrong people. It will look like a living nightmare, causing mass protests and horrible images nation wide. And it will take forever. Like years upon years.
So as I said before, his bark is worse than his bite. The fact that a problem is apparently insurmountable hardly excuses it from being an issue. It's also hard for me to imagine a lot of legal residents getting deported in any case, but whatever.
Or are you saying the government can't do things that cause protests? Is that a factor now?
On February 23 2016 12:29 Plansix wrote:
It is not a viable option and never has been. Republicans need to stop lying to people claiming it is just to pander for votes. We don't have the political will to pull that trigger over such a stupid issue.
And Democrats and Republicans should both stop ignoring the issue of the border when there's a cartel civil war in Mexico pumping drugs into US markets and exacerbating gang violence (I didn't miss the end of the war on drugs, did I, did we win, or is there still a recent surge in heroin problem), stop ignoring illegal immigration and favoring sanctuary cities just because it isn't politically expedient to discuss actually tackling a tangible problem.
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everybody who is born on American soil is American, right even if their parents are illegals? Do people really want to split families apart and send the kids into foster homes? It's just like the refugee debate, I think it's really pathetic to fall back to some legal mode of thinking were everybody without proper papers ceases being a human. Someone who works and lives in the US has a legitimate case to consider themselves American.
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On February 23 2016 12:46 strongwind wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 12:21 oBlade wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 Plansix wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 oBlade wrote:
Excuse me, but you said "tens of millions of Americans." Would you mind clarifying this - you consider people who enter and live in the USA illegally to be Americans? Are you going somewhere with this amazing line of questioning? There are people who think that the illegal immigrants should have a path to citizenship as long as they are not horrible criminals. Which is better that the people who want to deport everyone because they like wasting money on useless shit. I am suggesting that, despite what the post at the top of the page would have us believe, Trump has no stated interest in exiling American citizens, or if the miscommunication is elsewhere, that illegal immigrants aren't Americans, which while it may be obvious to you, is a misconception someone is apparently laboring under. You may want them to stay here (perhaps because it's easier if nothing else), you may want a path to legalization, you might even want a path to citizenship - which to me is an insult to everyone who is observing patience and diligence and waiting to immigrate to the US legally - but they're not Americans. I dunno, this whole idea of American exceptionalism seems ridiculous to me in this day and age. The fact that someone like Trump could even be considered for our highest office speaks volumes of how unexceptional we are. I truly empathize with immigrants trying to come here legally; I have a roommate that tells me his hardships staying here on a work visa, trying to get his green card. It sucks. But I think we should be moving in the direction of making it easier for everyone, not harder. Throwing down the hammer on mexican migrants will not make it any better for my immigrant friend.
Ironically, what's exceptional about America is that it is one of the only nations of immigrants. Where, historically, "showing up" has been enough to merit membership in the club. Try doing that in almost any other country! But it shouldn't be too much to ask for people to come in obeyance of the law of the place they supposedly respect enough to want to make it their home.
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On February 23 2016 13:08 Nyxisto wrote:
everybody who is born on American soil is American, right even if their parents are illegals? Do people really want to split families apart and send the kids into foster homes? It's just like the refugee debate, I think it's really pathetic to fall back to some legal mode of thinking were everybody without proper papers ceases being a human. Someone who works and lives in the US has a legitimate case to consider themselves American.
Same dumb arguments too. It's worse because everyone dodges the issue that deporting 11 million people would be a nightmare and just talks about how no one is addressing the problem in Mexico or something. Reality and the cost of the process does not compute for most of the anti path to citizenship crowd.
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On February 23 2016 13:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 13:08 Nyxisto wrote:
everybody who is born on American soil is American, right even if their parents are illegals? Do people really want to split families apart and send the kids into foster homes? It's just like the refugee debate, I think it's really pathetic to fall back to some legal mode of thinking were everybody without proper papers ceases being a human. Someone who works and lives in the US has a legitimate case to consider themselves American. Same dumb arguments too. It's worse because everyone dodges the issue that deporting 11 million people would be a nightmare and just talks about how no one is addressing the problem in Mexico or something. Reality and the cost of the process does not compute for most of the anti path to citizenship crowd.
The strange thing is last year i saw stats that claimed more illegals are going back to Mexico than were now arriving in the USA.With the collapse in the peso the last 6 months i don't know if thats still the case but the fact remains : the US job market is far weaker than it was in the 90s up to the mid 2000s.
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On February 23 2016 13:04 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 12:29 Plansix wrote:On February 23 2016 12:21 oBlade wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 Plansix wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 oBlade wrote:
Excuse me, but you said "tens of millions of Americans." Would you mind clarifying this - you consider people who enter and live in the USA illegally to be Americans? Are you going somewhere with this amazing line of questioning? There are people who think that the illegal immigrants should have a path to citizenship as long as they are not horrible criminals. Which is better that the people who want to deport everyone because they like wasting money on useless shit. I am suggesting that, despite what the post at the top of the page would have us believe, Trump has no stated interest in exiling American citizens, or if the miscommunication is elsewhere, that illegal immigrants aren't Americans, which while it may be obvious to you, is a misconception someone is apparently laboring under. You may want them to stay here (perhaps because it's easier if nothing else), you may want a path to legalization, you might even want a path to citizenship - which to me is an insult to everyone who is observing patience and diligence and waiting to immigrate to the US legally - but they're not Americans. To be honest, I am not really concerned with their feelings and how insulted they are. They will immigrate somewhere else in the meantime, which is our loss, while the people just waltzing in without skills (without basically anything) continue to be a factor in who we actually let in. I will even grant that we should take people in from all classes. But the lowliest, most untrained, uneducated, unskilled guy, can't he also follow the law and come here legally?
I understand what you're trying to do here, but I find it very disingenuous to infer that coming here legally is a simple and easy process. You need thousands of dollars in applications and lawyers fees and many years of waiting (sometimes more than a decade) depending on the country you're emigrating from, just as a start. These are things the lowliest might have some trouble with.
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On February 23 2016 13:09 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 12:46 strongwind wrote:On February 23 2016 12:21 oBlade wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 Plansix wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 oBlade wrote:
Excuse me, but you said "tens of millions of Americans." Would you mind clarifying this - you consider people who enter and live in the USA illegally to be Americans? Are you going somewhere with this amazing line of questioning? There are people who think that the illegal immigrants should have a path to citizenship as long as they are not horrible criminals. Which is better that the people who want to deport everyone because they like wasting money on useless shit. I am suggesting that, despite what the post at the top of the page would have us believe, Trump has no stated interest in exiling American citizens, or if the miscommunication is elsewhere, that illegal immigrants aren't Americans, which while it may be obvious to you, is a misconception someone is apparently laboring under. You may want them to stay here (perhaps because it's easier if nothing else), you may want a path to legalization, you might even want a path to citizenship - which to me is an insult to everyone who is observing patience and diligence and waiting to immigrate to the US legally - but they're not Americans. I dunno, this whole idea of American exceptionalism seems ridiculous to me in this day and age. The fact that someone like Trump could even be considered for our highest office speaks volumes of how unexceptional we are. I truly empathize with immigrants trying to come here legally; I have a roommate that tells me his hardships staying here on a work visa, trying to get his green card. It sucks. But I think we should be moving in the direction of making it easier for everyone, not harder. Throwing down the hammer on mexican migrants will not make it any better for my immigrant friend. Ironically, what's exceptional about America is that it is one of the only nations of immigrants. Where, historically, "showing up" has been enough to merit membership in the club. Try doing that in almost any other country! But it shouldn't be too much to ask for people to come in obeyance of the law of the place they supposedly respect enough to want to make it their home.
.. eh?
That i'd like to be sourced. Because factually, it never was. Certainly not in your, or my lifetime, and i'm 34 years old. What is true is that your country was built on and by immigrants. Long, long ago. So long, that stating it as an argument against or for any recent politics is actually rather stupid.
The point of "try doing that in any other country" is dumb too, i think only australia is more thorough in regards to border control. Pretty much the whole of africa springs to mind. Or, in fact, europe. Like, pretty much ANY other country. And i just recently moved to another country.
Well, they did build the biggest concentration camp the world has ever seen, so there's that.
If you're talking about them not participating in genocide, well.. Maybe. Depends. They certainly do use indiscriminate weaponry against confirmed (before an attack) civilians, including hospitals. That's not necessarily genocide, obviously, but a war crime. Which nobody gives a shit about, because poor jews. Then there's something called expansionism and irredentism (+ Show Spoiler +Irredentism (from Italian irredento for "unredeemed") is any political or popular movement intended to reclaim and reoccupy a lost homeland. As such irredentism tries to justify its territorial claims on the basis of (real or imagined) historic or ethnic affiliations. It is often advocated by nationalist and pan-nationalist movements and has been a feature of identity politics, cultural, and political geography.
While i agree that they're not necessarily "neo-nazis", they're certainly on their way to being fascists. As some people of the jewish community are actually aware of (http://www.haaretz.com/fascism-is-already-here-1.311858 / http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-winner-berlin-film-festival-berlinale-fascist-udi-aloni-netanyahu-a6887486.html).
And the strangest thing is, nobody gives a shit. In fact, if you go ahead and criticize the knesset for what they're doing, you're labelled an anti semite. As happened over and over again here.
edit: no idea why that hareetz link isn't working properly.
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On February 23 2016 13:55 strongwind wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 13:04 oBlade wrote:On February 23 2016 12:29 Plansix wrote:On February 23 2016 12:21 oBlade wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 Plansix wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 oBlade wrote:
Excuse me, but you said "tens of millions of Americans." Would you mind clarifying this - you consider people who enter and live in the USA illegally to be Americans? Are you going somewhere with this amazing line of questioning? There are people who think that the illegal immigrants should have a path to citizenship as long as they are not horrible criminals. Which is better that the people who want to deport everyone because they like wasting money on useless shit. I am suggesting that, despite what the post at the top of the page would have us believe, Trump has no stated interest in exiling American citizens, or if the miscommunication is elsewhere, that illegal immigrants aren't Americans, which while it may be obvious to you, is a misconception someone is apparently laboring under. You may want them to stay here (perhaps because it's easier if nothing else), you may want a path to legalization, you might even want a path to citizenship - which to me is an insult to everyone who is observing patience and diligence and waiting to immigrate to the US legally - but they're not Americans. To be honest, I am not really concerned with their feelings and how insulted they are. They will immigrate somewhere else in the meantime, which is our loss, while the people just waltzing in without skills (without basically anything) continue to be a factor in who we actually let in. I will even grant that we should take people in from all classes. But the lowliest, most untrained, uneducated, unskilled guy, can't he also follow the law and come here legally? I understand what you're trying to do here, but I find it very disingenuous to infer that coming here legally is a simple and easy process. You need thousands of dollars in applications and lawyers fees and many years of waiting (sometimes more than a decade) depending on the country you're emigrating from, just as a start. These are things the lowliest might have some trouble with.
I'm not implying that. I'm suggesting part of immigration reform, in addition to curbing illegal immigration, should be making it the process of coming here legally much less obnoxious for people in the future. But the fact that it's hard is not an excuse for people disobeying the law and disrespecting the country's border.
On February 23 2016 13:55 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 13:09 oBlade wrote:On February 23 2016 12:46 strongwind wrote:On February 23 2016 12:21 oBlade wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 Plansix wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 oBlade wrote:
Excuse me, but you said "tens of millions of Americans." Would you mind clarifying this - you consider people who enter and live in the USA illegally to be Americans? Are you going somewhere with this amazing line of questioning? There are people who think that the illegal immigrants should have a path to citizenship as long as they are not horrible criminals. Which is better that the people who want to deport everyone because they like wasting money on useless shit. I am suggesting that, despite what the post at the top of the page would have us believe, Trump has no stated interest in exiling American citizens, or if the miscommunication is elsewhere, that illegal immigrants aren't Americans, which while it may be obvious to you, is a misconception someone is apparently laboring under. You may want them to stay here (perhaps because it's easier if nothing else), you may want a path to legalization, you might even want a path to citizenship - which to me is an insult to everyone who is observing patience and diligence and waiting to immigrate to the US legally - but they're not Americans. I dunno, this whole idea of American exceptionalism seems ridiculous to me in this day and age. The fact that someone like Trump could even be considered for our highest office speaks volumes of how unexceptional we are. I truly empathize with immigrants trying to come here legally; I have a roommate that tells me his hardships staying here on a work visa, trying to get his green card. It sucks. But I think we should be moving in the direction of making it easier for everyone, not harder. Throwing down the hammer on mexican migrants will not make it any better for my immigrant friend. Ironically, what's exceptional about America is that it is one of the only nations of immigrants. Where, historically, "showing up" has been enough to merit membership in the club. Try doing that in almost any other country! But it shouldn't be too much to ask for people to come in obeyance of the law of the place they supposedly respect enough to want to make it their home. .. eh? That i'd like to be sourced. Because factually, it never was. Certainly not in your, or my lifetime, and i'm 34 years old. What is true is that your country was built on and by immigrants. Long, long ago. So long, that stating it as an argument against or for any recent politics is actually rather stupid. The point of "try doing that in any other country" is dumb too, i think only australia is more thorough in regards to border control. Pretty much the whole of africa springs to mind. Or, in fact, europe. Like, pretty much ANY other country. And i just recently moved to another country.
Because of vague antecedents, I honestly don't know what you're asking me to cite.
The Schengen zone is a lot different than what we're talking about between the USA and Mexico. Free travel - until very recently - has not been an issue in the EU because there's not millions of illegal immigrants relocating between, say, France and Germany. Although you can see now the political stresses the migrant crisis are having, just to show how fickle the Schengen zone can be.
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On February 23 2016 11:39 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 11:06 xDaunt wrote:On February 23 2016 10:18 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 23 2016 09:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Yes and no, it's a bit hard to tell with caucuses. NH turned out very well, even considering any advantages he may have had there. <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3 Actually I'm willing to drop the banbet, I'd miss having a reasonable (and as xDaunt says, intellectually honest) Bernie supporter here and probably just not touch this thread for a month. GH is Bernie-splaining to no end. I've decided not to be annoyed but entertained by it for the most part. I think GH deserves an achievement award for most improved poster. He's actually been tolerable for some time now. I'm going to go ahead and say that he's more palatable to you because you don't really have a horse in this race and you agree with his Hillary bashing. Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 10:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 23 2016 10:18 ticklishmusic wrote:On February 23 2016 09:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Yes and no, it's a bit hard to tell with caucuses. NH turned out very well, even considering any advantages he may have had there. <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3 Actually I'm willing to drop the banbet, I'd miss having a reasonable (and as xDaunt says, intellectually honest) Bernie supporter here and probably just not touch this thread for a month. GH is Bernie-splaining to no end. I've decided not to be annoyed but entertained by it for the most part. Oh well now that's just sad. "Bernie-splaining" really? What does "Bernie-splaining" even mean to you*? Your ability to explain why Hillary Schillary is losing and St. Bernard is winning (sometimes with an asterisk) despite the evil so-and-so's.
Hillary is what she is. Bernie ain't no saint and as someone who voted for Obama (I presume) you should know that's bull.
There's a difference between mindlessly ranting about Illuminati type conspiracies with "evil so-and-so's" and pointing out her campaign is financed and run by lobbyists and wall street and that's not good. That she is pulling every underhanded trick she can, including but not limited to, having a super PAC headed by the same "formally" right wing jerk off that slandered the hell out of Anita Hill while simultaneously holding onto the black vote.
The media and everyone has admitted that the DNC obviously tried to rig the process (and hell the media was part of it too) yet somehow pointing all that out or pointing out how it didn't stop at the debates becomes some sort of Bernie-splaining... Give me a break.
Just sucks having someone on the left call out the Democratic party for their crap and I can see why that would be upsetting.
EDIT: Oh and Trump said he would deport the undocumented immigrant's American children too. Not sure how many there are, but with 11 million people Trump very well could be talking about deporting millions of Americans as well as the 11 million undocumented folks.
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On February 23 2016 13:26 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2016 09:01 puerk wrote:
he is talking about how neo nazis are killing russians in the ukraine, the unprovoked unilateral genocide of a whole people....
@iplay.nettles nope enforcing national purity by imposing a ban on all of some impure kind, even those that have up to now been legal citicens and now denying them their rights is pretty much exactly what nazis are about.... as is trump By that definition Israel/ Netenyahoo are nazis.See how ridiculous you are being?
Off topic and disagree with bringing the nazis into all conversations but that sounds about right to me actually.
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On February 23 2016 13:08 Nyxisto wrote:
everybody who is born on American soil is American, right even if their parents are illegals? Do people really want to split families apart and send the kids into foster homes? It's just like the refugee debate, I think it's really pathetic to fall back to some legal mode of thinking were everybody without proper papers ceases being a human. Someone who works and lives in the US has a legitimate case to consider themselves American.
Yes, this is what I can't take about America. Citizen = sense of belonging to a community, language, culture. The fact that two mexicans illegally enter the country and the woman giving birth to a child who automatically becomes american - true bullshit
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On February 23 2016 16:31 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 13:08 Nyxisto wrote:
everybody who is born on American soil is American, right even if their parents are illegals? Do people really want to split families apart and send the kids into foster homes? It's just like the refugee debate, I think it's really pathetic to fall back to some legal mode of thinking were everybody without proper papers ceases being a human. Someone who works and lives in the US has a legitimate case to consider themselves American. Yes, this is what I can't take about America. Citizen = sense of belonging to a community, language, culture. The fact that two mexicans illegally enter the country and the woman giving birth to a child who automatically becomes american - true bullshit
It's not just America, that's how Cruz got his Canadian citizenship.
Of the many problems we have as a country, children of undocumented immigrants being Americans isn't one of them.
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United States22883 Posts
On February 23 2016 14:09 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 13:55 strongwind wrote:On February 23 2016 13:04 oBlade wrote:On February 23 2016 12:29 Plansix wrote:On February 23 2016 12:21 oBlade wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 Plansix wrote:On February 23 2016 12:07 oBlade wrote:
Excuse me, but you said "tens of millions of Americans." Would you mind clarifying this - you consider people who enter and live in the USA illegally to be Americans? Are you going somewhere with this amazing line of questioning? There are people who think that the illegal immigrants should have a path to citizenship as long as they are not horrible criminals. Which is better that the people who want to deport everyone because they like wasting money on useless shit. I am suggesting that, despite what the post at the top of the page would have us believe, Trump has no stated interest in exiling American citizens, or if the miscommunication is elsewhere, that illegal immigrants aren't Americans, which while it may be obvious to you, is a misconception someone is apparently laboring under. You may want them to stay here (perhaps because it's easier if nothing else), you may want a path to legalization, you might even want a path to citizenship - which to me is an insult to everyone who is observing patience and diligence and waiting to immigrate to the US legally - but they're not Americans. To be honest, I am not really concerned with their feelings and how insulted they are. They will immigrate somewhere else in the meantime, which is our loss, while the people just waltzing in without skills (without basically anything) continue to be a factor in who we actually let in. I will even grant that we should take people in from all classes. But the lowliest, most untrained, uneducated, unskilled guy, can't he also follow the law and come here legally? I understand what you're trying to do here, but I find it very disingenuous to infer that coming here legally is a simple and easy process. You need thousands of dollars in applications and lawyers fees and many years of waiting (sometimes more than a decade) depending on the country you're emigrating from, just as a start. These are things the lowliest might have some trouble with. I'm not implying that. I'm suggesting part of immigration reform, in addition to curbing illegal immigration, should be making it the process of coming here legally much less obnoxious for people in the future. But the fact that it's hard is not an excuse for people disobeying the law and disrespecting the country's border. I think you're too caught up on the idea of fairness (which is a common take I see from Asian Americans.) It's not simply that it's hard, it's that it's hard and in the meantime they face fairly dire straights and as a whole they make significant contributions when they're here. Your friend is far less likely to be immigrating for their own survival.
Beyond that, we've become dependent on it. The level of immigration reform, and the expediency required, is never going to be achieved in today's political climate, yet at the same time tens of billions of dollars of our economy depends on those immigrants.
It's not fair to your friend, but your friend is likely coming from a better situation and is more able to handle the hardship of the current process. Your friend is also likely to have a job that requires more of the government's attention than a minimum wage farm worker. For the sake of the country in the short term, we're better off that they turn a blind eye.
The Schengen zone is a lot different than what we're talking about between the USA and Mexico. Free travel - until very recently - has not been an issue in the EU because there's not millions of illegal immigrants relocating between, say, France and Germany. Although you can see now the political stresses the migrant crisis are having, just to show how fickle the Schengen zone can be. It's been an issue since its inception, actually. It's how the term Fortress Europe gained new meaning.
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On February 23 2016 16:31 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2016 13:08 Nyxisto wrote:
everybody who is born on American soil is American, right even if their parents are illegals? Do people really want to split families apart and send the kids into foster homes? It's just like the refugee debate, I think it's really pathetic to fall back to some legal mode of thinking were everybody without proper papers ceases being a human. Someone who works and lives in the US has a legitimate case to consider themselves American. Yes, this is what I can't take about America. Citizen = sense of belonging to a community, language, culture. The fact that two mexicans illegally enter the country and the woman giving birth to a child who automatically becomes american - true bullshit
Please, let's be real here. Being a citizen is just a piece of paper that determines which liberties are taken away from you. Nothing to do with the 'sense of belonging'.
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EPT
