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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On March 05 2015 05:49 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2015 02:14 Yoav wrote:On March 04 2015 15:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 04 2015 15:38 coverpunch wrote:On March 04 2015 13:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Like I said, the investigations into the departments are a lot more illuminating than the cases on officers themselves. In Ferguson, Missouri, bias has been so pervasive that city officials sometimes used racial slurs in their emails. President Barack Obama would not stay in office, wrote one city official, since “what black man holds a steady job for four years.”
Black residents were twice as likely as whites to be searched during a routine traffic stop, although they were 26 percent less likely to carry contraband. African-Americans make up 67 percent of the city’s population but constitute 93 percent of its arrests.
Municipal courts heavily favored whites in deciding if cases would be dismissed. And the city used heavy fines to send many impoverished black residents to jail, part of a system that created a debtors’ prison.
Those were among the harsh findings of a Department of Justice civil rights investigation set to be released Wednesday whose contents were previewed to POLITICO by a source familiar with the investigation.
A law enforcement official familiar with the department’s civil rights probe found that the FPD frequently conducted traffic stops without reasonable suspicion and arrested individuals without probable cause.
The source also said that the investigation found Ferguson police routinely employed excessive force and violated the free speech rights of the accused.
The investigation found multiple violations by police of Ferguson residents’ Fourth Amendment rights, as well as significant racial bias within the largely-white force in violation of the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
In addition to violations by police, the DOJ focused on the city’s municipal court system, which amassed revenue through excessive ticketing of residents living in or near poverty. The investigation alleges that this practice encouraged police misconduct.
Over 16,000 of Ferguson’s 21,000 residents had outstanding arrest warrants, the majority of which were the result of cases involving minor traffic or housing code violations.
Source While you were on point in highlighting the differences in treatment between black and white citizens in Ferguson, I feel like you really should have emphasized the first part where city officials are using racial slurs in e-mail and speaking badly about President Obama based on their racial prejudices. WTF is up with that. Well as a black American who has had their civil rights violated before, I found the systematic and flagrant abuse of American's (especially black American's) civil and constitutional rights a bit more important than typical right wing chain email rhetoric. I presume the conservatives are just about to rally behind the black population of Ferguson and elsewhere across the country as the government (the police) have been so egregiously violating the constitutional rights we all hold so dear? I presume they would support more reviews of other departments that have high rates of similar complaints to Ferguson? I'm sure conservatives must have something to say about such blatant abuse of Americans at the hands of the government? In their defense, a lot of conservatives were pretty pissed about the Eric Garner and Tamir Rice cases. Michael Brown is legally and ethically fuzzier, though obviously Ferguson PD has some serious cleaning up to do. Someone get Scott Walker in here! There's union-busting needs doing! I haven't heard conservatives upset about the police treatment of Tamir Rice? I definitely haven't heard conservatives talk about the role race played with Tamir Rice? As for Walker he doesn't touch police unions, so I doubt he would be any help.
Lot of libertarians upset about Rice. I was going mostly on acquaintances, since I heard more from public figures on the Garner killing. But a quick google search confirmed my suspicion; plenty of libertarian conservatives are in fact writing about it being bullshit.
As for Walker, yeah, I was kidding. I just think it would be hilarious if it weren't so sad that the Republicans and Democrats completely switch sides in the argument depending on whether they're talking teachers or cops. And since the terrible quality of both is the shared root of a lot of America's problems, particularly for black Americans, its bizarre that so few people are pointing out how bullshit it is that unions make bad cops and teachers so well protected.
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On March 05 2015 07:39 Sermokala wrote:
The whole thing is a race issue but its not on the police sides fault. Until that gets confronted then its never going to change. Communities are responsible for alienating their local police departments by villianizeing cops to the point where the kids in poor non white areas don't want to be cops resulting in the only people becoming cops are white middle class people who can't relate to those communities.
This isn't a new issue and isn't some mystery where no one knows the solution. Maybe white people and black people are different culture and community wise.
or, you know, maybe it is the police fault for being a racist institution.
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No no no it's the black culture, they just love being arrested so much they just can't stop. I'm actually surprised it took so long for this to pop up. That a lot of studies actually show that black people, for example, get disproportionately often arrested when it comes to drug crime, (source) is apparently irrelevant.
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On March 05 2015 07:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2015 06:59 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 05 2015 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2015 06:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 05 2015 06:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2015 06:32 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 05 2015 06:05 Paljas wrote:On March 05 2015 06:01 RCMDVA wrote:
The Tamir Rice shooting happens so damn fast, I think it could have been a white/asian/hispanic kid and it would have gone the same. He's got a parka on and underneath a gazeebo and the cop car slides through the wet grass/snow before it goes bad. The whole thing lasts 2-4 seconds. I think there is was a break down from the 9-1-1 call taker, to the police dispatcher.. to the cops. The cops were not told he was a boy or had a toy gun, iirc. and how often did something like this happen with a white kid? It happens, sadly. I don't think I can google up an exact match to the situation, but here's a story about a white 19 year old girl shot by officer Wakana Okuma while holding a drill ( link). Not only does "It happens" not answer the question of "How often" but it also isn't true. You wont find a comparable situation with a white child, and it's not a coincidence.The longer it takes to realize that, the longer the problem persists. Police interaction with mentally unstable people is just another pervasive problem. It accounts for a significant amount of the white as well as black victims of police abuses. Stop it. I know you don't like us whites, but going down that road isn't productive. You were wrong. Simple as that. About what? "It" doesn't "happen" You can't find a comparable case of a white child let alone a preteen being shot and killed by police. Nor would you find the police/defense counsel blaming the child.
17 year old white boy shot while holding a Wii remote: link.
13 year old light skinned hispanic shot holding toy rifle: link.
13 year old white-asian shit holding cell phone: link. “If there are basic no-nos that we should teach our children, it’s if you’re confronted by a law officer, never reach into your waistband,” said Mar, who was not involved in this case as a psychologist.
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On March 05 2015 08:03 Nyxisto wrote:No no no it's the black culture, they just love being arrested so much they just can't stop. I'm actually surprised it took so long for this to pop up. That a lot of studies actually show that black people, for example, get disproportionately often arrested when it comes to drug crime, ( source) is apparently irrelevant.
It's all you will find on any conservative site with open comments.
During the period 2012-2014 black drivers were twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during traffic stops, but 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband.
Yeah clearly it's a cultural thing why black people want to be searched more often, despite being less likely to actually have something to find right?
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Did anyone else skim through the King v. Burwell oral arguments? I enjoyed this snippet of an exchange between Scalia and the Solicitor General:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SI0N0vj.jpg)
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Edit: ^^^ was that today? brb getting transcript. Uhg, audio not out till end of the week. Darn it!
Original comment:
No one here talks about the drivel found in the comments of far lefty sites. Mentioning comment sections of any site with an ideological slant is poisonous. Worse than TL general 
Please stop. And while you're at it, if people could not post random tweets, that would be great. Thanks.
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On March 05 2015 08:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2015 07:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2015 06:59 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 05 2015 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2015 06:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 05 2015 06:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2015 06:32 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 05 2015 06:05 Paljas wrote:On March 05 2015 06:01 RCMDVA wrote:
The Tamir Rice shooting happens so damn fast, I think it could have been a white/asian/hispanic kid and it would have gone the same. He's got a parka on and underneath a gazeebo and the cop car slides through the wet grass/snow before it goes bad. The whole thing lasts 2-4 seconds. I think there is was a break down from the 9-1-1 call taker, to the police dispatcher.. to the cops. The cops were not told he was a boy or had a toy gun, iirc. and how often did something like this happen with a white kid? It happens, sadly. I don't think I can google up an exact match to the situation, but here's a story about a white 19 year old girl shot by officer Wakana Okuma while holding a drill ( link). Not only does "It happens" not answer the question of "How often" but it also isn't true. You wont find a comparable situation with a white child, and it's not a coincidence.The longer it takes to realize that, the longer the problem persists. Police interaction with mentally unstable people is just another pervasive problem. It accounts for a significant amount of the white as well as black victims of police abuses. Stop it. I know you don't like us whites, but going down that road isn't productive. You were wrong. Simple as that. About what? "It" doesn't "happen" You can't find a comparable case of a white child let alone a preteen being shot and killed by police. Nor would you find the police/defense counsel blaming the child. 17 year old white boy shot while holding a Wii remote: link. 13 year old light skinned hispanic shot holding toy rifle: link. 13 year old white-asian shit holding cell phone: link. Show nested quote +“If there are basic no-nos that we should teach our children, it’s if you’re confronted by a law officer, never reach into your waistband,” said Mar, who was not involved in this case as a psychologist.
No one is arguing that white people never suffer from police brutality. The claim is that blacks and other minorities suffer from police brutality at significantly higher rates than whites, and this claim is supported by A LOT of evidence, including the excellent source GH posted earlier.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
racial profiling exists and widespread in some areas.
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On March 05 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2015 08:03 Nyxisto wrote:No no no it's the black culture, they just love being arrested so much they just can't stop. I'm actually surprised it took so long for this to pop up. That a lot of studies actually show that black people, for example, get disproportionately often arrested when it comes to drug crime, ( source) is apparently irrelevant. It's all you will find on any conservative site with open comments. Show nested quote +During the period 2012-2014 black drivers were twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during traffic stops, but 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband. Yeah clearly it's a cultural thing why black people want to be searched more often, despite being less likely to actually have something to find right?
We've been over this before. IIRC for the St. Louis area whites were proportionally the second most searched, with other races being proportionally being under-searched. Location also played a role with more searches inside the city (black stops) than on the highway (white stops), which may have been due to race, or a legitimate police tactic related to safety (highway more dangerous).
Now would you like to have a grown up discussion about that or just keep rolling with 'conservatives don't care' and 'whites don't get shot'?
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On March 05 2015 08:15 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2015 08:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 05 2015 07:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2015 06:59 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 05 2015 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2015 06:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 05 2015 06:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2015 06:32 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On March 05 2015 06:05 Paljas wrote:On March 05 2015 06:01 RCMDVA wrote:
The Tamir Rice shooting happens so damn fast, I think it could have been a white/asian/hispanic kid and it would have gone the same. He's got a parka on and underneath a gazeebo and the cop car slides through the wet grass/snow before it goes bad. The whole thing lasts 2-4 seconds. I think there is was a break down from the 9-1-1 call taker, to the police dispatcher.. to the cops. The cops were not told he was a boy or had a toy gun, iirc. and how often did something like this happen with a white kid? It happens, sadly. I don't think I can google up an exact match to the situation, but here's a story about a white 19 year old girl shot by officer Wakana Okuma while holding a drill ( link). Not only does "It happens" not answer the question of "How often" but it also isn't true. You wont find a comparable situation with a white child, and it's not a coincidence.The longer it takes to realize that, the longer the problem persists. Police interaction with mentally unstable people is just another pervasive problem. It accounts for a significant amount of the white as well as black victims of police abuses. Stop it. I know you don't like us whites, but going down that road isn't productive. You were wrong. Simple as that. About what? "It" doesn't "happen" You can't find a comparable case of a white child let alone a preteen being shot and killed by police. Nor would you find the police/defense counsel blaming the child. 17 year old white boy shot while holding a Wii remote: link. 13 year old light skinned hispanic shot holding toy rifle: link. 13 year old white-asian shit holding cell phone: link. “If there are basic no-nos that we should teach our children, it’s if you’re confronted by a law officer, never reach into your waistband,” said Mar, who was not involved in this case as a psychologist. No one is arguing that white people never suffer from police brutality. The claim is the blacks and other minorities suffer from police brutality at significantly higher rates than whites, and this claim is supported by A LOT of evidence, including the excellent source GH posted earlier.
GH claimed it didn't happen:
"It" doesn't "happen"
You can't find a comparable case of a white child let alone a preteen being shot and killed by police. Nor would you find the police/defense counsel blaming the child.
I've never claimed that whites and blacks were arrested / shot / whatever at the same rate. That's you guys attacking me for things I never said. Shame on you.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 05 2015 08:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2015 08:03 Nyxisto wrote:No no no it's the black culture, they just love being arrested so much they just can't stop. I'm actually surprised it took so long for this to pop up. That a lot of studies actually show that black people, for example, get disproportionately often arrested when it comes to drug crime, ( source) is apparently irrelevant. It's all you will find on any conservative site with open comments. During the period 2012-2014 black drivers were twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during traffic stops, but 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband. Yeah clearly it's a cultural thing why black people want to be searched more often, despite being less likely to actually have something to find right? We've been over this before. IIRC for the St. Louis area whites were proportionally the second most searched, with other races being proportionally being under-searched. Location also played a role with more searches inside the city (black stops) than on the highway (white stops), which may have been due to race, or a legitimate police tactic related to safety (highway more dangerous). Now would you like to have a grown up discussion about that or just keep rolling with 'conservatives don't care' and 'whites don't get shot'?
might as well include parking violations in white neighborhoods for more confounding stats to obscure the situation a bit further.
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17 year old white boy shot while holding a Wii remote:
"I went up on the porch and knocked on the door," Gatny said in the recording. "I heard somebody approach the door and it sounded like they racked a gun. The door opened and there's this guy standing there with a gun pointed at my face, and his hand clenched, so I think he had...And by that time, I had pulled out my gun and I thought he had shot me and I returned fire."
13 year old light skinned hispanic shot holding toy rifle
Not White? and..
The veteran deputy, one of the department’s training officers, told investigators that after he ordered the boy to drop the gun, Lopez began turning toward him and raised the gun’s barrel in his direction, police officials said.
13 year old white-asian shit holding cell phone:
wasn't killed, officer fired only 2 shots, and
The two people ran when they spotted the officer, and he chased them in his car south to South Washington Street and 26th Avenue South. There, the officer shined a spotlight on them and ordered them to put their hands up, police said.
One suspect, a 14-year-old, complied. But the other acted “very agitated” and didn’t listen to the officer, who repeated his orders several times,
According to police, the 13-year-old took off a large jacket and threw it on the ground, then lifted up his T-shirt, reached into a pocket and pulled out a black object. The boy was moving toward the officer,
None of those are evidence of White children (none of them were preteens either) facing comparable circumstances or outcomes to Tamir Rice. Nice try though. Going all the way back to 2007 is impressive too.
Regardless, as has been pointed out the frequency is incomparable. Bringing up that white people get shot couldn't be more irrelevant to the point of disproportionality. It only obfuscates the point.
Moreover these are just the most egregious outcomes. Illegal searches, arresting, fining, and jailing are far more frequent outcomes for racially prejudiced 'justice'.
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.. or say that a downward trend in violent crime justifies an upward trend in police shooting unarmed suspects (that are not really suspected of any crime)
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On March 05 2015 08:16 oneofthem wrote:
racial profiling exists and widespread in some areas.
And the Republican/Conservatives typical responses help illustrate why things look like this...
+ Show Spoiler +
That was back in 2012 too. I imagine those Hispanic numbers have dropped a bit particularly since the DHS/immigration shutdown threat.
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I'm gonna have to side with Jonny on this one.
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On March 05 2015 09:34 zlefin wrote:
I'm gonna have to side with Jonny on this one.
On what?
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“If there are basic no-nos that we should teach our children, it’s if you’re confronted by a law officer, never reach into your waistband,” said Mar, who was not involved in this case as a psychologist.
And you think that is a good state of affairs? "Kids, when you are around cops, don't make any sudden movements, don't scare them in any way, just keep your hands above your head and lie down with your face to the ground, or it could happen that the cop shoots you dead."
That sounds like something you tell people when dealing with wild animals. Not the people who are supposed to "serve and protect" you.
If a cop shoots a civilian, that cop should be put on trial like any other killer, and have to prove in a court of law that shooting that person was lawful, either in self defense or in extended self defense to prevent some other civilian from getting hurt. There should be absolutely no exceptions to that. And if there was is any doubt left, he should definitively never work as a cop again. This would also suddenly mean that cops would actually have incentive to have videos of when they shoot people not conveniently disappear. Put a bodycam on every cop and they shouldn't have a too hard time proving their cases in the rare occasions they shoot people.
American cops kill people roughly two orders of magnitude more often than those in other first world countries. (And unrelated information, they also kill A LOT more americans than terrorists do. And still terrorists are your number one problem)
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On March 05 2015 09:43 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +“If there are basic no-nos that we should teach our children, it’s if you’re confronted by a law officer, never reach into your waistband,” said Mar, who was not involved in this case as a psychologist. And you think that is a good state of affairs? "Kids, when you are around cops, don't make any sudden movements, don't scare them in any way, just keep your hands above your head and lie down with your face to the ground, or it could happen that the cop shoots you dead." That sounds like something you tell people when dealing with wild animals. Not the people who are supposed to "serve and protect" you. If a cop shoots a civilian, that cop should be put on trial like any other killer, and have to prove in a court of law that shooting that person was lawful, either in self defense or in extended self defense to prevent some other civilian from getting hurt. There should be absolutely no exceptions to that. And if there was is any doubt left, he should definitively never work as a cop again. This would also suddenly mean that cops would actually have incentive to have videos of when they shoot people not conveniently disappear. Put a bodycam on every cop and they shouldn't have a too hard time proving their cases in the rare occasions they shoot people. American cops kill people roughly two orders of magnitude more often than those in other first world countries. (And unrelated information, they also kill A LOT more americans than terrorists do. And still terrorists are your number one problem)
why would you think there are exceptions to cops being put on trial?
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On March 05 2015 08:47 GreenHorizons wrote:17 year old white boy shot while holding a Wii remote: Show nested quote +"I went up on the porch and knocked on the door," Gatny said in the recording. "I heard somebody approach the door and it sounded like they racked a gun. The door opened and there's this guy standing there with a gun pointed at my face, and his hand clenched, so I think he had...And by that time, I had pulled out my gun and I thought he had shot me and I returned fire." 13 year old light skinned hispanic shot holding toy rifle Not White? and.. Show nested quote +The veteran deputy, one of the department’s training officers, told investigators that after he ordered the boy to drop the gun, Lopez began turning toward him and raised the gun’s barrel in his direction, police officials said. 13 year old white-asian shit holding cell phone: wasn't killed, officer fired only 2 shots, and Show nested quote +The two people ran when they spotted the officer, and he chased them in his car south to South Washington Street and 26th Avenue South. There, the officer shined a spotlight on them and ordered them to put their hands up, police said.
One suspect, a 14-year-old, complied. But the other acted “very agitated” and didn’t listen to the officer, who repeated his orders several times,
According to police, the 13-year-old took off a large jacket and threw it on the ground, then lifted up his T-shirt, reached into a pocket and pulled out a black object. The boy was moving toward the officer, None of those are evidence of White children (none of them were preteens either) facing comparable circumstances or outcomes to Tamir Rice. Nice try though. Going all the way back to 2007 is impressive too. Regardless, as has been pointed out the frequency is incomparable. Bringing up that white people get shot couldn't be more irrelevant to the point of disproportionality. It only obfuscates the point. Moreover these are just the most egregious outcomes. Illegal searches, arresting, fining, and jailing are far more frequent outcomes for racially prejudiced 'justice'.
13 is pretty close to 12. Many Hispanics identify as white (hence non-hispanic white classification) and don't look very different from Europeans. In the case of Tamir Rice, he had an airsoft/bb gun which is visually almost indistinguishable from a real gun (unlike a cell phone).
If you want to get into dis-proportionality, read my previous post. Disproportional is not always incorrect or the result of racism. It can be, but you can't constantly make that assumption if you want to make things better. And as I pointed out earlier blacks are dis-proportionally arrested in liberal cities, yet you're trying to score political points by blaming whites and conservatives.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/S3sSw15.gif)
