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I now understand blizzards reasoning for the warhound.
If you go into the unit tester, any combination of tanks/hellions/thors you make will be OBLITERATED by immortals.
Blizzard probably added the anti-air warhound then went into the unit tester testing armies, and the mech armies kept getting owned by immortals.
So blizzard wanted a mech unit that can counter immortals.
And honestly, I feel fine as long as that is the concept of the warhound, and not some godlike marauder type unit.
Warhounds need to essentially be a counter to immortals, and nothing more. thats what warhounds need to be (pretty much) otherwise they are imbalanced.
Warhounds cannot be another marauder thats good against everything (thats what the marauders for), instead they can be a factory marauder thats good against ONLY immortals and nothing else.
I think the current version of the warhound is flawed in design because their statline cannot be balanced to be "ok" against zerg without being "overpowered" against protoss with free anti-mech missiles. No matter how you slice it if missiles are free ontop of their statline, then its either overpowered against toss or weak against zerg.
This is why I think the anti-mech missiles are flawed in design. Instead of making the warhound "anti-mech", it should become anti-shield and I think i know how to do that.
Post your ideas here for concepts that would make the warhound NOT overpowered, while still countering immortals.
Heres an idea i have. All protoss units have 1base armor. Heres an idea to make warhounds strong against immortals while weak against everything else. Make warhounds only attack its missiles but allow the missiles to target all units (essentially, the missiles are the warhounds attack), but make it fire those missiles EXTREMELY FRICKEN FAST but only do 2-3 damage. Maybe make each warhound attack launch 15 missiles that each do 2 damage, so 15x2 damage.
I know it sounds retarded seeing 15 missiles fly out for an attack but its literally the only way i can think of to balance this unit. This way the missiles do lots of damage to shields, but much less to protoss units after the shields are gone.
And against zerg the warhounds would do lots of overkill to zerglings (30 damage per attack) hopefully balancing the statline against zerglings.
This way warhounds would be nothing more than a shield destroyer and could be useful early game against zerg possibly. It would shoot extremely fast taking out the shields of immortals (which are the problem) and then after the shields of the immortals are gone, mech becomes viable again.
Then against zerg it would do fairly low damage to anything armored but it would be very big/beefy/tanking allowing it to "tank" banelings or what have you for the bigger bio/mech force
Im thinking you could even keep the ridiculous 220 health of the warhound as long as you nerfed the damage in this way. This way the warhound would do 50% less damage to zealots/stalkers/sentrys once the shields are gone.
This way warhounds could "counter" immortal shields, allowing mech to be ok against immortals, but they wouldnt obliterate sentrys/stalkers/zealots
EDIT: damage levels can be tweaked for balance, but the general idea is make the warhound do lots of damage to anything with 0base armor (shields, marines, zerglings) but weak damage to anything with 1base armor (roaches, queens, sentrys, stalkers, zealots, marauders). Then each warhound attack does like 30 damage so they overkill zerglings by alot hopefully making them not too strong against zerglings.
essentially, the warhound should be a unit that does TONS of damage to shields, but CRAPPY damage to nonshields.
In other words, lots of damage to anything with 0base armor
but bad damage to anything with 1 base armor. This means marauders would counter warhounds (because of 1base armor)
This means warhounds would be useful lategame against protoss if you are making a mech army, so you have lots of tanks and hellions and he has immortals? add in a couple warhounds and melt their shields
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[QUOTE]On September 07 2012 14:30 kaokentake wrote:
This way warhounds would be nothing more than a shield destroyer and could be useful early game against zerg possibly. It would shoot extremely fast taking out the shields of immortals (which are the problem) and then after the shields of the immortals are gone, mech becomes viable again.
the warhound should be nothing more than a shield destroyer? if the issue with going mech against toss was that simple, emp would solve everything, but obviously there is more to it than that.
chargelots are really strong against mech, as are archons and immortals. the new units totally revamp the entire concept of going mech vers P because a toss ground army without any air support will lose to a mech army (which is the way it should be if you ask me. mech should be extremely powerful and hard to break without air superiority). the tempest gives toss a way to fight back against the mech army by hitting it from long range.
saying that terran should get new units to fight against the WOL toss composition doesn't really help. Blizzard was trying to make mech viable vers toss toss in this game, hence the warhound.
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On September 07 2012 14:52 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 14:30 kaokentake wrote:
This way warhounds would be nothing more than a shield destroyer and could be useful early game against zerg possibly. It would shoot extremely fast taking out the shields of immortals (which are the problem) and then after the shields of the immortals are gone, mech becomes viable again. the warhound should be nothing more than a shield destroyer? if the issue with going mech against toss was that simple, emp would solve everything, but obviously there is more to it than that.
It is that simple. Sorry but its hard to add in EMP properly as mech against immortal/collossi. It really is that simple and mech/emp armies do beat immortals in the unit tester, but its just way too hard to get (harder than infestor/broodlord in a real game)
It truly IS that simple. Make warhounds deal tons of damage to shields, and you can go tank/hellion against protoss and it would be VIABLE because if the enemy makes immortals to counter your mech, you make warhounds to counter their immortals.
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the warhound, as they are right now, are pretty broken. maybe its not the right strats against them, but obviously they can come when usually hellions arrive. roaches are kinda good-ish against them, but don't stand up to that firepower, and lings get two shotted, at that firerate pretty bad. toss can do basically nothing to stop them, as they have 7 range and fast movement against lots and do massive missle dmg to stalkers.
I thought about a ghost-type of mech unit, giving it an ability much like the human magic tower from wc3. make each shot not only deal damage, but also steal like 10 or 5 shield/energy from spellcasters or toss units. nerf its damage a bit, so its still a fast, long range tank if neccessary, that really is evil against spellcasters or protoss, but doesn't take them appart just when 4 of em walk up your ramp on minute 6.
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hmm terrible idea imo because then warhound will be a pretty useless unit that was designed just to counter 1 unit. It would make the warhound even more of a terrible unnit then it already is (from a design point of view, we all know it OP right now). Mech wasnt completely hard counter by immortal. It was mainly the chargelots because it was able to kill the hellion really fast and in a direct engagement, the hellion splash couldnt be utlized very effectivly and fell apart vs chargelots. Mech really didnt have anything to counter the chargelots. With the battle hellion to soak the damage from all the protoss unit, I believe the point of having the warhound isnt necessary anymore. Because if you just que your tanks fire, then you shouldnt have much problem vs immortal because battle hellion should be there to soak all the damage.
Also, widow mine damage goes through the shield of immortals. So there really isnt any reason to have warhound. The only reason warhound is there that I can see is that it stop all kind of blink stalker all-in because blink stalker all-in completely counters any sort of mech opening.
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someone in another thread suggested giving warhounds the widow mine as an ability, and i thought it was pretty clever so here's my extension of the idea:
nerf their DPS and make them cost 1 more food, but give them the ability to construct widow mines (similar to how the reaver constructed scarabs but slower obviously) and then deploy them like spider mines. haywire missiles can stay or leave but if it stays it needs to either be a much longer cooldown, a constructable like the widow mine (maybe occupies a sort of 'inventory slot' which can only be one or the other at one time?), or less damage. it gets to keep its range and speed so they're easy to position and can take potshots if they need to, but if they don't have tanks or bio to fall back to they'll just get mauled by the opponent's DPS units.
i like this idea, dunno how do-able it is, but either way terran does not need another 'core unit' and this sounds to me like a decent way to turn it into a powerful support unit that is vulnerable on its own.
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This warhound is stupid, if player want to destroy tank,immortal. They already have marauder/thor/ghost to do that.
Maybe it would better if warhound can build widow mine. and weaker like goliah.
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A unit that you're describing which does rapid pinprick attacks, sounds awfully similar to the marine.
Under this condition, the warhound would just end up as a larger, armored marine but less versatility. And be completely useless versus zerg, if all they're good for is just sapping shields.
It still should be something that has a use in every matchup, not just confined to a very narrow niche.
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Warhound adjustments are easy enough to do.
Movement to 2.25. Damage to 15. Haywire to 50 damage, leave the autocast in. Supply to 3.
Seige tanks to 2 supply. Mines to 1 supply (produced in pairs like zerglings).
That'll be quite comfortable. I'd put money it ends up looking at least a little similar to that.
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thread should be deleted, just another QQ, clearly biased thread, analysis below, didnt do the entire post cause its 6 am here.
Warhounds need to essentially be a counter to immortals, and nothing more. thats what warhounds need to be (pretty much) otherwise they are imbalanced.
Rauders are against everything? yea i guess rauders are great vs chargelots, archons, immortals, air units, etc...
Warhounds cannot be another marauder thats good against everything (thats what the marauders for), instead they can be a factory marauder thats good against ONLY immortals and nothing else.
Thats what marines are for.
I think the current version of the warhound is flawed in design because their statline cannot be balanced to be "ok" against zerg without being "overpowered" against protoss with free anti-mech missiles. No matter how you slice it if missiles are free ontop of their statline, then its either overpowered against toss or weak against zerg.
Only T AA is vikings, unless u go BC's, can we not get 1 AA unit?
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IMHO make a warhound suck against most things that aren't immortals simply by changing its type to light (so that it doesn't receive bonus damage from immortals) and reducing the warhound's attack damage to 10 (so that both with its main attack and with its ability it doesn't trigger immortal's shields). Then adjust the attack speed to ensure that warhound is just a reactionary unit to mass immortals/stalkers, and is not build in large quantities otherwise.
This way the core mech unit will be tank (tanks are awesome to watch and bring very interesting gameplay), and warhounds/(battle)helions will be built mostly as meat shields for tanks with ratio between warhounds/(battle)helions depending on whether a protoss player is stalker/immortal or zealot/archon heavy.
Edit: Also make warhounds take less gas and more minerals, so that they don't take gas from tank production.
Edit 2: Summary of changes (please read the text above for the reasoning):
Armor type changed to light.
Damage reduced to 10.
Mineral cost increased by 50.
Gas cost reduced by 50.
Attack speed somewhat increased.
Problem solved.
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I heard emp is pretty good against immortals...
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I'd actually also would change how the unit moves. Make the accerlation really slow so you can't run away as easy wiht the warhound.
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Ok so why not remove Thor's strike cannons and give it haywire missiles and balance it out somehow? I don't get it. There seems to be so much blizzard can do to enable mech TvP, even Battle hellion + mines could be ok.. There must be some philosophy problem in there.
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On September 07 2012 19:45 Lumi wrote:
I heard emp is pretty good against immortals...
No, Terran need to a-move and win against their hard-counters. Just like Colossus can a-move against Vikings and win.
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stop thinking that bio is the solution, the dev stated it clearly, they don't want to see every damn game with bio-boring-ball , this is why they want to make mech viable, the problem is that they make it in the wrong way, just buff the damn TANKS!!
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Just give it a weapon that ignores Protoss shields and kills Protoss units when their health is reduced to 0 regardless of their shield energy?
2 Shotting Zerglings is fine, 2 Shotting Marines without Combat Shield is definitely OP.
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(deleted, wrong subject I think sorry)
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So the Warhound is an anti-immortal unit. The Immortal is an anti-tank unit. One absurd unit to counter another absurd unit just because Mr. Dustin Browder don't like Tanks. Nice Dustin Browder, nice. With that kind of forsight can you see passed your fat hairy gut to see your dick?
User was banned for this post.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I know everyone has their opinion on the warhound but we should really keep it to one thread.
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EPT
