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Patchzergs, Real or Imagniary? - Page 10

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WindWolf
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Sweden11767 Posts
August 20 2012 05:41 GMT
#181
I would not call SortOf a PatchZerg. Yes he has more achievements post 1.4.3.2 then before, but if we look at E-Sport SM (Swedish Championship), all but the last of the qualifier events was played pre 1.4.3.2, and then 1 Protoss, 2 Terrans (SjoW and ThorZaIN) and 4 Zergs qualified for the championship finals (and winner of the last qualifier event, the Zerg Forsen, had come second twice pre-patch)

And sample size is to small to make a conclusion of the situation
EZ4ENCE
ProfSc
Profile Joined April 2012
United States51 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 05:53:28
August 20 2012 05:52 GMT
#182
In general, I think claiming any causality stemming from "statistics" is not very rigorous. I'm not enough of a statistician to recommend anything, but I'm sure there are better ways of searching for relationships other than pure win/loss ratios. Regression analysis comes to mind, though developing a sufficient model would probably be extremely difficult. My opinion: As has been hinted at in this thread, not enough variables have been accounted for to support OP's claims about so-called "patchzergs."

Edit: Typo replaced "through" with "though."
"War is a matter of vital importance to the state."
Xcobidoo
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden1871 Posts
August 20 2012 05:56 GMT
#183
I know that the "conclusion" was that they were not born from the patch but we all know that OP really just want to stir the pot a bit so let's do it.
How come so many old zergs started dropping games after the last patch? Could they not handle their new OP-status so they had to calm down a bit so that Blizzard would not nerf them instantly? Most new badasses, from Korea or elsewhere, seem to come from nowhere (PartinG, Seed, Symbol, viOLet, Squirtle, Stephano etc.) most of them have been good for a long time but something makes a radical change for them. Be it a change of environment, a change of practice routine or a bit of both.
The fact that many good zergs started to fall off and a new "generation" popped up recently points to one thing and one thing only. Players like SortOf and VortiX quickly adapted to a fresh style of zerg whilst others like Leenock and Ret started to suck. Last season's GSL was the perfect spread of race in the ro8 (possibly ever) and the season before there were no Zergs in the top 8, none. Sure there's always going to be whine from the community, that is expected when Lose McForfeit can't deal with patching in platinum but this shit has gone way too far now and makes LR threads almost impossible to read, something that was hard to begin with already...
Supreme Intergalactic Commander
Aristotle7
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States120 Posts
August 20 2012 07:23 GMT
#184
Why is +14% change in winrate not a proof for patchzergs?

That kind of a change seems rather suspicious.
Master Terran on NA
Kreb
Profile Joined September 2010
4834 Posts
August 20 2012 07:30 GMT
#185
The stats is good at showing one thing: that the stats arent good enough to show anything.

The fact that theres up to 8% difference in mirror matchups between the data points, and upwards of 15% difference in ZvP (which was a largely unaffected matchup by the queen buffs) just shows those stats arent reliable. Its both a too small sample size, at also given that people "figure out" how to beat old builds and come up with new builds all the time, someones strength in a matchup can differ from week to week.

You can guess that some of their recent success in ZvT was due to the patch, but such a conclusion is more due to the patch notes than due to their win rates.
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
August 20 2012 07:36 GMT
#186
Jaedong is clearly a PatchZerg.
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
Orracle
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States314 Posts
August 20 2012 07:42 GMT
#187
Has anyone actually ran this theory through a correlation test? Using this patch as a factor, see if it actually is significant. I would do so, but I don't have any software on this computer at the moment to do it with, nor do I really feel like digging up the stats.
InVerno
Profile Joined May 2011
258 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 07:55:06
August 20 2012 07:54 GMT
#188
What the hell...This thread is so biased, so answers cant be different. Its not "how much" they win, +\- X% , is vs WHO they win the difference between the past and now. The 1.43 is only a little part of this, and only affect TvZ. Bad players now can survive more easily vs terran harassment and proceed to the "hurr durr gameplan of champions", inf+ broodlors and take a chance to win against everyone because that composition is silly to control, and really hard to counter no matter who are the players on the field. All patchzergs can reach the lategame, the game never ends before the 20min mark even if their opponents are better players. Every game, no matter who you are, you will reach the bl+inf and take a ticket to the lottery against vortex or hunter seeker missile. Sure, if you are a good zerg you will have a better eco and you will be able to respawn 2,3,4 times your fantastic lategame comp, but if you're a bad zerg you've at least one try. There isnt a statistic on TLPD showing the actual skillcap of the zerg race, and this is the real problem.
InfusedTT.DaZe
Profile Joined August 2010
Romania693 Posts
August 20 2012 07:59 GMT
#189
loooooooool, is this a troll? The only one you could pick from that list that truly COULD be (but he sure is not) a patch zerg is Sortof, slivko and vortix are around the scene for a long time and had alot of results before this...
Also Suppy is a better example of this than slivko and vortix
"Echoes of past events nudge the tiller on my present course, I await its reflection in the future"
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
August 20 2012 08:00 GMT
#190
On August 20 2012 16:36 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Jaedong is clearly a PatchZerg.


Oh god that guy is soooo aweful. If Zerg would take any skill, he would be the 18276918976489712468715479816245 worst player in the world! I mean, if Flash or Bisu just trained Zerg for a day, they would win 7289417726171264871264 tournaments per second!!!
Benjamin99
Profile Joined April 2012
4176 Posts
August 20 2012 08:01 GMT
#191
On August 20 2012 14:32 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 13:22 pOnarreT wrote:
On August 20 2012 13:19 IPA wrote:
"Patchzerg" is frankly insulting to a lot of players who have been working incredibly hard to improve. They don't deserve it and I wish the community was above this kind of bs. But it's not.



Actually, if this thread wasn't created, a lot wouldn't even know what "patchzergs" are. I question the real motives of the OP.


Agreed. This thread seems like a very sneaky and underhanded way of encouraging this so-called "discussion" and focusing attention on the recent results of these three players.

If they weren't regarded as patchzergs before this thread, they probably will be (to a larger extent) now.


It defiantly is. The OP should be ashamed. The OP manage to balance whine and player bash while disguise it in a form of a discussion thread.
Stephano & Jaedong <-- The Pain Train. Polt and Innovation to EG plz
Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 08:06:55
August 20 2012 08:05 GMT
#192
On August 20 2012 09:32 bonedOUT wrote:
I think that the patch affected zvt the most. You can see that they all improved quite a bit (5.4%, 7.7%, and an astounding 14%). patchzerg it is!


and the -14 for zvp ?
these 3 was good long before patch, no idea about JRecco


On August 20 2012 17:01 Benjamin99 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 14:32 Talin wrote:
On August 20 2012 13:22 pOnarreT wrote:
On August 20 2012 13:19 IPA wrote:
"Patchzerg" is frankly insulting to a lot of players who have been working incredibly hard to improve. They don't deserve it and I wish the community was above this kind of bs. But it's not.



Actually, if this thread wasn't created, a lot wouldn't even know what "patchzergs" are. I question the real motives of the OP.


Agreed. This thread seems like a very sneaky and underhanded way of encouraging this so-called "discussion" and focusing attention on the recent results of these three players.

If they weren't regarded as patchzergs before this thread, they probably will be (to a larger extent) now.


It defiantly is. The OP should be ashamed. The OP manage to balance whine and player bash while disguise it in a form of a discussion thread.



you read the topic ? his conclusion is they are NO patchzergs ... and the discussion says along time they are so he defend them...
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
Benjamin99
Profile Joined April 2012
4176 Posts
August 20 2012 08:09 GMT
#193
On August 20 2012 17:05 CoR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 09:32 bonedOUT wrote:
I think that the patch affected zvt the most. You can see that they all improved quite a bit (5.4%, 7.7%, and an astounding 14%). patchzerg it is!


and the -14 for zvp ?
these 3 was good long before patch, no idea about JRecco


Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 17:01 Benjamin99 wrote:
On August 20 2012 14:32 Talin wrote:
On August 20 2012 13:22 pOnarreT wrote:
On August 20 2012 13:19 IPA wrote:
"Patchzerg" is frankly insulting to a lot of players who have been working incredibly hard to improve. They don't deserve it and I wish the community was above this kind of bs. But it's not.



Actually, if this thread wasn't created, a lot wouldn't even know what "patchzergs" are. I question the real motives of the OP.


Agreed. This thread seems like a very sneaky and underhanded way of encouraging this so-called "discussion" and focusing attention on the recent results of these three players.

If they weren't regarded as patchzergs before this thread, they probably will be (to a larger extent) now.


It defiantly is. The OP should be ashamed. The OP manage to balance whine and player bash while disguise it in a form of a discussion thread.



you read the topic ? his conclusion is they are NO patchzergs ... and the discussion says along time they are so he defend them...


Well that's the disguise buddy. This thread is actually really mean towards those 3 players mentioned. You just have to look true the smokescreen
Stephano & Jaedong <-- The Pain Train. Polt and Innovation to EG plz
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
August 20 2012 08:12 GMT
#194
This is pretty cool and a nice way to look at it. As others pointed out this method is far from rigorous enough to say much but it's a nice start. I actually wonder if digging through their ladder winrates would help here since it would give a larger picture of how they perform against a relatively stable if slightly worse quality group of opponents.

Ultimately there is also a large problem in separating what is actual increase in skill and what is something intrinsic to the game, and it's never going to be possible to find a way to normalize for that.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
furo
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany449 Posts
August 20 2012 08:15 GMT
#195
your samplesizes are too small to talk about 5% changes
one bad day in a final losing 0-3 could change a 30:20 score (when winning 3-0) to a 27:23. thats more than a 5% difference in the MU and its only one bo5 that changed it.

i agree that these players worked hard and deserved the good PR.
i agree that sniperqueens and speedolords helped them alot.
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
August 20 2012 08:19 GMT
#196
Patch zerg is a simple degenerating term used by those who wish to blame lack of success of their terran players on the opponent who beats them. Kind of like how we like to blame illegal immigrants from taking all our jobs and ruining our culture. It's an almost fictional scapegoat, but one that terran players need to keep up morale. Because people hate focussing on their own players mistakes and own up to them, they look for something else to blame.

It's a belittling of the new foreign zerg players' achievements. And it would be rather lame if it weren't for all the zerg players winning money to stuff their ears from the whining.

Vortix just has a really odd style that most people aren't used to. That's why his winrate is so high.
Ktk
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Korea (South)753 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 08:22:36
August 20 2012 08:20 GMT
#197
Forgotten the Korean scene already? Old topic of discussion.

"Patchzergs" aka "potential new zerg bonjwas" also included Moon (ofc he is experienced, but wowed people with unpredictable wins), Byul (OK before, exploded, where is he now), Freaky(unique style, see prev), some people even consider Symbol and Life overrated too.
Whenever other zergs like Monster, Line, or Golden won against anyone with a reputation people just pointed at the patch, just because they weren't winning as much before the patch...

That's what the last patch was supposed to do anyways, have Zergs win some more. No bias about it, it was a Zerg buff, that's what Zerg buffs do. That's what buffs for any race do... This one might have been more significant, but no need to point out that a player won because of a game mechanic, because it's how the game works and there's nothing outside of practicing (and sending an angry letter to David Kim when you get pro maybe) you can do about it

This lasted for afaik a notable chunk of the last GSTL. No need to cry imbalance now, we've have been doing this for a loong time.
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
August 20 2012 08:23 GMT
#198
I don't see that anyone else has brought this up in the thread...but the so called patchzergs all seem to be pretty young guys, yeah? Did no one else consider that they have simply had way more time to practice since they've been on summer break from school? I mean, being able to practice only a couple hours a day during school versus being able to practice basically ALL day makes a huge difference.

Obviously the patch helped against a particular Terran opening, as it was designed to, but I would think that maybe more practice time paying off is the real reason. Besides, Korean players have always seemed to struggle against the much less well known EU/NA players simply because they have no idea about playstyles and can't really prepare.

Food for thought, anyway.
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
peidongyang
Profile Joined January 2009
Canada2084 Posts
August 20 2012 08:24 GMT
#199
I'd say patchzergs are pretty complex

sometimes they do legitimately make it seem they play like bonjwas and sometimes its like ?1a army and lose Oo
the throws never bothered me anyway
Hypemeup
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden2783 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 08:25:08
August 20 2012 08:24 GMT
#200
The buff certainly helped these up and comming players out a lot. Top tier kr terran players who were untouchable by all but the top foreginer zergs suddenly play really close games vs these newcommer zergs. It is not fair to discredit the newcomers just because of the patch though, but it most def helped them progess much faster.

I still prefer my drawing I made in the IEM thread while waiting for the finals ;d

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
1A the entire army to deal with 1 drop, (eye)patch zerg style!
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