EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2366
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10989 Posts
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Furikawari
France2522 Posts
On October 02 2015 17:43 acker wrote: Apparently the shooter had enough time to question a room full of people about their religious affiliations. Likewise, it took the police eight minutes to arrive and stop the murders. I don't think drawing quickly was the issue here. The issue appears to be that the university made it illegal to legally have a gun in the first place. Ok now I really have to question if this is a troll or if there are really people thinking like this in the USA. Basically what is stated here is "we ahve a problem because we have some X, to solve the problem just ADD MORE X". Seriously. Something is really fucked up in this country. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46691 Posts
On October 02 2015 17:17 acker wrote: This is quite true, if you believe America is most similar to Europe and Asia, completely discount defensive gun use, and fail to mention historical trends before gun restriction in Europe and Asia. I, for one, would love to know why homicide rates were higher in the UK the decade after the gun ban in the 1990s, rather than lower (and why they declined afterwards). On the other hand, if you believe that America is most similar to America, you have some explaining to do as to why Mexico, Brazil, and Argentina aren't paradises like the relatively gun-liberal Canada. Or why 50,000-2.5 million defensive gun uses per year* shouldn't count. *The range is huge because nobody has good statistics on defensive gun use. I think the biggest issue is that America simply isn't comparable to any other country (regardless of proximity and size) because we're a consistent outlier when it comes to gun quantity, gun violence, and other disappointing statistics: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lqQT7ug.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UANZQ4l.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KhtdEMb.jpg) ~ http://www.vox.com/2015/8/24/9183525/gun-violence-statistics (More relevant graphs- and analyses, there too.) | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 02 2015 17:43 acker wrote: Apparently the shooter had enough time to question a room full of people about their religious affiliations. Likewise, it took the police eight minutes to arrive and stop the murders. I don't think drawing quickly was the issue here. The issue appears to be that the university made it illegal to legally have a gun in the first place. So the only solution to the problem is to force people to carry fire arms to feel safe. Not control fire arms like every other free nation on the planet with a lower gun violence rate. Not enforce laws and fund agencies defunded by pro gun politicians. More guns and make sure people have them. Then the people making the guns can get rich off selling guns to protect us from the illegal guns. Everyone loses but them. America! | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
On October 02 2015 17:17 acker wrote: This is quite true, if you believe America is most similar to Europe and Asia, completely discount defensive gun use, and fail to mention historical trends before gun restriction in Europe and Asia. I, for one, would love to know why homicide rates were higher in the UK the decade after the gun ban in the 1990s, rather than lower (and why they declined afterwards). On the other hand, if you believe that America is most similar to America, you have some explaining to do as to why Mexico, Brazil, and Argentina aren't paradises like the relatively gun-liberal Canada. Or why 50,000-2.5 million defensive gun uses per year* shouldn't count. *The range is huge because nobody has good statistics on defensive gun use. Don't ever quote my country in your stupid defence of gun control laws. Handguns and semi-automatics are not legal here, yes we have a lot of guns but that's because we are a country where lots of people hunt (animals, for the record, not people). We have lots of shotguns and long-barrel rifles (my father owns three guns, for example). We don't allow guns that are particularly useful for mass shootings and killing people. Jesus Christ, you're like those republicans who consistently lie about Canadians hating our healthcare. We love our single payer healthcare, and we love our relatively strict gun control laws that prevent handguns and semis from being sold. Don't fucking talk about my country again. Edit: apparently we don't even do that well in gun-related homicides either, according to the graph above. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22703 Posts
On October 02 2015 21:22 BallinWitStalin wrote: Edit: apparently we don't even do that well in gun-related homicides either, according to the graph above. Blame your proximity to America. Its probably contagious. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
And does it work for other crimes. The UK has a knife crime as a serious issue(due to lack of guns). So clearly if they gave everyone more knives, crime would go down, right? Or swords? Or maybe guns to stop the knives? But if the knife criminal gets lucky, then they have a gun. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
The problem doesn't lie in gun controls, bans or whatever. I'm sorry if someone feels offended, but it's the american mentality that makes a sane solution for your constant problem with guns literally impossible. As long as you have "people" in the country (especially politicians) who think that this problem can be solved by throwing more guns at the problem (btw, pretty much the most retarded thing ever to be said by a "sane" person), you can't do more than praying that it's not the school of your kid where shit hits the fan. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10989 Posts
On October 02 2015 21:55 m4ini wrote: Interesting graph though, i wouldn't have thought that switzerland (commonly cited by gun-nuts as shining example) is actually that bad. Its mainly suicides, actual shootings are pretty rare. | ||
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Simberto
Germany12080 Posts
On October 02 2015 21:55 m4ini wrote: Interesting graph though, i wouldn't have thought that switzerland (commonly cited by gun-nuts as shining example) is actually that bad. The problem doesn't lie in gun controls, bans or whatever. I'm sorry if someone feels offended, but it's the american mentality that makes a sane solution for your constant problem with guns literally impossible. As long as you have "people" in the country (especially politicians) who think that this problem can be solved by throwing more guns at the problem (btw, pretty much the most retarded thing ever to be said by a "sane" person), you can't do more than praying that it's not the school of your kid where shit hits the fan. I wouldn't say that Switzerland looks particularly bad at that graph. They are distinctly below the axis, meaning they have less than expected gun crimes for the amount of guns they have. However, as expected, if there are more guns, gun crime increases. The main question should be how many "new" murders occur ONLY due to guns being available, though. And that one is a bit harder to answer. Also, if i recall correctly, there was a swiss poster in here telling americans that guns laws in switzerland don't quite work as they think they do. I am a bit fuzzy on the details though, but i think it was something along the lines of people having guns but no ammunition at home. Don't quote me on that. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Simberto
Germany12080 Posts
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
On October 02 2015 22:30 ticklishmusic wrote: "Too many guns" is a lousy argument. Let's take that to the logical conclusion: there were X number of guns yesterday. There are X+Y guns today. There will be X+Y+Z guns tomorrow. When and how does that end? Start with vastly increased firearm exchange programs, give folks tax incentives for "hunting" firearm purchases while adding tax to "non-hunting" firearm sales, and fund a comprehensive national background check and gun registry system via these increased taxes. Give states incentives to keep better track of their own citizens firearms, give folks health insurance incentives pointed towards unarmed households, etc. It's not that difficult to come up with this stuff. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 02 2015 22:44 farvacola wrote: Start with vastly increased firearm exchange programs, give folks tax incentives for "hunting" firearm purchases while adding tax to "non-hunting" firearm sales, and fund a comprehensive national background check and gun registry system via these increased taxes. Give states incentives to keep better track of their own citizens firearms, give folks health insurance incentives pointed towards unarmed households, etc. It's not that difficult to come up with this stuff. Provide a better data base for people who suffer from mental illness and have been convicted of violent crimes or are known to be mentally unstable. Most of the people with mental illness that purchase guns before a crime are first time buyers. Hell, I would settle for a law that put restrictions on first time buyers. Make it easier for long term gun owners, harder for people who have never owned on. Its easy if people just get away from the idea that people are going to take their guns and think about the problems. But groups like the NRA don't want that, because they care about gun sales, not gun owner rights. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On October 02 2015 22:44 farvacola wrote: Start with vastly increased firearm exchange programs, give folks tax incentives for "hunting" firearm purchases while adding tax to "non-hunting" firearm sales, and fund a comprehensive national background check and gun registry system via these increased taxes. Give states incentives to keep better track of their own citizens firearms, give folks health insurance incentives pointed towards unarmed households, etc. It's not that difficult to come up with this stuff. I'm completely agreeing with you. I'm just saying that "there's too many guns we can't regulate" is a stupid argument because it amounts to tacit surrender that we are somehow unable to address the situation and it'll just get worse and worse. I also think that this and the other argument I've heard (more guns means more good guys with guns or however you want to paraphrase) are kind of contrary, since this one implies that more guns is a bad thing. EDIT: In addition to background checks, I think guns you purchase should be linked to your social security number (or something like that). Places that sell guns should also be potentially liable if a gun they sold is used to commit a crime. I'm all for carrots, but we need some sticks to make gun control work. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46691 Posts
On October 02 2015 22:30 ticklishmusic wrote: "Too many guns" is a lousy argument. Let's take that to the logical conclusion: there were X number of guns yesterday. There are X+Y guns today. There will be X+Y+Z guns tomorrow. When and how does that end? Isn't that an issue for "not enough guns"? When does it end? Should everyone have a gun? Two guns? Et cetera. If you have too many guns, then the logical conclusion should be: There are X guns today. There will be X-Y guns tomorrow. There will be X-Y-Z guns in two days from now. When does it end? Are you hoping to get down to 0? What would be a "reasonable" quantity of guns that advocates of gun control would hope for? And I'd argue that there are other variables at stake there- especially what kinds of guns people are owning and using at any given time. Also, how extensive background checks are. | ||
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 02 2015 23:46 Buckyman wrote: That graph inappropriately uses a biased trend line, which has the side effect of making high gun ownership countries look worse. And its also fact that the countries with higher gun ownership have problems gun violence. So they do look worse based on the raw numbers, the US being the highest. | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On October 02 2015 23:51 Plansix wrote: And its also fact that the countries with higher gun ownership have problems gun violence. So they do look worse based on the raw numbers, the US being the highest. Not true, Switzerland has super high gun ownership and they're fine. I mean they don't let people have ammo but hey it's LITERALLY the same as America. | ||
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