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On May 30 2014 11:41 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 11:24 Danglars wrote:On May 30 2014 10:40 Nyxisto wrote:On May 30 2014 10:31 Danglars wrote:On May 30 2014 09:30 Sermokala wrote:On May 30 2014 09:16 Mindcrime wrote:
I'm loling at the perceived influence of Ohio's coalminers. Democracy is a system to give smaller groups strength over the larger groups. If we're going to go in this direction, then may I say I'm damn glad we're a republic. He's not wrong. A democracy should not devolve into a "tyranny of the masses". That minorities are adequately represented seems to be a very reasonable goal for every functioning modern society. Well, maybe his initial statement struck me the wrong way. Indeed any government that gives smaller groups "strength" over larger groups is an oligarchic arrangement. Now if you hold the minority viewpoint in a republic of the people, by the people, and for the people, it won't carry the day. Protections from tyranny for those minorities, by all means, and protections of their rights, in this case using a strict construction of those prescriptive rights long known. Representation of their views should occur so much as they're able to gather support and persuade others to their stances. But practically speaking just giving everyone the same rights will not result in everyone having the same chance to succeed in reality. I feel like American conservatives often act like "hey, now group XY has their rights, why are they not happy?" To make sure that minorities have the same chances to succeed you'll have to do a little more than just make sure that they're technically fair represented.
'technically fairly represented' is further than the GOP has even attempted to go (democrats are getting much closer). Just look at the numbers for women in congress.
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I've been watching some cspan the last couple of weeks. It feels like congress was doing better than before; not sure why, Maybe it was just the bills under consideration.
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On May 30 2014 11:41 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 11:24 Danglars wrote:On May 30 2014 10:40 Nyxisto wrote:On May 30 2014 10:31 Danglars wrote:On May 30 2014 09:30 Sermokala wrote:On May 30 2014 09:16 Mindcrime wrote:
I'm loling at the perceived influence of Ohio's coalminers. Democracy is a system to give smaller groups strength over the larger groups. If we're going to go in this direction, then may I say I'm damn glad we're a republic. He's not wrong. A democracy should not devolve into a "tyranny of the masses". That minorities are adequately represented seems to be a very reasonable goal for every functioning modern society. Well, maybe his initial statement struck me the wrong way. Indeed any government that gives smaller groups "strength" over larger groups is an oligarchic arrangement. Now if you hold the minority viewpoint in a republic of the people, by the people, and for the people, it won't carry the day. Protections from tyranny for those minorities, by all means, and protections of their rights, in this case using a strict construction of those prescriptive rights long known. Representation of their views should occur so much as they're able to gather support and persuade others to their stances. But practically speaking just giving everyone the same rights will not result in everyone having the same chance to succeed in reality. I feel like American conservatives often act like "hey, now group XY has their rights, why are they not happy?" To make sure that minorities have the same chances to succeed you'll have to do a little more than just make sure that they're technically fair represented. As an aside, conservatives and liberals frequently mean two different things when they speak of rights. But we can get into that in time if necessary. I don't even know if there's another big social conservative in this thread for that topic.
Conservatives acknowledge that not everybody has the "same chance to succeed in reality." We drone on and on about giving the less advantaged (or born into advantage) members of society the opportunities to succeed. But how to structure things so as to give most the ability to climb up with as little of the hindrances as possible? When can we even agree that two groups are fairly represented? What are the practical limits to absolutely equal representation, even considering apathy in voting?
On the other side, different patterns of behavior and life choices ALSO have an effect on whether or not individuals succeed. That's the conservative's argument for freedom, and if that wasn't true, much of the argument for great personal freedom is gone. "Just because they have the same rights doesn't mean they have the same chance to succeed" is partially wrapped up in that. I've in the past argued for increased choices in education to keep, for example, inner city blacks from being forced into the same backward public schools and generations lost. Voucher programs and ideas in that vein are part of the answer to giving traditionally disadvantaged groups a leg up as well as a generational climb for the better.
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charter schools dont have better outcomes than regular public schools
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Do they have a better record than particularly poor public schools that parents might want their kids out of? Because if they're as good as a normal school that's still a gain.
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Its incredibly sad that "public schools" have a bad undertone in the US... Imho it should be 100% normal to attend a public school and get your Basic education in a public School.
Public Schools being bad is just a clear sign, that your system has serious issues.
In Switzerland we look funny at people that didn't go to public school... because it most likely means that this person was too troublesome to actually make it there. Even in higher education, many private Schools are just tought off as easier way to get a degree because they won't fail you, because after all you paid them...
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On May 30 2014 18:48 Velr wrote:
In Switzerland we look funny at people that didn't go to public school... because it most likely means that this person was too troublesome to actually make it there. Even in higher education, many private Schools are just tought off as easier way to get a degree because they won't fail you, because after all you paid them...
Well in the UK, public school means private school. Don't ask.
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Shinseki has officially resigned. I wonder if he's simply falling on his sword or if he actually knew anything about what was going down in Phoenix.
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On May 31 2014 00:23 farvacola wrote:
Shinseki has officially resigned. I wonder if he's simply falling on his sword or if he actually knew anything about what was going down in Phoenix.
He may have known something but I can't imagine he would ever stand idly by and watch it happen. He has been working incredibly hard working on veterans issues.
My father is one of those who he reached out to and was finally able to begin getting treatment for Agent Orange exposure. Unfortunately, he is also one of many waiting months between appointments.
I'm one who is personally thankful that something is finally being done. I imagine he will still be doing a lot of work behind the scenes.
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Good to see that equal protection under the law isn't dead yet.
CENTRAL ISLIP, N.Y. (CBSNewYork/AP) – A Long Island police lieutenant has been awarded $1.35 million in his racial discrimination lawsuit against the village of Freeport.
Lt. Christopher Barrella, who is white, had accused the village of awarding the police chief’s job to a Hispanic officer with few qualifications and a lower test score.
Following the federal jury’s decision Thursday, Barrella described the process as trying but said he always had faith in the jury system.
“It’s really a good feeling to be validated, and I am incredibly appreciative that the jury saw it my way,” Barrella told 1010 WINS’ Mona Rivera.
The former mayor, Andrew Hardwick, was a defendant in the case but could not be reached for comment. He was the village’s first black mayor.
Barrella had charged that Hardwick terminated and demoted qualified, experienced non-Hispanic whites. Barrella charged that Hardwick illegaly chose Miguel Bermudez for the job of police chief.
The current Freeport Mayor Robert Kennedy, who is white, said the jury got it wrong.
“I have the utmost confidence in Chief Bermudez, who’s probably one of the finest chiefs of Freeport village that we’ve ever had,” Kennedy told Rivera.
The jury award includes $200,000 in punitive damages.
Source.
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On May 30 2014 18:48 Velr wrote:
Its incredibly sad that "public schools" have a bad undertone in the US... Imho it should be 100% normal to attend a public school and get your Basic education in a public School.
Public Schools being bad is just a clear sign, that your system has serious issues.
Two things here:
1) Nobody "looks funny" at a U.S. public school student or thinks them lesser... if anything, it can be a significant badge of pride for someone to come from a poor public school and make it to a good college/job. Undeniably the schools have problems, but it's certainly "normal" to have gone to a public school, with half or more students at the most elite colleges having come from public schools.
2) A big part of the problem with public schools in the U.S. is a function of the extraordinary decentralization of all things in the country. If the federal, or even state, government simply allotted school budgets based on number of students, you would have a lot less crap schools. But every little area funds its own local schools, so poor areas have crap schools, rich areas tend to have really good public schools, and mixed rich/poor areas can have weird effects (in my town, the result was a well-funded but colossally mismanaged school with insane levels of administrator pay but really poor performance).
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It is worth mentioning that the US is one of the last countries in the world to use a localized, levy-based public school funding system.
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On May 31 2014 01:13 xDaunt wrote:Good to see that equal protection under the law isn't dead yet. Show nested quote +CENTRAL ISLIP, N.Y. (CBSNewYork/AP) – A Long Island police lieutenant has been awarded $1.35 million in his racial discrimination lawsuit against the village of Freeport.
Lt. Christopher Barrella, who is white, had accused the village of awarding the police chief’s job to a Hispanic officer with few qualifications and a lower test score.
Following the federal jury’s decision Thursday, Barrella described the process as trying but said he always had faith in the jury system.
“It’s really a good feeling to be validated, and I am incredibly appreciative that the jury saw it my way,” Barrella told 1010 WINS’ Mona Rivera.
The former mayor, Andrew Hardwick, was a defendant in the case but could not be reached for comment. He was the village’s first black mayor.
Barrella had charged that Hardwick terminated and demoted qualified, experienced non-Hispanic whites. Barrella charged that Hardwick illegaly chose Miguel Bermudez for the job of police chief.
The current Freeport Mayor Robert Kennedy, who is white, said the jury got it wrong.
“I have the utmost confidence in Chief Bermudez, who’s probably one of the finest chiefs of Freeport village that we’ve ever had,” Kennedy told Rivera.
The jury award includes $200,000 in punitive damages. Source. I saw that one too. Bravo, and 3 cheers for a jury of your peers.
On May 30 2014 17:10 IgnE wrote:
charter schools dont have better outcomes than regular public schools Nice one-liner response but entirely insufficient. We don't live in a world where there's any choice period for low-income parents of inner city children. If you think your son or daughter's teacher is rotten, well too bad. It will come as poor consolation if someone asserts, "Don't worry--if you could choose another school for your child, I'm positive it will be just as shitty! So you don't really need that choice, anyways!"
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On May 31 2014 01:20 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 18:48 Velr wrote:
Its incredibly sad that "public schools" have a bad undertone in the US... Imho it should be 100% normal to attend a public school and get your Basic education in a public School.
Public Schools being bad is just a clear sign, that your system has serious issues.
Two things here: 1) Nobody "looks funny" at a U.S. public school student or thinks them lesser... if anything, it can be a significant badge of pride for someone to come from a poor public school and make it to a good college/job. Undeniably the schools have problems, but it's certainly "normal" to have gone to a public school, with half or more students at the most elite colleges having come from public schools. 2) A big part of the problem with public schools in the U.S. is a function of the extraordinary decentralization of all things in the country. If the federal, or even state, government simply allotted school budgets based on number of students, you would have a lot less crap schools. But every little area funds its own local schools, so poor areas have crap schools, rich areas tend to have really good public schools, and mixed rich/poor areas can have weird effects (in my town, the result was a well-funded but colossally mismanaged school with insane levels of administrator pay but really poor performance).
1) That's total bull. The hell people don't look down on public school educations?!? Sen. Ted Cruz (R) didn't even want to study with people from 'lesser ivy's' let alone public schools. The badge of honor is specifically because the public school system is looked at as not even remotely preparing students for higher education. Would be interesting to see the average amount of money spent on students from public schools who made it into elite institutions. You have a source on your half or more stat?
2) This was pretty right on. The discrepancies in funding that can happen in schools just a handful of miles away is pretty disgusting. Add that to the pattern of re-segregation occurring in many schools and you can see how the US education system is taking 2 steps backward for every step forward lately.
@Xdaunt @Danglers
You guys would of never made it as black people pre 1960. The case you describe was standard operating procedure for the previous 200+ years except instead of the person getting hosed being white they were non-white and they never even got to a courtroom let alone won a case...
We are so far from having equality under the law in so many areas it's disgusting to me that you would point at this case as evidence of the contrary.
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On May 31 2014 04:16 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 01:20 Yoav wrote:On May 30 2014 18:48 Velr wrote:
Its incredibly sad that "public schools" have a bad undertone in the US... Imho it should be 100% normal to attend a public school and get your Basic education in a public School.
Public Schools being bad is just a clear sign, that your system has serious issues.
Two things here: 1) Nobody "looks funny" at a U.S. public school student or thinks them lesser... if anything, it can be a significant badge of pride for someone to come from a poor public school and make it to a good college/job. Undeniably the schools have problems, but it's certainly "normal" to have gone to a public school, with half or more students at the most elite colleges having come from public schools. 2) A big part of the problem with public schools in the U.S. is a function of the extraordinary decentralization of all things in the country. If the federal, or even state, government simply allotted school budgets based on number of students, you would have a lot less crap schools. But every little area funds its own local schools, so poor areas have crap schools, rich areas tend to have really good public schools, and mixed rich/poor areas can have weird effects (in my town, the result was a well-funded but colossally mismanaged school with insane levels of administrator pay but really poor performance). 1) That's total bull. The hell people don't look down on public school educations?!? Sen. Ted Cruz (R) didn't even want to study with people from 'lesser ivy's' let alone public schools. The badge of honor is specifically because the public school system is looked at as not even remotely preparing students for higher education. Would be interesting to see the average amount of money spent on students from public schools who made it into elite institutions. You have a source on your half or more stat? 2) This was pretty right on. The discrepancies in funding that can happen in schools just a handful of miles away is pretty disgusting. Add that to the pattern of re-segregation occurring in many schools and you can see how the US education system is taking 2 steps backward for every step forward lately. @Xdaunt @Danglers You guys would of never made it as black people pre 1960. The case you describe was standard operating procedure for the previous 200+ years except instead of the person getting hosed being white they were non-white and they never even got to a courtroom let alone won a case... We are so far from having equality under the law in so many areas it's disgusting to me that you would point at this case as evidence of the contrary.
Doesn't matter. For some people, just one corresponding data point is vindicating for their entire worldview. Snow in April? Confirmation that global warming is a hoax. One report comes out stating humans are only a minor contributor to climate change? Confirmation that climate change is a global conspiracy. Unqualified minority gets a spot over a more qualified "white" candidate? Proof that affirmative action has run amok and now whites are being persecuted. Gold skyrockets in price? Looks like we're turning into Zimbabwe. Obama voted for Assault Weapon Ban as a senator? Obama's going to take all your guns and ammo as President... in his second term... or maybe his last day in office... IT'S COMING SHEEPLE!
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On May 31 2014 05:03 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 04:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 31 2014 01:20 Yoav wrote:On May 30 2014 18:48 Velr wrote:
Its incredibly sad that "public schools" have a bad undertone in the US... Imho it should be 100% normal to attend a public school and get your Basic education in a public School.
Public Schools being bad is just a clear sign, that your system has serious issues.
Two things here: 1) Nobody "looks funny" at a U.S. public school student or thinks them lesser... if anything, it can be a significant badge of pride for someone to come from a poor public school and make it to a good college/job. Undeniably the schools have problems, but it's certainly "normal" to have gone to a public school, with half or more students at the most elite colleges having come from public schools. 2) A big part of the problem with public schools in the U.S. is a function of the extraordinary decentralization of all things in the country. If the federal, or even state, government simply allotted school budgets based on number of students, you would have a lot less crap schools. But every little area funds its own local schools, so poor areas have crap schools, rich areas tend to have really good public schools, and mixed rich/poor areas can have weird effects (in my town, the result was a well-funded but colossally mismanaged school with insane levels of administrator pay but really poor performance). 1) That's total bull. The hell people don't look down on public school educations?!? Sen. Ted Cruz (R) didn't even want to study with people from 'lesser ivy's' let alone public schools. The badge of honor is specifically because the public school system is looked at as not even remotely preparing students for higher education. Would be interesting to see the average amount of money spent on students from public schools who made it into elite institutions. You have a source on your half or more stat? 2) This was pretty right on. The discrepancies in funding that can happen in schools just a handful of miles away is pretty disgusting. Add that to the pattern of re-segregation occurring in many schools and you can see how the US education system is taking 2 steps backward for every step forward lately. @Xdaunt @Danglers You guys would of never made it as black people pre 1960. The case you describe was standard operating procedure for the previous 200+ years except instead of the person getting hosed being white they were non-white and they never even got to a courtroom let alone won a case... We are so far from having equality under the law in so many areas it's disgusting to me that you would point at this case as evidence of the contrary. Doesn't matter. For some people, just one corresponding data point is vindicating for their entire worldview. Snow in April? Confirmation that global warming is a hoax. One report comes out stating humans are only a minor contributor to climate change? Confirmation that climate change is a global conspiracy. Unqualified minority gets a spot over a more qualified "white" candidate? Proof that affirmative action has run amok and now whites are being persecuted. Gold skyrockets in price? Looks like we're turning into Zimbabwe. Obama voted for Assault Weapon Ban as a senator? Obama's going to take all your guns and ammo as President... in his second term... or maybe his last day in office... IT'S COMING SHEEPLE!
Slightly ironic that more guns and ammo will have been bought/sold under the Obama admin than any previous admin ever. Also that you can carry your gun more places now than you could before the Obama admin.
If Obama is supposed to be the 'most anti-gun president ever' he sure is doing a shitty job. Reagan signed more to restrict gun rights than Obama has...
The only reason more guns and ammo isn't being sold today is that the manufacturers just can't keep up. Manufacturers have in effect actually done more to restrict gun ownership than Obama...
Obama (and the lunatic rhetoric) has probably done more to increase the amount of guns sold than all of the advertising and endorsements have in the last decade.
But it all fits the theme you outlined. "Reality? Bah! It's over-rated! I proudly prefer my ignorance bubble!"
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On May 31 2014 04:16 GreenHorizons wrote:
@Xdaunt @Danglers
You guys would of never made it as black people pre 1960. The case you describe was standard operating procedure for the previous 200+ years except instead of the person getting hosed being white they were non-white and they never even got to a courtroom let alone won a case...
I wouldn't have made it very far as a Jew in a Nazi Germany, either. Chalk up another GreenHorizons comment to the annals of irrelevance.
We are so far from having equality under the law in so many areas it's disgusting to me that you would point at this case as evidence of the contrary.
You clearly don't even know what "equality under the law" means. It means that the law applies equally to everyone. It does not mean that the law guarantees equal outcomes for everyone. Of course, liberals have a tendency of seeing injustice in every inequality, so I'm not surprised that you'd be confused.
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On May 31 2014 05:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 05:03 aksfjh wrote:On May 31 2014 04:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 31 2014 01:20 Yoav wrote:On May 30 2014 18:48 Velr wrote:
Its incredibly sad that "public schools" have a bad undertone in the US... Imho it should be 100% normal to attend a public school and get your Basic education in a public School.
Public Schools being bad is just a clear sign, that your system has serious issues.
Two things here: 1) Nobody "looks funny" at a U.S. public school student or thinks them lesser... if anything, it can be a significant badge of pride for someone to come from a poor public school and make it to a good college/job. Undeniably the schools have problems, but it's certainly "normal" to have gone to a public school, with half or more students at the most elite colleges having come from public schools. 2) A big part of the problem with public schools in the U.S. is a function of the extraordinary decentralization of all things in the country. If the federal, or even state, government simply allotted school budgets based on number of students, you would have a lot less crap schools. But every little area funds its own local schools, so poor areas have crap schools, rich areas tend to have really good public schools, and mixed rich/poor areas can have weird effects (in my town, the result was a well-funded but colossally mismanaged school with insane levels of administrator pay but really poor performance). 1) That's total bull. The hell people don't look down on public school educations?!? Sen. Ted Cruz (R) didn't even want to study with people from 'lesser ivy's' let alone public schools. The badge of honor is specifically because the public school system is looked at as not even remotely preparing students for higher education. Would be interesting to see the average amount of money spent on students from public schools who made it into elite institutions. You have a source on your half or more stat? 2) This was pretty right on. The discrepancies in funding that can happen in schools just a handful of miles away is pretty disgusting. Add that to the pattern of re-segregation occurring in many schools and you can see how the US education system is taking 2 steps backward for every step forward lately. @Xdaunt @Danglers You guys would of never made it as black people pre 1960. The case you describe was standard operating procedure for the previous 200+ years except instead of the person getting hosed being white they were non-white and they never even got to a courtroom let alone won a case... We are so far from having equality under the law in so many areas it's disgusting to me that you would point at this case as evidence of the contrary. Doesn't matter. For some people, just one corresponding data point is vindicating for their entire worldview. Snow in April? Confirmation that global warming is a hoax. One report comes out stating humans are only a minor contributor to climate change? Confirmation that climate change is a global conspiracy. Unqualified minority gets a spot over a more qualified "white" candidate? Proof that affirmative action has run amok and now whites are being persecuted. Gold skyrockets in price? Looks like we're turning into Zimbabwe. Obama voted for Assault Weapon Ban as a senator? Obama's going to take all your guns and ammo as President... in his second term... or maybe his last day in office... IT'S COMING SHEEPLE! Slightly ironic that more guns and ammo will have been bought/sold under the Obama admin than any previous admin ever. Also that you can carry your gun more places now than you could before the Obama admin. If Obama is supposed to be the 'most anti-gun president ever' he sure is doing a shitty job. Reagan signed more to restrict gun rights than Obama has... The only reason more guns and ammo isn't being sold today is that the manufacturers just can't keep up. Manufacturers have in effect actually done more to restrict gun ownership than Obama... Obama (and the lunatic rhetoric) has probably done more to increase the amount of guns sold than all of the advertising and endorsements have in the last decade. But it all fits the theme you outlined. "Reality? Bah! It's over-rated! I proudly prefer my ignorance bubble!"
Mainly because every time he tries to touch the topic, the NRA and its lobby corps strike down anything remotely close to advancing gun control.
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On May 31 2014 06:08 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 04:16 GreenHorizons wrote:
@Xdaunt @Danglers
You guys would of never made it as black people pre 1960. The case you describe was standard operating procedure for the previous 200+ years except instead of the person getting hosed being white they were non-white and they never even got to a courtroom let alone won a case... I wouldn't have made it very far as a Jew in a Nazi Germany, either. Chalk up another GreenHorizons comment to the annals of irrelevance. Show nested quote +We are so far from having equality under the law in so many areas it's disgusting to me that you would point at this case as evidence of the contrary. You clearly don't even know what "equality under the law" means. It means that the law applies equally to everyone. It does not mean that the law guarantees equal outcomes for everyone. Of course, liberals have a tendency of seeing injustice in every inequality, so I'm not surprised that you'd be confused.
I'm not touching the Nazi reference... Just wow...
If you think 'the law applies equally to everyone' or did in some mythical warped time, I am actually kind of sad for you. For someone actively employed in the legal field, to be so grossly ignorant of how 'the law' has been/is used, and the historical and perverse nature of inequality in legislation all the way through to execution, is truly disturbing.
The fact that you point to the case you did, as some beacon of hope that 'equal protection under the law is not dead yet', leaves a rancid taste in my mouth. But yeah I'm just another confused liberal...
+ Show Spoiler + I guess the conversation is over though since you went straight to the Nazi reference...
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