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On August 20 2012 12:17 BanditX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:11 architecture wrote:
Does anyone actually think in terms of mechanical skill and game understanding that foreign P/Z players are just way better than foreign T players? I see people hinting at this idea, and it's completely absurd.
How about the more likely explanation: the skill cap currently for Z/P is far lower, especially regarding army control.
Z/P is not OP, in the sense that Z is so strong that the numbers are fundamentally skewed their way. It's about the ease of reaching that cap and the extent of mechanical ability that the cap forces from the opponent.
The success of foreign Z is largely due to the lower cap. Stephano himself has said that he's playing Z because it's the easiest at that level of play. If true, this is an inherent imbalance in the game. Players with higher skill should beat players with lower skill. If one race requires more skill to be on the same level as a race that requires less skill, it won't be played/seen/win with any frequency. Either the race that requires more skill needs to scale exponentially to the point where is just hands down dominants everything else, or there will be no point to playing something that requires more to achieve what others are doing for less.
1. My point is that there's not necessarily an imbalance. Everyone has seen how strong topend T is. If the theoretical maximum for one race is 90, and for another 100, but it's very very hard to get there, which would you play? Things like, the conditions, the map, the matchup, all come into effect whether or not 100 can be hit that day.
2. People aren't purely rational. Would most foreign T see more success as Z, possibly P? Probably. But if you have to train 8+ hours a day, wouldn't you want to spend the time on something you enjoy? If you enjoy T more than Z, though you would have a better shot at tournament results, which would you do?
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On August 20 2012 12:21 BBMorti wrote:
So much flawed logic from all these (mainly) Terran players. Consider ONE thing at the very least.. How come, Idra, Dimaga, TLO, Nestea, DRG, Leenoch, Sheth etc. etc. etc. etc. .. This is especially valid for all the Korean zergs. How come they are not facerolling everything after this latest patch?
People struggle so much with change that they can't accept a new name doing well, and they oversee even facts as obvious as the tons of top zergs that underperform after this magical patch in the frenzy to diminish what the up and commers are accomplishing.
Boggles the mind.
The balance of Starcraft is maybe fine at the pro level. Doesn't mean the other 99% of Terran players aren't struggling. It would be unwise of Blizzard to not look into something a third of their player base is upset about.
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On August 20 2012 12:11 architecture wrote:
Does anyone actually think in terms of mechanical skill and game understanding that foreign P/Z players are just way better than foreign T players? I see people hinting at this idea, and it's completely absurd.
How about the more likely explanation: the skill cap currently for Z/P is far lower, especially regarding army control.
Z/P is not OP, in the sense that Z is so strong that the numbers are fundamentally skewed their way. It's about the ease of reaching that cap and the extent of mechanical ability that the cap forces from the opponent.
The success of foreign Z is largely due to the lower cap. Stephano himself has said that he's playing Z because it's the easiest at that level of play.
I remember some scary foreign Terrans that pushed top BW pros to the limit. These bad a mofos like Androide (troll savior), Advokate (troll jaedong), strelok, Phoenix. Kas sounds like an oldschool BW player but I don't remember.
P and Zs that smashed BW pros heads in Mondragon, Draco (rape Midas), Fisheye (kinda in the boxer/yellow era if that counts), PJ (raped savior pvz bo3 and savior said it was his lowest point T_T), Legend and a few others I probably can't remember.
To think sc2 made all the good scary foreign Terrans disappear is absurd but only King Thorzain stands as the lone Nordic man. (he tall too)
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On August 20 2012 12:18 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:11 architecture wrote:
Does anyone actually think in terms of mechanical skill and game understanding that foreign P/Z players are just way better than foreign T players? I see people hinting at this idea, and it's completely absurd.
How about the more likely explanation: the skill cap currently for Z/P is far lower, especially regarding army control.
Z/P is not OP, in the sense that Z is so strong that the numbers are fundamentally skewed their way. It's about the ease of reaching that cap and the extent of mechanical ability that the cap forces from the opponent.
The success of foreign Z is largely due to the lower cap. Stephano himself has said that he's playing Z because it's the easiest at that level of play. Never once crossed your mind that more Korean players choose to play Terran, while more foreigners choose Protoss and Zerg?
Nah, he's right. The mechanical skill and game understanding required is far lower for Z/P than required for T. But, I don't think this has anything to do with true balance. I'd love to see someone at DRG's skill level when he was in his prime in this current metagame play against Taeja's current TvZ. I think it would actually prove that we have no fucking clue what balance is in Sc2. I think this nonsense about "patchzergs" is just the fact that zerg is far easier at the level jreeco, vortix, sortof, supernova are at. Don't misunderstand me though. The time it took jreeco, vortix, and sortof to reach this skill level took almost no time to reach the level supernova is at. This is just the skill cap of Z and T. Is the skill cap of Z and T imba? Probably. Is ZvT truly imba? Who really knows. Until we have Taeja improve his macro and play against a truly beast zerg, we won't see if the matchup is balanced.
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Are you joking?
None of those players are relevant in modern BW.
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On August 20 2012 12:02 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 11:50 TeslasPigeon wrote:On August 20 2012 11:47 KawaiiRice wrote:On August 20 2012 11:44 Kontys wrote:
The patch helped, but only by making the match up more reasonable.
Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx.
Reactor hellion expand went away and Terran metagame vs Z started evolving again after almost a full year of total stagnation. This patch is one of the most phenomenal successes blizzard has introduced. I feel originally most of the whine was all about Terrans having to start figuring out a match up, omg! Imba! We have to THINK now! Unthunkabilibul!
So yeah, there you have some filling for the "full picture". stephano goes fast 3rd every single game against protoss (as do most zergs) zergs can go fast 3rd every game against terran whats your point Perhaps Terran and Protoss should change up their strategies to compensate for an overzealous Zerg? Or is it easier to complain about balance, where the dominant players will remain dominant and the lesser players will fade into obscurity? also nice jab asshole, I'm not even qqing about balance.
Here is your direct quote:
stephano goes fast 3rd every single game against protoss (as do most zergs)
zergs can go fast 3rd every game against terran
whats your point
If you aren't getting snippy about Zerg what the fuck are you insinuating? There is why the top tier are top tier, they practice. They adapt. They train. They prepare. They do many things, aside from complaining.
Also, nice job with the name calling. While I may succumb to your prowess of Starcraft at least I can rest in repose knowing that I'm not one of the many dicks out there on the internet.
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On August 20 2012 12:12 Instigata wrote:
Of course the massive nerfs to Terran will have results. MVP and Taeja won so they say play like them, even though Fruitdealer won and all the zergs pouted. I'm glad Terran has become a Korean race and Thorzain. Makes it enjoyable to watch what only a handful of people can achieve. I always check into these other "good Terrans" people try to correct me on and see they have lackluster wins in online tournaments (hacking will always be an issue) and they never did anything significant in an 'offline' tournament with anyone notable there.
These patches won't matter much any longer anyways. It's all going to be madness imbalance when HOTS get here even though it won't save this franchise. I'm enjoying watching this game burn to the ground due to Blizzard's decisions. They might as well release DLC content lol. So quickly sc2 is no longer the main event at these tournaments and it's only going to get worse when DOTA 2 comes out. I would have never thought starcraft would be surpassed in Korea, gj Blizzard.
Is there a good place to list all the balance changes? I made it in a word document and it's just troll looking at it organized by race.
Why do you even care about what Terran is to Koreans and these "good Terrans" or whatever and making a list of balance changes when you enjoy the game burning to the ground?
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On August 20 2012 12:22 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:17 BanditX wrote:On August 20 2012 12:11 architecture wrote:
Does anyone actually think in terms of mechanical skill and game understanding that foreign P/Z players are just way better than foreign T players? I see people hinting at this idea, and it's completely absurd.
How about the more likely explanation: the skill cap currently for Z/P is far lower, especially regarding army control.
Z/P is not OP, in the sense that Z is so strong that the numbers are fundamentally skewed their way. It's about the ease of reaching that cap and the extent of mechanical ability that the cap forces from the opponent.
The success of foreign Z is largely due to the lower cap. Stephano himself has said that he's playing Z because it's the easiest at that level of play. If true, this is an inherent imbalance in the game. Players with higher skill should beat players with lower skill. If one race requires more skill to be on the same level as a race that requires less skill, it won't be played/seen/win with any frequency. Either the race that requires more skill needs to scale exponentially to the point where is just hands down dominants everything else, or there will be no point to playing something that requires more to achieve what others are doing for less. 1. My point is that there's not necessarily an imbalance. Everyone has seen how strong topend T is. If the theoretical maximum for one race is 90, and for another 100, but it's very very hard to get there, which would you play? Things like, the conditions, the map, the matchup, all come into effect whether or not 100 can be hit that day. 2. People aren't purely rational. Would most foreign T see more success as Z, possibly P? Probably. But if you have to train 8+ hours a day, wouldn't you want to spend the time on something you enjoy? If you enjoy T more than Z, though you would have a better shot at tournament results, which would you do?
I edited an analogy into my post that you might want to look at. It really clarifies my point.
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On August 20 2012 12:26 TeslasPigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:02 KawaiiRice wrote:On August 20 2012 11:50 TeslasPigeon wrote:On August 20 2012 11:47 KawaiiRice wrote:On August 20 2012 11:44 Kontys wrote:
The patch helped, but only by making the match up more reasonable.
Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx.
Reactor hellion expand went away and Terran metagame vs Z started evolving again after almost a full year of total stagnation. This patch is one of the most phenomenal successes blizzard has introduced. I feel originally most of the whine was all about Terrans having to start figuring out a match up, omg! Imba! We have to THINK now! Unthunkabilibul!
So yeah, there you have some filling for the "full picture". stephano goes fast 3rd every single game against protoss (as do most zergs) zergs can go fast 3rd every game against terran whats your point Perhaps Terran and Protoss should change up their strategies to compensate for an overzealous Zerg? Or is it easier to complain about balance, where the dominant players will remain dominant and the lesser players will fade into obscurity? also nice jab asshole, I'm not even qqing about balance. Here is your direct quote: Show nested quote +stephano goes fast 3rd every single game against protoss (as do most zergs)
zergs can go fast 3rd every game against terran
whats your point If you aren't getting snippy about Zerg what the fuck are you insinuating? There is why the top tier are top tier, they practice. They adapt. They train. They prepare. They do many things, aside from complaining. Also, nice job with the name calling. While I may succumb to your prowess of Starcraft at least I can rest in repose knowing that I'm not one of the many dicks out there on the internet.
Teslas - "Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx."
He is merely responding to this. Zergs like Stephano do EXACTLY that nowadays. Same build order every single game, every single map. Not balance whine. Just a simple response.
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On August 20 2012 12:26 TeslasPigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:02 KawaiiRice wrote:On August 20 2012 11:50 TeslasPigeon wrote:On August 20 2012 11:47 KawaiiRice wrote:On August 20 2012 11:44 Kontys wrote:
The patch helped, but only by making the match up more reasonable.
Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx.
Reactor hellion expand went away and Terran metagame vs Z started evolving again after almost a full year of total stagnation. This patch is one of the most phenomenal successes blizzard has introduced. I feel originally most of the whine was all about Terrans having to start figuring out a match up, omg! Imba! We have to THINK now! Unthunkabilibul!
So yeah, there you have some filling for the "full picture". stephano goes fast 3rd every single game against protoss (as do most zergs) zergs can go fast 3rd every game against terran whats your point Perhaps Terran and Protoss should change up their strategies to compensate for an overzealous Zerg? Or is it easier to complain about balance, where the dominant players will remain dominant and the lesser players will fade into obscurity? also nice jab asshole, I'm not even qqing about balance. Here is your direct quote: Show nested quote +stephano goes fast 3rd every single game against protoss (as do most zergs)
zergs can go fast 3rd every game against terran
whats your point If you aren't getting snippy about Zerg what the fuck are you insinuating? There is why the top tier are top tier, they practice. They adapt. They train. They prepare. They do many things, aside from complaining. Also, nice job with the name calling. While I may succumb to your prowess of Starcraft at least I can rest in repose knowing that I'm not one of the many dicks out there on the internet.
His point is, whatever P and T does, Zerg can do whatever he wants to. Its true.
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Thank you OP for the effort and time you put in writing this thread. I have to say the patch has certainly helped zergs. But we may also need more data and time for the metagame to develop and others to react properly to the patch with zerg.
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I understand your point, I don't know if it should be changed.
But, I do think people should recognize it for it is. The only change I think that would be necessary, and that is largely coming with HOTS is:
1. Z will be a lot more micro intensive with "lurkers" and dark swarm.
2. P will become the aggressor in PvT and be forced to multiprong to split the mech army.
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On August 20 2012 12:30 architecture wrote:
I understand your point, I don't know if it should be changed.
But, I do think people should recognize it for it is. The only change I think that would be necessary, and that is largely coming with HOTS is:
1. Z will be a lot more micro intensive with "lurkers" and dark swarm.
2. P will become the aggressor in PvT and be forced to multiprong to split the mech army.
Zerg will not become more micro intensive because of Swarm Hosts and Vipers unless there is a reason for them not to continue their passive rush to Brood Lord/Infestor unhindered plan that is currently working so well.
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I don't follow how you went from the data to your conclusion. What difference do you define as being necessary to make someone a "patchzerg"?
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On August 20 2012 12:26 architecture wrote:
Are you joking?
None of those players are relevant in modern BW.
No foreign players are relevant in modern BW. The guys I mentioned were the last ones before all foreigners pretty much quit BW. These were the Stephano, Naniwa, Thorzain of their times, when taking a game off a BW pro was rare and taking a series was front page worthy.
I'm just saying I can name multiple players for each race that achieved similar results in BW.
Now in sc2 its some zergs, Naniwa and sometimes 4 gaters that make a deep run, and Thorzain. I don't mind it though, I like seeing Thorzain's crisp mechanics that are equal to his Korean counterparts.
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Well re: HOTS:
1. I suspect that the 13 range nexus cannon is going to destroy a lot of bio's viability. Bio has the ability to make some big damage in a 10-14m window, but if that gets sealed because of getting slowed down by oracle + pressure denied by cannon, then there's not really a good reason to field such an army.
So I think mech will be forced.
2. I'm not quite sure what to think of TvZ. I wonder if the new hellion will replace the marine - I suspect hellions will be very strong against linginfestor. It comes down to what the relationship between mines and mutas are. Obviously they had something in mind when they let mines attach to air (muta/oracle/phoenix). If the additional beef + aoe from the hellions/mines is significant enough, then that's what would force gas being spent on host+swarm.
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Of course there are patch zergs, the balance patch is essentially a buff to zerg and nothing to terran and protoss. Holding all else constant, a lesser zerg will now be more likely to defeat an equally lesser terran. The fact that so many low profile zergs appeared in the IEM that managed to get past the known foreigner terran that are actually good like Kas or Demuslim is indicative of the patch's effect on zerg players.
Edit: The way Vortix ran multiple infestors into siege tanks and the 4th game vs immvp is disgusting, how did he even get to the finals.
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I knew of all of these zergs before the patch. I'm a terran and I fucking hate TvZ and I don't think there are patch zergs. Look at Vortix's fricking stats he had awesome stats even before. Also, each of these players were consistently in top 50 ladder.
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If there are patchzerg, conversely there are patchterran, whose winrates have sunk faster than a supply depot lowering. Namely a lot of regular people on ladder, such as myself. :D
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I have a record of having slightly wrong stats but here we go.
Players winrate from 2012/01/10 to 2012/05/09 compared to 2012/05/10 to today aka 4 months pre-patch VS 4 months post-patch.
Both TLPD (international and korean).
Latest games played might be missing.
+ Show Spoiler +
sLivko (Z)
vT BEAST 52.2% (35-32) -> 65.4% (17-9)
vP drop 61.8% (47-29) -> 44.9% (31-38)
vZ = 49.5% (54-55) -> 58.2% (39-28)
VortiX (Z)
vT = 64.3% (9-5) -> 71.4% (20-8)
vP ~ drop 100.0% (4-0) -> 61.3% (19-12)
vZ ~ drop 66.7% (4-2) -> 56.5% (13-10)
SortOf (Z)
vT = 38.5% (5-8) -> 40.0% (6-9)
vP = 50.0% (8-8) -> 59.1% (26-18)
vZ drop 72.7% (8-3) -> 57.7% (15-11)
Stephano (Z)
vT = 68.1% (62-29) -> 73.9% (34-12)
vP = 79.5% (93-24) -> 72.4% (42-16)
vZ drop 67.7% (42-20) -> 44.0% (11-14)
Nerchio (Z)
vT BEAST 60.2% (59-39) -> 78.9% (56-15)
vP BEAST 61.0% (75-48) -> 76.4% (94-29)
vZ = 64.3% (72-40) -> 61.6% (69-43)
IdrA (Z)
vT = 27.9% (12-31) -> 36.4% (8-14)
vP BEAST 25.9% (7-20) -> 45.5% (10-12)
vZ BEAST 22.7% (5-17) -> 68.2% (15-7)
DIMAGA (Z)
vT BEAST 43.3% (13-17) -> 56.1% (23-18)
vP = 46.6% (27-31) -> 41.5% (22-31)
vZ = 42.9% (15-20) -> 50.0% (18-18)
NesTea (Z)
vT drop 58.1% (25-18) -> 47.6% (10-11)
vP ~ = 59.5% (22-15) -> 62.5% (5-3)
vZ = 60.0% (12-8) -> 57.1% (8-6)
Leenock (Z)
vT = 58.2% (32-23) -> 64.7% (22-12)
vP = 47.6% (20-22) -> 37.9% (11-18)
vZ = 57.6% (19-14) -> 56.0% (14-11)
Sheth (Z)
vT = 51.5% (17-16) -> 52.6% (20-18)
vP = 52.8% (38-34) -> 54.5% (36-30)
vZ drop 60.5% (26-17) -> 47.8% (11-12)
Same thing 2 months pre-patch VS 2 months post-patch. Too few games most of the time but here goes:
+ Show Spoiler +
sLivko (Z)
vT BEAST 44.0% (11-14) -> 65.4% (17-9)
vP = 48.4% (15-16) -> 50.0% (25-25)
vZ = 47.6% (20-22) -> 57.4% (27-20)
VortiX (Z)
vT BEAST 64.3% (9-5) -> 78.3% (18-5)
vP ~ drop 100.0% (4-0) -> 66.7% (10-5)
vZ ~ drop 66.7% (4-2) -> 50.0% (9-9)
SortOf (Z)
vT ~ drop 50.0% (4-4) -> 25.0% (1-3)
vP = 45.5% (5-6) -> 46.2% (6-7)
vZ ~ = 66.7% (6-3) -> 65.0% (13-7)
Stephano (Z)
vT = 65.0% (26-14) -> 73.2% (30-11)
vP = 73.4% (47-17) -> 77.8% (28-8)
vZ drop 66.7% (14-7) -> 40.9% (9-13)
Nerchio (Z)
vT BEAST 62.1% (36-22) -> 78.2% (43-12)
vP BEAST 61.7% (37-23) -> 80.6% (83-20)
vZ = 62.8% (49-29) -> 64.0% (55-31)
IdrA (Z)
vT = 35.7% (10-18) -> 35.3% (6-11)
vP BEAST 28.6% (4-10) -> 47.6% (10-11)
vZ ~ BEAST 30.0% (3-7) -> 56.3% (9-7)
DIMAGA (Z)
vT ~ BEAST 25.0% (2-6) -> 57.9% (22-16)
vP drop 68.8% (11-5) -> 45.8% (22-26)
vZ BEAST 50.0% (8-8) -> 63.0% (17-10)
NesTea (Z)
vT = 53.8% (14-12) -> 62.5% (10-6)
vP ~ = 60.0% (12-8) -> 57.1% (4-3)
vZ = 53.8% (7-6) -> 53.8% (7-6)
Leenock (Z)
vT = 60.0% (12-8) -> 53.8% (14-12)
vP = 42.9% (9-12) -> 39.1% (9-14)
vZ drop 60.0% (9-6) -> 47.1% (8-9)
Sheth (Z)
vT BEAST 36.4% (4-7) -> 57.6% (19-14)
vP = 47.8% (11-12) -> 56.0% (28-22)
vZ = 56.7% (17-13) -> 58.8% (10-7)
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EPT
