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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 05 2015 10:42 GMT
#43041
President Barack Obama’s plans to modernize the U.S. nuclear arsenal over the next 30 years could cost taxpayers nearly $1 trillion, according to a new study that suggests the project’s long-term price tag will far outpace available Pentagon estimates.

The study, by the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a Washington D.C.-based think tank that works closely with the Pentagon, is the latest attempt by independent researchers to determine the actual costs of Obama's ambitious plans for updating the nuclear triad — the intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs), submarines and aircraft capable of delivering nuclear warheads. The White House, which announced plans to replace the U.S.' aging arsenal in 2013, has to date only released a $73 billion estimate that covers fiscal years 2016 to 2020 — years before the program's costs are projected to spike.

Researchers Todd Harrison and Evan Montgomery found in the study that the actual cost could total $963 billion between 2014 and 2043. “Ultimately, this report finds that the Pentagon will…require as much as $12 to 13 billion per year in additional funding to support nuclear maintenance and modernization during the 2020s, when spending on U.S. nuclear forces will peak,” Harrison and Montgomery wrote.

Their findings are consistent with a widely cited assessment of $1 trillion published last year by the Monterey Institute for International Studies. Previous cost projections for Obama’s nuclear overhaul have varied widely, largely due to methodological differences, but most analysts agree that the official projection inadequately represents the costs because it stops short of the program’s “bow wave” — or peak spending years — in the late 2020s.

Many lawmakers and anti-nuclear advocates say the modernization plans are not affordable under budget restrictions that extend until 2021, but Harrison and Montgomery note that there are few feasible options for shaving down these costs. Aside from removing an entire “leg” of the nuclear triad — some experts have suggested that ICBMs are lowest priority and could therefore be dropped — the other "plausible" reductions they were able to identify “would not provide much savings when those savings are needed most,” in the next five years.

And considering that their projections will only spike nuclear spending to five percent of total U.S. defense spending even during the modernization "bow wave," scaling back these costs is not likely to be a top priority for lawmakers. "This is still a hunt for small potatoes," Harrison said at a press conference introducing the report on Tuesday.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
whatisthisasheep
Profile Joined April 2015
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-05 14:05:22
August 05 2015 14:04 GMT
#43042
One of Trump's biggest critics decided to change his tune.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/08/04/boy-was-i-wrong-about-donald-trump-heres-why/
Trump even used Gawkers prank to benefit himself

You gotta hate on whats great
Please help me get in contact with the Pats organization because I'd love to personally deflate Tom's balls.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18123 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-05 14:16:01
August 05 2015 14:12 GMT
#43043
On August 05 2015 23:04 whatisthisasheep wrote:
One of Trump's biggest critics decided to change his tune.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/08/04/boy-was-i-wrong-about-donald-trump-heres-why/
Trump even used Gawkers prank to benefit himself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ3hu4oMqaM
You gotta hate on whats great

He's not a critic, and he hasn't changed his tune? He is basically a political analyst who goes by the numbers. Instead of saying "don't take that clown seriously", he realized Trump has done something unique (basically erased his negatives), so the author admits that, and now says "take that clown seriously". Nowhere in that piece does he actually give his opinion on Donald Trump's platform. Note that clown is my editorial freedom and not (necessarily) the opinion of the washington post article.

Which says a helluvalot more about republicans than about Donald Trump. Having a lunatic in your primaries is an embarrassment, but could happen to everybody. Having that lunatic be the front runner in your primaries makes you the laughing stock of the world.

That is, unless he actually wins the presidency, then nobody will be laughing, and I expect it won't be long before the world is thrown into the largest political crisis since the cold war. Trump vs. Putin is not going to be funny for anybody.

Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
August 05 2015 14:22 GMT
#43044
On August 05 2015 14:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2015 14:12 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
I don't think Donald Trump understands foreign relations

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/04/politics/donald-trump-mexico-wall-pay/index.html


The third time O'Reilly asked, Trump said, "I'm gonna say, 'Mexico, this is not going to continue, you're going to pay for that wall,' and they will pay for the wall. And Bill, it's peanuts, what we're talking about."


I think it's going to take more to get them to pay for a wall then just telling them to.


I've been going through lol scenarios in my head where Trump actually is this downright fucking amazing negotiator and gets all this done. 4 years later, the US has an outstanding economy due purely to Trump getting us a ton of amazing deals.


Okay, but let's be real. Donald Trump is a mediocre businessman who got to his position by abusing the way that bankruptcy laws work in our position, then got a TV show that allowed him to build his brand. The actual story of how he got his wealth (inhereited dad's company, immediately transitioned into using that capital base while working on the fringes of the law, where intimidation etc. are the standard MO, and abusing bankruptcy law to do it (start multiple businesses, a few fail horribly, a few succeed. Keep them legally separate so you declare on the failures and don't have to pay out, but can pocket proceeds of successes.) The whole thing is shady ass business.

On August 05 2015 15:17 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2015 15:06 GreenHorizons wrote:

He appears to be a great negotiator in general, but he's never had the leverage of the most powerful military in the world or the ability to cut off the foreign aid faucet.

I think he would either get the best deals ever, start WWIII, or both.


One thing I will say in support of Trump: I think too much emphasis is placed on the idea of having loads and loads of experience in this or that. When someone is president, they have a giant staff of advisers. Does Trump really need foreign policy experience? Or is being president really just about being a leader and knowing how to form a good team? Is it not possible that someone who is a really good leader, charismatic and well spoken could be a great president? I'd argue it's more about the team than the person.


You are so close to being right on this. Yes, being president is mostly about forming a good team. It's also about being personally impressive, but Obama has shown that isn't enough. The problem with the last two administrations was that the adviser selection was terrible. Obama's guys were incompetent, and Bush's guys spent the whole time feuding between factions, which meant that almost none of the admirable part of Dubya's domestic agenda got off the ground (and there was a surprising amount that was admirable). For whatever it's worth, fear of advisers is the thing scaring me away from Jeb right now, who personally I rather like.

But would Trump pick good foreign policy advisers? I doubt it. Would he even know where to look? Would he have a good economic team? I doubt it. The guy doesn't know shit about the economy. You need to have a basis of knowledge to pick advisers. This is why a President Kerry would have been awesome.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
August 05 2015 14:31 GMT
#43045
fewer but better is also a cost saving move more generally. the icbms in particular
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15725 Posts
August 05 2015 16:59 GMT
#43046
On August 05 2015 23:22 Yoav wrote:

But would Trump pick good foreign policy advisers? I doubt it. Would he even know where to look? Would he have a good economic team? I doubt it. The guy doesn't know shit about the economy. You need to have a basis of knowledge to pick advisers. This is why a President Kerry would have been awesome.


Can you elaborate on what you think makes this task so impossible? Could he not hire consultants the same way candidates hire campaign managers and the like? How is it such an unknowable thing? I'm sure there are a few people you could hire to give you a very thorough rundown on the pros/cons/views of a wide range of candidates.
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2654 Posts
August 05 2015 17:21 GMT
#43047
It's pretty much impossible to rate a president before he's had 8 years in office so it's not certain Trump would suck. Weirder things have happened.
waaaaaaaaaaaooooow - Felicia, SPF2:T
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23479 Posts
August 05 2015 17:41 GMT
#43048
On August 06 2015 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2015 23:22 Yoav wrote:

But would Trump pick good foreign policy advisers? I doubt it. Would he even know where to look? Would he have a good economic team? I doubt it. The guy doesn't know shit about the economy. You need to have a basis of knowledge to pick advisers. This is why a President Kerry would have been awesome.


Can you elaborate on what you think makes this task so impossible? Could he not hire consultants the same way candidates hire campaign managers and the like? How is it such an unknowable thing? I'm sure there are a few people you could hire to give you a very thorough rundown on the pros/cons/views of a wide range of candidates.


I think he would surround himself with people like his lawyer who didn't think spousal rape is a thing, and his campaign adviser who called Rev. Sharpton's daughter a N****r.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 05 2015 17:43 GMT
#43049
Another ill-advised ad lib from Jeb Bush, another opportunity for Democrats.

Looking to curry favor with religious conservatives at the outset of a competitive primary fight, Bush on Tuesday repeated his call to cut off funding for Planned Parenthood — and then he went even further, questioning the amount of government support for women’s health programs generally.

The Romneyesque unforced error drew a fast and furious backlash from Democrats, causing Bush to backtrack almost immediately and to acknowledge that he “misspoke.”

The controversial comment came as Bush started to acknowledge the importance of federal funding for some women’s health programs, and then stopped mid-sentence to qualify his remarks, asserting that he believes the current amount of funding is likely too much.

“I’m not sure we need half a billion dollars in funding for women’s health programs,” Bush said, before continuing with his point. “If you took dollar for dollar, there are many extraordinarily fine organizations, community health organizations that exist, federally sponsored community health organizations to provide quality care for women on a wide variety of health issues.

“But abortion should not be funded by the government, any government in my mind,” he concluded.

Bush, who told the audience that, as governor, he defunded Planned Parenthood in Florida, prefaced his comments by acknowledging that Democrats are likely to attack his comments — and the GOP’s current fight against Planned Parenthood, which gained steam after the release of several controversial videos that allegedly show organization officials talking about the sale of fetal tissue and organs.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15725 Posts
August 05 2015 17:47 GMT
#43050
I really wish this ridiculous "misspoke" thing would get questioned more aggressively. Bush shouldn't have to only say he misspoke. He should have to say he is wrong and give another perspective. All politicians should. It always feels so juvenile. "never mind and you aren't allowed to be mean about me saying it to begin with".
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18123 Posts
August 05 2015 17:56 GMT
#43051
Tying into the discussion about the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki a few pages back:


It is said that those who don't know their own history are condemned to repeat it. Japanese leaders are rightly criticised for their continued attempts to whitewash Japan's WWII crimes in China, Korea and South East Asia.

It is also true that terror bombing was not invented by the United States. The Nazis unleashed it at Guernica in 1937 and again on British cities in 1940.

The Japanese bombed Chongqing for six years. The British destroyed Dresden and many other German cities.

But no other bombing campaign in WW2 was as intense in the destruction of civilian lives as the US bombing of Japan in 1945. Between 300,000 and 900,000 people died.

As Jamal Maddox put it to me so well, how was it that the country that entered the war to save civilisation ended it by slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians?

Source
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23479 Posts
August 05 2015 17:57 GMT
#43052
He didn't misspeak at all. He said exactly what he meant and it didn't occur to him why it was dumb until he got the backlash.

Expect his backing off those comments to lose him a percent or two. Trump has more support than Bush and Walker combined, this is going to open up that gap more.

This whole planned parenthood thing has been pretty ridiculous from the start. Republicans might of had an issue if they didn't go full stupid with it.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15725 Posts
August 05 2015 18:05 GMT
#43053
On August 06 2015 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:

This whole planned parenthood thing has been pretty ridiculous from the start. Republicans might of had an issue if they didn't go full stupid with it.


I don't think so. I think planned parenthood and gay marriage are two issues where that ship has sailed. I don't think being against either of those things is viable on a national stage.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-05 18:07:05
August 05 2015 18:05 GMT
#43054
On August 06 2015 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2015 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:
On August 05 2015 23:22 Yoav wrote:

But would Trump pick good foreign policy advisers? I doubt it. Would he even know where to look? Would he have a good economic team? I doubt it. The guy doesn't know shit about the economy. You need to have a basis of knowledge to pick advisers. This is why a President Kerry would have been awesome.


Can you elaborate on what you think makes this task so impossible? Could he not hire consultants the same way candidates hire campaign managers and the like? How is it such an unknowable thing? I'm sure there are a few people you could hire to give you a very thorough rundown on the pros/cons/views of a wide range of candidates.


I think he would surround himself with people like his lawyer who didn't think spousal rape is a thing, and his campaign adviser who called Rev. Sharpton's daughter a N****r.

The fact that people are even thinking that Trump could be a passable president is terrifying. The man is a walking nightmare. The only plus side to all of this is that it is forcing the Republicans to look in the mirror and see what type of people they have been courting since 2,000.

Also, not to invoke Godwin's law, but political apathy is how terrifying people get elected. No one takes them seriously and then suddenly they are the front runner.

On August 06 2015 03:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2015 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:

This whole planned parenthood thing has been pretty ridiculous from the start. Republicans might of had an issue if they didn't go full stupid with it.


I don't think so. I think planned parenthood and gay marriage are two issues where that ship has sailed. I don't think being against either of those things is viable on a national stage.


The fact that they keep going back to the well on that one, even though national polls show no one is on their side blows my mind.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 05 2015 18:13 GMT
#43055
THE UNITED States may be turning a corner in presidential politics. Although the election itself is more than a year away, the latest reports to the Federal Election Commission show that a wealthy oligarchy of donors has come to dominate campaign finance, particularly in the crowded Republican contest. Fewer than 400 families are responsible for almost half the money raised in the campaign so far, according to an analysis by the New York Times. This class of wealthy patrons, some with new fortunes and others of long-standing, is throwing money into campaigns, not of all which will end happily. But the preeminence of this clan of tycoons so early in the season is not a good sign.

The post-Watergate reforms sought to limit the corrosive power of money in politics, enhance transparency and encourage candidates to raise funds from a broad base of supporters. But new vehicles have become available that do the opposite, encouraging wealthy donors to make unlimited contributions, concentrating the power of the plutocracy and overwhelming the impact of small donors.

One of the most important of these channels is the super PAC, an organization that can accept unlimited contributions. Super PACs, which must disclose donors, are supposed to be independent of the candidates, but in fact most are not. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, in the 2012 election, all the presidential super PACs together raised about $26 million by June 30 of the year before the vote. Now, at the same point in the cycle, they have raised $258 million, nearly 10 times more. Moreover, the super PACs dwarf the actual campaign organizations in fundraising. The total the super PACs have raised is nearly double the more than $130 million the presidential campaigns raised in the first six months of this year, the center reports. The super PACs are the tangible result of the Supreme Court’s Citizens United decision that opened the floodgates to unlimited campaign giving. A second vehicle, groups that claim to be social welfare organizations, is also worrying because the donations do not have to be disclosed to the public.

The Times analysis of FEC and Internal Revenue Service records shows that candidates are becoming dependent on a small pool of wealthy Americans. The analysis found that about 130 families and their businesses provided more than half the money raised through June by the Republican candidates and their super PACs. The Democrats also have some big-money fat-cats, but they also have a wider base of smaller donors.

What’s wrong with this concentration of wealth and power? The nation has often been ruled by elites, and rued it. But the potential to warp the political system is ever-present when such large sums are poured into politics. A quick scan down the list of the biggest donors shows that many of them would be affected by government policy under a new president — tycoons who have made their fortunes in private equity, hydraulic fracturing and oil field services, technology and other businesses.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 05 2015 18:17 GMT
#43056
Remember folks, money is free speech. And if you have more money, you get more speech. And if you're poor and have no money, well you get to vote for whoever the rich people decided on.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 05 2015 18:19 GMT
#43057
Also the for the second day shots were fired in MS where the jade helm exercises were taking place.

North Carolina is not one of the states where the U.S. military training exercise dubbed "Jade Helm 15" is taking place this summer. Nevertheless, three men from Gaston County were charged with conspiring to arm themselves with illegal explosive devices to combat what they saw as a potential military takeover, according to court documents unsealed Monday in U.S. District Court in Charlotte.

The documents alleged Walter Eugene Litteral, 50, Christopher James Barker, 42, and Christopher Todd Campbell, 30, stockpiled weapons and discussed how to build homemade explosive devices. Litteral also allegedly tried to purchase a firearm for Barker, who is a convicted felon.

A tipster first contacted the FBI in June after becoming concerned that Litteral and Campbell were "preparing to use lethal force against United States government forces in order to defend against the imposition of martial law or other infringements on their rights," according to an affidavit. The affidavit noted that the two men had discussed their belief that "Jade Helm 15" was actually a cover for the implementation of martial law with the tipster.

Litteral ordered a great deal of military-grade equipment from the tipster, including approximately 60 rounds of ammunition for a .338 caliber long-range rifle, Kevlar helmets and body armor, according to the affidavit. He requested that the equipment be delivered by July 15, the start date of the military training exercise. He also purchased smokeless rifle powder, two-way radios and balaclavas.

The affidavit cited recorded conversations that showed Litteral allegedly planned to have his house rigged with explosives should any government agents come knocking.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21955 Posts
August 05 2015 18:36 GMT
#43058
On August 06 2015 03:19 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Also the for the second day shots were fired in MS where the jade helm exercises were taking place.

Show nested quote +
North Carolina is not one of the states where the U.S. military training exercise dubbed "Jade Helm 15" is taking place this summer. Nevertheless, three men from Gaston County were charged with conspiring to arm themselves with illegal explosive devices to combat what they saw as a potential military takeover, according to court documents unsealed Monday in U.S. District Court in Charlotte.

The documents alleged Walter Eugene Litteral, 50, Christopher James Barker, 42, and Christopher Todd Campbell, 30, stockpiled weapons and discussed how to build homemade explosive devices. Litteral also allegedly tried to purchase a firearm for Barker, who is a convicted felon.

A tipster first contacted the FBI in June after becoming concerned that Litteral and Campbell were "preparing to use lethal force against United States government forces in order to defend against the imposition of martial law or other infringements on their rights," according to an affidavit. The affidavit noted that the two men had discussed their belief that "Jade Helm 15" was actually a cover for the implementation of martial law with the tipster.

Litteral ordered a great deal of military-grade equipment from the tipster, including approximately 60 rounds of ammunition for a .338 caliber long-range rifle, Kevlar helmets and body armor, according to the affidavit. He requested that the equipment be delivered by July 15, the start date of the military training exercise. He also purchased smokeless rifle powder, two-way radios and balaclavas.

The affidavit cited recorded conversations that showed Litteral allegedly planned to have his house rigged with explosives should any government agents come knocking.


Source

So not only Texas is this stupid?
Wow.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 05 2015 18:44 GMT
#43059
These free stater, sovereign citizen, government fearing idiots exist in every state in some way. You should see some of the legal non-sense they send my firm. I had one guy demand the court order I be executed for treason for bringing a trespass action against him. There is a special breed of stupid in the US that desperately wants to believe the government is coming for them to take away their guns and force their communities to accept minorities.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
August 05 2015 19:07 GMT
#43060
On August 06 2015 03:36 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2015 03:19 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Also the for the second day shots were fired in MS where the jade helm exercises were taking place.

North Carolina is not one of the states where the U.S. military training exercise dubbed "Jade Helm 15" is taking place this summer. Nevertheless, three men from Gaston County were charged with conspiring to arm themselves with illegal explosive devices to combat what they saw as a potential military takeover, according to court documents unsealed Monday in U.S. District Court in Charlotte.

The documents alleged Walter Eugene Litteral, 50, Christopher James Barker, 42, and Christopher Todd Campbell, 30, stockpiled weapons and discussed how to build homemade explosive devices. Litteral also allegedly tried to purchase a firearm for Barker, who is a convicted felon.

A tipster first contacted the FBI in June after becoming concerned that Litteral and Campbell were "preparing to use lethal force against United States government forces in order to defend against the imposition of martial law or other infringements on their rights," according to an affidavit. The affidavit noted that the two men had discussed their belief that "Jade Helm 15" was actually a cover for the implementation of martial law with the tipster.

Litteral ordered a great deal of military-grade equipment from the tipster, including approximately 60 rounds of ammunition for a .338 caliber long-range rifle, Kevlar helmets and body armor, according to the affidavit. He requested that the equipment be delivered by July 15, the start date of the military training exercise. He also purchased smokeless rifle powder, two-way radios and balaclavas.

The affidavit cited recorded conversations that showed Litteral allegedly planned to have his house rigged with explosives should any government agents come knocking.


Source

So not only Texas is this stupid?
Wow.

Texas is pretty smart compared to the rest of the south. They're just more macho, gay, and afraid of people knowing that they're queers with steers.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
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