On July 09 2012 00:55 BWalma wrote: Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
Just read the other posts how its easier to embrace a new genre then going to a "crappier" version of a game with updated graphics.
No I dont think thats true. Yes we wanted a game like BW because it was so much better and unique compared to any other RTS ever. I dont think all BW fans wanted a BW in 3D. At least I didnt.
I think what most bw fans wanted is that bw remains how it was, because thats what they love. It was just blizzard that pushed SC2 out and wanted to make money.
well i want good units that made the game fun like vulture(mines) reaver , good mutas. and not trash boring "i 1a over u collo hellions and shit mutas" units
You know, sine WoL came out i've been 100% certain that I will be Day 1 buying each SCII expansion. After Diablo 3 *cough* fiasco/bull shit *cough* I'm not so sure about HotS, back then I was thinking along the lines of 'but there is no alternative'. Now I know that there is. This thread has seriously got me thinking, I was lurking here since mid 2008, I love Team Liquid, have been coming here everyday for years but in the last half-year I cant remember going into a thread in the SC2 section. It's all General and Sport's and Games. i look at the tournament 'on air' bar, see some random SC2 tournament has 15k viewers and go 'meh', but a 500 view Proleague match used to get me hyped as shit. I don't know about you guys but I just get a feeling of melancholy when I think about the state of starcraft today. The only people that wanted a modern BW port were Team Liquid and Korea. I wonder how Kotik reacted when they suggested making a AA or AAA title for about 10k people in the West. Sigh
On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
Dude
1: When SC2 gets better than BW, I will switch and enjoy it. But why the fuck should I do it now? I don't care if it's going to get better than BW in 5 years, right now it isn't.
2: Even if BW had the easy mechanics of SC2, it would still be a better game. It has more interesting races, better design, and is more intellectualy stimulating. Once you get good at BW and you learn the mechanics, they are no longer an issue anyway. And when you get to that level, you realize that BW has more fun and interesting strategy.
Or maybe you don't. Maybe you prefer SC2, and that's fine if you really do like SC2 more. But that's all it is - you like SC2 more. Don't give me all this bullshit about not wanting to move on, being bitter, and so on.
Besides, what's wrong with having mechanical requirements and skill-based things in a game? It is a REAL TIME strategy game. Speed is always going to matter more or less. If you don't like that, that's fine, but it does not make the game worse. A fighting game that has hard combos isn't worse than a fighting game that has easy combos. The game takes both strategic thinking and skill-based execution, and there is nothing wrong with that. And if you remove all mechanics from both SC2 and BW, I will still prefer BW.
It's just a better game for me, that's it. There is no nostalgia, prejudice, or bias. Some people like BW and DotA but not SC2. Some people like SC2 but not BW. That's all there is to it, stop making a big deal out of the people who like BW and DotA but not SC2.
Edit: And when I say mechanics are no longer an issue, I mean that they no longer impede your enjoyment of the game, or limit which strategies you can use. Mechanics and speed become part of the strategic game. It is a resource that you must spend wisely. You can also force your opponent to spend it certain areas, and use strategies that take less apm for you than it takes for him to respond. It adds another strategic layer to the game.
I can't say for the others, but something tells me that BW even in its earlier years was fucking entertaining. Just go back and watch some Boxer games. Even though I started watching PL in 2008, I still enjoy Garimto games now. If you ask me, I think that in general, the overall quality of modern games deteriorated. God damn business. Being a guy, who went crazy about Fallout2,1 I simply can't play modern games, they are just insincere and generally weak in plot. They are easy, affordable and full of cliches. Now the only games I can play is some indie shit, that still has this god's spark in them. And this is so god damn true just about anything in the world: music, art, cinema, literature.
What seems to be misunderstood by a lot of people is that actually, most BW players before SC2 release were super impatient to play SC2, including most of current SC2 haters. I mean, I love(d) BW so much, when SC2 was announced, I put an SC2 wallpaper on my laptop, I was looking for SC2 news all day long for months, I even put my MSN status as "Hell, it's about time !" (yes, people still used MSN back then haha), etc. I have never waited for a game as much as SC2 in my life.
But when it was released, I was utterly disappointed. I didn't enjoy the game at all, playing and watching felt so dull (and still does now), there is an omnipresent feeling that something is missing. But I have to admit that if it wasn't for BW, SC2 would probably be the best RTS ever, so I can't even say that it's a bad game, although the new B.net was/is clearly awful. Then people (sponsors, friends, Blizzard - lol at Blizzard thinking they're gonna be successful on the asian market by painting SC2 marines on planes...) tried to shove it down my throat. Even a colleague at office (who's a bronze noob) was regularly asking me with a mocking tone "do people still play BW rofl ?"
And on TL, it's so hard not to become a hater. One must really resist. The most annoying to me was posters accusing BW lovers to find the game superior just because of nostalgia and could really not understand at all that one could find BW better. I'm sure many of those guy were of good faith, they were not even trolling, they just didn't get it that people could prefer an old 2d game with single building selection and capped unit selection over SC2.
I still play BW almost everyday and I will as long as I can. Since I am also a huge J-RPG fan but haven't played a single game outside of BW for the last seven years, I will probably catchup and played all the good RPGs I missed during those 7 years.
Dota/LoL feels worse than SC2, I don't know why many people think that players who still prefer BW over SC2 would rather switch to a MOBA. I know Kona did and he's someone I respect, but he's not the general case. MOBA is really a different genre.
Right now I am enjoying every second of the last OSL. If I didn't already fly to Korea just to watch the last PL Grand Finals live, I'd fly to watch the last OSL Finals and probably come a week early to watch the Flash vs Fantasy semis. That shit's gonna be epic.
I didn't mean to make such a long post, I thought for a long time writing a long blog about my love for BW for my 5000th post, but I have a feeling it will not end well, so I'll just go back to contribute to BW Liquipedia silently, and watch the Chinese BW scene that Caihead is helping us to explore. (check it out if you haven't yet, and if you can bear commentary in Mandarin)
I would lie if I said I understood how a BW fan anyone can enjoy, as a spectator, a genre of games that is only about teamwork, strategy, decisions and knowledge with an almost non-existent level of skill of any kind.
Almost half of the reason I never truly got into SC2 and am now slowly growing out of it completely is because of its similarities to moba games in that regard - because almost all the games in SC2 are decided by strategy and decision making. I just can't admire how 99.9% players play because there's just not a lot special or (physically) skillful or impressive in how they do it.
Unless we're talking about Smite which I hope becomes the future of the moba genre (if not that, then another game inspired by it).
The only problem I see, and makes me doubt the sincerity of their statement, is when people say they find SC2 to be an inferior rts, therefore not worth enjoying, but then say they enjoy LoL. Now, there is nothing wrong with the first part, not liking SC2 because it is inferior(which it currently is) in it's genre, and nothing wrong with the second part, liking LoL. But surely people see the irony in liking LoL when their reason for disliking SC2 is that it's inferior in it's genre?
Note: I am no way saying that LoL is bad, it's quite good, just inferior to dota. That's not a terrible thing, more a testament to how good dota was, similar to how BW is to SC2.
On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
Dude
1: When SC2 gets better than BW, I will switch and enjoy it. But why the fuck should I do it now? I don't care if it's going to get better than BW in 5 years, right now it isn't.
2: Even if BW had the easy mechanics of SC2, it would still be a better game. It has more interesting races, better design, and is more intellectualy stimulating. Once you get good at BW and you learn the mechanics, they are no longer an issue anyway. And when you get to that level, you realize that BW has more fun and interesting strategy.
Or maybe you don't. Maybe you prefer SC2, and that's fine if you really do like SC2 more. But that's all it is - you like SC2 more. Don't give me all this bullshit about not wanting to move on, being bitter, and so on.
Besides, what's wrong with having mechanical requirements and skill-based things in a game? It is a REAL TIME strategy game. Speed is always going to matter more or less. If you don't like that, that's fine, but it does not make the game worse. A fighting game that has hard combos isn't worse than a fighting game that has easy combos. The game takes both strategic thinking and skill-based execution, and there is nothing wrong with that. And if you remove all mechanics from both SC2 and BW, I will still prefer BW.
It's just a better game for me, that's it. There is no nostalgia, prejudice, or bias. Some people like BW and DotA but not SC2. Some people like SC2 but not BW. That's all there is to it, stop making a big deal out of the people who like BW and DotA but not SC2.
Edit: And when I say mechanics are no longer an issue, I mean that they no longer impede your enjoyment of the game, or limit which strategies you can use. Mechanics and speed become part of the strategic game. It is a resource that you must spend wisely. You can also force your opponent to spend it certain areas, and use strategies that take less apm for you than it takes for him to respond. It adds another strategic layer to the game.
I can't say for the others, but something tells me that BW even in its earlier years was fucking entertaining. Just go back and watch some Boxer games. Even though I started watching PL in 2008, I still enjoy Garimto games now. If you ask me, I think that in general, the overall quality of modern games deteriorated. God damn business. Being a guy, who went crazy about Fallout2,1 I simply can't play modern games, they are just insincere and generally weak in plot. They are easy, affordable and full of cliches. Now the only games I can play is some indie shit, that still has this god's spark in them. And this is so god damn true just about anything in the world: music, art, cinema, literature.
i think, objectively, the game qualities were understandably worse, but the games had more heart. there was always more or less a story arc in every OSL (less so in MSL, and you get the odd winners here and there)
On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
Dude
1: When SC2 gets better than BW, I will switch and enjoy it. But why the fuck should I do it now? I don't care if it's going to get better than BW in 5 years, right now it isn't.
2: Even if BW had the easy mechanics of SC2, it would still be a better game. It has more interesting races, better design, and is more intellectualy stimulating. Once you get good at BW and you learn the mechanics, they are no longer an issue anyway. And when you get to that level, you realize that BW has more fun and interesting strategy.
Or maybe you don't. Maybe you prefer SC2, and that's fine if you really do like SC2 more. But that's all it is - you like SC2 more. Don't give me all this bullshit about not wanting to move on, being bitter, and so on.
Besides, what's wrong with having mechanical requirements and skill-based things in a game? It is a REAL TIME strategy game. Speed is always going to matter more or less. If you don't like that, that's fine, but it does not make the game worse. A fighting game that has hard combos isn't worse than a fighting game that has easy combos. The game takes both strategic thinking and skill-based execution, and there is nothing wrong with that. And if you remove all mechanics from both SC2 and BW, I will still prefer BW.
It's just a better game for me, that's it. There is no nostalgia, prejudice, or bias. Some people like BW and DotA but not SC2. Some people like SC2 but not BW. That's all there is to it, stop making a big deal out of the people who like BW and DotA but not SC2.
Edit: And when I say mechanics are no longer an issue, I mean that they no longer impede your enjoyment of the game, or limit which strategies you can use. Mechanics and speed become part of the strategic game. It is a resource that you must spend wisely. You can also force your opponent to spend it certain areas, and use strategies that take less apm for you than it takes for him to respond. It adds another strategic layer to the game.
I can't say for the others, but something tells me that BW even in its earlier years was fucking entertaining. Just go back and watch some Boxer games. Even though I started watching PL in 2008, I still enjoy Garimto games now. If you ask me, I think that in general, the overall quality of modern games deteriorated. God damn business. Being a guy, who went crazy about Fallout2,1 I simply can't play modern games, they are just insincere and generally weak in plot. They are easy, affordable and full of cliches. Now the only games I can play is some indie shit, that still has this god's spark in them. And this is so god damn true just about anything in the world: music, art, cinema, literature.
i think, objectively, the game qualities were understandably worse, but the games had more heart. there was always more or less a story arc in every OSL (less so in MSL, and you get the odd winners here and there)
StarCraft 1 after 2 years was in my opinion more fun than StarCraft 2 after 2 years.
And SC1 when it was brand new was better than SC2 when it was brand new. They were both imbalanced pieces of shit by modern standards, but at least SC1 had fun units and races.
Edit: But like I said earlier, even if SC2 becomes good in 5 years (and I have no reason to believe that it will), there is no reason to play it now.
I love the excuse of "well sc2 is new, vanilla starcraft wasn't great either", as if Blizzard started 100% from scratch with sc2 as opposed to build up on 12 years of sc1 (and bw).
Dota/LoL is a fun/social (and BM/angry) game which IMO is what BW made up for by its huge professional scene.
IDK about anyone else here but laddering 1v1 on SC ladder just isn't as exciting or fun as playing a game of HoN or whatnot. Let's be honest here, if you think about it, SC2 and BW are honestly quite tedious to play and isn't the right cup of tea for the average, casual gamer.
Oh grant us your wisdom, wise OP. Tell us what we think and why we think it! Give us a narrow range of options, one of which must represent us exactly, so that we may be categorised into your theory and have our strange, incorrect behaviour explained by your conclusions.
On July 09 2012 18:32 peidongyang wrote: Let's be honest here, if you think about it, SC2 and BW are honestly quite tedious to play
I thought people had stopped saying "let's be honest here". MANY PEOPLE DO NOT THINK THIS. Believe it or not. Watch this-
Let's be honest here, nobody really likes baseball. It's slower than football, and the crowds aren't always as big.
You see what I did? I took my own personal opinion, and imposed it upon everyone else in the world, as if it were an undeniable truth.
On July 09 2012 18:17 moopie wrote: I love the excuse of "well sc2 is new, vanilla starcraft wasn't great either", as if Blizzard started 100% from scratch with sc2 as opposed to build up on 12 years of sc1 (and bw).
They have problems with that. Showcased in SC2/Diablo 3.
It does seems to me that people that make these kinds of threads are simply SC2 fans that know almost nothing about BW and come to claim they love BW etc etc and create such threads just to see us BW fans grief and react when our favourite game gets phased out, while taking the opportunity to get some sort of entertainment out of it while accidently revealing their true nature by posting foolishly.
EPT
