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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering.
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On May 01 2013 03:24 Zandar wrote:
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering.
Yeah I know  As someone with a pronounced interest in general politics, I'm merely doing my best to substantiate the claim that US politics are worth knowing about. I try my best to add to European political threads, but I can only say so much, and sadly, those threads don't seem to stay bumped for long.
So, Europeans, step yo game up
WASHINGTON—President Obama said Tuesday that his administration would re-engage Congress on closing the U.S. military-run detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
"It needs to be closed," Obama said at a White House news conference marking the first 100 days of his second term. "I'm going to go back at this."
Obama's comments come amid reports that as many as 100 prisoners at Guantanamo are engaged in a hunger strike. Obama had vowed in his 2008 presidential campaign to close Guantanamo but failed to get it done in his first term.
"It' is not a surprise to me that we are having problems at Guantanamo," Obama said. Obama called Guantanamo unsafe and expensive and said it lessens cooperation with U.S. allies.
He noted that Congress has legislatively blocked him from closing Guantanamo but offered no solution to getting around that hurdle.
Obama: We need to close Guantanamo Bay
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We don't talk about Netherlands politics for the same reason we don't talk about Texas politics. It just doesn't concern enough people on the board. Luckily, there is a US politics megathread that I could post stuff about a Texas congressman or governor, but it likely won't get much response even within the topic.
Note that we do have a Euro debt crisis thread that encompasses a lot of Euro politics, which is reminiscent of some of the US specific politics threads that kept getting sidetracked. This topic was created to consolidate the different topics that pop up.
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On May 01 2013 03:32 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 03:24 Zandar wrote:
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering. Yeah I know As someone with a pronounced interest in general politics, I'm merely doing my best to substantiate the claim that US politics are worth knowing about. I try my best to add to European political threads, but I can only say so much, and sadly, those threads don't seem to stay bumped for long. So, Europeans, step yo game up Show nested quote +WASHINGTON—President Obama said Tuesday that his administration would re-engage Congress on closing the U.S. military-run detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
"It needs to be closed," Obama said at a White House news conference marking the first 100 days of his second term. "I'm going to go back at this."
Obama's comments come amid reports that as many as 100 prisoners at Guantanamo are engaged in a hunger strike. Obama had vowed in his 2008 presidential campaign to close Guantanamo but failed to get it done in his first term.
"It' is not a surprise to me that we are having problems at Guantanamo," Obama said. Obama called Guantanamo unsafe and expensive and said it lessens cooperation with U.S. allies.
He noted that Congress has legislatively blocked him from closing Guantanamo but offered no solution to getting around that hurdle. Obama: We need to close Guantanamo Bay
What do you tell a combat veteran who disagrees with Guantanamo Bay needing to be closed? Or would you just let that one go. A few weeks ago I was on a bus and having a nice chat with an older gentleman who was in the Army and had been in a lot of combat. He saw my USMC jacket and just made some small talk about military stuff until these 2 young kids sat down near us with a bunch of signs such as "CLOSE GUANTANAMO" among other ones related to that. Him and these kids started arguing and I just kept my mouth shut. He basically told me that those kids have no idea the atrocities that those people commit and that they deserve what they get in Gitmo. I didn't even know what to say to the guy so I just politely nodded to whatever he was saying.
What would you tell someone who thinks it should be open?
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On May 01 2013 03:23 farvacola wrote:
In response to your edits, I'm not entirely sure how all of Europe matches up to the US numbers, but the fact that we are counting an entire continent as opposed to a single country changes things a bit. Additionally, it would make sense that the many European nations have news and current events interests that are more divergent that those belonging to US citizens. In other words, US citizens are more likely to all have a similar interest in an aspect of US politics than a Swede, a Dutchman, and a German might in terms of European politics.
USA like 300M, the EU like 400M I think, but that excludes non EU countries.
About countries more caring about local politics compared to EU politics, you have a point there.
The general public in the EU doesn't care about EU politcs at all.
Which is bad, since they make our laws too. Not only our government.
But we can't really vote for them, most are appointed. We don't hear much about them, know about them and don't care about them.
It's quite weird actually, since the USA seem to be the other way around, people care more about federal politics than state politics I think? Has it always been like that?
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On May 01 2013 03:41 aksfjh wrote:
We don't talk about Netherlands politics for the same reason we don't talk about Texas politics. It just doesn't concern enough people on the board.
On May 01 2013 03:32 farvacola wrote:So, Europeans, step yo game up
Yeah you guys hit the nail.
EU should step up and become United States of Europe imo, fuck countries
Problem is, the current EU is NOT democratic at all imo. That should change first.
To stay on topic: I think that is way better in the USA.
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On May 01 2013 03:44 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 03:32 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:24 Zandar wrote:
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering. Yeah I know As someone with a pronounced interest in general politics, I'm merely doing my best to substantiate the claim that US politics are worth knowing about. I try my best to add to European political threads, but I can only say so much, and sadly, those threads don't seem to stay bumped for long. So, Europeans, step yo game up WASHINGTON—President Obama said Tuesday that his administration would re-engage Congress on closing the U.S. military-run detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
"It needs to be closed," Obama said at a White House news conference marking the first 100 days of his second term. "I'm going to go back at this."
Obama's comments come amid reports that as many as 100 prisoners at Guantanamo are engaged in a hunger strike. Obama had vowed in his 2008 presidential campaign to close Guantanamo but failed to get it done in his first term.
"It' is not a surprise to me that we are having problems at Guantanamo," Obama said. Obama called Guantanamo unsafe and expensive and said it lessens cooperation with U.S. allies.
He noted that Congress has legislatively blocked him from closing Guantanamo but offered no solution to getting around that hurdle. Obama: We need to close Guantanamo Bay What do you tell a combat veteran who disagrees with Guantanamo Bay needing to be closed? Or would you just let that one go. A few weeks ago I was on a bus and having a nice chat with an older gentleman who was in the Army and had been in a lot of combat. He saw my USMC jacket and just made some small talk about military stuff until these 2 young kids sat down near us with a bunch of signs such as "CLOSE GUANTANAMO" among other ones related to that. Him and these kids started arguing and I just kept my mouth shut. He basically told me that those kids have no idea the atrocities that those people commit and that they deserve what they get in Gitmo. I didn't even know what to say to the guy so I just politely nodded to whatever he was saying. What would you tell someone who thinks it should be open?
Well, on a basic level, the opinions of veterans on the feasibility and propriety of a decentralized enemy combatant prison are not any more important than any other citizens. What about this mans veteran status makes him any more able to judge the relative guilt of those imprisoned in Gitmo than anyone else? In fact, veterans with combat experience are likely some of the most biased and least objective on the matter; that man pronounced guilty an entire prison camp, one full of tales of innocence and wrongful capture.
And @ Zandar, I was more referencing the number of Europeans posting on TL rather than the entire population of the continent.
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On May 01 2013 03:53 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 03:44 kmillz wrote:On May 01 2013 03:32 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:24 Zandar wrote:
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering. Yeah I know As someone with a pronounced interest in general politics, I'm merely doing my best to substantiate the claim that US politics are worth knowing about. I try my best to add to European political threads, but I can only say so much, and sadly, those threads don't seem to stay bumped for long. So, Europeans, step yo game up WASHINGTON—President Obama said Tuesday that his administration would re-engage Congress on closing the U.S. military-run detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
"It needs to be closed," Obama said at a White House news conference marking the first 100 days of his second term. "I'm going to go back at this."
Obama's comments come amid reports that as many as 100 prisoners at Guantanamo are engaged in a hunger strike. Obama had vowed in his 2008 presidential campaign to close Guantanamo but failed to get it done in his first term.
"It' is not a surprise to me that we are having problems at Guantanamo," Obama said. Obama called Guantanamo unsafe and expensive and said it lessens cooperation with U.S. allies.
He noted that Congress has legislatively blocked him from closing Guantanamo but offered no solution to getting around that hurdle. Obama: We need to close Guantanamo Bay What do you tell a combat veteran who disagrees with Guantanamo Bay needing to be closed? Or would you just let that one go. A few weeks ago I was on a bus and having a nice chat with an older gentleman who was in the Army and had been in a lot of combat. He saw my USMC jacket and just made some small talk about military stuff until these 2 young kids sat down near us with a bunch of signs such as "CLOSE GUANTANAMO" among other ones related to that. Him and these kids started arguing and I just kept my mouth shut. He basically told me that those kids have no idea the atrocities that those people commit and that they deserve what they get in Gitmo. I didn't even know what to say to the guy so I just politely nodded to whatever he was saying. What would you tell someone who thinks it should be open? Well, on a basic level, the opinions of veterans on the feasibility and propriety of a decentralized enemy combatant prison are not any more important than any other citizens. What about this mans veteran status makes him any more able to judge the relative guilt of those imprisoned in Gitmo than anyone else? In fact, veterans with combat experience are likely some of the most biased and least objective on the matter; that man pronounced guilty an entire prison camp, one full of tales of innocence and wrongful capture. And @ Zandar, I was more referencing the number of Europeans posting on TL rather than the entire population of the continent.
I only mentioned that he was a combat veteran to highlight where his apparent bias stems from, not to suggest it gives him more credibility.
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Obama promised to close Gitmo once, now he promises to do it again. This really seems like politics as usual. Military doesn't want captured terrorists (or combatants of some kind) either going free or for them to be housed in other facilities for lack or room or political ramifications for them to be in America, who knows which. I'd be seriously surprised if this was more than talk from Obama, and maybe form a commission or something to appease people wanting action.
In other news, some new political consequences when we learn just how much the United States sponsored the Trsarnaev family while the two sons were planning a terrorist bombing.
The Tsarnaev family, including the suspected terrorists and their parents, benefited from more than $100,000 in taxpayer-funded assistance — a bonanza ranging from cash and food stamps to Section 8 housing from 2002 to 2012, the Herald has learned.
“The breadth of the benefits the family was receiving was stunning,” said a person with knowledge of documents handed over to a legislative committee today.
The state has handed over more than 500 documents to the 11-member House Post Audit and Oversight Committee, which today met for the first time and plans to call in officials from the Department of Transitional Assistance to testify.
“I can assure members of the public that this committee will actively review every single piece of information we can find because clearly the public has a substantial right to know what benefits, if any, this family or individuals accused of some horrific crimes were receiving,” said state Rep. David Linsky (D-Natick), the committee’s chairman.
Linsky’s committee has requested documents from the DTA, the state’s Medicaid director and Health and Human Services Secretary John Polanowicz. But so far the committee has not released the records publicly, citing a privilege the DTA is asserting under state law.
Transitional assistance officials also told the Herald tonight that the agency was conducting its own investigation into whether Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s family ever notified the DTA about his extended trip to Russia, and has since expanded its probe to include a full history of the benefits received by the entire Tsarnaev family.
boston herald
They were just another struggling family in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The forgotten poor, facing increasing income inequality and a high-unemployment economy. Tongue in cheek aside, they qualified for all these benefits where elsewhere in this thread it was talked about at length wealth inequality, income inequality, and welfare in the United States. I doubt any backlash will last even a month, but it's an interesting political angle that might stir up sympathy for welfare reform (or at least state welfare reform).
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The only people at all stirred up by an association of Tsarnaev with welfare are the people who are already convinced that everyone on food stamps drives a Lexus while smoking cigarettes they purchased with said food stamps.
On May 01 2013 04:01 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 03:53 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:44 kmillz wrote:On May 01 2013 03:32 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:24 Zandar wrote:
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering. Yeah I know As someone with a pronounced interest in general politics, I'm merely doing my best to substantiate the claim that US politics are worth knowing about. I try my best to add to European political threads, but I can only say so much, and sadly, those threads don't seem to stay bumped for long. So, Europeans, step yo game up WASHINGTON—President Obama said Tuesday that his administration would re-engage Congress on closing the U.S. military-run detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
"It needs to be closed," Obama said at a White House news conference marking the first 100 days of his second term. "I'm going to go back at this."
Obama's comments come amid reports that as many as 100 prisoners at Guantanamo are engaged in a hunger strike. Obama had vowed in his 2008 presidential campaign to close Guantanamo but failed to get it done in his first term.
"It' is not a surprise to me that we are having problems at Guantanamo," Obama said. Obama called Guantanamo unsafe and expensive and said it lessens cooperation with U.S. allies.
He noted that Congress has legislatively blocked him from closing Guantanamo but offered no solution to getting around that hurdle. Obama: We need to close Guantanamo Bay What do you tell a combat veteran who disagrees with Guantanamo Bay needing to be closed? Or would you just let that one go. A few weeks ago I was on a bus and having a nice chat with an older gentleman who was in the Army and had been in a lot of combat. He saw my USMC jacket and just made some small talk about military stuff until these 2 young kids sat down near us with a bunch of signs such as "CLOSE GUANTANAMO" among other ones related to that. Him and these kids started arguing and I just kept my mouth shut. He basically told me that those kids have no idea the atrocities that those people commit and that they deserve what they get in Gitmo. I didn't even know what to say to the guy so I just politely nodded to whatever he was saying. What would you tell someone who thinks it should be open? Well, on a basic level, the opinions of veterans on the feasibility and propriety of a decentralized enemy combatant prison are not any more important than any other citizens. What about this mans veteran status makes him any more able to judge the relative guilt of those imprisoned in Gitmo than anyone else? In fact, veterans with combat experience are likely some of the most biased and least objective on the matter; that man pronounced guilty an entire prison camp, one full of tales of innocence and wrongful capture. And @ Zandar, I was more referencing the number of Europeans posting on TL rather than the entire population of the continent. I only mentioned that he was a combat veteran to highlight where his apparent bias stems from, not to suggest it gives him more credibility.
Well, I think it can be demonstrated that Gitmo is unnecessary and wasteful, in addition to being a place full of wrongfully imprisoned men with beards who look like they might be dangerous. Don't get me wrong, there are and have been terrorists imprisoned there, but its distance from continental US soil and lack of easy oversight makes for a situation ripe for human rights abuses in the name of the war on terror.
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On May 01 2013 03:53 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 03:44 kmillz wrote:On May 01 2013 03:32 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:24 Zandar wrote:
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering. Yeah I know As someone with a pronounced interest in general politics, I'm merely doing my best to substantiate the claim that US politics are worth knowing about. I try my best to add to European political threads, but I can only say so much, and sadly, those threads don't seem to stay bumped for long. So, Europeans, step yo game up WASHINGTON—President Obama said Tuesday that his administration would re-engage Congress on closing the U.S. military-run detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
"It needs to be closed," Obama said at a White House news conference marking the first 100 days of his second term. "I'm going to go back at this."
Obama's comments come amid reports that as many as 100 prisoners at Guantanamo are engaged in a hunger strike. Obama had vowed in his 2008 presidential campaign to close Guantanamo but failed to get it done in his first term.
"It' is not a surprise to me that we are having problems at Guantanamo," Obama said. Obama called Guantanamo unsafe and expensive and said it lessens cooperation with U.S. allies.
He noted that Congress has legislatively blocked him from closing Guantanamo but offered no solution to getting around that hurdle. Obama: We need to close Guantanamo Bay What do you tell a combat veteran who disagrees with Guantanamo Bay needing to be closed? Or would you just let that one go. A few weeks ago I was on a bus and having a nice chat with an older gentleman who was in the Army and had been in a lot of combat. He saw my USMC jacket and just made some small talk about military stuff until these 2 young kids sat down near us with a bunch of signs such as "CLOSE GUANTANAMO" among other ones related to that. Him and these kids started arguing and I just kept my mouth shut. He basically told me that those kids have no idea the atrocities that those people commit and that they deserve what they get in Gitmo. I didn't even know what to say to the guy so I just politely nodded to whatever he was saying. What would you tell someone who thinks it should be open? Well, on a basic level, the opinions of veterans on the feasibility and propriety of a decentralized enemy combatant prison are not any more important than any other citizens. What about this mans veteran status makes him any more able to judge the relative guilt of those imprisoned in Gitmo than anyone else? In fact, veterans with combat experience are likely some of the most biased and least objective on the matter; that man pronounced guilty an entire prison camp, one full of tales of innocence and wrongful capture.
It's interesting. Some of the most dehumanizing statements I have heard about the people in the Middle East have been from those that have served over there. Outright racist statements and condemnation. I never hear some middle age woman refer to a Muslim as a sand******, but plenty from service members.
The take-away is to not take their word with any greater weight than any other non-expert's opinion. They are trained for combat and combat related tasks. They are not trained to concern themselves with human rights or judge the innocence of people captured over there.
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On May 01 2013 04:05 farvacola wrote:
The only people at all stirred up by an association of Tsarnaev with welfare are the people who are already convinced that everyone on food stamps drives a Lexus while smoking cigarettes they purchased with said food stamps.
I think the accusation is that they eat steaks and lobster bought with food stamps and welfare, then use their REAL income to buy cigarettes, alcohol, and cell phones (because poor people don't deserve any of those).
But yea, $10k a year in welfare for 10 years for a 4 person household. Sounds like they were bankrolled big time by taxpayers.
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On May 01 2013 04:12 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 04:05 farvacola wrote:
The only people at all stirred up by an association of Tsarnaev with welfare are the people who are already convinced that everyone on food stamps drives a Lexus while smoking cigarettes they purchased with said food stamps. I think the accusation is that they eat steaks and lobster bought with food stamps and welfare, then use their REAL income to buy cigarettes, alcohol, and cell phones (because poor people don't deserve any of those). But yea, $10k a year in welfare for 10 years for a 4 person household. Sounds like they were bankrolled big time by taxpayers.
Haha, my mistake  Sometimes I forget what sort of mental gymnastics those who blame the poor go through.
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On May 01 2013 04:06 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 03:53 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:44 kmillz wrote:On May 01 2013 03:32 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:24 Zandar wrote:
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering. Yeah I know As someone with a pronounced interest in general politics, I'm merely doing my best to substantiate the claim that US politics are worth knowing about. I try my best to add to European political threads, but I can only say so much, and sadly, those threads don't seem to stay bumped for long. So, Europeans, step yo game up WASHINGTON—President Obama said Tuesday that his administration would re-engage Congress on closing the U.S. military-run detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
"It needs to be closed," Obama said at a White House news conference marking the first 100 days of his second term. "I'm going to go back at this."
Obama's comments come amid reports that as many as 100 prisoners at Guantanamo are engaged in a hunger strike. Obama had vowed in his 2008 presidential campaign to close Guantanamo but failed to get it done in his first term.
"It' is not a surprise to me that we are having problems at Guantanamo," Obama said. Obama called Guantanamo unsafe and expensive and said it lessens cooperation with U.S. allies.
He noted that Congress has legislatively blocked him from closing Guantanamo but offered no solution to getting around that hurdle. Obama: We need to close Guantanamo Bay What do you tell a combat veteran who disagrees with Guantanamo Bay needing to be closed? Or would you just let that one go. A few weeks ago I was on a bus and having a nice chat with an older gentleman who was in the Army and had been in a lot of combat. He saw my USMC jacket and just made some small talk about military stuff until these 2 young kids sat down near us with a bunch of signs such as "CLOSE GUANTANAMO" among other ones related to that. Him and these kids started arguing and I just kept my mouth shut. He basically told me that those kids have no idea the atrocities that those people commit and that they deserve what they get in Gitmo. I didn't even know what to say to the guy so I just politely nodded to whatever he was saying. What would you tell someone who thinks it should be open? Well, on a basic level, the opinions of veterans on the feasibility and propriety of a decentralized enemy combatant prison are not any more important than any other citizens. What about this mans veteran status makes him any more able to judge the relative guilt of those imprisoned in Gitmo than anyone else? In fact, veterans with combat experience are likely some of the most biased and least objective on the matter; that man pronounced guilty an entire prison camp, one full of tales of innocence and wrongful capture. It's interesting. Some of the most dehumanizing statements I have heard about the people in the Middle East have been from those that have served over there. Outright racist statements and condemnation. I never hear some middle age woman refer to a Muslim as a sand******, but plenty from service members. The take-away is to not take their word with any greater weight than any other non-expert's opinion. They are trained for combat and combat related tasks. They are not trained to concern themselves with human rights or judge the innocence of people captured over there.
Bad eggs in every group, it's a shame that a few racist veterans who represent the military make us all look like judgmental assholes.
On May 01 2013 04:05 farvacola wrote:The only people at all stirred up by an association of Tsarnaev with welfare are the people who are already convinced that everyone on food stamps drives a Lexus while smoking cigarettes they purchased with said food stamps. Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 04:01 kmillz wrote:On May 01 2013 03:53 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:44 kmillz wrote:On May 01 2013 03:32 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:24 Zandar wrote:
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering. Yeah I know As someone with a pronounced interest in general politics, I'm merely doing my best to substantiate the claim that US politics are worth knowing about. I try my best to add to European political threads, but I can only say so much, and sadly, those threads don't seem to stay bumped for long. So, Europeans, step yo game up WASHINGTON—President Obama said Tuesday that his administration would re-engage Congress on closing the U.S. military-run detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
"It needs to be closed," Obama said at a White House news conference marking the first 100 days of his second term. "I'm going to go back at this."
Obama's comments come amid reports that as many as 100 prisoners at Guantanamo are engaged in a hunger strike. Obama had vowed in his 2008 presidential campaign to close Guantanamo but failed to get it done in his first term.
"It' is not a surprise to me that we are having problems at Guantanamo," Obama said. Obama called Guantanamo unsafe and expensive and said it lessens cooperation with U.S. allies.
He noted that Congress has legislatively blocked him from closing Guantanamo but offered no solution to getting around that hurdle. Obama: We need to close Guantanamo Bay What do you tell a combat veteran who disagrees with Guantanamo Bay needing to be closed? Or would you just let that one go. A few weeks ago I was on a bus and having a nice chat with an older gentleman who was in the Army and had been in a lot of combat. He saw my USMC jacket and just made some small talk about military stuff until these 2 young kids sat down near us with a bunch of signs such as "CLOSE GUANTANAMO" among other ones related to that. Him and these kids started arguing and I just kept my mouth shut. He basically told me that those kids have no idea the atrocities that those people commit and that they deserve what they get in Gitmo. I didn't even know what to say to the guy so I just politely nodded to whatever he was saying. What would you tell someone who thinks it should be open? Well, on a basic level, the opinions of veterans on the feasibility and propriety of a decentralized enemy combatant prison are not any more important than any other citizens. What about this mans veteran status makes him any more able to judge the relative guilt of those imprisoned in Gitmo than anyone else? In fact, veterans with combat experience are likely some of the most biased and least objective on the matter; that man pronounced guilty an entire prison camp, one full of tales of innocence and wrongful capture. And @ Zandar, I was more referencing the number of Europeans posting on TL rather than the entire population of the continent. I only mentioned that he was a combat veteran to highlight where his apparent bias stems from, not to suggest it gives him more credibility. Well, I think it can be demonstrated that Gitmo is unnecessary and wasteful, in addition to being a place full of wrongfully imprisoned men with beards who look like they might be dangerous. Don't get me wrong, there are and have been terrorists imprisoned there, but its distance from continental US soil and lack of easy oversight makes for a situation ripe for human rights abuses in the name of the war on terror.
Thank you, that's what I was lookin for. I just can't put my thoughts into words very well all of the time
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On May 01 2013 04:17 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 04:12 aksfjh wrote:On May 01 2013 04:05 farvacola wrote:
The only people at all stirred up by an association of Tsarnaev with welfare are the people who are already convinced that everyone on food stamps drives a Lexus while smoking cigarettes they purchased with said food stamps. I think the accusation is that they eat steaks and lobster bought with food stamps and welfare, then use their REAL income to buy cigarettes, alcohol, and cell phones (because poor people don't deserve any of those). But yea, $10k a year in welfare for 10 years for a 4 person household. Sounds like they were bankrolled big time by taxpayers. Haha, my mistake Sometimes I forget what sort of mental gymnastics those who blame the poor go through.
I hear it from my sister every month or so. The whole thing doesn't even stem from them living "better" than people not on government programs, but rather not worse enough. They look at their own lives and see how little they can afford, making choices between cable, cell phone data plans, internet, a newer car, and so on, and then they look at people that are "poorer" and they are making almost the same decisions. They aren't able to easily distinguish the differences between the 2 standards of living, so they assume those poor are being pampered by the government when it's much more likely that they, themselves, are being screwed by economic situation.
On May 01 2013 04:22 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 04:06 aksfjh wrote:On May 01 2013 03:53 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:44 kmillz wrote:On May 01 2013 03:32 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:24 Zandar wrote:
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering. Yeah I know As someone with a pronounced interest in general politics, I'm merely doing my best to substantiate the claim that US politics are worth knowing about. I try my best to add to European political threads, but I can only say so much, and sadly, those threads don't seem to stay bumped for long. So, Europeans, step yo game up WASHINGTON—President Obama said Tuesday that his administration would re-engage Congress on closing the U.S. military-run detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
"It needs to be closed," Obama said at a White House news conference marking the first 100 days of his second term. "I'm going to go back at this."
Obama's comments come amid reports that as many as 100 prisoners at Guantanamo are engaged in a hunger strike. Obama had vowed in his 2008 presidential campaign to close Guantanamo but failed to get it done in his first term.
"It' is not a surprise to me that we are having problems at Guantanamo," Obama said. Obama called Guantanamo unsafe and expensive and said it lessens cooperation with U.S. allies.
He noted that Congress has legislatively blocked him from closing Guantanamo but offered no solution to getting around that hurdle. Obama: We need to close Guantanamo Bay What do you tell a combat veteran who disagrees with Guantanamo Bay needing to be closed? Or would you just let that one go. A few weeks ago I was on a bus and having a nice chat with an older gentleman who was in the Army and had been in a lot of combat. He saw my USMC jacket and just made some small talk about military stuff until these 2 young kids sat down near us with a bunch of signs such as "CLOSE GUANTANAMO" among other ones related to that. Him and these kids started arguing and I just kept my mouth shut. He basically told me that those kids have no idea the atrocities that those people commit and that they deserve what they get in Gitmo. I didn't even know what to say to the guy so I just politely nodded to whatever he was saying. What would you tell someone who thinks it should be open? Well, on a basic level, the opinions of veterans on the feasibility and propriety of a decentralized enemy combatant prison are not any more important than any other citizens. What about this mans veteran status makes him any more able to judge the relative guilt of those imprisoned in Gitmo than anyone else? In fact, veterans with combat experience are likely some of the most biased and least objective on the matter; that man pronounced guilty an entire prison camp, one full of tales of innocence and wrongful capture. It's interesting. Some of the most dehumanizing statements I have heard about the people in the Middle East have been from those that have served over there. Outright racist statements and condemnation. I never hear some middle age woman refer to a Muslim as a sand******, but plenty from service members. The take-away is to not take their word with any greater weight than any other non-expert's opinion. They are trained for combat and combat related tasks. They are not trained to concern themselves with human rights or judge the innocence of people captured over there. Bad eggs in every group, it's a shame that a few racist veterans who represent the military make us all look like judgmental assholes. Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 04:05 farvacola wrote:The only people at all stirred up by an association of Tsarnaev with welfare are the people who are already convinced that everyone on food stamps drives a Lexus while smoking cigarettes they purchased with said food stamps. On May 01 2013 04:01 kmillz wrote:On May 01 2013 03:53 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:44 kmillz wrote:On May 01 2013 03:32 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:24 Zandar wrote:
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering. Yeah I know As someone with a pronounced interest in general politics, I'm merely doing my best to substantiate the claim that US politics are worth knowing about. I try my best to add to European political threads, but I can only say so much, and sadly, those threads don't seem to stay bumped for long. So, Europeans, step yo game up WASHINGTON—President Obama said Tuesday that his administration would re-engage Congress on closing the U.S. military-run detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
"It needs to be closed," Obama said at a White House news conference marking the first 100 days of his second term. "I'm going to go back at this."
Obama's comments come amid reports that as many as 100 prisoners at Guantanamo are engaged in a hunger strike. Obama had vowed in his 2008 presidential campaign to close Guantanamo but failed to get it done in his first term.
"It' is not a surprise to me that we are having problems at Guantanamo," Obama said. Obama called Guantanamo unsafe and expensive and said it lessens cooperation with U.S. allies.
He noted that Congress has legislatively blocked him from closing Guantanamo but offered no solution to getting around that hurdle. Obama: We need to close Guantanamo Bay What do you tell a combat veteran who disagrees with Guantanamo Bay needing to be closed? Or would you just let that one go. A few weeks ago I was on a bus and having a nice chat with an older gentleman who was in the Army and had been in a lot of combat. He saw my USMC jacket and just made some small talk about military stuff until these 2 young kids sat down near us with a bunch of signs such as "CLOSE GUANTANAMO" among other ones related to that. Him and these kids started arguing and I just kept my mouth shut. He basically told me that those kids have no idea the atrocities that those people commit and that they deserve what they get in Gitmo. I didn't even know what to say to the guy so I just politely nodded to whatever he was saying. What would you tell someone who thinks it should be open? Well, on a basic level, the opinions of veterans on the feasibility and propriety of a decentralized enemy combatant prison are not any more important than any other citizens. What about this mans veteran status makes him any more able to judge the relative guilt of those imprisoned in Gitmo than anyone else? In fact, veterans with combat experience are likely some of the most biased and least objective on the matter; that man pronounced guilty an entire prison camp, one full of tales of innocence and wrongful capture. And @ Zandar, I was more referencing the number of Europeans posting on TL rather than the entire population of the continent. I only mentioned that he was a combat veteran to highlight where his apparent bias stems from, not to suggest it gives him more credibility. Well, I think it can be demonstrated that Gitmo is unnecessary and wasteful, in addition to being a place full of wrongfully imprisoned men with beards who look like they might be dangerous. Don't get me wrong, there are and have been terrorists imprisoned there, but its distance from continental US soil and lack of easy oversight makes for a situation ripe for human rights abuses in the name of the war on terror. Thank you, that's what I was lookin for. I just can't put my thoughts into words very well all of the time
Don't get me wrong. I don't think even most service members are like that, but I do think they are put in a position where some of them have to justify their service through racism and hate. People are like that everywhere. My point was that they are human like the rest of us, and their service doesn't make them any more reliable on matters distantly related to their work than any of us. It's like asking an engineer at Intel what he thinks of the Foxconn factories in China.
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On May 01 2013 04:01 Danglars wrote:Obama promised to close Gitmo once, now he promises to do it again. This really seems like politics as usual. Military doesn't want captured terrorists (or combatants of some kind) either going free or for them to be housed in other facilities for lack or room or political ramifications for them to be in America, who knows which. I'd be seriously surprised if this was more than talk from Obama, and maybe form a commission or something to appease people wanting action. In other news, some new political consequences when we learn just how much the United States sponsored the Trsarnaev family while the two sons were planning a terrorist bombing. Show nested quote +The Tsarnaev family, including the suspected terrorists and their parents, benefited from more than $100,000 in taxpayer-funded assistance — a bonanza ranging from cash and food stamps to Section 8 housing from 2002 to 2012, the Herald has learned.
“The breadth of the benefits the family was receiving was stunning,” said a person with knowledge of documents handed over to a legislative committee today.
The state has handed over more than 500 documents to the 11-member House Post Audit and Oversight Committee, which today met for the first time and plans to call in officials from the Department of Transitional Assistance to testify.
“I can assure members of the public that this committee will actively review every single piece of information we can find because clearly the public has a substantial right to know what benefits, if any, this family or individuals accused of some horrific crimes were receiving,” said state Rep. David Linsky (D-Natick), the committee’s chairman.
Linsky’s committee has requested documents from the DTA, the state’s Medicaid director and Health and Human Services Secretary John Polanowicz. But so far the committee has not released the records publicly, citing a privilege the DTA is asserting under state law.
Transitional assistance officials also told the Herald tonight that the agency was conducting its own investigation into whether Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s family ever notified the DTA about his extended trip to Russia, and has since expanded its probe to include a full history of the benefits received by the entire Tsarnaev family. boston heraldThey were just another struggling family in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The forgotten poor, facing increasing income inequality and a high-unemployment economy. Tongue in cheek aside, they qualified for all these benefits where elsewhere in this thread it was talked about at length wealth inequality, income inequality, and welfare in the United States. I doubt any backlash will last even a month, but it's an interesting political angle that might stir up sympathy for welfare reform (or at least state welfare reform).
Well, first of all your article is too vague to be of any use. How many people from that family recieved that money? Does this include the uncles and aunts + their children, or only those two boys and their parents? You have to have an idea of how many were involved in order to understand if the 100,000 over ten years is reasonable. If it was the two boys, then even recieving 10 grand a year in benefits isn't really that much (although if that includes shit like student loans, since he was a med student, then it's a bullshit figure anyways). But if it's the two boys, their parents, two sets of aunts and uncles with children each, then that many people recieving 100,000 over ten years is not an unreasonable amount of money at all, and actually amounts to basically a pittance.
And I would of course argue that it makes sense to fund landed immigrants to some extent, particularly if you are trying to encourage skilled immigrants (this dude was in med school, wasn't he?). The issue that the government gave them funding isn't a problem because they were immigrants, it's a problem because they blew people up. It's an issue of FBI and police screening and survelliance, not one of "governments givin' money to dem foriners". 100000 sounds like a lot (and it is), but over 10 years its a lot fucking less.
So give some more real numbers and break them down into a per-year per-person rate, if you want to capitalize on a national tradgedy to stir up the nationalism/anti-foreigner/anti-poor sentiment. You gotta hate on someone, after all.
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On May 01 2013 03:44 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 03:32 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:24 Zandar wrote:
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering. Yeah I know As someone with a pronounced interest in general politics, I'm merely doing my best to substantiate the claim that US politics are worth knowing about. I try my best to add to European political threads, but I can only say so much, and sadly, those threads don't seem to stay bumped for long. So, Europeans, step yo game up WASHINGTON—President Obama said Tuesday that his administration would re-engage Congress on closing the U.S. military-run detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
"It needs to be closed," Obama said at a White House news conference marking the first 100 days of his second term. "I'm going to go back at this."
Obama's comments come amid reports that as many as 100 prisoners at Guantanamo are engaged in a hunger strike. Obama had vowed in his 2008 presidential campaign to close Guantanamo but failed to get it done in his first term.
"It' is not a surprise to me that we are having problems at Guantanamo," Obama said. Obama called Guantanamo unsafe and expensive and said it lessens cooperation with U.S. allies.
He noted that Congress has legislatively blocked him from closing Guantanamo but offered no solution to getting around that hurdle. Obama: We need to close Guantanamo Bay What do you tell a combat veteran who disagrees with Guantanamo Bay needing to be closed? Or would you just let that one go. A few weeks ago I was on a bus and having a nice chat with an older gentleman who was in the Army and had been in a lot of combat. He saw my USMC jacket and just made some small talk about military stuff until these 2 young kids sat down near us with a bunch of signs such as "CLOSE GUANTANAMO" among other ones related to that. Him and these kids started arguing and I just kept my mouth shut. He basically told me that those kids have no idea the atrocities that those people commit and that they deserve what they get in Gitmo. I didn't even know what to say to the guy so I just politely nodded to whatever he was saying. What would you tell someone who thinks it should be open?
Ask them if they think those atrocities give us any reason to lower our standards of justice.
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I don't think the 100k number includes the extended family, but there are 2 daughters in the family as well, so 100k over 10 years for 6 people.
I'm not sure what they got, but food stamps would be ~700 per month and housing is prolly another few hundred if they got that as well. Even if they didn't get those benefits all 10 years, you can see how they could have. I am also unsure if that total would include any tuition assistance for college.
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On May 01 2013 03:44 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 03:32 farvacola wrote:On May 01 2013 03:24 Zandar wrote:
I'm not attacking the reasoning btw. It's fine to me. I was just wondering. Yeah I know As someone with a pronounced interest in general politics, I'm merely doing my best to substantiate the claim that US politics are worth knowing about. I try my best to add to European political threads, but I can only say so much, and sadly, those threads don't seem to stay bumped for long. So, Europeans, step yo game up WASHINGTON—President Obama said Tuesday that his administration would re-engage Congress on closing the U.S. military-run detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
"It needs to be closed," Obama said at a White House news conference marking the first 100 days of his second term. "I'm going to go back at this."
Obama's comments come amid reports that as many as 100 prisoners at Guantanamo are engaged in a hunger strike. Obama had vowed in his 2008 presidential campaign to close Guantanamo but failed to get it done in his first term.
"It' is not a surprise to me that we are having problems at Guantanamo," Obama said. Obama called Guantanamo unsafe and expensive and said it lessens cooperation with U.S. allies.
He noted that Congress has legislatively blocked him from closing Guantanamo but offered no solution to getting around that hurdle. Obama: We need to close Guantanamo Bay What do you tell a combat veteran who disagrees with Guantanamo Bay needing to be closed? Or would you just let that one go. A few weeks ago I was on a bus and having a nice chat with an older gentleman who was in the Army and had been in a lot of combat. He saw my USMC jacket and just made some small talk about military stuff until these 2 young kids sat down near us with a bunch of signs such as "CLOSE GUANTANAMO" among other ones related to that. Him and these kids started arguing and I just kept my mouth shut. He basically told me that those kids have no idea the atrocities that those people commit and that they deserve what they get in Gitmo. I didn't even know what to say to the guy so I just politely nodded to whatever he was saying. What would you tell someone who thinks it should be open?
I think taliban warriors would say the same about American soldiers they take prisoner or execute. Veterans are extremely biased, and the fact that they fought in a war does not mean that they know any particulars about why certain people are held in prisons like Guantanamo.
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The only people at all stirred up by an association of Tsarnaev with welfare are the people who are already convinced that everyone on food stamps drives a Lexus while smoking cigarettes they purchased with said food stamps.
It isn't new for the left to criticize any attempt at welfare reform at starving the elderly, single parents, and children until they have to go door to door checking for the bodies of victims. This is as recent as sequestration being used as a political tool (ineffectively in a grand sense) to cherry pick the cuts for maximum political effect, flight delays and White House tours etc. It may end up a minor contribution of the family's stability, and a shock story in every sense. A government funding it's own terrorists with minimal checks and poor administration (DTA) is adding insult to injury.
Considering how much political invective of equal or less merit goes the other way, I could hardly characterize this as anti-poor and anti-immigrant.
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EPT
