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On April 27 2015 12:08 zlefin wrote: Millitron -> crime rates differences are existent and moderate, it's the incarceration rate differences (6:1 or so) that are problematic.
I couldn't find any data that corrected for economic and other factors, but I only looked through a page of google searches.
Ok? Like I said, that's still caused by socioeconomics. The implicit bias exists because it was inspired by those differences caused by socioeconomics.
In the 15 counties with the highest median household incomes in the United States, Blacks are two to eight times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. In Arlington, VA, for example, where the median household income is $94,880, Blacks are almost eight times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites. In Delaware, OH (north of Columbus), where the median household income is just under $88,000, Blacks are arrested at almost six times the rate of whites. In Howard, Calvert, and Charles Counties in Maryland, the median household income is between $88,825 and $103,273, and the Black marijuana possession arrest rate is a stunning 837 per 100,000 (compared to the national rate of 253 per 100,000). In Fairfax and Loudoun, VA, where the median household incomes are both over $100,000, Blacks are approximately three times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. In Nassau, NY (part of Long Island), the median household income is over $93,000 and Blacks are over 3.5 times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. See Figure 18.
Turning to the 15 counties with the lowest median household incomes, see Figure 20, in Scotland, NC, and Adams, MS, where the median household income is below $30,000, Blacks are almost five times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites. In Washington, LA ($27,797), and Dunklin, MO ($29,375), Blacks are four times more likely. In Dallas (includes Selma) and Pike, AL, both with median household incomes below $30,000 and white populations of 31% and 61%, respectively, the white arrest rate for marijuana possession was 0, while the Black arrest rate was 95 and 115, respectively. In Natchitoches, LA, and Oktibbeha, MS, the median household income is approximately $30,300, and the Black marijuana possession arrest rate is a staggering 1,201 per 100,000
If people think socioeconomics explains 3,4,8,10:1 ratios, when consumption rates are basically the same I just don't know what would convince you otherwise.
The justice system is racist, the fact that there are reasons it is racist is not an excuse to be racist. Being unintentionally racist/racially biased has essentially the same impact by and large.
I'm not going to argue that socioeconomics have zero impact but your reasoning is way past preposterous at this point.
In the worst offending counties across the country, Blacks were over 10, 15, even 30 times more likely to be arrested than white residents in the same county.
I'm all for getting rid of the War on Drugs. To be fair though, this data still doesn't compare the people. Even in overall-wealthy counties, there are going to be some poor areas. I'd like data actually comparing the wealth of the arrested people, not just the wealth of the neighborhoods they were arrested in. And really, I don't see why its so hard to get. I mean, I know its hard to find on Google, I mean I don't see why its so hard for some study to find. They run a background check on you as part of the booking process. Wouldn't that turn up your employment history? Or at least where you live and then the study could make an educated guess as to your wealth based on the price of the property.
critics like to frame their avoidance or distaste for the 'racist' label as a matter of accuracy, but this is too simple of a story.
accuracy in identifying the problem is important, particularly for a problem that is as highly charged as racism in the justice system. the way second order opinions form around the participants of the debate is often stronger than the substantive issue involving the incarcerated.
however, when someone is talking about racism in the justice system, some people would seize upon this way of framing the problem and dismiss the entire concern as 'race baiting' or 'identity politics' etc. nevermind that "racism" is itself vague enough to be legitimately referring to disparate impact rather than direct racism in prosecution (and the latter still exists).
teven if someone is mistaken in the choice of label with which to describe the prejudice, (a direct racism), the underlying causal factors (social conditions, economic class) are strongly correlated and also has roots in racial problems. the disproportionately incarcerated racial group is also rather reasonable or at least expected by normal human behavior, to adopt identity politics framing of the issues.
the most distracting element in the racism in society debate is currently not the very minor voice of 'black nationalism' etc. it's really a disproportionately harsh and absolute rejection of a very real social problem just because of certain word choices. this kind of reaction is all too common and betrays an underlying unwillingness to ;confront the problem in a constructive and fundamental way.
people's perception and framing of problems that intimately connect to their lives will produce unique and personal language about the problems. if a black person thinks the ghetto life is a part of institutional racism, i see this as a valuable and respectable position in the debate. it is after all the first hand account of the experience of the afflicted. failure to respect the content of the other's experience is a clear facet of modern racial denial.
tl;dr the discussion of whether 'it's really racism' is worth jack shit to actual affected people.
On April 28 2015 00:34 oneofthem wrote: critics like to frame their avoidance or distaste for the 'racist' label as a matter of accuracy, but this is too simple of a story.
accuracy in identifying the problem is important, particularly for a problem that is as highly charged as racism in the justice system. the way second order opinions form around the participants of the debate is often stronger than the substantive issue involving the incarcerated.
however, when someone is talking about racism in the justice system, some people would seize upon this way of framing the problem and dismiss the entire concern as 'race baiting' or 'identity politics' etc. nevermind that "racism" is itself vague enough to be legitimately referring to disparate impact rather than direct racism in prosecution (and the latter still exists).
teven if someone is mistaken in the choice of label with which to describe the prejudice, (a direct racism), the underlying causal factors (social conditions, economic class) are strongly correlated and also has roots in racial problems. the disproportionately incarcerated racial group is also rather reasonable or at least expected by normal human behavior, to adopt identity politics framing of the issues.
the most distracting element in the racism in society debate is currently not the very minor voice of 'black nationalism' etc. it's really a disproportionately harsh and absolute rejection of a very real social problem just because of certain word choices. this kind of reaction is all too common and betrays an underlying unwillingness to ;confront the problem in a constructive and fundamental way.
people's perception and framing of problems that intimately connect to their lives will produce unique and personal language about the problems. if a black person thinks the ghetto life is a part of institutional racism, i see this as a valuable and respectable position in the debate. it is after all the first hand account of the experience of the afflicted. failure to respect the content of the other's experience is a clear facet of modern racial denial.
tl;dr the discussion of whether 'it's really racism' is worth jack shit to actual affected people.
but who cares about the actual affected people? have you not seen how brown they are? errrr - i mean how they clearly make unresponsible choices in their lives and therefore deserve everything that happens to them.
On April 28 2015 00:34 oneofthem wrote: critics like to frame their avoidance or distaste for the 'racist' label as a matter of accuracy, but this is too simple of a story.
accuracy in identifying the problem is important, particularly for a problem that is as highly charged as racism in the justice system. the way second order opinions form around the participants of the debate is often stronger than the substantive issue involving the incarcerated.
however, when someone is talking about racism in the justice system, some people would seize upon this way of framing the problem and dismiss the entire concern as 'race baiting' or 'identity politics' etc. nevermind that "racism" is itself vague enough to be legitimately referring to disparate impact rather than direct racism in prosecution (and the latter still exists).
teven if someone is mistaken in the choice of label with which to describe the prejudice, (a direct racism), the underlying causal factors (social conditions, economic class) are strongly correlated and also has roots in racial problems. the disproportionately incarcerated racial group is also rather reasonable or at least expected by normal human behavior, to adopt identity politics framing of the issues.
the most distracting element in the racism in society debate is currently not the very minor voice of 'black nationalism' etc. it's really a disproportionately harsh and absolute rejection of a very real social problem just because of certain word choices. this kind of reaction is all too common and betrays an underlying unwillingness to ;confront the problem in a constructive and fundamental way.
people's perception and framing of problems that intimately connect to their lives will produce unique and personal language about the problems. if a black person thinks the ghetto life is a part of institutional racism, i see this as a valuable and respectable position in the debate. it is after all the first hand account of the experience of the afflicted. failure to respect the content of the other's experience is a clear facet of modern racial denial.
tl;dr the discussion of whether 'it's really racism' is worth jack shit to actual affected people.
First hand accounts aren't all that valuable when it comes to the truth. They're often clouded by emotion. They're far from objective.
On April 28 2015 00:34 oneofthem wrote: critics like to frame their avoidance or distaste for the 'racist' label as a matter of accuracy, but this is too simple of a story.
accuracy in identifying the problem is important, particularly for a problem that is as highly charged as racism in the justice system. the way second order opinions form around the participants of the debate is often stronger than the substantive issue involving the incarcerated.
however, when someone is talking about racism in the justice system, some people would seize upon this way of framing the problem and dismiss the entire concern as 'race baiting' or 'identity politics' etc. nevermind that "racism" is itself vague enough to be legitimately referring to disparate impact rather than direct racism in prosecution (and the latter still exists).
teven if someone is mistaken in the choice of label with which to describe the prejudice, (a direct racism), the underlying causal factors (social conditions, economic class) are strongly correlated and also has roots in racial problems. the disproportionately incarcerated racial group is also rather reasonable or at least expected by normal human behavior, to adopt identity politics framing of the issues.
the most distracting element in the racism in society debate is currently not the very minor voice of 'black nationalism' etc. it's really a disproportionately harsh and absolute rejection of a very real social problem just because of certain word choices. this kind of reaction is all too common and betrays an underlying unwillingness to ;confront the problem in a constructive and fundamental way.
people's perception and framing of problems that intimately connect to their lives will produce unique and personal language about the problems. if a black person thinks the ghetto life is a part of institutional racism, i see this as a valuable and respectable position in the debate. it is after all the first hand account of the experience of the afflicted. failure to respect the content of the other's experience is a clear facet of modern racial denial.
tl;dr the discussion of whether 'it's really racism' is worth jack shit to actual affected people.
First hand accounts aren't all that valuable when it comes to the truth. They're often clouded by emotion. They're far from objective.
Racism is an emotional topic. Trying to separate emotion from it by disregarding first-hand accounts from people actually affected by racism is convenient but also misses the point entirely. Obviously you want to identify instances where examples of racism are embellished or outright lied about, but first-hand accounts are still the best way for people like me (a white, heterosexual male) to learn anything about what others experience.
On April 27 2015 12:08 zlefin wrote: Millitron -> crime rates differences are existent and moderate, it's the incarceration rate differences (6:1 or so) that are problematic.
I couldn't find any data that corrected for economic and other factors, but I only looked through a page of google searches.
Ok? Like I said, that's still caused by socioeconomics. The implicit bias exists because it was inspired by those differences caused by socioeconomics.
This is a bit closer to what you are looking for
In the 15 counties with the highest median household incomes in the United States, Blacks are two to eight times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. In Arlington, VA, for example, where the median household income is $94,880, Blacks are almost eight times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites. In Delaware, OH (north of Columbus), where the median household income is just under $88,000, Blacks are arrested at almost six times the rate of whites. In Howard, Calvert, and Charles Counties in Maryland, the median household income is between $88,825 and $103,273, and the Black marijuana possession arrest rate is a stunning 837 per 100,000 (compared to the national rate of 253 per 100,000). In Fairfax and Loudoun, VA, where the median household incomes are both over $100,000, Blacks are approximately three times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. In Nassau, NY (part of Long Island), the median household income is over $93,000 and Blacks are over 3.5 times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. See Figure 18.
Turning to the 15 counties with the lowest median household incomes, see Figure 20, in Scotland, NC, and Adams, MS, where the median household income is below $30,000, Blacks are almost five times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites. In Washington, LA ($27,797), and Dunklin, MO ($29,375), Blacks are four times more likely. In Dallas (includes Selma) and Pike, AL, both with median household incomes below $30,000 and white populations of 31% and 61%, respectively, the white arrest rate for marijuana possession was 0, while the Black arrest rate was 95 and 115, respectively. In Natchitoches, LA, and Oktibbeha, MS, the median household income is approximately $30,300, and the Black marijuana possession arrest rate is a staggering 1,201 per 100,000
If people think socioeconomics explains 3,4,8,10:1 ratios, when consumption rates are basically the same I just don't know what would convince you otherwise.
The justice system is racist, the fact that there are reasons it is racist is not an excuse to be racist. Being unintentionally racist/racially biased has essentially the same impact by and large.
I'm not going to argue that socioeconomics have zero impact but your reasoning is way past preposterous at this point.
In the worst offending counties across the country, Blacks were over 10, 15, even 30 times more likely to be arrested than white residents in the same county.
I'm all for getting rid of the War on Drugs. To be fair though, this data still doesn't compare the people. Even in overall-wealthy counties, there are going to be some poor areas. I'd like data actually comparing the wealth of the arrested people, not just the wealth of the neighborhoods they were arrested in. And really, I don't see why its so hard to get. I mean, I know its hard to find on Google, I mean I don't see why its so hard for some study to find. They run a background check on you as part of the booking process. Wouldn't that turn up your employment history? Or at least where you live and then the study could make an educated guess as to your wealth based on the price of the property.
Umm...
As you can see even when everyone in the neighborhood is lower income it's still blacks consistently getting arrested more.
It's not just socioeconomic. Whether you find data that satisfies your requirements or not is irrelevant.
Sounds like the fire-fighter version of the Hunger Games, is this still legal and practised?
It's not all bad, I had a friend who had a fuckup addict, thieving brother who went through a program like that and it helped him straighten his life out. Of course that's a particular person and he had transitioned his addiction into body building long before he was able to qualify for the program in the first place.
That being said it is fucked when you realize many people shouldn't have been arrested and imprisoned in the first place. If people were confident prisons were full of real criminals and not people possessing or doing the logistics for substances, or trumped up bullshit charges from lying officers and such, I think it would seem less barbaric. Prisoners are supposed to be repaying a debt to society instead they currently cost upwards of $20-30k per inmate. At those prices I only want real criminals in prison, I don't give a shit if someone has a kilo of coke or a 10 lbs of pot I don't want to pay that kind of money to lock them up. It just isn't worth it no matter how you crunch the numbers.
This came up elsewhere but seems relevant, using inmates to fight fires is still a lot better than stuff like this where desperate inmates compete to strip a poker chip off an angry bulls head for up to $500 (as opposed to the typical ~$0.02/hr they can make in prison for the entertainment of some sick people.
The host has graphics on police forces highlighted by WaPo that are highly demographically mismatched with the communities they served. Giuliani wondered why the attention was there and not the 93% of blacks killed by other blacks. It's the reason, in his mind, of the heavy police presence in poor, black communities (and maybe you can extrapolate a background arrest disparity from that alone). Layer that on the population percentages in the inner city. Is this really still police force racism everywhere, or maybe a few bad apples spread across the US? (Anybody got the breakdowns for violent crimes/burglaries vs missing child support payments ala the arrest that the victim in Baltimore Riots feared? We have covered cultural considerations time and time again without tying that in.)
The focus ought not to be on this purportedly easy fix for subconscious racism, or the "[institutionalized] racism in the us justice system", as is bandied about. You can, if you want, pressure guys like Jayme that have arrest records minority tilted, since "this simple numbers issue is why, for the most part, I have ended up arresting a "disproportionate" amount of minorities compared to white people." I don't know if labeling him part of the racist police problem BECAUSE of his racially dissected arrest record will net satisfaction for this thread's liberals.
Sounds like the fire-fighter version of the Hunger Games, is this still legal and being practised?
Its voluntary, and the prisoners really like the program because its more fun and pays more than regular prison jobs.
Come on, they are desperate to get out of prison and/or afford some basic shit. Of course they like it better than getting payed pennies to fold underwear or whatever... It's still pretty fucked as it is working currently.
The host has graphics on police forces highlighted by WaPo that are highly demographically mismatched with the communities they served. Giuliani wondered why the attention was there and not the 93% of blacks killed by other blacks. It's the reason, in his mind, of the heavy police presence in poor, black communities (and maybe you can extrapolate a background arrest disparity from that alone). Layer that on the population percentages in the inner city. Is this really still police force racism everywhere, or maybe a few bad apples spread across the US? (Anybody got the breakdowns for violent crimes/burglaries vs missing child support payments ala the arrest that the victim in Baltimore Riots feared? We have covered cultural considerations time and time again without tying that in.)
The focus ought not to be on this purportedly easy fix for subconscious racism, or the "[institutionalized] racism in the us justice system", as is bandied about. You can, if you want, pressure guys like Jayme that have arrest records minority tilted, since "this simple numbers issue is why, for the most part, I have ended up arresting a "disproportionate" amount of minorities compared to white people." I don't know if labeling him part of the racist police problem BECAUSE of his racially dissected arrest record will net satisfaction for this thread's liberals.
Sounds like the fire-fighter version of the Hunger Games, is this still legal and being practised?
Its voluntary, and the prisoners really like the program because its more fun and pays more than regular prison jobs.
Come on, they are desperate to get out of prison and/or afford some basic shit. Of course they like it better than getting payed pennies to fold underwear or whatever... It's still pretty fucked as it is working currently.
The host has graphics on police forces highlighted by WaPo that are highly demographically mismatched with the communities they served. Giuliani wondered why the attention was there and not the 93% of blacks killed by other blacks. It's the reason, in his mind, of the heavy police presence in poor, black communities (and maybe you can extrapolate a background arrest disparity from that alone). Layer that on the population percentages in the inner city. Is this really still police force racism everywhere, or maybe a few bad apples spread across the US? (Anybody got the breakdowns for violent crimes/burglaries vs missing child support payments ala the arrest that the victim in Baltimore Riots feared? We have covered cultural considerations time and time again without tying that in.)
The focus ought not to be on this purportedly easy fix for subconscious racism, or the "[institutionalized] racism in the us justice system", as is bandied about. You can, if you want, pressure guys like Jayme that have arrest records minority tilted, since "this simple numbers issue is why, for the most part, I have ended up arresting a "disproportionate" amount of minorities compared to white people." I don't know if labeling him part of the racist police problem BECAUSE of his racially dissected arrest record will net satisfaction for this thread's liberals.
Totally fucking clueless...Just stop please.
Well, its bad that many of them are in prison to begin with. But assuming they are there, the program is a good one.
Sounds like the fire-fighter version of the Hunger Games, is this still legal and being practised?
Its voluntary, and the prisoners really like the program because its more fun and pays more than regular prison jobs.
Come on, they are desperate to get out of prison and/or afford some basic shit. Of course they like it better than getting payed pennies to fold underwear or whatever... It's still pretty fucked as it is working currently.
The host has graphics on police forces highlighted by WaPo that are highly demographically mismatched with the communities they served. Giuliani wondered why the attention was there and not the 93% of blacks killed by other blacks. It's the reason, in his mind, of the heavy police presence in poor, black communities (and maybe you can extrapolate a background arrest disparity from that alone). Layer that on the population percentages in the inner city. Is this really still police force racism everywhere, or maybe a few bad apples spread across the US? (Anybody got the breakdowns for violent crimes/burglaries vs missing child support payments ala the arrest that the victim in Baltimore Riots feared? We have covered cultural considerations time and time again without tying that in.)
The focus ought not to be on this purportedly easy fix for subconscious racism, or the "[institutionalized] racism in the us justice system", as is bandied about. You can, if you want, pressure guys like Jayme that have arrest records minority tilted, since "this simple numbers issue is why, for the most part, I have ended up arresting a "disproportionate" amount of minorities compared to white people." I don't know if labeling him part of the racist police problem BECAUSE of his racially dissected arrest record will net satisfaction for this thread's liberals.
Totally fucking clueless...Just stop please.
Well, its bad that many of them are in prison to begin with. But assuming they are there, the program is a good one.
It's like talking about how sharecropping is much better than slavery. I mean they were slaves anyway... As if the real crime/tragedy isn't that they are there in the first place. 0 responsibility is taken for what the system (or many of the individuals in the system) is doing wrong and that's bullshit.
danglars -> I'm having trouble following what you're saying; but I can say that there is a racial issue in the results, that's found all over, and is not just a result of localized bad actors; and there's enough stats to back that up (several have been cited in the reports I listed). It also doesn't appear to be a result of direct racism, but of more complicated and subtle effects as a result of race; there's a lot of discretion in law enforcement, so the cumulative effect of many levels of mild implicit bias can really add up.
On April 27 2015 12:08 zlefin wrote: Millitron -> crime rates differences are existent and moderate, it's the incarceration rate differences (6:1 or so) that are problematic.
I couldn't find any data that corrected for economic and other factors, but I only looked through a page of google searches.
Ok? Like I said, that's still caused by socioeconomics. The implicit bias exists because it was inspired by those differences caused by socioeconomics.
This is a bit closer to what you are looking for
In the 15 counties with the highest median household incomes in the United States, Blacks are two to eight times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. In Arlington, VA, for example, where the median household income is $94,880, Blacks are almost eight times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites. In Delaware, OH (north of Columbus), where the median household income is just under $88,000, Blacks are arrested at almost six times the rate of whites. In Howard, Calvert, and Charles Counties in Maryland, the median household income is between $88,825 and $103,273, and the Black marijuana possession arrest rate is a stunning 837 per 100,000 (compared to the national rate of 253 per 100,000). In Fairfax and Loudoun, VA, where the median household incomes are both over $100,000, Blacks are approximately three times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. In Nassau, NY (part of Long Island), the median household income is over $93,000 and Blacks are over 3.5 times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. See Figure 18.
Turning to the 15 counties with the lowest median household incomes, see Figure 20, in Scotland, NC, and Adams, MS, where the median household income is below $30,000, Blacks are almost five times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites. In Washington, LA ($27,797), and Dunklin, MO ($29,375), Blacks are four times more likely. In Dallas (includes Selma) and Pike, AL, both with median household incomes below $30,000 and white populations of 31% and 61%, respectively, the white arrest rate for marijuana possession was 0, while the Black arrest rate was 95 and 115, respectively. In Natchitoches, LA, and Oktibbeha, MS, the median household income is approximately $30,300, and the Black marijuana possession arrest rate is a staggering 1,201 per 100,000
If people think socioeconomics explains 3,4,8,10:1 ratios, when consumption rates are basically the same I just don't know what would convince you otherwise.
The justice system is racist, the fact that there are reasons it is racist is not an excuse to be racist. Being unintentionally racist/racially biased has essentially the same impact by and large.
I'm not going to argue that socioeconomics have zero impact but your reasoning is way past preposterous at this point.
In the worst offending counties across the country, Blacks were over 10, 15, even 30 times more likely to be arrested than white residents in the same county.
I'm all for getting rid of the War on Drugs. To be fair though, this data still doesn't compare the people. Even in overall-wealthy counties, there are going to be some poor areas. I'd like data actually comparing the wealth of the arrested people, not just the wealth of the neighborhoods they were arrested in. And really, I don't see why its so hard to get. I mean, I know its hard to find on Google, I mean I don't see why its so hard for some study to find. They run a background check on you as part of the booking process. Wouldn't that turn up your employment history? Or at least where you live and then the study could make an educated guess as to your wealth based on the price of the property.
Umm...
As you can see even when everyone in the neighborhood is lower income it's still blacks consistently getting arrested more.
It's not just socioeconomic. Whether you find data that satisfies your requirements or not is irrelevant.
Median income does not compare the wealth of the arrested. I live in a pretty small town. We are mostly middle class, but there's a trailer park that's dirt poor. Likewise, we also have a small area that's packed with multi-millionaires. A comparison based on median income of the county considers people from both groups to be just as wealthy, when they really aren't.
Sounds like the fire-fighter version of the Hunger Games, is this still legal and being practised?
Its voluntary, and the prisoners really like the program because its more fun and pays more than regular prison jobs.
Come on, they are desperate to get out of prison and/or afford some basic shit. Of course they like it better than getting payed pennies to fold underwear or whatever... It's still pretty fucked as it is working currently.
The host has graphics on police forces highlighted by WaPo that are highly demographically mismatched with the communities they served. Giuliani wondered why the attention was there and not the 93% of blacks killed by other blacks. It's the reason, in his mind, of the heavy police presence in poor, black communities (and maybe you can extrapolate a background arrest disparity from that alone). Layer that on the population percentages in the inner city. Is this really still police force racism everywhere, or maybe a few bad apples spread across the US? (Anybody got the breakdowns for violent crimes/burglaries vs missing child support payments ala the arrest that the victim in Baltimore Riots feared? We have covered cultural considerations time and time again without tying that in.)
The focus ought not to be on this purportedly easy fix for subconscious racism, or the "[institutionalized] racism in the us justice system", as is bandied about. You can, if you want, pressure guys like Jayme that have arrest records minority tilted, since "this simple numbers issue is why, for the most part, I have ended up arresting a "disproportionate" amount of minorities compared to white people." I don't know if labeling him part of the racist police problem BECAUSE of his racially dissected arrest record will net satisfaction for this thread's liberals.
Totally fucking clueless...Just stop please.
Well, its bad that many of them are in prison to begin with. But assuming they are there, the program is a good one.
If they'd be paid something comparable to what an actual fire-fighter makes. At least at the time of the article they made one dollar an hour, which practically means they work for nothing.
How it is they're using a giant prison population to do dangerous jobs for nearly no compensation so that they can buy themselves out of their situation.... That actually sounds like a "deal" a lot of slaves got.
Sounds like the fire-fighter version of the Hunger Games, is this still legal and being practised?
Its voluntary, and the prisoners really like the program because its more fun and pays more than regular prison jobs.
Come on, they are desperate to get out of prison and/or afford some basic shit. Of course they like it better than getting payed pennies to fold underwear or whatever... It's still pretty fucked as it is working currently.
The host has graphics on police forces highlighted by WaPo that are highly demographically mismatched with the communities they served. Giuliani wondered why the attention was there and not the 93% of blacks killed by other blacks. It's the reason, in his mind, of the heavy police presence in poor, black communities (and maybe you can extrapolate a background arrest disparity from that alone). Layer that on the population percentages in the inner city. Is this really still police force racism everywhere, or maybe a few bad apples spread across the US? (Anybody got the breakdowns for violent crimes/burglaries vs missing child support payments ala the arrest that the victim in Baltimore Riots feared? We have covered cultural considerations time and time again without tying that in.)
The focus ought not to be on this purportedly easy fix for subconscious racism, or the "[institutionalized] racism in the us justice system", as is bandied about. You can, if you want, pressure guys like Jayme that have arrest records minority tilted, since "this simple numbers issue is why, for the most part, I have ended up arresting a "disproportionate" amount of minorities compared to white people." I don't know if labeling him part of the racist police problem BECAUSE of his racially dissected arrest record will net satisfaction for this thread's liberals.
Totally fucking clueless...Just stop please.
Well, its bad that many of them are in prison to begin with. But assuming they are there, the program is a good one.
If they'd be paid something comparable to what an actual fire-fighter makes. At least at the time of the article they made one dollar an hour, which practically means they work for nothing.
How it is they're using a giant prison population to do dangerous jobs for nearly no compensation so that they can buy themselves out of their situation.... That actually sounds like a deal a lot of slaves got.
That sounds fine with me, granted that the prison population comprises people who deserve to be in prison. You 2 need to compartmentalize this. That many of the prisoners who participate in the program would not be in prison in a just system does not mean a program within that unjust system is also bad.
Unless you have evidence that California is trying to get more prisoners for the firefighting program, then I retract that statement.
On April 27 2015 12:08 zlefin wrote: Millitron -> crime rates differences are existent and moderate, it's the incarceration rate differences (6:1 or so) that are problematic.
I couldn't find any data that corrected for economic and other factors, but I only looked through a page of google searches.
Ok? Like I said, that's still caused by socioeconomics. The implicit bias exists because it was inspired by those differences caused by socioeconomics.
This is a bit closer to what you are looking for
In the 15 counties with the highest median household incomes in the United States, Blacks are two to eight times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. In Arlington, VA, for example, where the median household income is $94,880, Blacks are almost eight times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites. In Delaware, OH (north of Columbus), where the median household income is just under $88,000, Blacks are arrested at almost six times the rate of whites. In Howard, Calvert, and Charles Counties in Maryland, the median household income is between $88,825 and $103,273, and the Black marijuana possession arrest rate is a stunning 837 per 100,000 (compared to the national rate of 253 per 100,000). In Fairfax and Loudoun, VA, where the median household incomes are both over $100,000, Blacks are approximately three times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. In Nassau, NY (part of Long Island), the median household income is over $93,000 and Blacks are over 3.5 times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana possession. See Figure 18.
Turning to the 15 counties with the lowest median household incomes, see Figure 20, in Scotland, NC, and Adams, MS, where the median household income is below $30,000, Blacks are almost five times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites. In Washington, LA ($27,797), and Dunklin, MO ($29,375), Blacks are four times more likely. In Dallas (includes Selma) and Pike, AL, both with median household incomes below $30,000 and white populations of 31% and 61%, respectively, the white arrest rate for marijuana possession was 0, while the Black arrest rate was 95 and 115, respectively. In Natchitoches, LA, and Oktibbeha, MS, the median household income is approximately $30,300, and the Black marijuana possession arrest rate is a staggering 1,201 per 100,000
If people think socioeconomics explains 3,4,8,10:1 ratios, when consumption rates are basically the same I just don't know what would convince you otherwise.
The justice system is racist, the fact that there are reasons it is racist is not an excuse to be racist. Being unintentionally racist/racially biased has essentially the same impact by and large.
I'm not going to argue that socioeconomics have zero impact but your reasoning is way past preposterous at this point.
In the worst offending counties across the country, Blacks were over 10, 15, even 30 times more likely to be arrested than white residents in the same county.
I'm all for getting rid of the War on Drugs. To be fair though, this data still doesn't compare the people. Even in overall-wealthy counties, there are going to be some poor areas. I'd like data actually comparing the wealth of the arrested people, not just the wealth of the neighborhoods they were arrested in. And really, I don't see why its so hard to get. I mean, I know its hard to find on Google, I mean I don't see why its so hard for some study to find. They run a background check on you as part of the booking process. Wouldn't that turn up your employment history? Or at least where you live and then the study could make an educated guess as to your wealth based on the price of the property.
Umm...
As you can see even when everyone in the neighborhood is lower income it's still blacks consistently getting arrested more.
It's not just socioeconomic. Whether you find data that satisfies your requirements or not is irrelevant.
Median income does not compare the wealth of the arrested. I live in a pretty small town. We are mostly middle class, but there's a trailer park that's dirt poor. Likewise, we also have a small area that's packed with multi-millionaires. A comparison based on median income of the county considers people from both groups to be just as wealthy, when they really aren't.
You are being so stubbornly oblivious it hurts. If you refuse to see the racial aspect and want to put the onus on socioeconomic issues and ignore the obvious as all hell I can't stop you, but I won't consider your comments on the topic of much if any value.
Sounds like the fire-fighter version of the Hunger Games, is this still legal and being practised?
Its voluntary, and the prisoners really like the program because its more fun and pays more than regular prison jobs.
Come on, they are desperate to get out of prison and/or afford some basic shit. Of course they like it better than getting payed pennies to fold underwear or whatever... It's still pretty fucked as it is working currently.
The host has graphics on police forces highlighted by WaPo that are highly demographically mismatched with the communities they served. Giuliani wondered why the attention was there and not the 93% of blacks killed by other blacks. It's the reason, in his mind, of the heavy police presence in poor, black communities (and maybe you can extrapolate a background arrest disparity from that alone). Layer that on the population percentages in the inner city. Is this really still police force racism everywhere, or maybe a few bad apples spread across the US? (Anybody got the breakdowns for violent crimes/burglaries vs missing child support payments ala the arrest that the victim in Baltimore Riots feared? We have covered cultural considerations time and time again without tying that in.)
The focus ought not to be on this purportedly easy fix for subconscious racism, or the "[institutionalized] racism in the us justice system", as is bandied about. You can, if you want, pressure guys like Jayme that have arrest records minority tilted, since "this simple numbers issue is why, for the most part, I have ended up arresting a "disproportionate" amount of minorities compared to white people." I don't know if labeling him part of the racist police problem BECAUSE of his racially dissected arrest record will net satisfaction for this thread's liberals.
Totally fucking clueless...Just stop please.
Well, its bad that many of them are in prison to begin with. But assuming they are there, the program is a good one.
If they'd be paid something comparable to what an actual fire-fighter makes. At least at the time of the article they made one dollar an hour, which practically means they work for nothing.
How it is they're using a giant prison population to do dangerous jobs for nearly no compensation so that they can buy themselves out of their situation.... That actually sounds like a deal a lot of slaves got.
That sounds fine with me, granted that the prison population comprises people who deserve to be in prison. You 2 need to compartmentalize this. That many of the prisoners who participate in the program would not be in prison in a just system does not mean a program within that unjust system is also bad.
Unless you have evidence that California is trying to get more prisoners for the firefighting program, then I retract that statement.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JD2Bq9v.jpg)
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