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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2255

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42653 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-31 17:35:20
August 31 2015 17:31 GMT
#45081
France, like the UK, Germany, China and Russia have their own illegal spying operations. That's what made his position so dangerous. As an opponent of the security state there was no nation anywhere who wanted anything to do with him because all states love power. He's not Roman Polanski.

He claims that after Hong Kong he had no documents accessible to him at all. That is was vital for his security, and that of his loved ones, that after Hong Kong he had nothing of any value that could be extracted from him by coercion, torture or hostage taking. You have to ask yourself which nation is big enough to not be bribed the US, strong enough that the US won't simply steamroll them and stupid enough that they'll accept someone who offers no value beyond pissing off the US. If not Russia, where?

Western Europe would sell him out because they're all fully on team NSA. They've all got their own illegal and intrusive networks going on and they partner with the NSA. Eastern Europe would sell him for the money. China gives no fucks about limiting government power or whistleblowers but are on great terms with the US. Honestly it kind of comes down to Russia or North Korea.

You don't need selling information to explain why he went to Russia, the lack of any alternative is sufficient, especially when accompanied by significant amounts of evidence that he had no information to sell after Hong Kong. They held him in the airport because it took a few days to decide what to do with him and to satisfy themselves that he really did have no information to sell.

Incidentally the law under which he'd be prosecuted in the US doesn't care about whether the information disclosed damaged the US, or whether it was evidence of unconstitutional practices, or whether it was sold, or indeed anything else that you'd think would differentiate between whistleblowing and spying. It comes down to "do foreign governments know something now that they didn't before" which is a slam dunk conviction so broad you could hit anyone with it. Snowden cannot face the consequences in the US because the system is rigged and the law is antiquated (100 years old at this point).
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-31 17:33:59
August 31 2015 17:32 GMT
#45082
What he said there in that interview sounds pretty reasonable;
note: "But I've sort of tongue-in-cheek said that if I had the choice, I'd put Clapper and Snowden in the same jail cell for about the same period of time"

He also doesn't say in there that he would put snowden in jail necessarily, but that there has to be some punishment for what he did.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17982 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-31 17:38:17
August 31 2015 17:35 GMT
#45083
On September 01 2015 02:16 Yoav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2015 00:48 KwarK wrote:
On September 01 2015 00:36 Plansix wrote:
It is completely possible that Snowden made the US aware of the NSA while also committing crimes that warrant him going to prison for a period of time. I don't think he should go to jail for life, but I also don't think he is completely exonerated stealing a lot of state secrets and then using them to gain safe harbor with the Russia.

Weirdly enough, issues like this one are complex and don't boil down to simple solutions.

He didn't use the secrets to buy entry to Russia. Russia just let him in because it let them claim that they care about justice and it makes the United States look dumb. Snowden was far too much of a patriot to risk anything he took falling into Russian hands, it was all handed to journalists before he left Hong Kong.

The only reason he's in Russia is because Russia was one of the few nations willing to stand up to the United States in the name of justice, reason and personal liberty. Those were in name only, Russia doesn't really give a shit about any of them, but still, no other fucker was willing to do it.


Show nested quote +
On September 01 2015 01:12 KwarK wrote:
...Snowden's actions, motivations and priorities are as well documented as could be by a large number of impartial third parties. The man did everything he did out of patriotism.


Except that all of this completely falls apart under scrutiny. Part of the story is that he withheld information that could be damaging to the US. Did he use a part of that to buy entry into China/Russia?

Remember, Roman Polanski lived as a free man in France for many years. The French are willing to show the US the bird to the extent that they shelter child rapists. Snowden would have been welcomed as a hero there, with a zero percent chance of extradition. And if he'd done that, no-one would be saying he probably sold secrets to Russia or China. This all of course assumes he wouldn't just try to get senatorial protection; whistleblowers who hand secrets over to sympathetic senators have lots of protection. One imagines Rand Paul would have been sympathetic. I'd have done it while hanging out in France, just in case, but there's a good chance it could have worked.

And it sure looks like there was a bartering stage. Russia actually didn't welcome him with open arms. China turned him away, and Russia held him at the airport for a while. And many of us who are very happy he did what he did would be treating him like a great American hero right now if it didn't look a lot like he turned over secrets to hostile dictators.

I have no doubts that he leaked out of patriotism. But I also think that he seems to have done things since then out of regard for his own safety that may have harmed his country. Mind you, I think he should be tried on that, and if no evidence can be found, released, rather than bullshit attacks on the actual leak. But he should not be granted clemency for selling secrets to our enemies if he in fact has.


That France allowed Roman Polanski to stay says absolutely nothing about whether or not they would extradite Edward Snowden. For starters, he's a French citizen, so extradition gets more tricky (look at the US: barring a few exceptional treaties, they outright refuse to extradite their citizens for any crimes committed abroad; this is the main reason the US has STILL not ratified the International Court of Law).

The crime is also completely different, and insofar as I know, Snowden doesn't count Mitterand as one of his best buddies, something that is sure to have benefited Polanski.

EDIT: Snowden himself noted various times that he didn't trust Western European countries not to extradite him. I remember that some politicians in the Dutch parliament almost threw a fit, because they wanted to interview him in person, but the government couldn't offer him immunity. And that is The Netherlands, a more liberal country than France.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 31 2015 17:38 GMT
#45084
In California, more prisoners have died of natural causes on death row than have perished in the death chamber. More than 900 killers have been sentenced to death since 1978, but only 13 have been executed.

The question a federal appeals court will consider on Monday is whether years of unpredictable delays from conviction to execution resulted in an arbitrary and unfair system that violates the constitution’s eighth amendment, which bars cruel and unusual punishment.

The hearing at the ninth US circuit court of appeals in Pasadena comes as support for the death penalty wanes in parts of the country. The Connecticut supreme court recently ruled that it served no legitimate purpose, and Nebraska eliminated it this year.

US district judge Cormac Carney ruled in the case of a Los Angeles rapist and murderer that the state’s death penalty was dysfunctional and offered an empty promise seldom leading to executions while jamming up death row.

“Inordinate and unpredictable delay has resulted in a death penalty system in which very few of the hundreds of individuals sentenced to death have been, or even will be, executed,” wrote Carney, a President George W Bush appointee.

While death penalty opponents cheered the ruling, attorney general Kamala Harris appealed.

Prosecutors argued in court papers that the state cannot be faulted for having a procedure that protects the interest of everyone with a stake in a case. Even if some cases move faster than others, they said, it does not create a dysfunctional system resulting in arbitrary executions.

“The court mistook its policy critique as a proper basis for legal judgment,” supervising deputy attorney general James Bilderback II wrote.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42653 Posts
August 31 2015 17:39 GMT
#45085
On September 01 2015 02:32 zlefin wrote:
What he said there in that interview sounds pretty reasonable;
note: "But I've sort of tongue-in-cheek said that if I had the choice, I'd put Clapper and Snowden in the same jail cell for about the same period of time"

He also doesn't say in there that he would put snowden in jail necessarily, but that there has to be some punishment for what he did.

A constitutional system cannot work unless the people who form it stand up against the government when the government acts unconstitutionally. Snowden is unequivocally an American hero who has made incredible personal sacrifices to try and restore constitutional government and personal liberty to the American people. There could not be enough statues erected and it's extremely unfortunate that the institutional moral corruption throughout the system meant that it fell to an individual to stand up and oppose unconstitutional behavior after the internal checks and balances failed.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17982 Posts
August 31 2015 17:40 GMT
#45086
On September 01 2015 02:31 KwarK wrote:
France, like the UK, Germany, China and Russia have their own illegal spying operations. That's what made his position so dangerous. As an opponent of the security state there was no nation anywhere who wanted anything to do with him because all states love power. He's not Roman Polanski.

He claims that after Hong Kong he had no documents accessible to him at all. That is was vital for his security, and that of his loved ones, that after Hong Kong he had nothing of any value that could be extracted from him by coercion, torture or hostage taking. You have to ask yourself which nation is big enough to not be bribed the US, strong enough that the US won't simply steamroll them and stupid enough that they'll accept someone who offers no value beyond pissing off the US. If not Russia, where?

Western Europe would sell him out because they're all fully on team NSA. They've all got their own illegal and intrusive networks going on and they partner with the NSA. Eastern Europe would sell him for the money. China gives no fucks about limiting government power or whistleblowers but are on great terms with the US. Honestly it kind of comes down to Russia or North Korea.

You don't need selling information to explain why he went to Russia, the lack of any alternative is sufficient, especially when accompanied by significant amounts of evidence that he had no information to sell after Hong Kong. They held him in the airport because it took a few days to decide what to do with him and to satisfy themselves that he really did have no information to sell.

Incidentally the law under which he'd be prosecuted in the US doesn't care about whether the information disclosed damaged the US, or whether it was evidence of unconstitutional practices, or whether it was sold, or indeed anything else that you'd think would differentiate between whistleblowing and spying. It comes down to "do foreign governments know something now that they didn't before" which is a slam dunk conviction so broad you could hit anyone with it. Snowden cannot face the consequences in the US because the system is rigged and the law is antiquated (100 years old at this point).

Most of South America would have worked, but as Assange has shown as well: it is damned hard to GET to South America.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
August 31 2015 17:42 GMT
#45087
On September 01 2015 02:32 zlefin wrote:
What he said there in that interview sounds pretty reasonable;
note: "But I've sort of tongue-in-cheek said that if I had the choice, I'd put Clapper and Snowden in the same jail cell for about the same period of time"

He also doesn't say in there that he would put snowden in jail necessarily, but that there has to be some punishment for what he did.

What the first part of that quote mean though? "I've sort of tongue-in-cheek said...". English is my second language and I find that very confusing.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-31 17:51:43
August 31 2015 17:46 GMT
#45088
On September 01 2015 02:42 Djzapz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2015 02:32 zlefin wrote:
What he said there in that interview sounds pretty reasonable;
note: "But I've sort of tongue-in-cheek said that if I had the choice, I'd put Clapper and Snowden in the same jail cell for about the same period of time"

He also doesn't say in there that he would put snowden in jail necessarily, but that there has to be some punishment for what he did.

What the first part of that quote mean though? "I've sort of tongue-in-cheek said...". English is my second language and I find that very confusing.


from the Google:

tongue-in-cheek
adjective & adverb
adjective: tongue-in-cheek; adverb: tongue-in-cheek
with ironic or flippant intent.
"her delightful tongue-in-cheek humor"


So he's saying it a bit jokingly. His point is that if Snowden is to be brought back and thrown in jail, then Clapper should be in that jail cell with him.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17982 Posts
August 31 2015 17:49 GMT
#45089
On September 01 2015 02:18 Djzapz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2015 02:12 Acrofales wrote:
On September 01 2015 02:02 Djzapz wrote:
On September 01 2015 01:20 zlefin wrote:
djpazj -> do you have a link to the source for that being Paul's position? because otherwise, since you said you read it on the dumb parts of the internet, I'd just assume its idiots claiming stupid things. Also the source would give more info on why Paul is saying that.

http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/30/9228879/rand-paul-nsa-utah

The only mention of Snowden in that entire article is as the whistleblower on the mass data collection by the NSA.

It doesn't say anywhere that Rand Paul would want to throw Snowden in jail.

I linked the wrong article x_x
http://reason.com/reasontv/2015/06/04/rand-paul-on-edward-snowden

That's some master quality politician speak there, lol.

He never commits to saying Snowden committed a jail-worthy crime. He seems to imply that he disagrees with the manner of Snowden's reveal, but fully agrees with the sentiment, and agrees that it needed to be revealed. He wants to rectify the law in order to allow future-Snowdens to do this within a whistleblower construction. It all sounds very sensible to me.

Imho, amnesty should be granted to Snowden because the whistleblower laws don't apply to his situation, and there WAS no legal way that allowed him to reveal that information, so his only option was to do so through the media. And he did so in a rather controlled and responsible manner (as opposed to just dumping all his info on wikileaks). However, I understand it would be hard for a US politician to come out and say that while still expecting to get elected.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
August 31 2015 18:22 GMT
#45090
Fair enough.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
August 31 2015 19:43 GMT
#45091
Remember, Roman Polanski lived as a free man in France for many years. The French are willing to show the US the bird to the extent that they shelter child rapists. Snowden would have been welcomed as a hero there, with a zero percent chance of extradition. And if he'd done that, no-one would be saying he probably sold secrets to Russia or China. This all of course assumes he wouldn't just try to get senatorial protection; whistleblowers who hand secrets over to sympathetic senators have lots of protection. One imagines Rand Paul would have been sympathetic. I'd have done it while hanging out in France, just in case, but there's a good chance it could have worked.


Except the fact that france refuted his plea for asylum. He did ask. He also asked germany, austria, switzerland, poland, spain, netherlands, norway, italy, ireland and many other countries, ALL of which refused. Officially. Some with excuses, some straight up.

My opinion: he should do symbolic jail time. Like 6 months. As much as i think he did the right thing, he also broke the law. Nobody, for whatever reason, should be allowed to break the law and go unpunished (at least in major things).
On track to MA1950A.
whatisthisasheep
Profile Joined April 2015
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-31 21:56:26
August 31 2015 21:55 GMT
#45092
Obama announced that he will star in the reality tv series "Running Wild" with Bear Grylls
https://www.yahoo.com/politics/president-obama-to-appear-on-running-wild-with-128033923326.html
President Obama is adding a special item to his Alaskan itinerary.

He is set to appear an upcoming episode of Running Wild With Bear Grylls, NBC announced Monday.

The President and host Bear Grylls will venture through the Alaskan wilderness for a special edition of the unscripted adventure series to air later this year.

President Obama will meet the famed survival expert while visiting the state to observe the effects of climate change on the area. President Obama departs for Anchorage on Monday, and is also set to visit the towns of Dillingham and Kotzebue, as well as tour Exit Glacier and Kenai Fjords National Park, during his three-day trip.

The president’s visit to Alaska is expected to ruffle feathers. On Sunday, the White House announced that the Obama administration will change the name of North America’s tallest mountain peak from Mount McKinley to Denali – a major symbolic gesture for the Alaskan natives. Renaming the peak Denali puts the Obama administration in the middle of an ongoing conflict between the residents of Alaska and Ohio. Although Alaskans call the peak Denali, which means “high one” in Athabascan, the peak is officially recognized by the federal government as Mount McKinley, in honor of former U.S. president and Ohio native William McKinley, who was assassinated early in his second term.

This is yet another unconventional media move for the president, who’s been choosing fewer mainstream outlets for interviews in the past year. In addition to his appearance on Running Wild With Bear Grylls, the President will also be seen on an upcoming special episode of Vice, in which he becomes the first commander-in-chief to visit a federal prison. VICE Special Report: Fixing The System, for which a trailer was released Friday, will air Sept. 27 on HBO. He sat down for comedian Marc Maron’s WTF podcast in June.

This marks the visit by a sitting U.S. president on Running Wild With Bear Grylls, which is currently in its second season. The reality series has welcomed a slew of celebrity guests including Kate Winslet, Channing Tatum, Kate Hudson and Zac Efron, among others.

Grylls will produce the special edition of Running Wild with Delbert Shoopman and Dave Pearce of Bear Grylls Ventures, and Chris Grant, Viki Cacciatore and Liz Schulze of Electus.
Please help me get in contact with the Pats organization because I'd love to personally deflate Tom's balls.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
August 31 2015 21:57 GMT
#45093
If Obama drinks his own piss I'll down a bottle of vodka.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
August 31 2015 22:07 GMT
#45094
http://www.salon.com/2015/08/31/this_incoherent_donald_trump_interview_proves_one_thing_sarah_palins_descent_into_obscurity_is_complete/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Appealing to the lowest common denominator has always been important... but if it becomes the dominant force in politics. Oh man your heading straight for third world politics..
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17982 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-31 22:43:45
August 31 2015 22:28 GMT
#45095
On September 01 2015 07:07 Rebs wrote:
http://www.salon.com/2015/08/31/this_incoherent_donald_trump_interview_proves_one_thing_sarah_palins_descent_into_obscurity_is_complete/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Appealing to the lowest common denominator has always been important... but if it becomes the dominant force in politics. Oh man your heading straight for third world politics..

I only watched the first 2 minutes, but that's pretty hilarious:

1. Sarah Palin asserts that Donald Trump's heart is with the working class. Donald Trump wouldn't know what the working class was if it came up and punched him in the face.

2. Donald Trump claims there's 93million unemployed in the US. Lololololol. Using this data, that would be a 46% unemployment rate... ahahahahahahaha. If that were true, there would be riots in the street. That is almost double Greece's unemployment rate!

EDIT: watched the entire interview. That was absolutely cringeworthy. I don't think I have seen so much masturbation outside of some soft porn. It was basically 10 minutes of:

Sarah Palin: oooooh, Mr Trump, why are you so awesome?
Donald Trump: well, thank you Sarah, I like you too. Obama sucks.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 01 2015 00:19 GMT
#45096
On September 01 2015 07:28 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2015 07:07 Rebs wrote:
http://www.salon.com/2015/08/31/this_incoherent_donald_trump_interview_proves_one_thing_sarah_palins_descent_into_obscurity_is_complete/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Appealing to the lowest common denominator has always been important... but if it becomes the dominant force in politics. Oh man your heading straight for third world politics..

I only watched the first 2 minutes, but that's pretty hilarious:

1. Sarah Palin asserts that Donald Trump's heart is with the working class. Donald Trump wouldn't know what the working class was if it came up and punched him in the face.

2. Donald Trump claims there's 93million unemployed in the US. Lololololol. Using this data, that would be a 46% unemployment rate... ahahahahahahaha. If that were true, there would be riots in the street. That is almost double Greece's unemployment rate!

EDIT: watched the entire interview. That was absolutely cringeworthy. I don't think I have seen so much masturbation outside of some soft porn. It was basically 10 minutes of:

Sarah Palin: oooooh, Mr Trump, why are you so awesome?
Donald Trump: well, thank you Sarah, I like you too. Obama sucks.
I'd have to see methodology, because some unemployment statistics intentionally do not count people that have given up looking for a job and those forced to take a part time job. The figure still seems high.

As for the working class, in my view Trump's trade protectionism shows utter disregard. He could start trade wars and hurt exporters. Product affordability/CPI will go up. In my opinion, that's the issue that will kill Trump. The benefits of (largely) free trade are too well believed (though perhaps some blue collar equates protecting union jobs to punishing foreign competition.

And you know, conservatives here have gagged over all Obama's fawning interviews ranging from the softballs (why doesn't everybody realize your policies are so great? Tell us more about those evil obstructionist Republicans and your coming glorious edicts). But, you know, the political divide is deep.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
September 01 2015 00:25 GMT
#45097
Rand Paul's handlers have progressively corroded his brand as a straight-talking purist, and he has adopted the very opposite strategy performed by Donald Trump, which has led to his melting into the generic Republican brand, rather than sticking out from it. His campaign is a good object lesson in the art of falling between two stools.

Contrary to KwarK's insinuations, Putin has made no grandstanding effort to exploit the Snowden case for personal or national propaganda. He is far too shrewd to fall into that trap. Alone of the world's leading statesmen, he seems to incarnate what Agnes Repplier once wrote about "understanding the value of an understatement."
HeatEXTEND
Profile Joined October 2012
Netherlands836 Posts
September 01 2015 00:52 GMT
#45098
On September 01 2015 02:31 KwarK wrote:
France, like the UK, Germany, China and Russia have their own illegal spying operations. That's what made his position so dangerous. As an opponent of the security state there was no nation anywhere who wanted anything to do with him because all states love power. He's not Roman Polanski.

He claims that after Hong Kong he had no documents accessible to him at all. That is was vital for his security, and that of his loved ones, that after Hong Kong he had nothing of any value that could be extracted from him by coercion, torture or hostage taking. You have to ask yourself which nation is big enough to not be bribed the US, strong enough that the US won't simply steamroll them and stupid enough that they'll accept someone who offers no value beyond pissing off the US. If not Russia, where?

Western Europe would sell him out because they're all fully on team NSA. They've all got their own illegal and intrusive networks going on and they partner with the NSA. Eastern Europe would sell him for the money. China gives no fucks about limiting government power or whistleblowers but are on great terms with the US. Honestly it kind of comes down to Russia or North Korea.

You don't need selling information to explain why he went to Russia, the lack of any alternative is sufficient, especially when accompanied by significant amounts of evidence that he had no information to sell after Hong Kong. They held him in the airport because it took a few days to decide what to do with him and to satisfy themselves that he really did have no information to sell.

Incidentally the law under which he'd be prosecuted in the US doesn't care about whether the information disclosed damaged the US, or whether it was evidence of unconstitutional practices, or whether it was sold, or indeed anything else that you'd think would differentiate between whistleblowing and spying. It comes down to "do foreign governments know something now that they didn't before" which is a slam dunk conviction so broad you could hit anyone with it. Snowden cannot face the consequences in the US because the system is rigged and the law is antiquated (100 years old at this point).


Good job asshole, now I wanna play Alpha protocol again ;__
knuckle
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-01 04:43:05
September 01 2015 04:22 GMT
#45099
roflmao. 11% more of Republicans think Ted Cruz was born in the US than believe Obama was.

Not that it surprises those not deluding themselves, but the overwhelming majority of Republican voters still think Obama is (or may be) a foreign-born Muslim.

Trump is devouring the competition and Carson is the back-up

How that's not terribly embarrassing, I don't know. That "deep bench" is looking all bench and no deep.

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"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4748 Posts
September 01 2015 04:57 GMT
#45100
Who was deluding themselves? These polls are released constantly.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
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