EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2977
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Deleted User 173346
16169 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 21 2016 11:20 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I recognise the problem but redistributing wealth is not the answer.Socialism does not work, Venezuela is the latest in a long line of disasters. well if history serves right the alternative is armed revolution every once in a while | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On February 21 2016 10:53 On_Slaught wrote: Such willful ignirance. The obvious subtext is that Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim, which is something the majority of his supporters no doubt believe. You dig the willful blind generalizations out of your hate. He wouldn't even get the muslim poll numbers if his policies and actions weren't so aligned with favorability. Let's get another speech on a terrorist attack focusing on the pre-post-attack backlash and condemning it! So take the ignorance of your own ignorance elsewhere. On February 21 2016 10:55 Nyxisto wrote: Sure there's 30% of people in whatever country willing to eat this stuff up and I have little idea about American primaries honestly so I don't know how much Trump's success until now actually means but it is utterly ridiculous how his persona continues to survive and is immune to criticism. It's a complete erosion of politics in regards to civility, reason and so on. It's like reality television. I get why you would generalize this to the overall persona, I really do. He's over the top and he's dedicated to anti-PC statements in all forms and subjects. Douglas Adams did a good series on the statement and others in (link) an article and (link) the series. Let me add some short comments on the "immune to criticism" and "civility & reason" parts. First, GOP supporters have seen much of the criticism of Trump to itself be overblown and unfounded. It started with immigration, how the TV news and columnists marginalized supporters of a border fence as the first step to comprehensive immigration reform. Now Trump emphatically states that view in yuuuge press conferences, relates its impact, covers sanctuary cities, and deservedly wins support. The predictable response of establishment figures in both parties is the exact same establishment mainstream view that got people riled up in the first place—so it's easily swept away. If there had been a vibrant debate on immigration with all positions considered, there would be no Trump or he'd have to try his luck on a new central issue. Disparage your sincerely held view for decades and see if you also don't give the first guy you hear supporting your viewpoint some leeway in criticism. Now, how about the charge that he's being uncivil and unreasonable. His supporters and the conservative base of the GOP have for some time now regarded Obama's deeply vindictive speeches as about as uncivil as it gets. He takes executive power to new levels, and presumes to lecture the other side about what idiots they are for calling it that. Talk about Muslim violence in the middle east and he'll bring up the crusades, an extreme level of religious conflation. On nearly every policy disagreement he straw-mans the opposition, whether he calls it based on racist or outgroup-based or inherently against American values. I know many readers are coming from an American liberal mindset, so you might agree with Obama on his stances. However, you haven't gone through 7 years of Obama trashing mainstream conservative values that you hold and showing outright contempt for state rights and the rule of law. He's an incredibly partisan politician and is responsible for his behavior towards his political opponents. I say the GOP base has grown tired of sincerely uncivil and unreasonable comments and actions from the current president and his administration (case can also be brought for the Bush attackers of yesteryear), dressed up in flowery language and condescending fortune-cookie aphorisms (RIP Scalia). The first guy to repeatedly fight back on a big podium with bombast ignites the reserves of indignation. Call it inciting incivility if you want. It's been going on for some time now. To cite a Germany example, just to reaffirm my conceptual basis, you think Merkel's administration would've received the same verbal disparagement had it not covered up the sex attacks that occured on new year's eve? To conclude, the left has fundamentally eroded the civil debate and the appeal to reason for long enough, and only now are receiving back the fruits of their labors. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Introvert
United States5029 Posts
I will say that from Carson's perspective, that's probably his exact reasoning. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24354 Posts
On February 21 2016 11:17 KwarK wrote: I read recently that American manufacturing has never been stronger and the problem in terms of employment is that it has been increasingly mechanized which ought to be fantastic news. If we were content with 1950s quality of life then we could just divide that bountiful productivity between the people, most of whom wouldn't have to go to work. The problem is too much success and technology in the face of an economic model that assumes employment is the only way in which a person can contribute for society. At some point we're going to have to start redistributing wealth from the people who own the machines and paying people to be parents, community organisers and so forth. Or you just make sure there are many, many, many less people/machines to manage. Impoverished and middle class masses were a necessity there's no reason to be sure when they aren't that they will be kept around for altruistic purposes. This is why I don't understand why the concentration of wealth doesn't concern more people. If you're not an epic gardener or needed to maintain the lifestyle of the wealthy they have no interest in keeping you any longer than necessary. Right now, natural resource extraction/maintenance/distribution is one of the only thing keeping masses of impoverished people from just being dead and forgotten. Military conflict still being susceptible to massive infantries being another big one. Take away those two motivations for keeping people around and you can bet life saving medication and sustainable wages will quickly begin to evaporate. One fundamental problem with it all is the myth that it's some sort of meritocracy, it's not. Unless you count being remotely competent and not losing a rigged game, there are very few who would not be expunged even from the top strata of society who remained as a result of honest and meritorious works. | ||
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oBlade
United States6498 Posts
On February 21 2016 11:48 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: It seems Cruz has made a mortal enemy of Carson who is staying in the race for the sole purpose of being a Cruz spoiler. Cruz camp should not have lowered themselves to dirty tricks to win Iowa. Interesting dynamic going on then - Christie kills Rubio in the debate shortly before suspending his campaign, and Carson staying in to undermine Cruz in order to get a high spot (like VP) later in a Trump administration. Also, spot-on post, Danglars. | ||
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JW_DTLA
242 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4452 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4452 Posts
On February 21 2016 11:57 JW_DTLA wrote: I love the argument that Obama is to blame for Trump's bigotry and deceptions. Who needs personal responsibility right? Republican primary voters can't even be held responsible for their own votes. Everyone agrees that race relations are worse than before Obomba.The man and the democratic party as a whole have increasingly resorted to identity politics.Plenty of people are not happy with this.The USA is heading in the wrong direction under the current democrat administration.Thats not even talking about the 10 trillion in debt added by the man.Almost a bad a president as Bush Jr. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 21 2016 11:45 Danglars wrote: I say the GOP base has grown tired of sincerely uncivil and unreasonable comments and actions from the current president and his administration (case can also be brought for the Bush attackers of yesteryear), dressed up in flowery language and condescending fortune-cookie aphorisms (RIP Scalia). The first guy to repeatedly fight back on a big podium with bombast ignites the reserves of indignation. Call it inciting incivility if you want. It's been going on for some time now. To cite a Germany example, just to reaffirm my conceptual basis, you think Merkel's administration would've received the same verbal disparagement had it not covered up the sex attacks that occured on new year's eve? To conclude, the left has fundamentally eroded the civil debate and the appeal to reason for long enough, and only now are receiving back the fruits of their labors. Yes sure you can probably give some blame to the 'establishment' in the US as well as in Europe to not listen to a certain part of their population, marginalizing them and so on and that's obviously where some of the backlash comes from including the stuff Merkel has had to endure, but Obama has never said or done anything that is even remotely comparable to the stuff he faces. Large parts of the Republican voterbase literally seem to believe that he is either a Muslim or not American, and that is 100% grounded in his biography as a black man with Hussein as a second name. If he would be John von Wienerschnitzel descending from German Protestants he wouldn't be facing these accusations. There ought to be some line where this stuff ends and politics begins. Yes Merkel get's a lot of those comments as well, but not from other politicians or candidates, but tone is getting more raw here as well. There is a certain part of the population that seems to be so intrinsically anti-pluralist and extremist that they can not participate in a democracy and the political system, and the political system as a whole has the job to signal that and not agitate them further. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 21 2016 12:01 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Everyone agrees that race relations are worse than before Obomba.The man and the democratic party as a whole have increasingly resorted to identity politics.Plenty of people are not happy with this.The USA is heading in the wrong direction under the current democrat administration.Thats not even talking about the 10 trillion in debt added by the man.Almost a bad a president as Bush Jr. yeah pretty much noone considers Trump a 2nd option. I find it REALLY unlikely for former Bush supporterrs to get over to Cruz as well. Although not as unlikely as for them to change to Trump, so yes probably just all wandering over to Rubio minus a couple who are going to stay at home? So overall I'd say Cruz is hurt by this way more than Trump because now he'll have a really hard time getting more than 3rd place finishes. But it obviously also hurts Trump. He'd benefit from votes staying split up longer because like you said, noone will swap over to him after any given candidate decides to drop out... maybe if Cruz drops out they might change ship to Trump based on anti-establishment but I don't see that happening soon. | ||
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oBlade
United States6498 Posts
On February 21 2016 11:57 JW_DTLA wrote: I love the argument that Obama is to blame for Trump's bigotry and deceptions. Who needs personal responsibility right? Republican primary voters can't even be held responsible for their own votes. On the contrary, bad politicians and poor candidates are responsible for driving voters elsewhere. The people can vote for whoever they please. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
PICK A CARD, ANY CARD Hillary Clinton won one delegate in a tie precinct in Pahrump because her precinct captain won a card draw against Bernie Sanders’s. The 30 voters in Precinct 10 at Morse Elementary School split even, 15 to 15. Per state Democratic Party rules, the precinct chairwoman, Peggy Rhoades, produced the sealed deck of cards she was provided to break the tie and award the fifth available delegate to the candidate with the high card. Ms. Rhoades, a member of the Nye County Democratic Party’s central committee, removed the jokers from the deck. Representatives from the Clinton and Sanders campaign asked her to shuffle the cards three times, which she did, before spreading the 52 cards out across a table. Mrs. Clinton’s representative went first: She pulled the ace. Mr. Sanders’s precinct captain couldn’t top that with his six of hearts. N THE CARDS: You may have seen an earlier card draw used to break a tie, reported by Reid Epstein in Pahrump. Over in Carson City, Chris Lawhead, a precinct captain for Bernie Sanders, tweeted video of a card draw used to break a tie in his precinct. Hillary Clinton won this one too, her side pulling a nine of clubs, beating the 7 of diamonds pulled by the Sanders side.[...] hehe This never stops to amuse me | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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JW_DTLA
242 Posts
On February 21 2016 12:01 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Everyone agrees that race relations are worse than before Obomba.The man and the democratic party as a whole have increasingly resorted to identity politics.Plenty of people are not happy with this.The USA is heading in the wrong direction under the current democrat administration.Thats not even talking about the 10 trillion in debt added by the man.Almost a bad a president as Bush Jr. You know every Republican Primary candidate is running on the Bush2 policy platform right? Invade Iraq with ground troops. Cut capital gains taxes. Roll back healthcare reform. And stuff the court with more SCALIAs. All that stuff has been tried. It resulted in the worst presidential administration since the civil war. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4452 Posts
On February 21 2016 12:14 JW_DTLA wrote: You know every Republican Primary candidate is running on the Bush2 policy platform right? Invade Iraq with ground troops. Cut capital gains taxes. Roll back healthcare reform. And stuff the court with more SCALIAs. All that stuff has been tried. It resulted in the worst presidential administration since the civil war. So when Trump says he wants to work with Putin in Syria thats a Bush policy? Hah! Obama bombed Libya without congressional approval, he's a war criminal as well.You knew this though right? Very little difference between establishment candidates on either side of the fence. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24354 Posts
On February 21 2016 12:12 cLutZ wrote: Cruz will read the landscape over the next few outings. If he gets 3rd consistently he will leave prior to the late March huge delegate States like California and Rubio is second choice for nearly 80% of his voters. Trump loses H2H against everyone left but Carson by 15+ points, so his hope lies in the field being fractured and Cruz/Rubio supporters not losing faith. Maybe you got something more recent but that's not how it was in January. Considering how the race has shook out I imagine that looks more like 50-50 between Rubio and Cruz ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mqmyxiA.jpg) Source Trump does do poorly in head to heads though but everyone always reminds us, national polls don't matter yet. | ||
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