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On November 16 2012 06:41 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 06:40 m4inbrain wrote:Then don't make it mandatory That's actually pretty easy. Germany just did that, worked out great. I know, it's the same in France. A professionnal army can be of use.
Well, i would even vote for ditching the military completely (except maybe a small reactionary force). I don't see the use, they don't accomplish anything but getting dragged into wars we don't want to fight. But meh.
Btw, a friend of mine served in the french foreign legion, said they were hard dogs. Just to say it. ^^
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On November 15 2012 10:41 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. And here... we... go... + Show Spoiler +The entire situation there is fucked up. Israel completely fucked over Palestine because of them being backed by the UK and took far more land than they should have with the treaty, and Palestine handled it just as badly by bombing Israeli civilian centers. I think honestly the most ridiculous thing is that people think Israel is completely innocent here. Not to say Hamas is something I support though.
Honestly that's probably the one region in the Middle East that needs the most intervention if anything. Best of luck to that entire reason. This petty hatred between these two nations is ridiculous.
I don't want to start an argument, but...
When Israel was being founded, the Israeli government extended their hand to the Palestinians, inviting them in to live in Israel, and they spit in Israel's face. This isn't commonly known, for some reason.
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On November 16 2012 06:39 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 06:37 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:35 WhiteDog wrote:On November 16 2012 06:33 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:30 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:16 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:10 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:06 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:04 m4inbrain wrote:On November 16 2012 06:01 Goozen wrote:
[quote]
Linking a picture with no reliable source means nothing at all. Also Hamas targets civilians so i assume you pray that they get delt with also, right? Yeah. Why take the blame for something, if you just could point fingers. Right? It's getting tiresome. Not saying that i agree with NesquiK (would have to read up on that particular topic) - but at some point you should really start to open your eyes. Read what i posted in the edit, picture was from 2006, and yes civilians to die ive seen pictures of coffee shops hit by suicide bombers with limbs and body parts all over the place, linking it wont me any more "right" what's your opinion on the white phosphorous air bursts israel shot that burned people down to their bones? do you think that is ok to do? do you think that is something a morally superiors military should do? enough of the "yeah but they did this!" shit i want your opinion. I never Israel didn't do this, i said they didnt target civilians, were they hurt? yes and its regrettable. The white phosphorus is used to provide cover from enemy fire and my guess is if they knew the so many civilians would be hit it wouldn't have been used. However im sure they knew there would be some casualties but if i have to choose my citizens and my soldiers over those or my enemy you know who i will pick. When you fight against a group that acts in civilian populations and uses this to their full advantage civilians will die. this is what i assumed, you don't see them as civilians but enemies. your strange assumption that every Palestinian is the enemy and wants you to die is delusional. you have drank the kool aid my friend. your military makes the enemies then dehumanizes them. it's a really sad situation. So if i had to choose a life of say a swede or a Israeli soldier i should choose the swede? Hamas actions have popular support and were elected by a majority so its hard for me to see them as innocent or worth the death of Israeli soldiers. Of course ? A soldier is supposed to give his life for his country, a civilian didn't ask for shit. Clearly you are forgetting that military service is mandatory here. That why nothing breaks public morale faster the the deaths of soldiers. Then don't make it mandatory, if you send your youth to the battle field it's on you. Is this the reason why you accept anything ? Ho an IDF soldier shot a little girl, poor guy he is just a young boy on his military service. Doesn't change, if you are at war, you are responsible for your action as a soldier. Also there are plenty of ways to evade the military service, the young french jew kid who goes over to Israel for his military service is not an innocent poor guy obligated by law for me.
Because we need the manpower of a mandatory service so we dont get destroyed. i dont think i can emphasize this enough, the army is here so we arent killed, simple as that. i wish we wouldn't need a army but we do and because it was my duty to defend my country i never dreamed of evading service, and its not easy to do.
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On November 16 2012 06:44 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 06:37 m4inbrain wrote:On November 16 2012 06:33 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:30 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:16 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:10 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:06 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:04 m4inbrain wrote:On November 16 2012 06:01 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 05:57 NesquiKGG wrote:http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/148158_465559463485074_831201824_n.jpg What kind of Humans are these Israelis?..... Where are the F**king Human rights? America Bombed and killed thousands of innocent iraqis to free them from Saddam... but where is America now? this is rly getting ugly for Israel and i pray to GOD that someone gonna deal with them soon so they feel what these little kids felt when they got killed .. Amen!!!!!! Linking a picture with no reliable source means nothing at all. Also Hamas targets civilians so i assume you pray that they get delt with also, right? Yeah. Why take the blame for something, if you just could point fingers. Right? It's getting tiresome. Not saying that i agree with NesquiK (would have to read up on that particular topic) - but at some point you should really start to open your eyes. Read what i posted in the edit, picture was from 2006, and yes civilians to die ive seen pictures of coffee shops hit by suicide bombers with limbs and body parts all over the place, linking it wont me any more "right" what's your opinion on the white phosphorous air bursts israel shot that burned people down to their bones? do you think that is ok to do? do you think that is something a morally superiors military should do? enough of the "yeah but they did this!" shit i want your opinion. I never Israel didn't do this, i said they didnt target civilians, were they hurt? yes and its regrettable. The white phosphorus is used to provide cover from enemy fire and my guess is if they knew the so many civilians would be hit it wouldn't have been used. However im sure they knew there would be some casualties but if i have to choose my citizens and my soldiers over those or my enemy you know who i will pick. When you fight against a group that acts in civilian populations and uses this to their full advantage civilians will die. this is what i assumed, you don't see them as civilians but enemies. your strange assumption that every Palestinian is the enemy and wants you to die is delusional. you have drank the kool aid my friend. your military makes the enemies then dehumanizes them. it's a really sad situation. So if i had to choose a life of say a swede or a Israeli soldier i should choose the swede? Hamas actions have popular support and were elected by a majority so its hard for me to see them as innocent or worth the death of Israeli soldiers. What if the Israeli just shot a WP grenade into a civilian area, and the swede shot back? Is it still the swede that should die in your eyes? One last time, the IDF and your government commit as much atrocities (beginning from stealing credit cards to plain murder) as the hamas. What you should do is to despise these actions, regardless of who they're coming from. Yet, you despise hamas, and justify the IDF. Do you even get, why there will be never peace with that opinion? Please answer that question, its actually meant honest. All the cases of people who have been found guilty of anything from theft till murder have been jailed and rightfully so. I do believe in high standards but not at the cost of the life or safety of Israelis. If the Palestinians believed the same and had a higher value for life instead of sending people to do attacks that result in their death i believe peace would come a lot faster.
Then you are responsible for your wars. If as the strongest power in the middle east you can't put an end to all that and settle down for a discussion, all this is your fault. You kill 10 times more palestinians that Israelis are killed, and you wonder why they hate you and want your country to disappear.
It's on you.
Also the idea that with slightly smaller army you would get instantly killed is full of shit, and says a lot on how Israel thinks itself as a victim when it's a bully since almost fifty years. You are not a poor country, you are not a weak country, and you are not on the brink of destruction.
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All the cases of people who have been found guilty of anything from theft till murder have been jailed and rightfully so. I do believe in high standards but not at the cost of the life or safety of Israelis. If the Palestinians believed the same and had a higher value for life instead of sending people to do attacks that result in their death i believe peace would come a lot faster.
Do you even write what you read? You believe in high standards, but as soon as your soldiers get shot at, you ditch that "believe" and just go for a killing spree? And for the umpteenth time, i'm not discussing hamas/palestines, stop pointing at them. As i said threehundredandthirtytwelve times, it's you in this thread who needs to wake up. As soon as there is a palestine guy with an opinion similar to yours, i will argue against him as well. For now, there's the IDF and their "crimes" in the room. Not hamas.
You actually don't have any standard, mate. A standard would actually hold even if the enemy plays dirty. You just want to sound nice, nothing more.
Edit: of course it's "read what you write", but meh. That's my personal artistic freedom.
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On November 16 2012 06:44 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 06:37 m4inbrain wrote:On November 16 2012 06:33 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:30 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:16 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:10 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:06 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:04 m4inbrain wrote:On November 16 2012 06:01 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 05:57 NesquiKGG wrote:http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/148158_465559463485074_831201824_n.jpg What kind of Humans are these Israelis?..... Where are the F**king Human rights? America Bombed and killed thousands of innocent iraqis to free them from Saddam... but where is America now? this is rly getting ugly for Israel and i pray to GOD that someone gonna deal with them soon so they feel what these little kids felt when they got killed .. Amen!!!!!! Linking a picture with no reliable source means nothing at all. Also Hamas targets civilians so i assume you pray that they get delt with also, right? Yeah. Why take the blame for something, if you just could point fingers. Right? It's getting tiresome. Not saying that i agree with NesquiK (would have to read up on that particular topic) - but at some point you should really start to open your eyes. Read what i posted in the edit, picture was from 2006, and yes civilians to die ive seen pictures of coffee shops hit by suicide bombers with limbs and body parts all over the place, linking it wont me any more "right" what's your opinion on the white phosphorous air bursts israel shot that burned people down to their bones? do you think that is ok to do? do you think that is something a morally superiors military should do? enough of the "yeah but they did this!" shit i want your opinion. I never Israel didn't do this, i said they didnt target civilians, were they hurt? yes and its regrettable. The white phosphorus is used to provide cover from enemy fire and my guess is if they knew the so many civilians would be hit it wouldn't have been used. However im sure they knew there would be some casualties but if i have to choose my citizens and my soldiers over those or my enemy you know who i will pick. When you fight against a group that acts in civilian populations and uses this to their full advantage civilians will die. this is what i assumed, you don't see them as civilians but enemies. your strange assumption that every Palestinian is the enemy and wants you to die is delusional. you have drank the kool aid my friend. your military makes the enemies then dehumanizes them. it's a really sad situation. So if i had to choose a life of say a swede or a Israeli soldier i should choose the swede? Hamas actions have popular support and were elected by a majority so its hard for me to see them as innocent or worth the death of Israeli soldiers. What if the Israeli just shot a WP grenade into a civilian area, and the swede shot back? Is it still the swede that should die in your eyes? One last time, the IDF and your government commit as much atrocities (beginning from stealing credit cards to plain murder) as the hamas. What you should do is to despise these actions, regardless of who they're coming from. Yet, you despise hamas, and justify the IDF. Do you even get, why there will be never peace with that opinion? Please answer that question, its actually meant honest. All the cases of people who have been found guilty of anything from theft till murder have been jailed and rightfully so. I do believe in high standards but not at the cost of the life or safety of Israelis. If the Palestinians believed the same and had a higher value for life instead of sending people to do attacks that result in their death i believe peace would come a lot faster.
Do you even see what you are writing? You see Israel as a superior race and if you wanna speak about high standards than it should applicable everywhere, even when your father is found guilty. That's the real definition of high standards and making exception to it makes them not so high anymore. Yeah, supremacism is somewhat of an integral part of your people, but that doesn't justify it.
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On November 16 2012 06:41 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 06:39 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:36 Art.FeeL wrote:On November 16 2012 06:33 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:30 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:16 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:10 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:06 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:04 m4inbrain wrote:On November 16 2012 06:01 Goozen wrote:
[quote]
Linking a picture with no reliable source means nothing at all. Also Hamas targets civilians so i assume you pray that they get delt with also, right? Yeah. Why take the blame for something, if you just could point fingers. Right? It's getting tiresome. Not saying that i agree with NesquiK (would have to read up on that particular topic) - but at some point you should really start to open your eyes. Read what i posted in the edit, picture was from 2006, and yes civilians to die ive seen pictures of coffee shops hit by suicide bombers with limbs and body parts all over the place, linking it wont me any more "right" what's your opinion on the white phosphorous air bursts israel shot that burned people down to their bones? do you think that is ok to do? do you think that is something a morally superiors military should do? enough of the "yeah but they did this!" shit i want your opinion. I never Israel didn't do this, i said they didnt target civilians, were they hurt? yes and its regrettable. The white phosphorus is used to provide cover from enemy fire and my guess is if they knew the so many civilians would be hit it wouldn't have been used. However im sure they knew there would be some casualties but if i have to choose my citizens and my soldiers over those or my enemy you know who i will pick. When you fight against a group that acts in civilian populations and uses this to their full advantage civilians will die. this is what i assumed, you don't see them as civilians but enemies. your strange assumption that every Palestinian is the enemy and wants you to die is delusional. you have drank the kool aid my friend. your military makes the enemies then dehumanizes them. it's a really sad situation. So if i had to choose a life of say a swede or a Israeli soldier i should choose the swede? Hamas actions have popular support and were elected by a majority so its hard for me to see them as innocent or worth the death of Israeli soldiers. Anwar al-Awlaki said the same thing about Americans. That made him a terrorist. If the majority of Israelis think like that, than we have a problem. I never said they are legitimate targets and i wont say ever say that. What i am saying is if i have to choose the life of a Palestinian civilian or Israel soldier i would choose the soldier. You also said that it was hard for your to see Palestinian civilians as innocent, and if someone isn't innocent he has to be guilty, no?
I will be honest, every time there is a attack and people are killed its hard for me to see them as innocent, but i do my best to contain my rage and think logically and luckily those in charge dont let their emotions get the best of them.
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On November 16 2012 06:50 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 06:41 Art.FeeL wrote:On November 16 2012 06:39 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:36 Art.FeeL wrote:On November 16 2012 06:33 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:30 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:16 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:10 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:06 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:04 m4inbrain wrote:
[quote]
Yeah. Why take the blame for something, if you just could point fingers. Right? It's getting tiresome. Not saying that i agree with NesquiK (would have to read up on that particular topic) - but at some point you should really start to open your eyes. Read what i posted in the edit, picture was from 2006, and yes civilians to die ive seen pictures of coffee shops hit by suicide bombers with limbs and body parts all over the place, linking it wont me any more "right" what's your opinion on the white phosphorous air bursts israel shot that burned people down to their bones? do you think that is ok to do? do you think that is something a morally superiors military should do? enough of the "yeah but they did this!" shit i want your opinion. I never Israel didn't do this, i said they didnt target civilians, were they hurt? yes and its regrettable. The white phosphorus is used to provide cover from enemy fire and my guess is if they knew the so many civilians would be hit it wouldn't have been used. However im sure they knew there would be some casualties but if i have to choose my citizens and my soldiers over those or my enemy you know who i will pick. When you fight against a group that acts in civilian populations and uses this to their full advantage civilians will die. this is what i assumed, you don't see them as civilians but enemies. your strange assumption that every Palestinian is the enemy and wants you to die is delusional. you have drank the kool aid my friend. your military makes the enemies then dehumanizes them. it's a really sad situation. So if i had to choose a life of say a swede or a Israeli soldier i should choose the swede? Hamas actions have popular support and were elected by a majority so its hard for me to see them as innocent or worth the death of Israeli soldiers. Anwar al-Awlaki said the same thing about Americans. That made him a terrorist. If the majority of Israelis think like that, than we have a problem. I never said they are legitimate targets and i wont say ever say that. What i am saying is if i have to choose the life of a Palestinian civilian or Israel soldier i would choose the soldier. You also said that it was hard for your to see Palestinian civilians as innocent, and if someone isn't innocent he has to be guilty, no? I will be honest, every time there is a attack and people are killed its hard for me to see them as innocent, but i do my best to contain my rage and think logically and luckily those in charge dont let their emotions get the best of them.
Wow, you are so brainwashed, it's not even funny anymore...
Edit: funny actually, how history repeats itself.
i dont see peace in the near future.
Yeah. Not with that opinion, that's for sure.
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On November 16 2012 06:48 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 06:44 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:37 m4inbrain wrote:On November 16 2012 06:33 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:30 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:16 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:10 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:06 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:04 m4inbrain wrote:On November 16 2012 06:01 Goozen wrote:
[quote]
Linking a picture with no reliable source means nothing at all. Also Hamas targets civilians so i assume you pray that they get delt with also, right? Yeah. Why take the blame for something, if you just could point fingers. Right? It's getting tiresome. Not saying that i agree with NesquiK (would have to read up on that particular topic) - but at some point you should really start to open your eyes. Read what i posted in the edit, picture was from 2006, and yes civilians to die ive seen pictures of coffee shops hit by suicide bombers with limbs and body parts all over the place, linking it wont me any more "right" what's your opinion on the white phosphorous air bursts israel shot that burned people down to their bones? do you think that is ok to do? do you think that is something a morally superiors military should do? enough of the "yeah but they did this!" shit i want your opinion. I never Israel didn't do this, i said they didnt target civilians, were they hurt? yes and its regrettable. The white phosphorus is used to provide cover from enemy fire and my guess is if they knew the so many civilians would be hit it wouldn't have been used. However im sure they knew there would be some casualties but if i have to choose my citizens and my soldiers over those or my enemy you know who i will pick. When you fight against a group that acts in civilian populations and uses this to their full advantage civilians will die. this is what i assumed, you don't see them as civilians but enemies. your strange assumption that every Palestinian is the enemy and wants you to die is delusional. you have drank the kool aid my friend. your military makes the enemies then dehumanizes them. it's a really sad situation. So if i had to choose a life of say a swede or a Israeli soldier i should choose the swede? Hamas actions have popular support and were elected by a majority so its hard for me to see them as innocent or worth the death of Israeli soldiers. What if the Israeli just shot a WP grenade into a civilian area, and the swede shot back? Is it still the swede that should die in your eyes? One last time, the IDF and your government commit as much atrocities (beginning from stealing credit cards to plain murder) as the hamas. What you should do is to despise these actions, regardless of who they're coming from. Yet, you despise hamas, and justify the IDF. Do you even get, why there will be never peace with that opinion? Please answer that question, its actually meant honest. All the cases of people who have been found guilty of anything from theft till murder have been jailed and rightfully so. I do believe in high standards but not at the cost of the life or safety of Israelis. If the Palestinians believed the same and had a higher value for life instead of sending people to do attacks that result in their death i believe peace would come a lot faster. Then you are responsible for your wars. If as the strongest power in the middle east you can't put an end to all that and settle down for a discussion, all this is your fault. You kill 10 times more palestinians that Israelis are killed, and you wonder why they hate you and want your country to disappear. It's on you. Also the idea that with slightly smaller army you would get instantly killed is full of shit, and says a lot on how Israel thinks itself as a victim when it's a bully since almost fifty years. You are not a poor country, you are not a weak country, and you are not on the brink of destruction.
There have been many discussion none of which have led to anything, in fact the Palestinian demands have even increased, for example untill the 90's there was no demand to split Jerusalem. the best we can hope for is a lack of violence, i dont see peace in the near future. But this is a different issue that not on topic to this thread.
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On November 16 2012 06:48 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +All the cases of people who have been found guilty of anything from theft till murder have been jailed and rightfully so. I do believe in high standards but not at the cost of the life or safety of Israelis. If the Palestinians believed the same and had a higher value for life instead of sending people to do attacks that result in their death i believe peace would come a lot faster.
Do you even write what you read? You believe in high standards, but as soon as your soldiers get shot at, you ditch that "believe" and just go for a killing spree? And for the umpteenth time, i'm not discussing hamas/palestines, stop pointing at them. As i said threehundredandthirtytwelve times, it's you in this thread who needs to wake up. As soon as there is a palestine guy with an opinion similar to yours, i will argue against him as well. For now, there's the IDF and their "crimes" in the room. Not hamas. You actually don't have any standard, mate. A standard would actually hold even if the enemy plays dirty. You just want to sound nice, nothing more. Edit: of course it's "read what you write", but meh. That's my personal artistic freedom.
If we didnt have any standards why would we not bomb every Hamas building and kill all of their members despite the amount of civilians who wold die? Having moral standers us important, but i dont think its worth dying for them, even more so when you know that your enemy will take full advantage of them and use them to harm. What i mean is i will do my most to not kill civilians in order to hurt my enemy but i wont let my citizens or soldiers die for them.
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On November 16 2012 06:47 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 06:39 WhiteDog wrote:On November 16 2012 06:37 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:35 WhiteDog wrote:On November 16 2012 06:33 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:30 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:16 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:10 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:06 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:04 m4inbrain wrote:
[quote]
Yeah. Why take the blame for something, if you just could point fingers. Right? It's getting tiresome. Not saying that i agree with NesquiK (would have to read up on that particular topic) - but at some point you should really start to open your eyes. Read what i posted in the edit, picture was from 2006, and yes civilians to die ive seen pictures of coffee shops hit by suicide bombers with limbs and body parts all over the place, linking it wont me any more "right" what's your opinion on the white phosphorous air bursts israel shot that burned people down to their bones? do you think that is ok to do? do you think that is something a morally superiors military should do? enough of the "yeah but they did this!" shit i want your opinion. I never Israel didn't do this, i said they didnt target civilians, were they hurt? yes and its regrettable. The white phosphorus is used to provide cover from enemy fire and my guess is if they knew the so many civilians would be hit it wouldn't have been used. However im sure they knew there would be some casualties but if i have to choose my citizens and my soldiers over those or my enemy you know who i will pick. When you fight against a group that acts in civilian populations and uses this to their full advantage civilians will die. this is what i assumed, you don't see them as civilians but enemies. your strange assumption that every Palestinian is the enemy and wants you to die is delusional. you have drank the kool aid my friend. your military makes the enemies then dehumanizes them. it's a really sad situation. So if i had to choose a life of say a swede or a Israeli soldier i should choose the swede? Hamas actions have popular support and were elected by a majority so its hard for me to see them as innocent or worth the death of Israeli soldiers. Of course ? A soldier is supposed to give his life for his country, a civilian didn't ask for shit. Clearly you are forgetting that military service is mandatory here. That why nothing breaks public morale faster the the deaths of soldiers. Then don't make it mandatory, if you send your youth to the battle field it's on you. Is this the reason why you accept anything ? Ho an IDF soldier shot a little girl, poor guy he is just a young boy on his military service. Doesn't change, if you are at war, you are responsible for your action as a soldier. Also there are plenty of ways to evade the military service, the young french jew kid who goes over to Israel for his military service is not an innocent poor guy obligated by law for me. Because we need the manpower of a mandatory service so we dont get destroyed. i dont think i can emphasize this enough, the army is here so we arent killed, simple as that. i wish we wouldn't need a army but we do and because it was my duty to defend my country i never dreamed of evading service, and its not easy to do.
And again you strike with your delusions. Poor Israel, everyone is against it because they simply want a piece of land to play on. This victimizing image you are trying to send to the world really is outdated. Jews were persecuted through the history but you can't say that today. That tone really is present in the majority of Israeli posters here too. Like those explaining how terrible it is to hear alarms or how you live in everyday fear because of those barbars on the other side of the fence. I agree, but at least show some humanism and realize that some people have lost their children or friends. What I am trying to explain is that nowadays when we hear about palestinians being killed it's more or less a normal thing, but if there are wounded Israelis, we are all like: poor them. Bias at its best. Neither thing is good, but the minimum we can do is at to at least try to be objective
EDIT: One more thing, you often speak in the future tense: they will do this, they will do that, are you a prophet?
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On November 16 2012 07:00 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 06:48 m4inbrain wrote:All the cases of people who have been found guilty of anything from theft till murder have been jailed and rightfully so. I do believe in high standards but not at the cost of the life or safety of Israelis. If the Palestinians believed the same and had a higher value for life instead of sending people to do attacks that result in their death i believe peace would come a lot faster.
Do you even write what you read? You believe in high standards, but as soon as your soldiers get shot at, you ditch that "believe" and just go for a killing spree? And for the umpteenth time, i'm not discussing hamas/palestines, stop pointing at them. As i said threehundredandthirtytwelve times, it's you in this thread who needs to wake up. As soon as there is a palestine guy with an opinion similar to yours, i will argue against him as well. For now, there's the IDF and their "crimes" in the room. Not hamas. You actually don't have any standard, mate. A standard would actually hold even if the enemy plays dirty. You just want to sound nice, nothing more. Edit: of course it's "read what you write", but meh. That's my personal artistic freedom. If we didnt have any standards why would we not bomb every Hamas building and kill all of their members despite the amount of civilians who wold die? Having moral standers us important, but i dont think its worth dying for them, even more so when you know that your enemy will take full advantage of them and use them to harm. What i mean is i will do my most to not kill civilians in order to hurt my enemy but i wont let my citizens or soldiers die for them.
Actually yes. That's what a standard is. You hold it high even though you know the enemy will take advantage. Thats the point of a frikkin standard. Thats why its called standard and not "something i do as long everything looks good". Oh and btw, the fact that you actually said more than once "you will kill an innocent civilian before you let a soldier of yours getting killed" makes you not only look retarded, but actually shows that you have no standard at all.
Edit: that went wrong, feel. ^^
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On November 16 2012 07:04 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 07:00 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:48 m4inbrain wrote:All the cases of people who have been found guilty of anything from theft till murder have been jailed and rightfully so. I do believe in high standards but not at the cost of the life or safety of Israelis. If the Palestinians believed the same and had a higher value for life instead of sending people to do attacks that result in their death i believe peace would come a lot faster.
Do you even write what you read? You believe in high standards, but as soon as your soldiers get shot at, you ditch that "believe" and just go for a killing spree? And for the umpteenth time, i'm not discussing hamas/palestines, stop pointing at them. As i said threehundredandthirtytwelve times, it's you in this thread who needs to wake up. As soon as there is a palestine guy with an opinion similar to yours, i will argue against him as well. For now, there's the IDF and their "crimes" in the room. Not hamas. You actually don't have any standard, mate. A standard would actually hold even if the enemy plays dirty. You just want to sound nice, nothing more. Edit: of course it's "read what you write", but meh. That's my personal artistic freedom. If we didnt have any standards why would we not bomb every Hamas building and kill all of their members despite the amount of civilians who wold die? Having moral standers us important, but i dont think its worth dying for them, even more so when you know that your enemy will take full advantage of them and use them to harm. What i mean is i will do my most to not kill civilians in order to hurt my enemy but i wont let my citizens or soldiers die for them. Actually yes. That's what a standard is. You hold it high even though you know the enemy will take advantage. Thats the point of a frikkin standard. Thats why its called standard and not "something i do as long everything looks good". Oh and btw, the fact that you actually said more than once "you will kill an innocent civilian before you let a soldier of yours getting killed" makes you not only look retarded, but actually shows that you have no standard at all. Edit: that went wrong, feel. ^^
Firstly you are twisting what i said, i said if i had to choose the life of a Palestinian civilian or a Soldier (only one) id choose the soldier and a believe that if you were to ask most people they would say they prefer their own over a stranger. Second, Standards are not absolute or black/white. With that logic free press should be allowed to print anything they want (even if its slander of hurts people) as any limitation makes no longer free. I doubt we will agree on this but i dont see any issue with i doing the utmost to uphold my standards but not at the cost of my own life.
A example of this was during operation "cast led" all of the Hamas leadership was under the hospital and had Israel wanted to it could have killed them but as that cost of a few thousand civilians and as we know they didnt do this. and this without a doubt cost the lives of Israelis who were killed by Hamas since 2008. So yes there are standards and Israelis have died for them.
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On November 16 2012 07:04 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 07:00 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:48 m4inbrain wrote:All the cases of people who have been found guilty of anything from theft till murder have been jailed and rightfully so. I do believe in high standards but not at the cost of the life or safety of Israelis. If the Palestinians believed the same and had a higher value for life instead of sending people to do attacks that result in their death i believe peace would come a lot faster.
Do you even write what you read? You believe in high standards, but as soon as your soldiers get shot at, you ditch that "believe" and just go for a killing spree? And for the umpteenth time, i'm not discussing hamas/palestines, stop pointing at them. As i said threehundredandthirtytwelve times, it's you in this thread who needs to wake up. As soon as there is a palestine guy with an opinion similar to yours, i will argue against him as well. For now, there's the IDF and their "crimes" in the room. Not hamas. You actually don't have any standard, mate. A standard would actually hold even if the enemy plays dirty. You just want to sound nice, nothing more. Edit: of course it's "read what you write", but meh. That's my personal artistic freedom. If we didnt have any standards why would we not bomb every Hamas building and kill all of their members despite the amount of civilians who wold die? Having moral standers us important, but i dont think its worth dying for them, even more so when you know that your enemy will take full advantage of them and use them to harm. What i mean is i will do my most to not kill civilians in order to hurt my enemy but i wont let my citizens or soldiers die for them. Actually yes. That's what a standard is. You hold it high even though you know the enemy will take advantage. Thats the point of a frikkin standard. Thats why its called standard and not "something i do as long everything looks good". Oh and btw, the fact that you actually said more than once "you will kill an innocent civilian before you let a soldier of yours getting killed" makes you not only look retarded, but actually shows that you have no standard at all. Edit: that went wrong, feel. ^^
Not going to take sides here, since I feel the issue is way too complex and both sides have committed so many atrocities that it is impossible to tell the difference between them, but I don't really get this line of reasoning.
It is human nature to value the people closest to you more than complete strangers, let alone people you perceive (rightly or wrongly) to be enemies. If, hypothetically, you were in a store when it was held up at gunpoint, and the assailant said he was either going to kill your wife or the homeless guy outside, and the choice was yours, would you even think about it? Obviously the hypothetical breaks down when other courses of action present themselves, but to pretend like you value all human life equally is also "retarded," and just makes you sound warm and fuzzy.
There is a route to peace in the Middle East, and it's not through violence, but unfortunately no one has seen it yet and I doubt Israel or Palestine will ever see it. Until that point, you can't realistically expect either side to sit idly by and allow soldiers and civilians to be killed with absolutely no retaliation. People make it seem like it's a vicious cycle with the Palestinians attacking the Israelis, which causes the Israelis to retaliate, which causes the Palestinians to retaliate, etc. etc. but when the core of the issue lies with the existence of the actual country of Israel and the people that have lived there for 70 years now, it's not as simple as just "not sinking to their level." Some major compromises need to be made on both sides, and neither one is particularly ready for that.
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On November 16 2012 07:02 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 06:47 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:39 WhiteDog wrote:On November 16 2012 06:37 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:35 WhiteDog wrote:On November 16 2012 06:33 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:30 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:16 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:10 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:06 Goozen wrote:
[quote]
Read what i posted in the edit, picture was from 2006, and yes civilians to die ive seen pictures of coffee shops hit by suicide bombers with limbs and body parts all over the place, linking it wont me any more "right" what's your opinion on the white phosphorous air bursts israel shot that burned people down to their bones? do you think that is ok to do? do you think that is something a morally superiors military should do? enough of the "yeah but they did this!" shit i want your opinion. I never Israel didn't do this, i said they didnt target civilians, were they hurt? yes and its regrettable. The white phosphorus is used to provide cover from enemy fire and my guess is if they knew the so many civilians would be hit it wouldn't have been used. However im sure they knew there would be some casualties but if i have to choose my citizens and my soldiers over those or my enemy you know who i will pick. When you fight against a group that acts in civilian populations and uses this to their full advantage civilians will die. this is what i assumed, you don't see them as civilians but enemies. your strange assumption that every Palestinian is the enemy and wants you to die is delusional. you have drank the kool aid my friend. your military makes the enemies then dehumanizes them. it's a really sad situation. So if i had to choose a life of say a swede or a Israeli soldier i should choose the swede? Hamas actions have popular support and were elected by a majority so its hard for me to see them as innocent or worth the death of Israeli soldiers. Of course ? A soldier is supposed to give his life for his country, a civilian didn't ask for shit. Clearly you are forgetting that military service is mandatory here. That why nothing breaks public morale faster the the deaths of soldiers. Then don't make it mandatory, if you send your youth to the battle field it's on you. Is this the reason why you accept anything ? Ho an IDF soldier shot a little girl, poor guy he is just a young boy on his military service. Doesn't change, if you are at war, you are responsible for your action as a soldier. Also there are plenty of ways to evade the military service, the young french jew kid who goes over to Israel for his military service is not an innocent poor guy obligated by law for me. Because we need the manpower of a mandatory service so we dont get destroyed. i dont think i can emphasize this enough, the army is here so we arent killed, simple as that. i wish we wouldn't need a army but we do and because it was my duty to defend my country i never dreamed of evading service, and its not easy to do. And again you strike with your delusions. Poor Israel, everyone is against it because they simply want a piece of land to play on. This victimizing image you are trying to send to the world really is outdated. Jews were persecuted through the history but you can't say that today. That tone really is present in the majority of Israeli posters here too. Like those explaining how terrible it is to hear alarms or how you live in everyday fear because of those barbars on the other side of the fence. I agree, but at least show some humanism and realize that some people have lost their children or friends. What I am trying to explain is that nowadays when we hear about palestinians being killed it's more or less a normal thing, but if there are wounded Israelis, we are all like: poor them. Bias at its best. Neither thing is good, but the minimum we can do is at to at least try to be objective EDIT: One more thing, you often speak in the future tense: they will do this, they will do that, are you a prophet?
The reason we have this tone is because if they didnt attack us we wouldn't attack them. had they not been launching rockets they wouldn't have been bombed.
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On November 16 2012 07:18 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 07:04 m4inbrain wrote:On November 16 2012 07:00 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:48 m4inbrain wrote:All the cases of people who have been found guilty of anything from theft till murder have been jailed and rightfully so. I do believe in high standards but not at the cost of the life or safety of Israelis. If the Palestinians believed the same and had a higher value for life instead of sending people to do attacks that result in their death i believe peace would come a lot faster.
Do you even write what you read? You believe in high standards, but as soon as your soldiers get shot at, you ditch that "believe" and just go for a killing spree? And for the umpteenth time, i'm not discussing hamas/palestines, stop pointing at them. As i said threehundredandthirtytwelve times, it's you in this thread who needs to wake up. As soon as there is a palestine guy with an opinion similar to yours, i will argue against him as well. For now, there's the IDF and their "crimes" in the room. Not hamas. You actually don't have any standard, mate. A standard would actually hold even if the enemy plays dirty. You just want to sound nice, nothing more. Edit: of course it's "read what you write", but meh. That's my personal artistic freedom. If we didnt have any standards why would we not bomb every Hamas building and kill all of their members despite the amount of civilians who wold die? Having moral standers us important, but i dont think its worth dying for them, even more so when you know that your enemy will take full advantage of them and use them to harm. What i mean is i will do my most to not kill civilians in order to hurt my enemy but i wont let my citizens or soldiers die for them. Actually yes. That's what a standard is. You hold it high even though you know the enemy will take advantage. Thats the point of a frikkin standard. Thats why its called standard and not "something i do as long everything looks good". Oh and btw, the fact that you actually said more than once "you will kill an innocent civilian before you let a soldier of yours getting killed" makes you not only look retarded, but actually shows that you have no standard at all. Edit: that went wrong, feel. ^^ Firstly you are twisting what i said, i said if i had to choose the life of a Palestinian civilian or a Soldier (only one) id choose the soldier and a believe that if you were to ask most people they would say they prefer their own over a stranger. Second, Standards are not absolute or black/white. With that logic free press should be allowed to print anything they want (even if its slander of hurts people) as any limitation makes no longer free. I doubt we will agree on this but i dont see any issue with i doing the utmost to uphold my standards but not at the cost of my own life. A example of this was during operation "cast led" all of the Hamas leadership was under the hospital and had Israel wanted to it could have killed them but as that cost of a few thousand civilians and as we know they didnt do this. and this without a doubt cost the lives of Israelis who were killed by Hamas since 2008. So yes there are standards and Israelis have died for them.
Maybe there's a language barrier, but there is no twisting. I repeated what you said. Nothing more. You would kill an "enemy civilian" (and btw, as a former soldier, let me tell you that there is no such thing), to protect a soldier. I put it more bluntly, thats right, but it's not my problem if you can't deal with that, is it.
And no. If you ask a soldier, he will tell you that he won't shoot at civilians. As much as i don't like america's policies, even they tried to prevent situations like these (at least the soldiers on the ground, and yes, i fought alongside them). And no, it's not black and white, true. But it's not "i have standards as long as they don't try to kill me" either.
Oh and no. Israel could not have done that, bomb the hospital to the ground. Israel is doomed if they lose their support from the west.
Edit:
It is human nature to value the people closest to you more than complete strangers, let alone people you perceive (rightly or wrongly) to be enemies. If, hypothetically, you were in a store when it was held up at gunpoint, and the assailant said he was either going to kill your wife or the homeless guy outside, and the choice was yours, would you even think about it? Obviously the hypothetical breaks down when other courses of action present themselves, but to pretend like you value all human life equally is also "retarded," and just makes you sound warm and fuzzy.
Wow. You compare armed soldiers which are trained to kill, shooting at civilians with me chosing between my wife and a hobo in a robbery? Is it okay for you if a policeman kills your son because he punched another kid? Stupid reasoning, right? Think about it.
I won't even answer that, that "reasoning" is far beyond my understanding.
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sad.. I'm not taking any side but people dying always reflects desperation which is always sad. 
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On November 16 2012 07:02 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 06:47 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:39 WhiteDog wrote:On November 16 2012 06:37 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:35 WhiteDog wrote:On November 16 2012 06:33 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:30 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:16 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:10 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:06 Goozen wrote:
[quote]
Read what i posted in the edit, picture was from 2006, and yes civilians to die ive seen pictures of coffee shops hit by suicide bombers with limbs and body parts all over the place, linking it wont me any more "right" what's your opinion on the white phosphorous air bursts israel shot that burned people down to their bones? do you think that is ok to do? do you think that is something a morally superiors military should do? enough of the "yeah but they did this!" shit i want your opinion. I never Israel didn't do this, i said they didnt target civilians, were they hurt? yes and its regrettable. The white phosphorus is used to provide cover from enemy fire and my guess is if they knew the so many civilians would be hit it wouldn't have been used. However im sure they knew there would be some casualties but if i have to choose my citizens and my soldiers over those or my enemy you know who i will pick. When you fight against a group that acts in civilian populations and uses this to their full advantage civilians will die. this is what i assumed, you don't see them as civilians but enemies. your strange assumption that every Palestinian is the enemy and wants you to die is delusional. you have drank the kool aid my friend. your military makes the enemies then dehumanizes them. it's a really sad situation. So if i had to choose a life of say a swede or a Israeli soldier i should choose the swede? Hamas actions have popular support and were elected by a majority so its hard for me to see them as innocent or worth the death of Israeli soldiers. Of course ? A soldier is supposed to give his life for his country, a civilian didn't ask for shit. Clearly you are forgetting that military service is mandatory here. That why nothing breaks public morale faster the the deaths of soldiers. Then don't make it mandatory, if you send your youth to the battle field it's on you. Is this the reason why you accept anything ? Ho an IDF soldier shot a little girl, poor guy he is just a young boy on his military service. Doesn't change, if you are at war, you are responsible for your action as a soldier. Also there are plenty of ways to evade the military service, the young french jew kid who goes over to Israel for his military service is not an innocent poor guy obligated by law for me. Because we need the manpower of a mandatory service so we dont get destroyed. i dont think i can emphasize this enough, the army is here so we arent killed, simple as that. i wish we wouldn't need a army but we do and because it was my duty to defend my country i never dreamed of evading service, and its not easy to do. And again you strike with your delusions. Poor Israel, everyone is against it because they simply want a piece of land to play on. This victimizing image you are trying to send to the world really is outdated. Jews were persecuted through the history but you can't say that today. That tone really is present in the majority of Israeli posters here too. Like those explaining how terrible it is to hear alarms or how you live in everyday fear because of those barbars on the other side of the fence. I agree, but at least show some humanism and realize that some people have lost their children or friends. What I am trying to explain is that nowadays when we hear about palestinians being killed it's more or less a normal thing, but if there are wounded Israelis, we are all like: poor them. Bias at its best. Neither thing is good, but the minimum we can do is at to at least try to be objective EDIT: One more thing, you often speak in the future tense: they will do this, they will do that, are you a prophet?
Jews arent persecuted today? lol.thats why the shooting in france happened against jews, and the bomb in sweden against jews, and death threats against jews in denmark.
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On November 16 2012 07:19 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 07:02 Art.FeeL wrote:On November 16 2012 06:47 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:39 WhiteDog wrote:On November 16 2012 06:37 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:35 WhiteDog wrote:On November 16 2012 06:33 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:30 heliusx wrote:On November 16 2012 06:16 Goozen wrote:On November 16 2012 06:10 heliusx wrote:
[quote]
what's your opinion on the white phosphorous air bursts israel shot that burned people down to their bones? do you think that is ok to do? do you think that is something a morally superiors military should do? enough of the "yeah but they did this!" shit i want your opinion. I never Israel didn't do this, i said they didnt target civilians, were they hurt? yes and its regrettable. The white phosphorus is used to provide cover from enemy fire and my guess is if they knew the so many civilians would be hit it wouldn't have been used. However im sure they knew there would be some casualties but if i have to choose my citizens and my soldiers over those or my enemy you know who i will pick. When you fight against a group that acts in civilian populations and uses this to their full advantage civilians will die. this is what i assumed, you don't see them as civilians but enemies. your strange assumption that every Palestinian is the enemy and wants you to die is delusional. you have drank the kool aid my friend. your military makes the enemies then dehumanizes them. it's a really sad situation. So if i had to choose a life of say a swede or a Israeli soldier i should choose the swede? Hamas actions have popular support and were elected by a majority so its hard for me to see them as innocent or worth the death of Israeli soldiers. Of course ? A soldier is supposed to give his life for his country, a civilian didn't ask for shit. Clearly you are forgetting that military service is mandatory here. That why nothing breaks public morale faster the the deaths of soldiers. Then don't make it mandatory, if you send your youth to the battle field it's on you. Is this the reason why you accept anything ? Ho an IDF soldier shot a little girl, poor guy he is just a young boy on his military service. Doesn't change, if you are at war, you are responsible for your action as a soldier. Also there are plenty of ways to evade the military service, the young french jew kid who goes over to Israel for his military service is not an innocent poor guy obligated by law for me. Because we need the manpower of a mandatory service so we dont get destroyed. i dont think i can emphasize this enough, the army is here so we arent killed, simple as that. i wish we wouldn't need a army but we do and because it was my duty to defend my country i never dreamed of evading service, and its not easy to do. And again you strike with your delusions. Poor Israel, everyone is against it because they simply want a piece of land to play on. This victimizing image you are trying to send to the world really is outdated. Jews were persecuted through the history but you can't say that today. That tone really is present in the majority of Israeli posters here too. Like those explaining how terrible it is to hear alarms or how you live in everyday fear because of those barbars on the other side of the fence. I agree, but at least show some humanism and realize that some people have lost their children or friends. What I am trying to explain is that nowadays when we hear about palestinians being killed it's more or less a normal thing, but if there are wounded Israelis, we are all like: poor them. Bias at its best. Neither thing is good, but the minimum we can do is at to at least try to be objective EDIT: One more thing, you often speak in the future tense: they will do this, they will do that, are you a prophet? The reason we have this tone is because if they didnt attack us we wouldn't attack them. had they not been launching rockets they wouldn't have been bombed.
That way of thinking can be stretched way back. When you get deported and when you lose your land it is quite hard to accept all of that and say 'fine', you know? But yeah, you are pointing fingers again, aren't you?
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EPT
