The patch helped, but only by making the match up more reasonable.
Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx.
Reactor hellion expand went away and Terran metagame vs Z started evolving again after almost a full year of total stagnation. This patch is one of the most phenomenal successes blizzard has introduced. I feel originally most of the whine was all about Terrans having to start figuring out a match up, omg! Imba! We have to THINK now! Unthunkabilibul!
So yeah, there you have some filling for the "full picture".
On August 20 2012 11:44 Kontys wrote: The patch helped, but only by making the match up more reasonable.
Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx.
Reactor hellion expand went away and Terran metagame vs Z started evolving again after almost a full year of total stagnation. This patch is one of the most phenomenal successes blizzard has introduced. I feel originally most of the whine was all about Terrans having to start figuring out a match up, omg! Imba! We have to THINK now! Unthunkabilibul!
So yeah, there you have some filling for the "full picture".
you mean how zerg resorts to one build for every possible opening in zvt?
On August 20 2012 11:44 Kontys wrote: The patch helped, but only by making the match up more reasonable.
Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx.
Reactor hellion expand went away and Terran metagame vs Z started evolving again after almost a full year of total stagnation. This patch is one of the most phenomenal successes blizzard has introduced. I feel originally most of the whine was all about Terrans having to start figuring out a match up, omg! Imba! We have to THINK now! Unthunkabilibul!
So yeah, there you have some filling for the "full picture".
you mean how zerg resorts to one build for every possible opening in zvt?
I don't know what tournament you were watching, but I saw all sorts of different openings from both zerg and terrans. Unless by the "same build" you mean the one where they get queens and zerglings while trying to take three bases?
On August 20 2012 11:44 Kontys wrote: The patch helped, but only by making the match up more reasonable.
Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx.
Reactor hellion expand went away and Terran metagame vs Z started evolving again after almost a full year of total stagnation. This patch is one of the most phenomenal successes blizzard has introduced. I feel originally most of the whine was all about Terrans having to start figuring out a match up, omg! Imba! We have to THINK now! Unthunkabilibul!
So yeah, there you have some filling for the "full picture".
you mean how zerg resorts to one build for every possible opening in zvt?
Beyond the 15 hatch, 14/15/16 pool, there's a ton of variation in the builds.
On August 20 2012 11:44 Kontys wrote: The patch helped, but only by making the match up more reasonable.
Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx.
Reactor hellion expand went away and Terran metagame vs Z started evolving again after almost a full year of total stagnation. This patch is one of the most phenomenal successes blizzard has introduced. I feel originally most of the whine was all about Terrans having to start figuring out a match up, omg! Imba! We have to THINK now! Unthunkabilibul!
So yeah, there you have some filling for the "full picture".
stephano goes fast 3rd every single game against protoss (as do most zergs) zergs can go fast 3rd every game against terran whats your point
On August 20 2012 11:36 BanditX wrote: In Starcraft 2, anyone can be anyone on a given day due elements of randomness in the game. Cheeses, proxies, what have you. No Namers can take games off of higher level players. However No Namers don't just come up and roll multiple Code S level Terrans using standard macro game tatics. MVP, ForGG, Supernova are all veteran players of Starcraft this point. They've all been in GSL Code S. They all know how to handle themselves in a tournament. They don't just lose to No Namers playing macro games ZvT.
This is not a fluke, something is wrong.
Because a player doesn't have a recognizable name means nothing to his ability. One reason that a person like yourself might not to recognize a player like Vortix might be that you're ignorant of the Spanish SC2 scene. Doesn't mean anything is wrong. When Stephano first won IPL he wasn't exactly the most recognized name yet a year later, there is no doubt that he is among the best players.
On August 20 2012 11:44 Kontys wrote: The patch helped, but only by making the match up more reasonable.
Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx.
Reactor hellion expand went away and Terran metagame vs Z started evolving again after almost a full year of total stagnation. This patch is one of the most phenomenal successes blizzard has introduced. I feel originally most of the whine was all about Terrans having to start figuring out a match up, omg! Imba! We have to THINK now! Unthunkabilibul!
So yeah, there you have some filling for the "full picture".
stephano goes fast 3rd every single game against protoss (as do most zergs) zergs can go fast 3rd every game against terran whats your point
Perhaps Terran and Protoss should change up their strategies to compensate for an overzealous Zerg? Or is it easier to complain about balance, where the dominant players will remain dominant and the lesser players will fade into obscurity?
On August 20 2012 11:00 AngryMag wrote: read on TL long before I finally registered. This is the first time in this community that a bunch of new and upcoming players get insulted and belittled for actually being succesful. A real lowpoint for this community, everybody who shouts "patchzerg" should rather work on his own play and not belittling others.
This is definitely not the first time.
you had individual players insulted (Cruncher for example), but you had never a whole bunch of newcomers belittled because of the race they happen to play.
Terran users in 2010.
nah back then Terran was the OP race, Toss the noob race and Zerg the no micro race, but this had a much more humourous character. Morrow got some flak for abusing reapers. But be honest to yourself:
Would have a sentence like "All these Koreans (early GSL's) are only succesful because they play the OP race gotten so much attention and acceptance?. I don't think so, seriously, especially with Gorilla Terran beasting it up in GSL.
I don't remember it being any less earnest than the complaints today. First was the era of Zerg bitching about Terran, then was the era when everyone was bitching about Protoss (MC double championship era, collosus + voidray combo in PvZ). Then an era of relative stability, in which Toss slightly underperformed in GSL.
Here is an artifact from the early days of WoL which I remember with fondness:
On August 20 2012 11:44 Kontys wrote: The patch helped, but only by making the match up more reasonable.
Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx.
Reactor hellion expand went away and Terran metagame vs Z started evolving again after almost a full year of total stagnation. This patch is one of the most phenomenal successes blizzard has introduced. I feel originally most of the whine was all about Terrans having to start figuring out a match up, omg! Imba! We have to THINK now! Unthunkabilibul!
So yeah, there you have some filling for the "full picture".
stephano goes fast 3rd every single game against protoss (as do most zergs) zergs can go fast 3rd every game against terran whats your point
Perhaps Terran and Protoss should change up their strategies to compensate for an overzealous Zerg? Or is it easier to complain about balance, where the dominant players will remain dominant and the lesser players will fade into obscurity?
Most zergs are only playing with one style: lategame broodlord compositions. The patch has made this so much easier to attain for zergs with the buffs to the early game.
It's fun watching players like Mvp demolish mediocre Zergs using a variety of builds. It's fun watching Korean players totally outclass foreign Zergs.
It's not fun watching Zergs play the same style in every match-up.
+Props to Leenock, DRG, Violet, and other Zergs that still keep SC2 interesting.
On August 20 2012 11:52 ptrpb wrote: johnnyrecco feels like the most real example of a patchzerg in my opinion i guess we'll see how he fairs after the next few patches
he'll grow stronger with the patches, each amplifying his patchzerg powers.
Anyhow, I do think the OP is lacking in contributing to the discussion like it seems to. It misses out on an adjustment time needed for the new TvZ metagame=free zerg wins, defensive style zvz being buffed, and checking if top zergs win percentage went up by similar percentages to the proposed patchzergs(this would question whether everyone is a patchzerg)
On August 20 2012 11:44 Kontys wrote: The patch helped, but only by making the match up more reasonable.
Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx.
Reactor hellion expand went away and Terran metagame vs Z started evolving again after almost a full year of total stagnation. This patch is one of the most phenomenal successes blizzard has introduced. I feel originally most of the whine was all about Terrans having to start figuring out a match up, omg! Imba! We have to THINK now! Unthunkabilibul!
So yeah, there you have some filling for the "full picture".
stephano goes fast 3rd every single game against protoss (as do most zergs) zergs can go fast 3rd every game against terran whats your point
Perhaps Terran and Protoss should change up their strategies to compensate for an overzealous Zerg? Or is it easier to complain about balance, where the dominant players will remain dominant and the lesser players will fade into obscurity?
options terran has to punish a fast 3rd zerg are to either play uber greedy as well or do some pressure build that, if scouted, can get easily blocked and put terran behind. obviously a lot of zergs are still taking damage from pressure builds (like vortix losing his 3rd hatch 3 times to hellion banshee). greedy play seems to work well but extremely hard for T to do something if the Z has god creep spread like the korean zergs. first option is relying on the late game, the second is luck based. Late game T is looking better and better lately but still one mistake can cost us the game. also nice jab asshole, I'm not even qqing about balance.
Does anyone actually think in terms of mechanical skill and game understanding that foreign P/Z players are just way better than foreign T players? I see people hinting at this idea, and it's completely absurd.
How about the more likely explanation: the skill cap currently for Z/P is far lower, especially regarding army control.
Z/P is not OP, in the sense that Z is so strong that the numbers are fundamentally skewed their way. It's about the ease of reaching that cap and the extent of mechanical ability that the cap forces from the opponent.
The success of foreign Z is largely due to the lower cap. Stephano himself has said that he's playing Z because it's the easiest at that level of play.
Of course the massive nerfs to Terran will have results. MVP and Taeja won so they say play like them, even though Fruitdealer won and all the zergs pouted. I'm glad Terran has become a Korean race and Thorzain. Makes it enjoyable to watch what only a handful of people can achieve. I always check into these other "good Terrans" people try to correct me on and see they have lackluster wins in online tournaments (hacking will always be an issue) and they never did anything significant in an 'offline' tournament with anyone notable there.
These patches won't matter much any longer anyways. It's all going to be madness imbalance when HOTS get here even though it won't save this franchise. I'm enjoying watching this game burn to the ground due to Blizzard's decisions. They might as well release DLC content lol. So quickly sc2 is no longer the main event at these tournaments and it's only going to get worse when DOTA 2 comes out. I would have never thought starcraft would be surpassed in Korea, gj Blizzard.
Is there a good place to list all the balance changes? I made it in a word document and it's just troll looking at it organized by race.
On August 20 2012 12:11 architecture wrote: Does anyone actually think in terms of mechanical skill and game understanding that foreign P/Z players are just way better than foreign T players? I see people hinting at this idea, and it's completely absurd.
How about the more likely explanation: the skill cap currently for Z/P is far lower, especially regarding army control.
Z/P is not OP, in the sense that Z is so strong that the numbers are fundamentally skewed their way. It's about the ease of reaching that cap and the extent of mechanical ability that the cap forces from the opponent.
The success of foreign Z is largely due to the lower cap. Stephano himself has said that he's playing Z because it's the easiest at that level of play.
If true, this is an inherent imbalance in the game. Players with higher skill should beat players with lower skill. If one race requires more skill to be on the same level as a race that requires less skill, it won't be played/seen/win with any frequency. Either the race that requires more skill needs to scale exponentially to the point where is just hands down dominants everything else, or there will be no point to playing something that requires more to achieve what others are doing for less.
For an example, Marvel vs Capcom 2 is a game with about 6 actually playable characters in it. The best characters being Sentinel and Magneto. The difference is that Sentinel is used on nearly every competitive team because he is much easier to pick up and learn than Magneto. Much more work is required to use Magneto at full effectivness (hours of practicing ROM infinites ughhh), therefore, their are competitive teams without Magneto. The person who puts in the work with Magneto stands a much better chance against non-Magneto teams, because he is just that powerful.
All I get from this post is. ZERG IMBA NERF NERF NERF What has really changed? Just the queen GROUND range. Its still 5 damage per poke.
Those players mentioned within the OP are pro players within europe. They're not really that big on starcraft there so they may not have as much exposure. They have been competing in Dreamhacks but haven't gotten to the top.
On August 20 2012 12:11 architecture wrote: Does anyone actually think in terms of mechanical skill and game understanding that foreign P/Z players are just way better than foreign T players? I see people hinting at this idea, and it's completely absurd.
How about the more likely explanation: the skill cap currently for Z/P is far lower, especially regarding army control.
Z/P is not OP, in the sense that Z is so strong that the numbers are fundamentally skewed their way. It's about the ease of reaching that cap and the extent of mechanical ability that the cap forces from the opponent.
The success of foreign Z is largely due to the lower cap. Stephano himself has said that he's playing Z because it's the easiest at that level of play.
Never once crossed your mind that more Korean players choose to play Terran, while more foreigners choose Protoss and Zerg?
Or it could be the explanation that makes you feel better about being shit. You know, like most people tend to choose when their precious ego is at risk.
On August 20 2012 11:44 Kontys wrote: The patch helped, but only by making the match up more reasonable.
Ask yourself if the game is in a good spot if one race in one match up resorts to the same build order every single game, every single map. Ok, good, thx.
Reactor hellion expand went away and Terran metagame vs Z started evolving again after almost a full year of total stagnation. This patch is one of the most phenomenal successes blizzard has introduced. I feel originally most of the whine was all about Terrans having to start figuring out a match up, omg! Imba! We have to THINK now! Unthunkabilibul!
So yeah, there you have some filling for the "full picture".
Then shouldn't it bother you that pretty much every ZvT is mass queens -> hive rush? Reactor hellion expand was just an opening. This is how entire games are played now. It's painful to both play and watch.
On August 20 2012 12:17 BioRH wrote: All I get from this post is. ZERG IMBA NERF NERF NERF What has really changed? Just the queen GROUND range. Its still 5 damage per poke.
Those players mentioned within the OP are pro players within europe. They're not really that big on starcraft there so they may not have as much exposure. They have been competing in Dreamhacks but haven't gotten to the top.
Range is one of the most powerful stats in any strategy game. 3->5 has huge effects especially since it changes harass/poke potential.
So much flawed logic from all these (mainly) Terran players. Consider ONE thing at the very least.. How come, Idra, Dimaga, TLO, Nestea, DRG, Leenoch, Sheth etc. etc. etc. etc. .. This is especially valid for all the Korean zergs. How come they are not facerolling everything after this latest patch?
People struggle so much with change that they can't accept a new name doing well, and they oversee even facts as obvious as the tons of top zergs that underperform after this magical patch in the frenzy to diminish what the up and commers are accomplishing.
EPT
