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On August 07 2015 07:10 xDaunt wrote: I find it hilarious whenever pro-choice folks try to justify the morality of abortion. Good policy or not, there is nothing even remotely moral about having an abortion.
It's because morality doesn't even come into the question, any more than it does with any other medical procedure. Is it moral to take cough medicine for a cold? Is it moral to take drugs for a parasite? Is it moral to have a septic leg amputated?
Amazingly enough the bible actually makes a distinction between the value of a human life and the value of an unborn human, which it judges as being lower. But for those of us who don't rely upon the judgements of stone age Jews for morality, which includes both people like myself and also the entire pro-life lobby, that's not really relevant.
It's a medical procedure for dealing with a medical problem which limits both the freedom and the quality of life of the patient. It's simply not a moral issue. Denying the right to an abortion is a moral issue, of course, as would be mandating abortions. Both of those would be coercive. Simply having an abortion is no more moral, or immoral, than choosing not to have an abortion, it just is.
Exodus 21:22 states that causing a woman to have a miscarriage is not treated as murder. Instead the father of the unborn will exact a price from the party that caused the miscarriage which has to be approved as reasonable by the judges.
On August 07 2015 07:10 xDaunt wrote: I find it hilarious whenever pro-choice folks try to justify the morality of abortion. Good policy or not, there is nothing even remotely moral about having an abortion.
That is contingent on someone's views of what defines humanity. I define humanity as a set of feelings, experiences, relationships and accumulation/spread of knowledge. Without that, I don't see human life as distinct from a farm animal. The idea of saying there is something sacred about a human heart or a leg or something just seems overly emotional. It doesn't feel like it is the result of analysis, just "what feels right".
On August 07 2015 07:10 xDaunt wrote: I find it hilarious whenever pro-choice folks try to justify the morality of abortion. Good policy or not, there is nothing even remotely moral about having an abortion.
1. Someone gets pregnant from a rape 2. Carrying the pregnancy endangers the health of the mother, or will kill her 3. The fetus or baby will die in a very short amount of time 4, The fetus or baby will be horribly deformed
On August 07 2015 07:17 KwarK wrote:Amazingly enough the bible actually makes a distinction between the value of a human life and the value of an unborn human, which it judges as being lower. But for those of us who don't rely upon the judgements of stone age Jews for morality, which includes both people like myself and also the entire pro-life lobby, that's not really relevant. ... Exodus 21:22 states that causing a woman to have a miscarriage is not treated as murder. Instead the father of the unborn will exact a price from the party that caused the miscarriage which has to be approved as reasonable by the judges.
You're right on the point from Hebrew Law, and you even nod at the fact that Christians don't use it as the source of moral instruction except insofar as it contrasts with other contemporary codes. But let's try to be a little accurate on the history. The oldest parts of Hebrew Law are bronze age, so "stone age" is off by a good few millennia.
Secondly, for Christians--and for most secular humanists--the Golden Rule (or its negative version) is the fundamental basis of morality. The question is where abortion falls in that, which I think is hardly a simple issue. Zygotes are obviously not deserving of human rights, newborns obviously are. So the question is where exactly the line gets drawn for pragmatic and theoretical purposes. Morality of course has a great deal to do with the personal decisions involved.
But as far as the law goes, it's not exactly a question of morality; it's a question of the duty of the state to protect individuals, and who counts as an "individual." I am unpersuaded that exit through a vagina is the critical line. I can respect the arguments of people who think this, but have a hard time seeing that as the most important moral or legal distinction.
On August 07 2015 07:17 KwarK wrote:Amazingly enough the bible actually makes a distinction between the value of a human life and the value of an unborn human, which it judges as being lower. But for those of us who don't rely upon the judgements of stone age Jews for morality, which includes both people like myself and also the entire pro-life lobby, that's not really relevant. ... Exodus 21:22 states that causing a woman to have a miscarriage is not treated as murder. Instead the father of the unborn will exact a price from the party that caused the miscarriage which has to be approved as reasonable by the judges.
You're right on the point from Hebrew Law, and you even nod at the fact that Christians don't use it as the source of moral instruction except insofar as it contrasts with other contemporary codes. But let's try to be a little accurate on the history. The oldest parts of Hebrew Law are bronze age, so "stone age" is off by a good few millennia.
You're assuming there is no oral history predating the Bible. Given that the Bible goes back all the way to the foundation of the earth 7000 years ago that's a little silly. There had to be oral history predating the written Bible and it had to go all the way back through the stone age because otherwise how would the bronze age people have known about the creation of the earth? We know they lived for hundreds of years but even so none of them lived long enough to remember about creation.
On August 07 2015 07:10 xDaunt wrote: I find it hilarious whenever pro-choice folks try to justify the morality of abortion. Good policy or not, there is nothing even remotely moral about having an abortion.
1. Someone gets pregnant from a rape 2. Carrying the pregnancy endangers the health of the mother, or will kill her 3. The fetus or baby will die in a very short amount of time 4, The fetus or baby will be horribly deformed
3/4 overlap a bit I guess.
At best, those are cases where abortion is amoral. It's pretty clear to me that most every other case clearly falls into the immoral category to one degree or another.
On August 07 2015 07:10 xDaunt wrote: I find it hilarious whenever pro-choice folks try to justify the morality of abortion. Good policy or not, there is nothing even remotely moral about having an abortion.
It's because morality doesn't even come into the question, any more than it does with any other medical procedure. Is it moral to take cough medicine for a cold? Is it moral to take drugs for a parasite? Is it moral to have a septic leg amputated?
Amazingly enough the bible actually makes a distinction between the value of a human life and the value of an unborn human, which it judges as being lower. But for those of us who don't rely upon the judgements of stone age Jews for morality, which includes both people like myself and also the entire pro-life lobby, that's not really relevant.
It's a medical procedure for dealing with a medical problem which limits both the freedom and the quality of life of the patient. It's simply not a moral issue. Denying the right to an abortion is a moral issue, of course, as would be mandating abortions. Both of those would be coercive. Simply having an abortion is no more moral, or immoral, than choosing not to have an abortion, it just is.
Exodus 21:22 states that causing a woman to have a miscarriage is not treated as murder. Instead the father of the unborn will exact a price from the party that caused the miscarriage which has to be approved as reasonable by the judges.
Yes, yes, your extremism on the subject is well-documented on this site. Most people don't share the same views.
So I expect Graham, Perry, Santorum to drop next weeks. Perry forgetting how long he has was Governor of Texas, mispronounces Ronald Reagan, Graham proposing four new wars, and Santourm being the usual religious fascist that he always has been.
On August 07 2015 07:10 xDaunt wrote: I find it hilarious whenever pro-choice folks try to justify the morality of abortion. Good policy or not, there is nothing even remotely moral about having an abortion.
It's because morality doesn't even come into the question, any more than it does with any other medical procedure. Is it moral to take cough medicine for a cold? Is it moral to take drugs for a parasite? Is it moral to have a septic leg amputated?
Amazingly enough the bible actually makes a distinction between the value of a human life and the value of an unborn human, which it judges as being lower. But for those of us who don't rely upon the judgements of stone age Jews for morality, which includes both people like myself and also the entire pro-life lobby, that's not really relevant.
It's a medical procedure for dealing with a medical problem which limits both the freedom and the quality of life of the patient. It's simply not a moral issue. Denying the right to an abortion is a moral issue, of course, as would be mandating abortions. Both of those would be coercive. Simply having an abortion is no more moral, or immoral, than choosing not to have an abortion, it just is.
Exodus 21:22 states that causing a woman to have a miscarriage is not treated as murder. Instead the father of the unborn will exact a price from the party that caused the miscarriage which has to be approved as reasonable by the judges.
Yes, yes, your extremism on the subject is well-documented on this site. Most people don't share the same views.
It's not really that extreme. Infanticide is extreme. You've been inside the echo chamber too long, and thus your idea of what is 'normal' is not really indicative of reality.
Question 1: Is a fetus a baby? Question 2: Is a sperm a baby? Question 3: Is an egg a baby?
If you answered yes to any of these you are wrong and should educate yourself.
Also, who are "most people"? Is it most of the people in your conservative circle? Is it most of the people in your city? State? Country? World?
Also, can you give us the latest news is on the conservatives uncovering the planned parenthood scheme to sell baby parts for the illuminati to fund jade helm? Is it done or are pro-lifers really that stupid?
On August 07 2015 08:54 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So I expect Graham, Perry, Santorum to drop next weeks. Perry forgetting how long he has was Governor of Texas, mispronounces Ronald Reagan, Graham proposing four new wars, and Santourm being the usual religious fascist that he always has been.
Who are you and what have you done with the StealthBlue who posts articles?
Public opinion on abortion has stayed fairly stable for decades. It's 2-1 in favor of legal abortion in the first trimester, 2-1 in favor of abortion ban post 20 weeks, and about 10-15% in favor of legal late term abortions.
On August 07 2015 08:54 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So I expect Graham, Perry, Santorum to drop next weeks. Perry forgetting how long he has was Governor of Texas, mispronounces Ronald Reagan, Graham proposing four new wars, and Santourm being the usual religious fascist that he always has been.
I thought Perry has been governor for 14 years and he said so? Or am I missing something?
On August 07 2015 07:10 xDaunt wrote: I find it hilarious whenever pro-choice folks try to justify the morality of abortion. Good policy or not, there is nothing even remotely moral about having an abortion.
It's because morality doesn't even come into the question, any more than it does with any other medical procedure. Is it moral to take cough medicine for a cold? Is it moral to take drugs for a parasite? Is it moral to have a septic leg amputated?
Amazingly enough the bible actually makes a distinction between the value of a human life and the value of an unborn human, which it judges as being lower. But for those of us who don't rely upon the judgements of stone age Jews for morality, which includes both people like myself and also the entire pro-life lobby, that's not really relevant.
It's a medical procedure for dealing with a medical problem which limits both the freedom and the quality of life of the patient. It's simply not a moral issue. Denying the right to an abortion is a moral issue, of course, as would be mandating abortions. Both of those would be coercive. Simply having an abortion is no more moral, or immoral, than choosing not to have an abortion, it just is.
Exodus 21:22 states that causing a woman to have a miscarriage is not treated as murder. Instead the father of the unborn will exact a price from the party that caused the miscarriage which has to be approved as reasonable by the judges.
Yes, yes, your extremism on the subject is well-documented on this site. Most people don't share the same views.
Having an abortion is like putting a dog down. Thousands and thousands of dogs are destroyed every year.
EPT
