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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-18 22:29:58
March 18 2015 22:28 GMT
#34821
On March 19 2015 07:10 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 06:38 dAPhREAk wrote:
omg america. wtf.

Even for U.S. geography, the survey results are just as dismal.

Half could not find New York State on a map of the United States.

A third of the respondents could not find Louisiana, and 48 percent couldn't locate Mississippi on a map of the United States, even though Hurricane Katrina put these southeastern states in the spotlight in 2005.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/0502_060502_geography_2.html

Clearly we're not paying teachers enough.



Clearly. The little girl's expression in the video says it all

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
March 18 2015 22:55 GMT
#34822
On March 19 2015 06:10 Yoav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 02:02 xDaunt wrote:
And because we're on the topic of botched international relations, Netanyahu's reelection guarantees that Israeli-American relations are going to be in the shitter for the next two years. Obama did everything he could to get the opposition elected and failed. I doubt that fact will be forgotten. Kiss goodbye any prayer of Israeli cooperation on anything that the US might want in the near future.


Yeah, but Netanyahu's kinda a douche. So there's that.

Kinda curious how we react. He's said "fuck negotiations;" will we really keep vetoing the PA's diplomatic efforts internationally because they need to wait on negotiations? I mean, I know we will, but the hypocrisy will be palpable, and it will lose Israel more goodwill among the young in the US. Netanyahu feels like an agent sent back in time to destroy everything Israel is and stands for.


"Kind of"? He seems nothing short of a terrible person. He's going to run Israel into the ground by completely drying up all of the good will that the U.S. and Europe have for him. Once they get fed up with his bullshit, then support for that country will rapidly erode.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-18 23:08:13
March 18 2015 23:06 GMT
#34823
On March 19 2015 07:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 06:10 Yoav wrote:
On March 19 2015 02:02 xDaunt wrote:
And because we're on the topic of botched international relations, Netanyahu's reelection guarantees that Israeli-American relations are going to be in the shitter for the next two years. Obama did everything he could to get the opposition elected and failed. I doubt that fact will be forgotten. Kiss goodbye any prayer of Israeli cooperation on anything that the US might want in the near future.


Yeah, but Netanyahu's kinda a douche. So there's that.

Kinda curious how we react. He's said "fuck negotiations;" will we really keep vetoing the PA's diplomatic efforts internationally because they need to wait on negotiations? I mean, I know we will, but the hypocrisy will be palpable, and it will lose Israel more goodwill among the young in the US. Netanyahu feels like an agent sent back in time to destroy everything Israel is and stands for.


"Kind of"? He seems nothing short of a terrible person. He's going to run Israel into the ground by completely drying up all of the good will that the U.S. and Europe have for him. Once they get fed up with his bullshit, then support for that country will rapidly erode.


They have already more or less lost young people and non-Republicans.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



Israel doesn't just have to stop putting young non-republicans off, they are going to have to do something to win them back over. Otherwise, they will be missing the support they got from Obama in a decade or 2.

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
March 18 2015 23:22 GMT
#34824
interesting that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to support Israel.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
March 18 2015 23:24 GMT
#34825
On March 19 2015 08:22 dAPhREAk wrote:
interesting that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to support Israel.


could also correlate with the fact that the older you are, the more likely you are to hold a higher degree.

Since, you know, getting higher degrees takes time...
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
Chewbacca.
Profile Joined January 2011
United States3634 Posts
March 18 2015 23:27 GMT
#34826
On March 19 2015 08:24 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 08:22 dAPhREAk wrote:
interesting that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to support Israel.


could also correlate with the fact that the older you are, the more likely you are to hold a higher degree.

Since, you know, getting higher degrees takes time...

The age ranges are pretty broad, even the youngest age range is easily able to obtain a higher degree.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-18 23:30:53
March 18 2015 23:29 GMT
#34827
On March 19 2015 08:24 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 08:22 dAPhREAk wrote:
interesting that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to support Israel.


could also correlate with the fact that the older you are, the more likely you are to hold a higher degree.

Since, you know, getting higher degrees takes time...

well, you would expect the first three education categories to fit the first age category (18-29). I would think the final education category (post-graduate) would also fall into the 18-29, but arguably it would also fall into the (30-49). I think college and postgraduate past 50 is the exception not the rule. regardless, my point still stands that the more educated a person is the more likely they are to support israel.

edit: based on that data.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-19 00:01:32
March 18 2015 23:36 GMT
#34828
these numbers tend to fluctuate pretty widely based on what's in the news. (e.g. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/gallup.html ) the long term trend is that young people, and young college grads, are not very supportive of israel. personally all the secular jewish ppl i know are pretty hardcore against israeli leadership and they usually are also the most active voices critical of netanyahu
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
March 18 2015 23:40 GMT
#34829
On March 19 2015 08:22 dAPhREAk wrote:
interesting that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to support Israel.


It also makes you more likely to vote D, curious indeed.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 18 2015 23:54 GMT
#34830
On March 19 2015 08:36 oneofthem wrote:
these numbers tend to fluctuate pretty widely based on what's in the news. (e.g. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/gallup.html) the long term trend is that young people, and young college grads, are not very supportive of israel. personally all the secular jewish ppl i know are pretty hardcore against israeli leadership and they usually are also the most active voices critical of netanyahu

These numbers are a natural reflection of Israel's success at portraying its war against 'Islamic terrorism' and Americas. But as Israel becomes more and more religious and rightwing it will stop looking less and less like America and with that the kind of passive 'oh they are the same as us' thing is going to go away.
Sandvich
Profile Joined September 2011
United States57 Posts
March 19 2015 00:13 GMT
#34831
On March 19 2015 08:54 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 08:36 oneofthem wrote:
these numbers tend to fluctuate pretty widely based on what's in the news. (e.g. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/gallup.html) the long term trend is that young people, and young college grads, are not very supportive of israel. personally all the secular jewish ppl i know are pretty hardcore against israeli leadership and they usually are also the most active voices critical of netanyahu

These numbers are a natural reflection of Israel's success at portraying its war against 'Islamic terrorism' and Americas. But as Israel becomes more and more religious and rightwing it will stop looking less and less like America and with that the kind of passive 'oh they are the same as us' thing is going to go away.

I also think Netanyahu's fear-mongering with his comments about arab-israelis influencing the vote will help some Americans realize that Israel is becoming similar to Apartheid. I mean I hope most Americans wouldn't want to support a racist prime minister, but who knows the power of lobbying.
"Stop Whining"
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-19 00:42:12
March 19 2015 00:39 GMT
#34832
The last Israel election has shown that most Israelies are beyond reason at this point. The anti-Semitism associated with anti-Zionism has always disgusted me whenever I worked with anti-Zionists, but Israel has no right to cry about the horrors of anti-Semitism anymore with the election of a Prime Minister who does not hide his racism towards Arabs. To hold Palestinian Arabs to a higher standard at this point is just absurd.
As Apartheid was near its end, only like 10 percent of the white population at most supported an end to the policy. Likewise, Israelies are going to be completely useless in ending the occupation and settlements.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18826 Posts
March 19 2015 00:43 GMT
#34833
Your unequivocal interpretation of an election result as basis for condemning the whole of a nation is ill-conceived, particularly in light of how close it was.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
March 19 2015 00:46 GMT
#34834
The Anti-Israel circlejerk is strong on the internet and apartheid comparisons are very ridiculous. Fact of the matter is that 20% of the Israeli population are Arab Muslims and 10% hold political positions, serve in a military etc.. It's probably a better representation than most minorities in other countries have. Sure there is a lot of shitty rhetoric going around but given the geopolitical situation in the region the ethnic situation in Israel doesn't justify the criticism.
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
March 19 2015 00:59 GMT
#34835
On March 19 2015 09:43 farvacola wrote:
Your unequivocal interpretation of an election result as basis for condemning the whole of a nation is ill-conceived, particularly in light of how close it was.

I know many people like to say that the crazies are mostly the Likud and The Jewish Home like my dad, but they ignore all the other parties. Arial Sharon whose human rights record was atrocious came from the liberal Kadima Party, Labour has been cowardly in opposing the hawks and were more often than not, hawks themselves as demonstrated by Shimon Peres and his support for aggressive military policies. Then there is the Yair Lapid which seems like a group of decent people committed to liberal principals but the continual support for settlements and land captured by war which is a violation of international law. I could go on and on about parties like Shas, UTJ, and the other minor parties with very similar positions in regards to Palestine but that would be too much of a rant.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 19 2015 01:50 GMT
#34836
On March 19 2015 09:43 farvacola wrote:
Your unequivocal interpretation of an election result as basis for condemning the whole of a nation is ill-conceived, particularly in light of how close it was.

I agree sort of but a couple caveats:
1) It seems like Natanyahu scored as surprising victory by going full reactionary. No Palestinian independence + Arab fear mongering.
2) There seems to be a large of Israel voters who hold outright reactionary views. And their number is growing in the voting booths.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 19 2015 01:52 GMT
#34837
On March 19 2015 09:46 Nyxisto wrote:
The Anti-Israel circlejerk is strong on the internet and apartheid comparisons are very ridiculous. Fact of the matter is that 20% of the Israeli population are Arab Muslims and 10% hold political positions, serve in a military etc.. It's probably a better representation than most minorities in other countries have. Sure there is a lot of shitty rhetoric going around but given the geopolitical situation in the region the ethnic situation in Israel doesn't justify the criticism.

I agree that they are ridiculous but the direction has been getting worse. Secular Israel Leftism merely asked whether you support Israel nationalism -- although muddled by the claim that Israel is a Jewish state -- still allowed for Arab Muslim citizenship just like every other modern, western nation state. The increased proportion of far right, Israel is god's gift annex everything and expel the Sand monkeys to other sand monkey lands, in the recent populations is a dangerous thread. Natanyahu's naked appeal to reactionary Republicans like Danglars is a warning that Israel is trending towards something ugly.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18826 Posts
March 19 2015 01:55 GMT
#34838
Bush's victory was a surprise for one, and we're still in the afterglow of Netanyahu practically pulling out all the stops in his rhetoric game. He now either has to play the hand he's been claiming to hold or acquiesce to moderate concerns. I don't think he has any real political inertia.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
March 19 2015 02:54 GMT
#34839
On March 19 2015 10:52 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2015 09:46 Nyxisto wrote:
The Anti-Israel circlejerk is strong on the internet and apartheid comparisons are very ridiculous. Fact of the matter is that 20% of the Israeli population are Arab Muslims and 10% hold political positions, serve in a military etc.. It's probably a better representation than most minorities in other countries have. Sure there is a lot of shitty rhetoric going around but given the geopolitical situation in the region the ethnic situation in Israel doesn't justify the criticism.

I agree that they are ridiculous but the direction has been getting worse. Secular Israel Leftism merely asked whether you support Israel nationalism -- although muddled by the claim that Israel is a Jewish state -- still allowed for Arab Muslim citizenship just like every other modern, western nation state. The increased proportion of far right, Israel is god's gift annex everything and expel the Sand monkeys to other sand monkey lands, in the recent populations is a dangerous thread. Natanyahu's naked appeal to reactionary Republicans like Danglars is a warning that Israel is trending towards something ugly.


The deal with the settlements (which seems to be one of the bigger point of frictions when it comes to international relations) is a bit more complicated though. The last time Israel withdrew from territory (Gaza) Hamas got elected to power and rocket shelling increased by an insane amount, so much for appeasement. I think when people act like opposition towards the Israelian state is just some kind of political reaction that's grossly wrong. Much of the hate towards Israel and the Jewish people comes from ideology, just try to imagine what would happen if military powers were reversed.
jellyjello
Profile Joined March 2011
Korea (South)664 Posts
March 19 2015 03:47 GMT
#34840
A Liberal Columnist Comes To His Senses: "'Hands up, don't shoot' was built on a lie"

Through exhaustive interviews with witnesses, cross-checking their statements with previous statements to authorities and the media, ballistics, DNA evidence and results from three autopsies, the Justice Department was able to present a credible and troubling picture of what happened on Canfield Drive. More credible than the grand jury decision to not indict Wilson. The transcript of his grand jury testimony read like so much hand-holding by the prosecution.

What DOJ found made me ill. Wilson knew about the theft of the cigarillos from the convenience store and had a description of the suspects. Brown fought with the officer and tried to take his gun. And the popular hands-up storyline, which isn’t corroborated by ballistic and DNA evidence and multiple witness statements, was perpetuated by Witness 101. In fact, just about everything said to the media by Witness 101, whom we all know as Dorian Johnson, the friend with Brown that day, was not supported by the evidence and other witness statements.
.
.
.
Now that black lives matter to everyone, it is imperative that we continue marching for and giving voice to those killed in racially charged incidents at the hands of police and others. But we must never allow ourselves to march under the banner of a false narrative on behalf of someone who would otherwise offend our sense of right and wrong. And when we discover that we have, we must acknowledge it, admit our error and keep on marching. That’s what I’ve done here.


Good for him to come to his senses and admit his wrong. Can't say the same for other prominent left-wingers though...
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