EPTAlso, have a system that is not constantly under threat to get shut down every 2 months.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1667
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11596 Posts
Also, have a system that is not constantly under threat to get shut down every 2 months. | ||
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always_winter
United States195 Posts
On February 26 2015 05:42 farvacola wrote: Conscription of kindergartners aside, what would your solution be? Abolish the party system. Reverse the Citizens United ruling and expunge the rampant corruption of Washington lobbyists. Allow citizens to choose their electives on the basis of personal qualification rather than partisan affiliation. Allow our policy-makers to construct their own political ideologies and to stray from the restrictive ideological barriers raised by contemporary American politics. | ||
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farvacola
United States18835 Posts
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puerk
Germany855 Posts
On February 26 2015 06:38 farvacola wrote: I actually like where you're going with that, but the devil is in deconstructing the two party system in a meaningful and positive way that leads to a better alternative. That's gonna take a lot of creative thinking and an incredible assemblage of power. assemblage of power: yes creative thinking: no proportional voting systems with local representation that allow more than 2 parties to thrive are abundand and work, just choose your flavor. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On February 25 2015 15:27 Mohdoo wrote: We're in agreement. 2016 is when the fruits of inaction really begin to show. The time for making the case has passed on both issues. It was only a dog and pony show for opposition all this time in the interests of maintaining GOP power in house and senate. I would argue Obamacare will be way too deeply rooted by then. I don't think republicans will make Obamacare an issue in 2016. Getting rid of it would be too problematic even at this point? 2016? No way. I don't know what went on in the back rooms to satiate the tea party faction from really making a stink on house leadership selection (comparatively less influence in senate atm). 2016 could be a huge disaster for the GOP and they'll have nobody to blame but themselves. Every campaign promise of significance will be lying broken. Obama's game of political chicken won out. | ||
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farvacola
United States18835 Posts
On February 26 2015 06:54 puerk wrote: assemblage of power: yes creative thinking: no proportional voting systems with local representation that allow more than 2 parties to thrive are abundand and work, just choose your flavor. I see where you're going with this, but I think it bears worth mentioning that the United States faces some very unique geo-political issues when it comes to how voting districts relative to state lines are drawn. Nowhere else in the world does there exist a state/federal divide in political power quite like the one here in the US, and that's why assembling the power needed here to put into place that kind of reform requires a great deal of creative thinking. The areas outside the reach of the urban U.S. have typically enjoyed a disproportionate amount of political influence, and getting them to surrender it in favor of a different distribution of representative power is not going to be easy lol. | ||
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puerk
Germany855 Posts
You know how the US helped set up the german federal system and only "allowed" it to happen the way it did, because they agreed it was a good system. The brainwork for a political system that is capable of balancing a federal structure in the 20th century was done. But somehow the US ignored every lesson they learned on the international stage about effective legislature and government building and went back home to their kasperle-theater. | ||
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farvacola
United States18835 Posts
And it should go without saying that the U.S. likes to not practice what it preaches, but let's not forget that hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue. | ||
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puerk
Germany855 Posts
Can you maybe give me a sense of american public opinion about the german voting system? Are they thinking it could never work for you because you are so "heterogenous", and we supposedly "homogeneous"? My (naive) understanding is, that if a bigger slice of the population (that seems to be very unhappy with congress at large) knew how participating parties in the german federal legislature shifted over time, they would welcome that flexibility to "punish" bad policies by actually voting them out. For instance is the evolution of the FDP known to the general public in the US? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18096 Posts
On February 26 2015 07:28 puerk wrote: Well it's always uphill, when you want meaningful change. Can you maybe give me a sense of american public opinion about the german voting system? Are they thinking it could never work for you because you are so "heterogenous", and we supposedly "homogeneous"? My (naive) understanding is, that if a bigger slice of the population (that seems to be very unhappy with congress at large) knew how participating parties in the german federal legislature shifted over time, they would welcome that flexibility to "punish" bad policies by actually voting them out. For instance is the evolution of the FDP known to the general public in the US? You honestly think the general public of any country other than Germany, and perhaps Holland, Denmark, Austria and Switzerland know what the FDP is? Let alone how it waxed and waned over time? | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On February 26 2015 06:01 Simberto wrote: Have a system that actually prevents those strategies from being effective. Having more than two parties is a good starting point. Which obviously means getting rid of shitty FPTP. This way, if two people fight each other and look like toddlers, people can actually vote for someone else instead of having to rationalize that their toddler is the better one. Also, have a system that is not constantly under threat to get shut down every 2 months. The 'two party' system is fine. It's not perfect but people's complaints are exaggerated. | ||
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farvacola
United States18835 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
http://www.vox.com/2015/2/25/8108005/obama-muslim-poll So before any meaningful political change can be made, maybe all Americans need to return to the same planet again, because that kind of distortion is just ridiculous. There seems to be such a giant divide in the country about things that are simply a matter of fact, I don't know how you can even tackle this. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23429 Posts
On February 26 2015 07:57 farvacola wrote: Most Americans are going to hear the acronym FDP and Germany together and think something about Nazis because 3 letter acronyms usually stand for scary or unlikable government agencies lol. Seriously, mentioning the metric system can rile people up, (gaining popular support for) adopting a foreign style of government would make heads explode. Although if we give ourselves another Democrat President and Republican house people might be so fed up with how broken our politicians are they might be willing to take any suggestion. On February 26 2015 07:59 Nyxisto wrote: I think you need to go a little further back than just talking about the party system. Apparently 50% of Republicans are convinced that Obama is "deep down" a Muslim. http://www.vox.com/2015/2/25/8108005/obama-muslim-poll So before any meaningful political change can be made, maybe all Americans need to return to the same planet again, because that kind of distortion is just ridiculous. There seems to be such a giant divide in the country about things that are simply a matter of fact, I don't know how you can even tackle this. There are about 15-30% of republicans that would blame Obama for putting Jesus on the cross if you polled them... In fairness the most ridiculous stuff is driven more by hate and such than plain delusion. At least I don't think they actually think Obama is more responsible for the Katrina fallout than Bush was, or that he is a Muslim. I Imagine the number of them ignorant enough and blinded by enough rage/hate that they actually believe he is Muslim (The woman from McCain's run comes to mind) is smaller than the people who are just saying it to be childish dicks. Despite mentioning being Christian all the time (I pine for the day an open Agnostic can run and win) I think the more honest answer would be "don't know". I guess if Hillary wins we'll see how much of all the Obama hate was driven by his "Other" character that painted him as a foreign born, Muslim, anti-American, terrorist sympathizer, etc, etc... While Republicans hate for Hillary rages hard there are very minimal core/broad hatreds that will play politically. For Obama the underlying Islamaphobia, Racism, Xenophobia, Homophobia, etc.. all fit neatly into the narrative those Republicans believe to one degree or another. Those don't line up against Hillary. The things the right hates the most about Hillary don't have those same underlying intense (vote driving) hate clouds. Even with the help of all that hate republicans have lost practically every policy debate, without it, Hillary will walk all over them. When they inevitably go after her personally like they do Obama it's not going to be received nearly as well by people around the middle who still harbor some of the previously mentioned phobia/hates (not that there won't be insinuations from the right that she is a lesbian now). Republicans will start poking around more soon seeing how far they can go insinuating she's "just a woman, who should leave this job to men" without getting their hand slapped. I expect at least one candidate will be the sacrificial lamb (probably Trump) who will say something ridiculous about gender. That way it will be like Mayor 9/11 saying Obama doesn't love America. All the 'respectable' candidates will be able to say that they disagree personally but whoever is free to express their opinion. The more pathetic ones will just give some ambiguous "I don't know, I never asked him" type response. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On February 26 2015 07:59 Nyxisto wrote: I think you need to go a little further back than just talking about the party system. Apparently 50% of Republicans are convinced that Obama is "deep down" a Muslim. http://www.vox.com/2015/2/25/8108005/obama-muslim-poll So before any meaningful political change can be made, maybe all Americans need to return to the same planet again, because that kind of distortion is just ridiculous. There seems to be such a giant divide in the country about things that are simply a matter of fact, I don't know how you can even tackle this. Lol, you should see how many Germans think austerity is glorious  | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On February 26 2015 07:57 farvacola wrote: Most Americans are going to hear the acronym FDP and Germany together and think something about Nazis because 3 letter acronyms usually stand for scary or unlikable government agencies lol. FDP and unlikable governement are accurate associations. Europeans are quick to trash americas party system, but honestly, I dont see how the multiple party system is that much better. Like, in most european countries, you only have the choice between two/three leading parties which are often pretty similar. I dont think there is some magical fix for the problems, they just seem to be connected to any form of a party based democracy. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On February 26 2015 08:13 Paljas wrote: FDP and unlikable governement are accurate associations. Europeans are quick to trash americas party system, but honestly, I dont see how the multiple party system is that much better. Like, in most european countries, you only have the choice between two/three leading parties which are often pretty similar. I dont think there is some magical fix for the problems, they just seem to be connected to any form of a party based democracy. The biggest problem I see with your political system is that it's technically two party, but in reality it's just a hundred faces all clamouring for their chance to grandstand and get their name out. Not that it's much better to have a system where each individual party member is just a cog in a machine, and virtually faceless unless they're party leader or appointed to a higher position, but at least there is less time spent just spinning wheels. | ||
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puerk
Germany855 Posts
On February 26 2015 08:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Lol, you should see how many Germans think austerity is glorious Not many, but there are enough germans fed up with the european idea, that they demand austerity from others (as a punishment, so they must have some kind of understanding of its crippling effects, otherwise it wouldnt be a punishment) @farvacola that sounds a bit to depressing to be real, so please try again  @ Wolfinthesheep you quoted a german poster and than went on to address something that doesnt sound like the german system at all in 2nd person, looking like you address said poster. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On February 26 2015 07:28 puerk wrote: Well it's always uphill, when you want meaningful change. Can you maybe give me a sense of american public opinion about the german voting system? Are they thinking it could never work for you because you are so "heterogenous", and we supposedly "homogeneous"? My (naive) understanding is, that if a bigger slice of the population (that seems to be very unhappy with congress at large) knew how participating parties in the german federal legislature shifted over time, they would welcome that flexibility to "punish" bad policies by actually voting them out. For instance is the evolution of the FDP known to the general public in the US? Americans have absolutely zero fucking clue about the political system of any country outside of their own, let alone a non-English-speaking one. There are a lot of Americans that genuinely believe that this country is the only free and democratic country in the world. I wouldn't be surprised if a poll of the American public showed that at least 40% thought that the Queen of England actually held sole political power and ran the country like it was still the Middle Ages. | ||
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