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On May 22 2015 14:40 Simberto wrote:
And this is a perfect situation where this weird american dislike for unions becomes a problem, because this sounds like the classical type of problem a union could solve.
A large group of people (fast food workers) get exploited because on their own, they don't have any bargaining power. And they seem to be very aware of that situation. If all (or most) of these people would unionize, they could suddenly have a real negotiation with their corporations, because they can actually pressure them with (the threat of) a strike. A single worker just gets fired, but if most of your workers are on strike, the corporation has a problem and needs to deal with them.
There are a ton of problems with Unions here in there US relating to laws (Wagner, NLRB, Taft-Hartley) that really destroyed effective decentralized industry strikes. Unions are not actually beneficial for the workers for a myriad of reasons and workers are better off coming together themselves and having industry-wide demonstrations as you're seeing in the fast-food industry. I think strikes are an important part of the price discovery for labor for what it's worth.
http://c4ss.org/content/37218
Most of its points are on cue, though, without fixing the underlying mechanisms in place it's not really addressing the issue at hand. We could give workers a huge boost to bargaining power by eliminating artificial rents and barriers to market entry (regulatory, licensing, zoning, etc.). If more people could effectively be their own boss that would provide for more competition by employers for labor and in turn rise nominal wages. Just yelling 'LIVING WAGE!!!!' doesn't accomplish much.
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On May 22 2015 15:07 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 14:40 Simberto wrote:
And this is a perfect situation where this weird american dislike for unions becomes a problem, because this sounds like the classical type of problem a union could solve.
A large group of people (fast food workers) get exploited because on their own, they don't have any bargaining power. And they seem to be very aware of that situation. If all (or most) of these people would unionize, they could suddenly have a real negotiation with their corporations, because they can actually pressure them with (the threat of) a strike. A single worker just gets fired, but if most of your workers are on strike, the corporation has a problem and needs to deal with them. I don't know how your unions work, but the general aversion to them is justified here. In America, unions are not subject to antitrust so what has consistently happened is once they begin to unionize one company in a sector one or two unions(the UAW is a great example) often reach a critical mass, and end up crippling the entire industry, preventing startup competitors (both union competition and companies that compete with unionized shops) from flourishing, High profile unionization efforts often result in bullying tactics and deception (see VW in Tennessee)/ Smaller unions have often been bastions of local corruption as well. Most recently, unions have gone into the public sector and have caused massive financial problems for many a state/municipality. Plus they are very politically active, and many states have forced unionization leading to often 40%+ of workers resenting the union they belong to. Its overall a very bad legal framework.
I think they grew to powerful since they were needed badly when they 1st came into being in the US and started to pick up steam. Then once they gained more or less what they wanted they didn't want to give up power (and like you said corruption, which usually comes with power). A lot of this shit has led to people becoming adverse to unions and resenting them as public perception has shifted to them doing more harm then good (see examples like the stereotype that lazy/bad workers get protected) especially among public sector areas like Teacher and Police unions. Now this souring on unions by the public has led to efforts by politicians and businesses trying to go in the opposite direction as the see the opportunity to strike critical blows to the power that unions hold.
My opinion on unions has always been that they need to be there but at a more reasonable influence level.
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Err, so has anyone actually run the numbers on how living in minimum age looks like? I did it for 2 summers while in college and I was pretty okay.
So I made $8/hr working in a research lab, so times 40 hrs, 5 wks for $1600 a month.
My rent was $700, I paid for a three bedroom that was relatively close to my workplace (I walked and took the bus).
Food came out to about $200, I cooked mostly but had an occasional nicer meal with friends.
Tacking on a fairly generous $300 for incidental expenses, I had about $400 left which seemed okay.
I guess there's a few caveats like I didn't pay for car or any sort of insurance and that I live in a lower cost area (the south), but it seems that minimum wage does work. Again this is based on my experience, but I was hardly living paycheck to paycheck.
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Since when are there 5 weeks in a month?
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On May 22 2015 15:59 ticklishmusic wrote:
Err, so has anyone actually run the numbers on how living in minimum age looks like? I did it for 2 summers while in college and I was pretty okay.
So I made $8/hr working in a research lab, so times 40 hrs, 5 wks for $1600 a month.
My rent was $700, I paid for a three bedroom that was relatively close to my workplace (I walked and took the bus).
Food came out to about $200, I cooked mostly but had an occasional nicer meal with friends.
Tacking on a fairly generous $300 for incidental expenses, I had about $400 left which seemed okay.
I guess there's a few caveats like I didn't pay for car or any sort of insurance and that I live in a lower cost area (the south), but it seems that minimum wage does work. Again this is based on my experience, but I was hardly living paycheck to paycheck.
health insurance is another ~100 a month with gov't assistance. having car and auto insurance is also pricy. 200-300 a month leaves very room for error, medical bills, illness, etc etc.
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$700 3 bedroom house or apartment where and when lol? That's 25, 8 hour work days, in a month. That's basically 6 days a week.
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$700 rent for a 3bed, meaning I had 2 roommates. This was actually really a pretty decent apartment (I took it because it was within walking distance of the lab), you can go down to $400 pretty easily in some parts of town. The difference would be Id need a car to commute in that case.
My point is that unless you are living beyond your means, which unfortunately too many people do, minimum wage is fine in a pretty significant portion of the U.S. Off the top of my head you have exceptions like New York and other big cities where cost of living is significantly higher but those are the exception rather than the rule.
However you slice it, you have money at the end of the month if you play your cards right. It might not be much, but there is something there. I think we can more or less can agree on that point, but where it gets more controversial is I guess my belief is that minimum wage is a starting point-- no one should expect minimum wage to be somethig you make for more than a few years. If you can't make it higher than that, then frankly you either don't deserve to make more because you haven't been trying, or you have a truly crap life circumstance and that's why we have a social safety net (which is old and ratty and full of holes).
I went with the $1600 because that's how much I recall making a month. I guess I worked overtime?.[/QUOTE]
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On May 22 2015 17:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
$700 rent for a 3bed, meaning I had 2 roommates. This was actually really a pretty decent apartment (I took it because it was within walking distance of the lab), you can go down to $400 pretty easily in some parts of town. The difference would be Id need a car to commute in that case.
My point is that unless you are living beyond your means, which unfortunately too many people do, minimum wage is fine in a pretty significant portion of the U.S. Off the top of my head you have exceptions like New York and other big cities where cost of living is significantly higher but those are the exception rather than the rule.
I went with the $1600 because that's how much I recall making a month. I guess I worked overtime?.
Again, that's taking lack of payments on necessities (like transportation such as a car), and insurance (which is really expensive). Leaves very little room for accidents/illness
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owever you slice it, you have money at the end of the month if you play your cards right. It might not be much, but there is something there. I think we can more or less can agree on that point, but where it gets more controversial is I guess my belief is that minimum wage is a starting point-- no one should expect minimum wage to be somethig you make for more than a few years. If you can't make it higher than that, then frankly you either don't deserve to make more because you haven't been trying, or you have a truly crap life circumstance and that's why we have a social safety net (which is old and ratty and full of holes, etc.).
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On May 22 2015 17:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
$700 rent for a 3bed, meaning I had 2 roommates. This was actually really a pretty decent apartment (I took it because it was within walking distance of the lab), you can go down to $400 pretty easily in some parts of town. The difference would be Id need a car to commute in that case.
My point is that unless you are living beyond your means, which unfortunately too many people do, minimum wage is fine in a pretty significant portion of the U.S. Off the top of my head you have exceptions like New York and other big cities where cost of living is significantly higher but those are the exception rather than the rule.
I went with the $1600 because that's how much I recall making a month. I guess I worked overtime?.
Most living wages are based on the average family household, not college-age people who only need to pay their own bills.
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On May 22 2015 17:44 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 17:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
$700 rent for a 3bed, meaning I had 2 roommates. This was actually really a pretty decent apartment (I took it because it was within walking distance of the lab), you can go down to $400 pretty easily in some parts of town. The difference would be Id need a car to commute in that case.
My point is that unless you are living beyond your means, which unfortunately too many people do, minimum wage is fine in a pretty significant portion of the U.S. Off the top of my head you have exceptions like New York and other big cities where cost of living is significantly higher but those are the exception rather than the rule.
I went with the $1600 because that's how much I recall making a month. I guess I worked overtime?. Most living wages are based on the average family household, not college-age people who only need to pay their own bills.
Then don't make dumb life decisions like starting a family when you can't afford it. Don't do things you can't afford.
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The world is so simple isn't it?
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On May 22 2015 17:45 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 17:44 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 22 2015 17:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
$700 rent for a 3bed, meaning I had 2 roommates. This was actually really a pretty decent apartment (I took it because it was within walking distance of the lab), you can go down to $400 pretty easily in some parts of town. The difference would be Id need a car to commute in that case.
My point is that unless you are living beyond your means, which unfortunately too many people do, minimum wage is fine in a pretty significant portion of the U.S. Off the top of my head you have exceptions like New York and other big cities where cost of living is significantly higher but those are the exception rather than the rule.
I went with the $1600 because that's how much I recall making a month. I guess I worked overtime?. Most living wages are based on the average family household, not college-age people who only need to pay their own bills. Then don't make dumb life decisions like starting a family when you can't afford it. Don't do things you can't afford.
Also that amount made still requires gov't assistance to a certain extent, even living by yourself. Basic healthcare insurance plan would be comped around 100~200 dollars a month by the gov't, based on your pay.
Also there's very thin amount of savings while doing that. One bad economic down turn and you're fucked, cuz your savings ain't gunna last more than a couple months.
On May 22 2015 17:49 Velr wrote:
The world is so simple isn't it?
it is when you're only required to work during summer of college, lmao
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On May 22 2015 17:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
Then don't make dumb life decisions like starting a family when you can't afford it. Don't do things you can't afford.
Kids are fairly expensive, but growing old is the worst life decision possible. I certainly can't afford it. 
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On May 22 2015 17:41 ticklishmusic wrote:
but where it gets more controversial is I guess my belief is that minimum wage is a starting point-- no one should expect minimum wage to be somethig you make for more than a few years. If you can't make it higher than that, then frankly you either don't deserve to make more because you haven't been trying
i mean fuck this human dignity thing, be a good little cog!
(and compete with the others so their value goes down aswell, so that capitalists get even higher margins)
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On May 22 2015 17:50 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 17:45 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 22 2015 17:44 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 22 2015 17:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
$700 rent for a 3bed, meaning I had 2 roommates. This was actually really a pretty decent apartment (I took it because it was within walking distance of the lab), you can go down to $400 pretty easily in some parts of town. The difference would be Id need a car to commute in that case.
My point is that unless you are living beyond your means, which unfortunately too many people do, minimum wage is fine in a pretty significant portion of the U.S. Off the top of my head you have exceptions like New York and other big cities where cost of living is significantly higher but those are the exception rather than the rule.
I went with the $1600 because that's how much I recall making a month. I guess I worked overtime?. Most living wages are based on the average family household, not college-age people who only need to pay their own bills. Then don't make dumb life decisions like starting a family when you can't afford it. Don't do things you can't afford. Also that amount made still requires gov't assistance to a certain extent, even living by yourself. Basic healthcare insurance plan would be comped around 100~200 dollars a month by the gov't, based on your pay. Also there's very thin amount of savings while doing that. One bad economic down turn and you're fucked, cuz your savings ain't gunna last more than a couple months. it is when you're only required to work during summer of college, lmao
If anything, summer was much easier than college for me. I worked weekends and some evenings during the school year. Summer was easy, I just had to work and audit classes (because I couldn't afford the summer tuition).
I don't buy arguments that minimum wage somehow doesn't allow people to make a living. You have a roof over your head, food on the table, you can afford transportation and insurance and have a few bucks left at the end of the month. I freely admit the flaws in my calculation which was meant as a simplified example, but instead of tacking on additional costs it's quite possible to reduced rent and food expenses severely.
On May 22 2015 19:01 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 17:41 ticklishmusic wrote:
but where it gets more controversial is I guess my belief is that minimum wage is a starting point-- no one should expect minimum wage to be somethig you make for more than a few years. If you can't make it higher than that, then frankly you either don't deserve to make more because you haven't been trying i mean fuck this human dignity thing, be a good little cog! (and compete with the others so their value goes down aswell, so that capitalists get even higher margins)
Minimum wage shouldn't be some magical number on which you should be comfortable for your entire life. If anything, it should be treated as a minimum starting wage. I find it incredibly hard except in some real fringe circumstances (again, that's where social safety nets come in though you seem to have conveniently omitted that part) that you stay at minimum wage for a significant part of your career.
If anything, it's more an affront to human dignity (however the heck you're defining that) to slap an inflated arbitrary minimum value on labor in excess of a basic living wage. You're essentially forcing people to value various types of labor the same amount-- a burger flipper = a dude who waves a sign around outside = a social worker (or some other sort of more skilled laborer)? That seems ridiculous to me.
At the end of the day, I'm fine with minimum wage where it is in most places. Improving social safety nets is what's needed, not increasing hourly wages.
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On May 22 2015 20:26 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 17:50 wei2coolman wrote:On May 22 2015 17:45 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 22 2015 17:44 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 22 2015 17:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
$700 rent for a 3bed, meaning I had 2 roommates. This was actually really a pretty decent apartment (I took it because it was within walking distance of the lab), you can go down to $400 pretty easily in some parts of town. The difference would be Id need a car to commute in that case.
My point is that unless you are living beyond your means, which unfortunately too many people do, minimum wage is fine in a pretty significant portion of the U.S. Off the top of my head you have exceptions like New York and other big cities where cost of living is significantly higher but those are the exception rather than the rule.
I went with the $1600 because that's how much I recall making a month. I guess I worked overtime?. Most living wages are based on the average family household, not college-age people who only need to pay their own bills. Then don't make dumb life decisions like starting a family when you can't afford it. Don't do things you can't afford. Also that amount made still requires gov't assistance to a certain extent, even living by yourself. Basic healthcare insurance plan would be comped around 100~200 dollars a month by the gov't, based on your pay. Also there's very thin amount of savings while doing that. One bad economic down turn and you're fucked, cuz your savings ain't gunna last more than a couple months. On May 22 2015 17:49 Velr wrote:
The world is so simple isn't it?
it is when you're only required to work during summer of college, lmao If anything, summer was much easier than college for me. I worked weekends and some evenings during the school year. Summer was easy, I just had to work and audit classes (because I couldn't afford the summer tuition). Minimum wage shouldn't be some magical number on which you should be comfortable for your entire life. If anything, it should be treated as a minimum starting wage.
You still don't get it: your understanding of the world and the number of non minimum wage jobs (or those so close to it that they will be affected by increases aswell) do not align. There is not enough to do, or better: not enough motivation to create well paying jobs for all the people that want to survive. Scarcity of employment will never go away and bullshit minimum wage jobs will be the only thing left for the masses (where they compete in a race to the bottom with automation).
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On May 22 2015 20:36 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2015 20:26 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 22 2015 17:50 wei2coolman wrote:On May 22 2015 17:45 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 22 2015 17:44 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 22 2015 17:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
$700 rent for a 3bed, meaning I had 2 roommates. This was actually really a pretty decent apartment (I took it because it was within walking distance of the lab), you can go down to $400 pretty easily in some parts of town. The difference would be Id need a car to commute in that case.
My point is that unless you are living beyond your means, which unfortunately too many people do, minimum wage is fine in a pretty significant portion of the U.S. Off the top of my head you have exceptions like New York and other big cities where cost of living is significantly higher but those are the exception rather than the rule.
I went with the $1600 because that's how much I recall making a month. I guess I worked overtime?. Most living wages are based on the average family household, not college-age people who only need to pay their own bills. Then don't make dumb life decisions like starting a family when you can't afford it. Don't do things you can't afford. Also that amount made still requires gov't assistance to a certain extent, even living by yourself. Basic healthcare insurance plan would be comped around 100~200 dollars a month by the gov't, based on your pay. Also there's very thin amount of savings while doing that. One bad economic down turn and you're fucked, cuz your savings ain't gunna last more than a couple months. On May 22 2015 17:49 Velr wrote:
The world is so simple isn't it?
it is when you're only required to work during summer of college, lmao If anything, summer was much easier than college for me. I worked weekends and some evenings during the school year. Summer was easy, I just had to work and audit classes (because I couldn't afford the summer tuition). Minimum wage shouldn't be some magical number on which you should be comfortable for your entire life. If anything, it should be treated as a minimum starting wage. You still don't get it: your understanding of the world and the number of non minimum wage jobs (or those so close to it that they will be affected by increases aswell) do not align. There is not enough to do, or better: not enough motivation to create well paying jobs for all the people that want to survive. Scarcity of employment will never go away and bullshit minimum wage jobs will be the only thing left for the masses (where they compete in a race to the bottom with automation).
The "you don't get it" line is getting old as hell. Minimum wage is enough to live on.
There are well paying jobs, they just require more qualifications than they did in the boomer era because of automation, etc. That's just reality.
Increasing minimum wage is short sighted. It just creates a weird group of jobs that can't quite be automated yet that are paid too much. Or worse, it makes automation even more attractive from a cost angle. What's the next logical step after that?
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EPT
