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On July 13 2012 03:12 Wroshe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:07 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2012 03:04 Wroshe wrote:On July 13 2012 03:02 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 02:59 Wroshe wrote:On July 13 2012 02:54 Geiko wrote:
Wasn't everyone cheering for Nazgul when he used the Kulas Ravine blink exploit ?
Don't see why people are blaming Byun now ... How was the Kulas Ravine an exploit? It just was something that people didn't think of before. Having said that I feel that laying the blame at Byun is just laughable; the only one to blame here is NesTea. I don't think you can really "blame" Nestea. He reacted really poorly, but he is still the victim. GoMTV have all the responsibility to make sure their map is up to standard. No absolutely not, of course NesTea is to blame for this. Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions. 1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed? Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake? You keep copy pasting this when your first question is simply wrong. You won't practice on a map/version that shouldn't be in the tournament to begin with. You should of course practice on the official map hosted by the official hosting account. Because that is the map that you will be playing on, unless you notice it is wrong and decide to tell the organization about that. By deciding to not practice on the official map you accept the risk that you are playing on another map, regardless whether that fault is made by you or the tournament. Also the wording 'keep copy pasting' is quite interesting considering it's the first and only time I have copy pasted them. The reasoning behind that is because the main point still stands: NesTea fucked up by not knowing it beforehand but most of all not doing anything during the match.
There are players and referees. I don't know why you think Nestea needs to be a referee in your first two questions.
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imo the match winner still will not change
and to be honest it is NesTea fault for failing to defend it too after seeing the 2nd rax
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On July 13 2012 03:27 Azurues wrote:
imo the match winner still will not change
and to be honest it is NesTea fault for failing to defend it too after seeing the 2nd rax
Regarding your first point, we can't know for sure. It's possible without this strat, Byun would still have won game 1. Maybe he'd have lost it, though, and Nestea would have won games 4 and 5. We can't know for sure, which is sad. Byun looked amazing, though, I think he would have won... it's just annoying that GOM overlooked this. It's like, their job to prevent stuff like this from happening ;_;
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whatever.
1. queens were buffed since they implemented the depot originally
2. nestea scouted 2nd rax way before any bunker was started
3. nestea had plenty of time to kill one if not both scvs and blew it
4. he shuda pulled more drones down to his natural to stop reenforcements from gettin in before either bunker started
Im an IM fan but Terran is the way to be. I love that Byun abused this fact and I hope they do away with the supply depots on all maps in the future
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If it's anyone's fault for letting this pass by, it's every zerg's obligation to point it out since they're pretty much the one's who enforced this "new regulation" to maps that are played in these tournaments. As a zerg, I would definitely notice that something is up since these kinds of cheeses are open to exploitations at any given moment
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Well that's really unfortunate.
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Pretty sneaky of Byun to perform his act, but on the other hand...
Two weeks... surely at least ONE OTHER person would have noticed something was off. It's not like GOM or any other tournaments hide the map pool from the public until the day of the match. I do believe this is honestly entirely NesTea's fault for not reporting it beforehand, and bungling his defense.
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I think that:
1: ByuN noticed the change in the map, which hosted many games over weeks, and took advantage of it, no problem with it at all.
2: NesTea was not to blame but he did react poorly and deserved to lose for not pause when the 2 bunkers building and / or defend it properly.
3: GomTV messed up there, even though it's a easy thing to miss, and everyone except ByuN did, it is still their responsibility. They should apologize to NesTea and maybe some form of compensation.
4: GomTV maybe should intervened when the bunkers were going up and order a re-game at that moment.
5: The decision to not do anything after the game was over was correct.
6: It is not likely, though not completely impossible, that one incident changed the outcome of the series, since ByuN clearly played better today.
7: If that incident affected NesTea's psyche, which I highly doubt given what he already accomplished, NesTea have no one but himself to blame.
8: With the queen buff maybe it is time to do away with the supply depot altogether, though not in the form of a sneak attack.
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On July 13 2012 02:51 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 02:50 Titorelli wrote:
What an epic GOM fail... Thanks for the info, I was wondering how Nestea couldve lost to Byun... He lost the other two games pretty bad also...
Seems kind of unprofessional for Byun to exploit an obvious bug, and it's really inevitable that this is going to take away from his otherwise convincing win. Would it really hurt him that much to just report the bug when he noticed it instead of trying to exploit it? He won a game with it but it definitely showed some lack of sportsmanship there.
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On July 13 2012 03:43 dust.89 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 02:51 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 02:50 Titorelli wrote:
What an epic GOM fail... Thanks for the info, I was wondering how Nestea couldve lost to Byun... He lost the other two games pretty bad also... Seems kind of unprofessional for Byun to exploit an obvious bug, and it's really inevitable that this is going to take away from his otherwise convincing win. Would it really hurt him that much to just report the bug when he noticed it instead of trying to exploit it? He won a game with it but it definitely showed some lack of sportsmanship there.
why would you report it? how was Byun supposed to know that they hadn't changed the map on purpose? furthermore, why is it his responsibility to make sure that Nestea has every advantage he can possibly get?
LOL @ idra's metaphor... that's not even close dude -.-
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There is no "bug" that causes depots to be removed during uploading. The depots are literally a few lines of code within an .xml file that sits in the map archive that puts it all together. The same lines of code maintain where minerals and geysers are placed, xel'naga towers, etc.
The mapmaker goofed, and should be owning up to it. This is no different then when I goofed on Vicious and Thorzain spotted it during Dreamhack finals. He didn't test his changes properly, end of story. This is another example of how important playtesting and feedback are in the map design process.Mistakes happen, and that's fine. We learn from our mistakes. Just need to improve the change and testing procedure, same as ESV did after the Vicious incident. What bothers me here is that he claims it's it was an editor bug.
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On July 13 2012 03:43 dust.89 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 02:51 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 02:50 Titorelli wrote:
What an epic GOM fail... Thanks for the info, I was wondering how Nestea couldve lost to Byun... He lost the other two games pretty bad also... Seems kind of unprofessional for Byun to exploit an obvious bug, and it's really inevitable that this is going to take away from his otherwise convincing win. Would it really hurt him that much to just report the bug when he noticed it instead of trying to exploit it? He won a game with it but it definitely showed some lack of sportsmanship there.
How is that an obvious bug though? It's been there whole season; it's standard for ladder map; no one ever thought it was a bug before that game, including his practice partners (Zerg players), whom I'm sure he used exact build on (and no, CoCa did not conspire with him to abuse it, that's just silly); there were discussion during L/R thread to whether it was intentional since it can be argued the new queen range make the supply depot not necessary, the discussion itself suggest it is not "obvious" a bug; we did not know for sure it was a bug until after this thread. How can you claim after the fact that it was "an obvious bug" when it was not obvious at all?
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EXPLOIT!
Had it been down to a wire like DRG vs Nani, then fans should complain.
But since PuppyPrime laid the smack on bosstea....I think people should just get over it.
fix map for the future.
oh yea, I guess that means DRG sabotaged Nestea indirectly...
hehe
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On July 12 2012 22:17 Waxangel wrote:
[...]
According to the map maker "There's a bug that causes neutral supply depots to disappear sometimes when uploading to battle.net." [...]
Interesting excuse.
Can't imagine such a thing actually happens. I mean depots are units, just like minerals, gas geysers or watchtowers. And those never disappeared when I uploaded a map either...
Well whatever mapmaking is a bit of a mess (right now).
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wouldn´t have helped nestea...byun was on fire!
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On July 13 2012 03:49 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:43 dust.89 wrote:On July 13 2012 02:51 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 02:50 Titorelli wrote:
What an epic GOM fail... Thanks for the info, I was wondering how Nestea couldve lost to Byun... He lost the other two games pretty bad also... Seems kind of unprofessional for Byun to exploit an obvious bug, and it's really inevitable that this is going to take away from his otherwise convincing win. Would it really hurt him that much to just report the bug when he noticed it instead of trying to exploit it? He won a game with it but it definitely showed some lack of sportsmanship there. How is that an obvious bug though? It's been there whole season; it's standard for ladder map; no one ever thought it was a bug before that game, including his practice partners (Zerg players), whom I'm sure he used exact build on (and no, CoCa did not conspire with him to abuse it, that's just silly); there were discussion during L/R thread to whether it was intentional since it can be argued the new queen range make the supply depot not necessary, the discussion itself suggest it is not "obvious" a bug; we did not know for sure it was a bug until after this thread. How can you claim after the fact that it was "an obvious bug" when it was not obvious at all?
It's been there for 2weeks, not the whole season.
And a lot of people weren't sure since John said it wasn't a bug at first when people were really questioning it the instant they saw it in the live report thread.
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It still seems like GhostKing exploited that bug...Then again, he went 3-0 so he had a good shot at winning anyways.
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On July 13 2012 03:49 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:43 dust.89 wrote:On July 13 2012 02:51 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 02:50 Titorelli wrote:
What an epic GOM fail... Thanks for the info, I was wondering how Nestea couldve lost to Byun... He lost the other two games pretty bad also... Seems kind of unprofessional for Byun to exploit an obvious bug, and it's really inevitable that this is going to take away from his otherwise convincing win. Would it really hurt him that much to just report the bug when he noticed it instead of trying to exploit it? He won a game with it but it definitely showed some lack of sportsmanship there. How is that an obvious bug though? It's been there whole season; it's standard for ladder map; no one ever thought it was a bug before that game, including his practice partners (Zerg players), whom I'm sure he used exact build on (and no, CoCa did not conspire with him to abuse it, that's just silly); there were discussion during L/R thread to whether it was intentional since it can be argued the new queen range make the supply depot not necessary, the discussion itself suggest it is not "obvious" a bug; we did not know for sure it was a bug until after this thread. How can you claim after the fact that it was "an obvious bug" when it was not obvious at all?
Ok I may be wrong, but isn't it normal for all GSL maps to have a depot at the ramp? It would be very unusual for such an important change to be made without informing the players too, and only to a specific map.
Anyway for Byun to notice such a change and to plan his strategy around it, without at least checking that it was a deliberate change (highly unlikely), seems to imply he knew it was a bug. IMO it's really hard to say that Byun was not out to exploit this from what I read. I guess he's not really obligated to report it, but to gain an advantage like this is hardly commendable.
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It's amazing that people missed it, I mean I definitely didn't notice, but then again the viewers aren't as acquainted with the maps as GomTV or the people in charge of the maps themselves.
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Regarding what Byun did, it's frowned upon, but I'll be honest, Byun completely outclassed nestea in games 2 and 3. It's not like DRG vs Naniwa where if they played another Bo5 naniwa might win. With the response nestea did, even if there was a depot he could've still lost to a bunker rush because he only pulled 2 drones. From recent games most zergs pull around a half dozen to stop a 2 rax because when the situation isn't snowballing out of control, it's much more manageable. Losing like that sucks, but a 3 time GSL champion should honestly be able to shrug it off, and recover mentally in time for the next game.
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EPT
