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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On April 28 2015 07:38 Jaaaaasper wrote:
Ohh great now the rioting is getting serious in Baltimore. 7 cops reported injured, the O's game canceled, wide spread looting. And their goes any chance of getting any positive changes done.
Yup a bunch of mostly kids go out and cause trouble and some people get hurt and now the pea brained can't remember why they are out there in the first place and now we can't do anything about it and it's all those peoples fault. Give me a break!
They shouldn't have done what they did/are doing but that is in no way an acceptable reason for no positive changes. Even suggesting it is some sort of explanation or justification for nothing getting done is ridiculous.
As for the injuries that could be total bullshit.
I for one don't believe the police departments account of anything anymore, at least no more than any other random person.
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On April 28 2015 06:51 Bleak wrote:
As an outsider something puzzles me. Why are so many black people getting shot by the police? Surely not every single one of these events should necessitate deadly use of force?
Statistics are not perfect, and not all data reaches the federal level, but several hundred people are shot annually by police. America is a big country, with a medium level of violence, high violence in some places, and a LOT of guns. US gets around 15k murders annually. American civilians own more guns than all the world's armies combined.
Not every incident justifies lethal force, but many of them do. There are some serious issues with race and bias, generally less overt.
Does that help clear it up for you?
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“When you have an 11-year-old boy whose mother is single, or has a single father who’s working two or three jobs just to put food on the table, he has to wake up at 5:30 in the morning, catch public transportation to school,” T-Dubb-O said. “Everything around him is damnation. You can’t expect an 11-year-old to have the mental capacity of an adult, to say I’m going to make the mature decisions and not get into trouble. So I don’t care about black-on-black crime. I don’t care about the normal cliché of working hard, you can do anything, you can accomplish, because that’s bullshit. And excuse my language, but I can’t tell a little boy up the street in my neighborhood, where over a hundred murders happened last year, that he can be an astronaut if he wants to be, because that’s not possible.”
I mean, yes the cops should not be jackasses for ruining thousands, maybe millions of lives, but this destruction of property and attacking cops is just too far.
I am waiting for more self-righteous liberals to tell those they abandoned how to act in the face of an insane system.
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On April 28 2015 07:55 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +“When you have an 11-year-old boy whose mother is single, or has a single father who’s working two or three jobs just to put food on the table, he has to wake up at 5:30 in the morning, catch public transportation to school,” T-Dubb-O said. “Everything around him is damnation. You can’t expect an 11-year-old to have the mental capacity of an adult, to say I’m going to make the mature decisions and not get into trouble. So I don’t care about black-on-black crime. I don’t care about the normal cliché of working hard, you can do anything, you can accomplish, because that’s bullshit. And excuse my language, but I can’t tell a little boy up the street in my neighborhood, where over a hundred murders happened last year, that he can be an astronaut if he wants to be, because that’s not possible.” I mean, yes the cops should not be jackasses for ruining thousands, maybe millions of lives, but this destruction of property and attacking cops is just too far. I am waiting for more self-righteous liberals to tell those they abandoned how to act in the face of an insane system.
Is that some sort of sarcasm?
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On April 28 2015 08:01 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 07:55 Shiragaku wrote:“When you have an 11-year-old boy whose mother is single, or has a single father who’s working two or three jobs just to put food on the table, he has to wake up at 5:30 in the morning, catch public transportation to school,” T-Dubb-O said. “Everything around him is damnation. You can’t expect an 11-year-old to have the mental capacity of an adult, to say I’m going to make the mature decisions and not get into trouble. So I don’t care about black-on-black crime. I don’t care about the normal cliché of working hard, you can do anything, you can accomplish, because that’s bullshit. And excuse my language, but I can’t tell a little boy up the street in my neighborhood, where over a hundred murders happened last year, that he can be an astronaut if he wants to be, because that’s not possible.” I mean, yes the cops should not be jackasses for ruining thousands, maybe millions of lives, but this destruction of property and attacking cops is just too far. I am waiting for more self-righteous liberals to tell those they abandoned how to act in the face of an insane system. Is that some sort of sarcasm?
Well the quote is from here.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/rise_of_the_new_black_radicals_20150426
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On April 28 2015 07:30 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 05:57 zlefin wrote:
danglars -> I'm having trouble following what you're saying; but I can say that there is a racial issue in the results, that's found all over, and is not just a result of localized bad actors; and there's enough stats to back that up (several have been cited in the reports I listed). It also doesn't appear to be a result of direct racism, but of more complicated and subtle effects as a result of race; there's a lot of discretion in law enforcement, so the cumulative effect of many levels of mild implicit bias can really add up.
There is a racial issue in blacks killing other blacks at high numbers, well in excess of other publicized white-cops-on-blacks violence, and much ignored by media and racial activists. That's indeed a racial issue, and one that extends to cultural issues, societal issues, and political issues. We're in agreement in part! Will you enunciate your proposition for the actors and effects of some kind of stacking of levels of implicit racial bias? When you talk of subtle effects and mild implicit bias, I know looking at bulk statistics like arrest rates involve many complex phenomena like those I previously mentioned, which I hope you read. If this doesn't involve actual malice but some kind of suffused racial prejudice, how are we to know that its bases aren't simply in distinct propensity to crime in inner cities that happen to demographically contain one or more groups that constitute minorities in the state or locales? Was that arrest racially motivated or simply a police officer responding to a call and following the evidence? I hate to drag the dead horse of correlation and causation here, but have you actually considered it? I see all kinds of conclusions offered with results highlighted, but the causes are glazed over like racists are assumed and other explanations denied.
Did you see the statistics about how the growth in black incarceration per capita 1926->1986 was substantial compared to the growth in white incarceration over the same period?
Of course I've considered correlation vs causation issues, I'm very thorough about my reasoning.
As to the stacking effects, it's a reason I'm postulating, but am not sure about, and I'd like some experiments to be run to try to assess it. There's definitely a lot of research on implicit bias, so we just need to assess possible stacking effects.
To clarify what I mean by stacking effects, consider this scenario for the sake of argument: suppose a mild bias exists which causes a person deciding how to respond to a black offender to give that offender 10% more punishment. That is, when that one person makes their decision, their decisions are a little bit harsher on the black than on others. This could extend to not just what punishment they deem appropriate, but how they respond to and write down the situation.
So the officer on scene makes a judgment call about how to write up the incident, and what charges to recommend.
So the writeup for the black person would be a little harsher than for the white.
When that info reaches the prosecutor, he makes his decision about what charges to file in the scenario and how hard to press the case how much of a plea he'd be willing to accept, and he again adds 10%. He's working with the info he's given, and he's not being strongly biased, it's only 10%.
Then that info reaches the judge, who makes a sentencing decision based on the case he's presented with, and again he's only adding 10%. That is, given identical cases, the black would get 10% more punishment.
Each person's individual bias was only 10%, but the overall increase in punishment that was received was 30% (or slightly higher if you go multiplicative instead of additive). Because there were several people in the chain of decision-making, each one relying in part on the reports of the previous one, the net effect of the bias was considerably stronger than the amount of bias in any individual person.
And of course, looking through the future, there can be further after effects; the parole board might add a bit by being less willing to grant parole; the probation officer might be a little harsher, more likely to write up a violation rather than warning. The employer might be a little less willing to hire, which increases the odds the offender commits another crime.
And if the offender gets in trouble again, their prior history carries a lot of weight, which could amplify the effect even further. It's not uncommon for people to get multiple arrests, so this chain and its amplifying effects could get quite big after going through a few times.
So no individual is exhibiting much bias, but the cumulative effects of a small bias can add up over time.
Again, this is just a hypothesis and a case presented for the purpose of argument to demonstrate.
Is this sufficiently clear?
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The guard has been activated and will be deployed. Go home people...
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I like how this clown councilman just basically called for vigilantism.
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Well this is going to end in a nightmare. Everyone brace yourself for some amazing police work here.
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I think this is working out very different than people imagined. I am glad parts of the community are trying to do what needs to be done.
Makes me happy Shep is filling Bill-O's hour. Viewers are hearing stuff they would never hear otherwise.
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National Guard is being called in, and it sounds like it still getting uglier. Multiple people arrested for beating up a homeless man, because hes clearly part of the problem. What a disgusting day from baltimore.
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There were some photos of armored vehicles traveling down the highway on trailers. National guard are not police. Hopefully this ends quickly.
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On April 28 2015 09:55 Plansix wrote:
There were some photos of armored vehicles traveling down the highway on trailers. National guard are not police. Hopefully this ends quickly.
Yeah if the national guard is getting called in its reallllly ugly. I hope this settles the situation before it gets worse.
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I like how the governor threw the mayor under the bus during his press conference.
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On April 28 2015 10:23 xDaunt wrote:
I like how the governor threw the mayor under the bus during his press conference.
You mean politics happened, and you enjoyed it?
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Its funny, it was like straight out of The Good Wife. Plus, it wasn't so much throwing her under the bus as stating facts. Not every town's mayor is going to be Booker or Bloomberg.
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It doesn't make your race look any better when this gives you an excuse to loot and destroy. The irony, people are so blind and this will never change. You might as well bring back the high-powered hoses because every time some kind of large demonstration happens either be during the 90s in LA or Ferguson, it will be the same. More looting, destruction and physical violence.
What a joke.
edit: Society for these folks are going backwards because the negative actions override the positive. American Bureaucracy is already broken and they are basically adding fuel to the fire. Call in the National Guard so they get extra pay to end this shithole so everyone can resume their livelihoods.
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"And I contend that the cry of "black power" is, at bottom, a reaction to the reluctance of white power to make the kind of changes necessary to make justice a reality for the Negro. I think that we've got to see that a riot is the language of the unheard. And, what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the economic plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years." -Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Violence and riots are negative and destructive, yes, but do not EVER equate the days of rioting with the CENTURIES of discrimination, oppression, dehumanization and exploitation that Black Americans (and other marginalized groups) have experienced.
If you focus on the riots and not on the injustice, you are being racist.
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Do the people talking about the situation in Baltimore even know what the case is that set off the protests originally? Obviously not danglers but anyone else?
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On April 28 2015 12:04 YoureFired wrote:
"And I contend that the cry of "black power" is, at bottom, a reaction to the reluctance of white power to make the kind of changes necessary to make justice a reality for the Negro. I think that we've got to see that a riot is the language of the unheard. And, what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the economic plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years." -Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Violence and riots are negative and destructive, yes, but do not EVER equate the days of rioting with the CENTURIES of discrimination, oppression, dehumanization and exploitation that Black Americans (and other marginalized groups) have experienced.
If you focus on the riots and not on the injustice, you are being racist.
The attitude expressed here is precisely why so many Americans are not interested in engaging all of the condescending masturacebators out there.
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EPT
