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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11507 Posts
October 01 2015 18:39 GMT
#47261
There is also the possibility that the person demanding service is an asshole, drunk, or any other thing that will drive away other customers and annoy the owner of the shop.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42652 Posts
October 01 2015 18:42 GMT
#47262
Discrimination is pretty hard to prove anyway. Unless you're coupling the rejection with racial insults or there are some dumb email records proving you're violating a protected field with employment discrimination you'll get away with it. The idea that a drunk black guy crying "I'll sue you for racialism" as he gets ejected actually wins isn't based on anything.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 01 2015 18:48 GMT
#47263
On October 02 2015 03:42 KwarK wrote:
Discrimination is pretty hard to prove anyway. Unless you're coupling the rejection with racial insults or there are some dumb email records proving you're violating a protected field with employment discrimination you'll get away with it. The idea that a drunk black guy crying "I'll sue you for racialism" as he gets ejected actually wins isn't based on anything.

Its easy when the cake baker says "I don't make cake for gay couples". That case wins itself. But the rest of the time it is VERY hard to prove. Any form of discrimination need a smoking gun email, comment or very predictable pattern of discrimination to be proven in court. It's very hard.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
October 01 2015 19:38 GMT
#47264
BREAKING: Oregon community college shooting suspect 'is down': Oregonian newspaper

Several dead after shooting at Oregon college
As many as 15 people were reported killed and 20 were reported wounded at a shooting at a community college in Roseburg, Oregon.

www.reuters.com

<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 01 2015 19:41 GMT
#47265
Again:

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

Sadly, this never stops being relevant.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
October 01 2015 19:57 GMT
#47266
On October 02 2015 04:38 Toadesstern wrote:
Show nested quote +
BREAKING: Oregon community college shooting suspect 'is down': Oregonian newspaper

Several dead after shooting at Oregon college
As many as 15 people were reported killed and 20 were reported wounded at a shooting at a community college in Roseburg, Oregon.

www.reuters.com



fucking damnit I would love to stop seeing these kinds of things
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42652 Posts
October 01 2015 19:59 GMT
#47267
300,000,000 people and you're bound to get some cunts. Couple that with the guarantee of top post on reddit and 24 hour news coverage for a few days and here we are.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
October 01 2015 20:00 GMT
#47268
On October 02 2015 04:41 Plansix wrote:
Again:

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

Sadly, this never stops being relevant.


Such a wonderful example of satire, but dammit I wish it would stop popping up.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
ZasZ.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2911 Posts
October 01 2015 20:09 GMT
#47269
On October 02 2015 02:58 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2015 02:52 ZasZ. wrote:
On October 02 2015 02:30 Nyxisto wrote:
Not only that, but I really have trouble understanding how a right do discrimination is supposed to be a right at all, if you run an official business you shouldn't be allowed to discriminate. Employers can't turn down job applications based on ethnicity, sexual orientation and so on either, can they?

On October 02 2015 01:55 Plansix wrote:
Can we just have the GOP debate where Trump argues with previous statements he made?


That has already happened:
+ Show Spoiler +




It's not a right to discriminate, although refusal of service can be used to discriminate. My issue with making it illegal to refuse service to anyone you like is when some asshole who you kick out of your business claims it is because of discrimination. Maybe a rare case, but I don't like the idea of dick customers having all the leverage when they can go elsewhere but the business owner cannot. I see that as being a bigger potential problem than the occasional gay couple having to go to a different baker/photographer and then that baker/photographer being lambasted by society at large.

This isn't any different that the normal problem retailers face. They already fear social influential people who don't like their service and decide to badmouth them on facebook or some shit. The gay couple is no more a threat than the women who brings her shitty kids to the cake and gets mad when the owner tell them not to touch the cakes. Both can go ham on social media to put them out of business.


You misunderstand me, I'm saying that if society wants to correct the behavior, that's fine. Aren't we talking about making refusal of service illegal? Because "discrimination" is such a loose term that making the law apply only to those religious nuts that hate the gays seems like a pipe dream. I'm saying I'm more comfortable with businesses being able to refuse service to anyone they like, for any reason, and having society work out who the assholes are. I realize that's not ideal, but so is allowing any asshole who gets kicked out of a place to claim discrimination and get the business owners fined or thrown in jail.

And Nyxisto, there are plenty of reasons why people can refuse service, other than discrimination. Throwing someone out of a bar for being too drunk is refusing service. Kicking a homeless guy out of your store for loitering can be considered refusing service. Kicking a person being an asshole out of your business is refusing service. No shoes, no shirt, no service is a sign seen all over the place in business windows.

Unfortunately, it's complicated. If people had made the same argument I am making now about black customers, there probably would have been entire towns in the deep south that refused to serve black people, with little alternative to them, and no societal impulses to correct their behavior. But I also think that was a different situation because as far as I know we do not have concentrated gay communities that are isolated within large swaths of homophobic businesses.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-01 20:12:23
October 01 2015 20:09 GMT
#47270
On October 02 2015 04:59 KwarK wrote:
300,000,000 people and you're bound to get some cunts. Couple that with the guarantee of top post on reddit and 24 hour news coverage for a few days and here we are.


The US has more school shootings than any other nation on the planet combined, and those nations have people, too. There's really no need for fatalism.

http://www.mibazaar.com/schoolshootings/

And that map doesn't even cover the last three years. The discrepancy is so high that you can't seriously blame it on "a few people being cunts".
Mercy13
Profile Joined January 2011
United States718 Posts
October 01 2015 20:18 GMT
#47271
On October 02 2015 05:09 ZasZ. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2015 02:58 Plansix wrote:
On October 02 2015 02:52 ZasZ. wrote:
On October 02 2015 02:30 Nyxisto wrote:
Not only that, but I really have trouble understanding how a right do discrimination is supposed to be a right at all, if you run an official business you shouldn't be allowed to discriminate. Employers can't turn down job applications based on ethnicity, sexual orientation and so on either, can they?

On October 02 2015 01:55 Plansix wrote:
Can we just have the GOP debate where Trump argues with previous statements he made?


That has already happened:
+ Show Spoiler +

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKqW4gw4wsg#t=15s


It's not a right to discriminate, although refusal of service can be used to discriminate. My issue with making it illegal to refuse service to anyone you like is when some asshole who you kick out of your business claims it is because of discrimination. Maybe a rare case, but I don't like the idea of dick customers having all the leverage when they can go elsewhere but the business owner cannot. I see that as being a bigger potential problem than the occasional gay couple having to go to a different baker/photographer and then that baker/photographer being lambasted by society at large.

This isn't any different that the normal problem retailers face. They already fear social influential people who don't like their service and decide to badmouth them on facebook or some shit. The gay couple is no more a threat than the women who brings her shitty kids to the cake and gets mad when the owner tell them not to touch the cakes. Both can go ham on social media to put them out of business.


You misunderstand me, I'm saying that if society wants to correct the behavior, that's fine. Aren't we talking about making refusal of service illegal? Because "discrimination" is such a loose term that making the law apply only to those religious nuts that hate the gays seems like a pipe dream. I'm saying I'm more comfortable with businesses being able to refuse service to anyone they like, for any reason, and having society work out who the assholes are. I realize that's not ideal, but so is allowing any asshole who gets kicked out of a place to claim discrimination and get the business owners fined or thrown in jail.

And Nyxisto, there are plenty of reasons why people can refuse service, other than discrimination. Throwing someone out of a bar for being too drunk is refusing service. Kicking a homeless guy out of your store for loitering can be considered refusing service. Kicking a person being an asshole out of your business is refusing service. No shoes, no shirt, no service is a sign seen all over the place in business windows.

Unfortunately, it's complicated. If people had made the same argument I am making now about black customers, there probably would have been entire towns in the deep south that refused to serve black people, with little alternative to them, and no societal impulses to correct their behavior. But I also think that was a different situation because as far as I know we do not have concentrated gay communities that are isolated within large swaths of homophobic businesses.


I'm sure there are still a lot of small towns with businesses that would love to refuse service to black people, let alone gay people, if they could get away with it. You don't need a concentrated black/gay community for this to be a problem for the members of those groups who do live there.

And even in big towns there are still large swaths of transphobic businesses.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 01 2015 20:21 GMT
#47272
On October 02 2015 05:09 ZasZ. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2015 02:58 Plansix wrote:
On October 02 2015 02:52 ZasZ. wrote:
On October 02 2015 02:30 Nyxisto wrote:
Not only that, but I really have trouble understanding how a right do discrimination is supposed to be a right at all, if you run an official business you shouldn't be allowed to discriminate. Employers can't turn down job applications based on ethnicity, sexual orientation and so on either, can they?

On October 02 2015 01:55 Plansix wrote:
Can we just have the GOP debate where Trump argues with previous statements he made?


That has already happened:
+ Show Spoiler +

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKqW4gw4wsg#t=15s


It's not a right to discriminate, although refusal of service can be used to discriminate. My issue with making it illegal to refuse service to anyone you like is when some asshole who you kick out of your business claims it is because of discrimination. Maybe a rare case, but I don't like the idea of dick customers having all the leverage when they can go elsewhere but the business owner cannot. I see that as being a bigger potential problem than the occasional gay couple having to go to a different baker/photographer and then that baker/photographer being lambasted by society at large.

This isn't any different that the normal problem retailers face. They already fear social influential people who don't like their service and decide to badmouth them on facebook or some shit. The gay couple is no more a threat than the women who brings her shitty kids to the cake and gets mad when the owner tell them not to touch the cakes. Both can go ham on social media to put them out of business.


You misunderstand me, I'm saying that if society wants to correct the behavior, that's fine. Aren't we talking about making refusal of service illegal? Because "discrimination" is such a loose term that making the law apply only to those religious nuts that hate the gays seems like a pipe dream. I'm saying I'm more comfortable with businesses being able to refuse service to anyone they like, for any reason, and having society work out who the assholes are. I realize that's not ideal, but so is allowing any asshole who gets kicked out of a place to claim discrimination and get the business owners fined or thrown in jail.

Legal the term is very limited. Assholes are not a protected group. Legally they wouldn't be able to get them fined or a court order forcing the business to serve them. And if the business is serving other member of the ass-hole's protected group, they have a defense.

And before you say that the threat of frivolously lawsuits is a problem, those are always a threat. Removing the requirement to serve protected groups would not protect the business from the legal cost of a frivolously lawsuit.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
October 01 2015 20:43 GMT
#47273
yet more evidence that racism is pretty real, like we all know.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/public-school-funding-and-the-role-of-race/408085/
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-01 20:48:45
October 01 2015 20:47 GMT
#47274


Just wanted to throw this here, it speaks to the quality of the medias in the US (and Canada's no better). She just sticks to the script... (Just watch, it gets good around 1:25-1:35). I don't know that HLN is representative of anything, IDK how bit that network even is, but it's funny nonetheless.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
October 01 2015 23:12 GMT
#47275


I think he really spoke well in this press conference.
Yargh
killa_robot
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada1884 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-01 23:23:37
October 01 2015 23:20 GMT
#47276
On October 02 2015 05:43 oneofthem wrote:
yet more evidence that racism is pretty real, like we all know.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/public-school-funding-and-the-role-of-race/408085/


For a report dealing with poverty it seems rather odd they wouldn't release anything to do with crime or academic achievement in those areas.

Then again its stats. Skewing things to further their own agenda is how most research works.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 01 2015 23:22 GMT
#47277
The comparison to how much we spend on counter terrorism and how little we do to even collect information on illegal gun purchases is a good one. The simple fact is that the gun lobby is more interested in selling guns to anyone, because that is how they make money.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-01 23:53:50
October 01 2015 23:37 GMT
#47278
Maybe John Boehner will decide "fuck it, I'm gonna shove through gun laws because I'm retiring". Now that would be a hell of a legacy for him.

A man can dream.

This was posted to 4chan yesterday, holy crap.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-01 23:54:59
October 01 2015 23:44 GMT
#47279
They don't even need new laws. Just fund the agencies that are supposed to deal with illegally sold weapons and allow them to collect data.

Edit: I saw that. I love how the edgelords of 4chan are cheering him on. That a garbage site and community.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Cowboy64
Profile Joined April 2015
115 Posts
October 02 2015 00:22 GMT
#47280
How long before the media spends three weeks blasting his face and his name and his manifesto (why do they always have a manifesto?) everywhere and then turns around and asks what causes these types of things?

Senseless tragedy, I can't even imagine the pain those families must be going through. RIP
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