I am not sure if this is the best place to ask this question, but this is the BW board so I guess it makes sense to ask it here. If there's a better place, please let me know/move the thread.
Please don't be offended by this because I'm only asking based on what I observe in these forums. Essentially from what I understand, BW fans hate SC2.
Like really, really, REALLY hate SC2. I don't really get this, I started playing/watching BW myself but was pretty excited when SC2 came out, and even though the pro games aren't as high level as BroodWar games were and nor were the players as talented, I still had hope that maybe the game would evolve over time and the pro scene would become more exciting to watch as well.
The thing that I'm gonna ask about is that I've noticed a lot of BW fans have decided to start playing/watching Dota2 and LoL over SC2. Now this is something I genuinely cannot understand. Coming from the perspective of someone who has played/watched RTS games, it just seems ludicrous to me to think that Dota2 or LoL offers even half the entertainment of BW/SC2. To me it just seems odd how some people could genuinely prefer these games over SC2, in fact I have a hard time believing it's a genuine enjoyment of MOBAs.
To me there are three possibilities that I see, and I've listed them here in order of likelihood as I see it:
1. The first group of people are BW fans who are so upset that SC2 is not literally BW in 3D that they can't stand the concept of ever switching to SC2 or trying to enjoy playing/watching it. Also the thought of KeSPA players playing SC2 seems like a blasphemy to these people. I think that these people are so disgusted by SC2 as a game, that they've decided to proudly parade how much they think Dota2 and LoL are better games than SC2 just to spite the game and SC2 fans.
2. The second group of people are fans who believe that Korea somehow 'understands' eSports and what a good eSport is better than every other country, and that playing games that Korea doesn't like/enjoy as much is stupid. These people probably saw how Korean fans didn't take to SC2, but loved LoL. So they decided that because of this, LoL must be a legitimately more interesting game than SC2, because of course this is the same country that started professional Broodwar.
3. The third and least likely possibility I see is people who actually, genuinely, in their hearts, believe that Dota2 and LoL is a better eSport than SC2. Now people don't get me wrong MOBA fans, your games are great in their own right. But coming from an RTS background I just don't see how anyone could find it exciting to watch or even play. The game feels slow and boring when I actually play it, watching it I have no idea what I'm supposed to be impressed or entertained by. I try to imagine how hard it would be for people to cast 4v4 BW/SC2 games seriously and how little the results would actually seem to matter given how bizarrely games with that many teammates can turn out. From a spectator standpoint it just seems like too much random crap going on at once, and that seems to be exactly the case with Dota2/LoL. I think if these people come from a BW background, they probably haven't given watching the GSL or something a try.
So what is the deal exactly? Why do so many BW fans like MOBA games so much over SC2?
I think it's because while DotA is not as amazing as Brood War, it is in a different genre of games than Brood War. This makes it easier to transition to. StarCraft 2 is in the same genre as Brood War, but much worse.
It's easier to change to something that is different altogether, than something that is just inferior. SC2 is just a shitty RTS, an inferior version of SC1, but DotA is something different. When you're used to playing a good RTS, switching to a mediocre one is harder than switching to a DotA game.
I have switched to LoL some time ago because I have hosting and lag issues in BW. And my friends play LoL, and it's pretty fun playing together with them. and it seems like you can't think of people liking a game outside of it being an espart.
On July 08 2012 23:34 vOdToasT wrote: I think it's because while DotA is not as amazing as Brood War, it is in a different genre of games than Brood War. This makes it easier to transition to. StarCraft 2 is in the same genre as Brood War, but much worse.
It's easier to change to something that is different altogether, than something that is just inferior. SC2 is just a shitty RTS, an inferior version of SC1, but DotA is something different. When you're used to playing a good RTS, switching to a mediocre one is harder than switching to a DotA game.
I feel like youre getting angry that BW fans don't like SC2. Why would people switch to MOBA/ARTS games to spite SC2? How would that even work? You already presume that SC2 is great and anyone from an RTS background who doesn't enjoy it as much as you think they should hasn't given it a shot or is just flat out wrong.
I played SC2 pretty extensively, but it really just never sat well with me. Maybe it's because there was already this precedent (BW) that it couldn't possibly hope to live up to, but I eventually got sick of playing SC2 since every single game felt exactly the same (internal rhyme ftl) and scoured around for other games to play. Happened to land a Dota2 key, have been enjoying my time there. What says I have to give a shit about ESPORTS and the like?
Ive noticed and read that many SC2 players and even BW pros have started to play LoL completely or after practice. I wonder hows the viewer numbers on OGN's LoL tournament.
Okay 65% of my peers are gamer. Out of that, 15% are console gamers, 20% are mobile gaming. 5% are into PC FPS. What did happen was that when SC2 came out around 70% of them played it. And now, only 2% stills plays and by my previous statistics, the other 60% are ALL moba gamers. They enjoy LoL/DotA 2 much more than SC2.
Other than me, there are 2 other guys who are into RTS. One of them plays the CnC series, another one follows War3 and a tiny bit of SC2. So I am pretty much alone in the Brood War boat. So it hit me, if I am going to try SC2, I am going to be alone on it anyways. I am not going to get into details of other reasons beside the social angle of it. So because MANY and I'll say MANY of pals plays mobas, might as well use my Brood War mechanics and prove to them of my superiority in hardcore gaming. Thus conjuring up competition.
Another reason is that Blizzard have placed a bounty on Brood War and SC2 is the hitman. I shall never forgive for that.
Players usually critic the games they play over things like sound, game play, customization, etc. these same players played BW, so they see through criticizing SC2 that SC2 is actually "inferior" as vOdToasT put it. These other games are of a different genre, enjoyed by others that played BW, and as such there is already a connection to these games. SC2 on the other hand feels like a company is trying to force a connection (focusing SC2 around 1v1 and tournaments while losing some of the things that made BW great) to a game "that is just inferior".
The thing is, even after sc2, dota, dota2, and hon were never recognized. Mostly in Europe did dota flourished Before sc2.the number one reason bw fans are changing to lol is because its popular and Koreans are following it. Korean bw was what got them into bw. even if Koreans change to street fighter, no doubt everyone would be into it. The main reason sc2 is ignored by bw fans is because they"re bw fans. If u give them a game that's in the same genre; of course they'll fight and defend their game to the end. It's not often the question of design and gameplay, its just pop culture dictated by Korean media. Sc2 being a social stigma back then with the kespa blizzard conflict just made it hard to ever promote sc2 for news so they turned to lol.
I've switched to LoL and I'm just about to start Dota2 as I got invited. I guess after spending a huge chunk of my childhood/teenage years on BW, SC2 just doesn't interest me. I tried playing it but I ended up just going back to BW before stop playing BW completely even if I still watch progames here and there. The Korean scene has moved from BW to LoL so I find the transition to be rather smooth, and a couple of my close friends play LoL so I have some social motivation to play the game. I'm pretty excited to start playing Dota2 but when it comes to SC2... I can't really say I care too much about HotS.
SC2 was disappointing as a game and its scene never really captured me. GOM is incredibly boring compared to BW's televised leagues.
It's not fans "switching" imo, bw fans are going to be bw fans or cease to be bw fans, whether a bw fan develops interest in another game is irrelevant of if he's a bw fan or not, since every other association (be it sc2 because it carries the same name, LoL because it's on the same ogn channel / is on tl, tic tac toe because your friend plays it, w/e) is completely circumstantial.
BW and SC2 are the same genre and are both ment to be played competitive, means you'll have to put in a lot of effort if you want to be good at one, so most people just play the one that they like more, for their competitive side. If they just want to play for fun they try MOBA games because its still competitive (and therefore fun for the competitive player) but not that unvorgifing, because if your doing a mistake someone else from the team might make up for it. Also they can play it with their friends (even if there is a skill difference).
Well thats at least my oppinion, I'll keep playing bw no matter what because I simply love it ^.^ (Tried DotA, didn't like it)
In reality, the silent majority watch more SC2 than BW. But, the people that made Teamliquid what it is today are having a hard time dealing with SC2. I am with the OP on the asking of the question: Why so much hate? Then I realized, these are the same people who hate LeBron James for leaving a crumby, poorly ran organization to a better organization with better talent. If Google offered me a job, I would leave my current job for it.
On July 08 2012 23:55 catabowl wrote: In reality, the silent majority watch more SC2 than BW. But, the people that made Teamliquid what it is today are having a hard time dealing with SC2. I am with the OP on the asking of the question: Why so much hate? Then I realized, these are the same people who hate LeBron James for leaving a crumby, poorly ran organization to a better organization with better talent. If Google offered me a job, I would leave my current job for it.
What the fuck.
I played thosuands of matches and watched many matches in both games, and I think Brood War is better. How does that make me a LeBron hater?
It is not I who is biased, it is you. I am very certain you have not played, studied, and learned both games. If you had, you wouldn't believe that BW fans prefer BW for such a stupid reason. You would just prefer SC2 as game over BW.
On July 08 2012 23:55 catabowl wrote: In reality, the silent majority watch more SC2 than BW. But, the people that made Teamliquid what it is today are having a hard time dealing with SC2. I am with the OP on the asking of the question: Why so much hate? Then I realized, these are the same people who hate LeBron James for leaving a crumby, poorly ran organization to a better organization with better talent. If Google offered me a job, I would leave my current job for it.
I just, no, it's two different things you are looking at here okay. When you say "Brood war fans need to move on and stop hating SC2", you are saying 1. BW fans need to stop being BW fans. and then 2. These originally BW fans need to become SC2 fans. 2 is a completely different issue from 1.
Oh God yet another SC2 crusader to liberate illogical haters or elitist snobs or DOTA infidels (take your pick!). I'm not putting words into your mouth here, that's literally what your points make us out to be.
I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
I'm a BW guy who played and watched SC2 for a bit. I don't hate it at all, I just sort of lost interest in it after awhile. I switched to LoL because I found it fun, nothing more nothing less. The two are not connected except that with less SC2 I have more time to play and watch LoL. Nowadays I play a bunch of DayZ cause it's the new thing I find fun.
This is just what happens in video games. No need to over-analyze something simple like us just enjoying watching LoL/DOTA more than SC2.
Now this is something I genuinely cannot understand. Coming from the perspective of someone who has played/watched RTS games, it just seems ludicrous to me to think that Dota2 or LoL offers even half the entertainment of BW/SC2. To me it just seems odd how some people could genuinely prefer these games over SC2, in fact I have a hard time believing it's a genuine enjoyment of MOBAs.
Well, I've read quite a lot of similar discussions, and I find it sort of funny (maybe even ironic if this the indeed an appropriate instance to use that word) that the very reasons that you've stated that Dota and LoL suck are more or less the very same reasons that BW fans say SC2 sucks.
I genuinely enjoy watching Dota 2, especially with Tobi Wan casting (he is as awesome as Tastosis) playing it less so due to dickhead random teammates calling each other noob, but I don't even tune in to SC2 anymore as I find it to be, in my opinion, unexciting and very formulaic.
But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I hope you feel the same way and just let everyone make their own choices on what they play and watch.
Well as a long time fan/player of BW I can tell you that I dont hate SC2. But it did fall very short of the high expectations I had for it. Id rather play C&C Red Alert 2 than SC2.
But I switched from BW to SC2, then from SC2 back to BW and finally BW to LoL (I still play BW with irl friends only once in a huge while). I have a lot of friends who play LoL. We have a legitimately fun time together. Is it as fun as BW? No. But its easy to get new people into, its f2p, it is easy to pick up but difficult to master. With my time constraints of work/wife/baby I dont have the time to put into BW to enjoy it outside of playing with friends.
I think people seriously need to stop flaming the other communities. Forget BW vs SC2 vs LoL/Dota. Just play what you like and enjoy the fact that everyone is different. Ignore anyone who is advertently or inadvertently trying to start an argument. If any game lives or dies in korea, Im not gonna let that influence what I do in any way. I dont really give a crap about people's opinions on the other side of the planet in terms of what is a good game or not.
I can't understand for the life of me what about a MOBA game is fun to watch, let alone play. The skillsets needed are different than bw/sc2 (underwhelming skillsets), but there's a massive lack of depth.
On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
Dude
1: When SC2 gets better than BW, I will switch and enjoy it. But why the fuck should I do it now? I don't care if it's going to get better than BW in 5 years, right now it isn't.
2: Even if BW had the easy mechanics of SC2, it would still be a better game. It has more interesting races, better design, and is more intellectualy stimulating. Once you get good at BW and you learn the mechanics, they are no longer an issue anyway. And when you get to that level, you realize that BW has more fun and interesting strategy.
Or maybe you don't. Maybe you prefer SC2, and that's fine if you really do like SC2 more. But that's all it is - you like SC2 more. Don't give me all this bullshit about not wanting to move on, being bitter, and so on.
Besides, what's wrong with having mechanical requirements and skill-based things in a game? It is a REAL TIME strategy game. Speed is always going to matter more or less. If you don't like that, that's fine, but it does not make the game worse. A fighting game that has hard combos isn't worse than a fighting game that has easy combos. The game takes both strategic thinking and skill-based execution, and there is nothing wrong with that. And if you remove all mechanics from both SC2 and BW, I will still prefer BW.
It's just a better game for me, that's it. There is no nostalgia, prejudice, or bias. Some people like BW and DotA but not SC2. Some people like SC2 but not BW. That's all there is to it, stop making a big deal out of the people who like BW and DotA but not SC2.
Edit: And when I say mechanics are no longer an issue, I mean that they no longer impede your enjoyment of the game, or limit which strategies you can use. Mechanics and speed become part of the strategic game. It is a resource that you must spend wisely. You can also force your opponent to spend it certain areas, and use strategies that take less apm for you than it takes for him to respond. It adds another strategic layer to the game.
On July 09 2012 00:21 Zenbrez wrote: I can't understand for the life of me what about a MOBA game is fun to watch, let alone play. The skillsets needed are different than bw/sc2, but there's a massive lack of depth.
as someone who followed both bw and dota for a long time, i can safely say that dota has much more depth than bw
On July 09 2012 00:21 Zenbrez wrote: I can't understand for the life of me what about a MOBA game is fun to watch, let alone play. The skillsets needed are different than bw/sc2, but there's a massive lack of depth.
as someone who followed both bw and dota for a long time, i can safely say that dota has much more depth than bw
erm. i imagine if BW had 5v5 2048x2048 maps it would have more depth than dota
edit nvm my argument is terrible. As someone who has played dota for years in lans, I understand what your meaning of "depth" is, but it's just dumb comparing the two games. Fps' also have "depth" in the limit of handling and team work but you can't compare those to an rts.
I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now
Okay you got to love this argument, so let's put it this way previously blizzard has been producing really good games diablo 1 and 2 and starcraft 1 and bw . However since the latest production of it's latest game seems really bad compared to it's old version should we give them time to grow ? . Yeah we should ? you know why ? Because we want to play games that does not follow the same basics and fundamentals and huge improvements that have been brought to the game all this years . Broodwar completed starcraft with medics and etc . Diablo 2 LOD expansion made the game much more interesting with it's update however We can kiss this good bye and trash everything we have learn in 10 years because we just don't like playing the same old thing . Let's make AH and RMAH so D3 will fit the casual crowds also make the drops really bad and make diablo a MMO and lets throw all the strategic elements and excitement we learn from broodwar because casual players can't handle it .
We don't want to move forwards instead most of the guys who want to give a leverage to new blizzard's new game wants to go back to the stone age and that's quite fine to me . Good luck though and enjoy your new games.
On July 08 2012 23:38 GTR wrote: All BW fans hate SC2? That is one of the dumbest overgeneralization's I've read on this forum.
I kind of get this impression when I come on the BW forums thought, and the complete lack of PL spectators is kinda evidence of the fact.
Not liking a game is not the same as hating it. Why would BW fans like SC2 anyway? It's not the same game. It's very different. Liking one game does not mean liking the other.
well i played SC2 then i played LoL now im playing a lot of LoL/DotA2 >> SC2
i only switched because i never found a way to fix Window7 crashes on BW (i tried to find a solution. it ended up being windowed mode but i dont like it.)
On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
That bw is that hard to play mechanically is exactly what I like in bw more then in SC2. It makes it more challenging, you have to do more decicions (i.e. should I macro now or first have a look at my hydras before I lose them to a single storm), it makes for an interesting play and its awesome watching amazing control from pros. The mechanics in bw are hard, but they arent only hard for you but for your oponent too, so its fair. Some people like that it requires good mechanics and some don't. Everyone should play what he enjoys, and let the other players play what they enjoy. Simple as that.
Been watching and playing Dota2 more than BW for several months now. I can't exactly pinpoint when this switch occurred but i can tell you why. 2010/2011 BW was ending, but it didn't matter because goddam the games were at the highest level they've ever been. Then suddenly in 2012 everything turns to shit. SC2 becomes the flagship RTS game and it just doesn't measure up. SC2 might be a pretty good game in absolute terms however in relative terms (which is the way BW fans have to judge it because we know what the benchmark is) it is a failed abomination.
And so for myself being a fan of SC2 isn't possible simply because it occupies the same RTS genre that BW does.
That leaves BW fans searching for another BW but not BW in the sense of a carbon-copy but BW as a game that offers the tippy top of gameplay irrespective of genre.
TLDR: WE JUST LIKE GOOD GAMES. AND OUR MEASURE OF GOOD IS STRICTER THAN YOURS. / elitist.
On July 09 2012 00:31 Kenpachi wrote: well i played SC2 then i played LoL now im playing a lot of LoL/DotA2 >> SC2
i only switched because i never found a way to fix Window7 crashes on BW (i tried to find a solution. it ended up being windowed mode but i dont like it.)
Switch your computer's resolution to 640x480 and position StarCraft in the middle of your screen, then push the keyboard hotkey to lock it in place. That's how I play StarCraft and it works perfectly. It's the same as playing in fullscreen.
Edit: Also, I recommend playing on Fish instead of iCCup.
Well, I hope most switch to Dota 2 then. God LoL is just so boring. I actually like SC2, but going from WC3 Dota to LoL is as bad as going from BW to SC2 is to a diehard BW fan. Meanwhile, Dota 2 is just amazing, it captures the essence of WC3 dota beautifully.
On July 09 2012 00:37 mordk wrote: Well, I hope most switch to Dota 2 then. God LoL is just so boring. I actually like SC2, but going from WC3 Dota to LoL is as bad as going from BW to SC2 is to a diehard BW fan. Meanwhile, Dota 2 is just amazing, it captures the essence of WC3 dota beautifully.
On July 09 2012 00:32 ShadeR wrote: Then suddenly in 2012 everything turns to shit.
I find that has really affected me in the past months. After an earlier epic end of the Jin Air OSL and an incredible SPL which all had epic back and forth games that had me on the edge of my seat, I'm now treated to watching Motive flounder in BW and Bisu flounder in SC2, and while the OSL provides a decent send-off with FvF on the horizon, it sucks knowing they aren't playing 100% and giving us the best games they can.
1 complete round later, Hybrid Proleague is still stupid, and that means I'm not watching it.
And to explain how RTS players can find MOBA interesting and deep. MOBA's add the new element of teamwork. This completely changes how we have to look at strategy. Teamwork and synergy is at least as important if not more so than individual skill. Also in MOBAs we can see more exciting feats of micro than in RTS.
I think it's ridiculous to imply that BW fans hate SC2 so much they are going to another game they don't enjoy as much. As for you not understanding why we like LoL/DOTA, that's okay, but realize it's just a matter of preference and taste. I don't get how people can like black licorice for example, but I'm not self-centered enough to think they are eating it just to get back at me.
Edit: also I think it would be interesting to see if a higher percentage of RTS players like to play roles in MOBA that control and dictate the pace of the game (such as jungler). I find myself enjoying that kind of position more than roles where you are focused on the tactics needed to win the lane than the overall big picture (although the interesting and frustrating part of this is that you not only have to create the strategy, you also have to have the leadership skills to get 4 people/strangers to follow you).
I don't care about esport quality at all, I play games because they're fun and if they happen to be viable for competitive play, that's a bonus. I find LoL fun, SC2 I just can't get into. Maybe I'll be inspired to play it after I go to NASL...
I've actually heard that LoL is like the SC2 of moba games when compared to Dota 2. I've played the original Dota but never the second, maybe I should check it out.
Man, it never crossed my mind until I read this thread but when the pro teams and MBC Game shut down this forum manifested itself into a public, group walk-through of the five stages of grief. Fascinating.
On July 09 2012 00:42 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: I don't care about esport quality at all, I play games because they're fun and if they happen to be viable for competitive play, that's a bonus. I find LoL fun, SC2 I just can't get into. Maybe I'll be inspired to play it after I go to NASL...
I've actually heard that LoL is like the SC2 of moba games when compared to Dota 2. I've played the original Dota but never the second, maybe I should check it out.
yo let me know if you need a key or if you wanna play bw again sometime
On July 09 2012 00:47 JeffGoldblum wrote: Man, it never crossed my mind until I read this thread but when the pro teams and MBC Game shut down this forum manifested itself into a public, group walk-through of the five stages of grief. Fascinating.
Maybe if people could motivate themselves to developing native bw scenes and spent their frustration on positive motivation this wouldn't be the case.
3. The third and least likely possibility I see is people who actually, genuinely, in their hearts, believe that Dota2 and LoL is a better eSport than SC2. Now people don't get me wrong MOBA fans, your games are great in their own right. But coming from an RTS background I just don't see how anyone could find it exciting to watch or even play. The game feels slow and boring when I actually play it, watching it I have no idea what I'm supposed to be impressed or entertained by. I try to imagine how hard it would be for people to cast 4v4 BW/SC2 games seriously and how little the results would actually seem to matter given how bizarrely games with that many teammates can turn out. From a spectator standpoint it just seems like too much random crap going on at once, and that seems to be exactly the case with Dota2/LoL. I think if these people come from a BW background, they probably haven't given watching the GSL or something a try.
sc2 has never ever made me sit back in my seat and mouth some weird sounds because my brain cannot take the awesomeness that just happened on my screen like dota has.
dota2 is easily a much better spectator experience for me than sc2, and i have watched a shitton of sc2 in the past one and a half years.
you know why it looks like random shit flying around? because you don't know anything about the heroes, the skills, the items. of course you're not going to understand anything.
there is at least one WOW moment in every high level game in dota2. a clutch black hole brings out the same kinds of reactions as a clutch scarab shot, a clutch storm, a shuttle snipe, a massive plague.
on the other hand, i can't remember the last pimp play i watched in a sc2 match.
On July 09 2012 00:47 JeffGoldblum wrote: Man, it never crossed my mind until I read this thread but when the pro teams and MBC Game shut down this forum manifested itself into a public, group walk-through of the five stages of grief. Fascinating.
Wouldn't say 5 stages.
Its more like hoping for better games and just for the best that BW can offer to us.
In any cases, the 5 stages of grief have even started yet for many of us. And that will be after the OSL final. But I am sure that I will be pretty far with MOBAs to bother grieving tho.
On July 08 2012 23:38 GTR wrote: All BW fans hate SC2? That is one of the dumbest overgeneralization's I've read on this forum.
All SC2 fans make dumb overgeneralizations like this all the time.
I see what you did there
As for my personal opinion, with friends / clan, moba games are superior when it comes to fun, but when you are alone, the chat in LoL is fucking disaster.
On July 09 2012 00:42 Slow Motion wrote: And to explain how RTS players can find MOBA interesting and deep. MOBA's add the new element of teamwork. This completely changes how we have to look at strategy. Teamwork and synergy is at least as important if not more so than individual skill. Also in MOBAs we can see more exciting feats of micro than in RTS.
I think it's ridiculous to imply that BW fans hate SC2 so much they are going to another game they don't enjoy as much. As for you not understanding why we like LoL/DOTA, that's okay, but realize it's just a matter of preference and taste. I don't get how people can like black licorice for example, but I'm not self-centered enough to think they are eating it just to get back at me.
Edit: also I think it would be interesting to see if a higher percentage of RTS players like to play roles in MOBA that control and dictate the pace of the game (such as jungler). I find myself enjoying that kind of position more than roles where you are focused on the tactics needed to win the lane than the overall big picture (although the interesting and frustrating part of this is that you not only have to create the strategy, you also have to have the leadership skills to get 4 people/strangers to follow you).
I am an RTS player, and I like to play tank, jungler, and support (if my team is good) the most. :D
Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
Just read the other posts how its easier to embrace a new genre then going to a "crappier" version of a game with updated graphics.
On July 09 2012 00:55 BWalma wrote: Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
Just read the other posts how its easier to embrace a new genre then going to a "crappier" version of a game with updated graphics.
I never hoped for a direct StarCraft port, I just hoped for a good game. I didn't get it.
Edit: Although now that I think about it, a direct port would have been better, since SC2 turned out to be trash in comparison.
OK I will admit that it was a poor choice of me to say that it seems like BW fans all hate SC2. I should have said that there seems to be a lot of BW fans who dislike the game and that's the impression I get. Although I will say that I've seen so many BW fans post about what a terrible game SC2 is that the only conclusion I can draw is that some people actually hate the game.
Also I will say that I like BW and SC2, and I think OSL right now is the most interesting tournament to watch. But the fact is that KeSPA/OGN want to have their players being a part of a global eSport, and because BW is so Korean-only in terms of the skill/viewers/players it is not surprising that they want to have an SC2 league. Whether or not it was a good idea to force BW players to switch to SC2 is a matter of debate (I think the ideal situation is to have two OSLs, OSL BW and OSL2 if you will and give the players the choice of what game they want to play). The Hybrid Proleague is pretty ridiculous though.
On July 09 2012 00:26 SnowFantasy wrote: SilverWolfe I'm just curious.
On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
Dude
1: When SC2 gets better than BW, I will switch and enjoy it. But why the fuck should I do it now? I don't care if it's going to get better than BW in 5 years, right now it isn't.
2: Even if BW had the easy mechanics of SC2, it would still be a better game. It has more interesting races, better design, and is more intellectualy stimulating. Once you get good at BW and you learn the mechanics, they are no longer an issue anyway. And when you get to that level, you realize that BW has more fun and interesting strategy.
Or maybe you don't. Maybe you prefer SC2, and that's fine if you really do like SC2 more. But that's all it is - you like SC2 more. Don't give me all this bullshit about not wanting to move on, being bitter, and so on.
Besides, what's wrong with having mechanical requirements and skill-based things in a game? It is a REAL TIME strategy game. Speed is always going to matter more or less. If you don't like that, that's fine, but it does not make the game worse. A fighting game that has hard combos isn't worse than a fighting game that has easy combos. The game takes both strategic thinking and skill-based execution, and there is nothing wrong with that. And if you remove all mechanics from both SC2 and BW, I will still prefer BW.
It's just a better game for me, that's it. There is no nostalgia, prejudice, or bias. Some people like BW and DotA but not SC2. Some people like SC2 but not BW. That's all there is to it, stop making a big deal out of the people who like BW and DotA but not SC2.
Edit: And when I say mechanics are no longer an issue, I mean that they no longer impede your enjoyment of the game, or limit which strategies you can use. Mechanics and speed become part of the strategic game. It is a resource that you must spend wisely. You can also force your opponent to spend it certain areas, and use strategies that take less apm for you than it takes for him to respond. It adds another strategic layer to the game.
I just want to thank you for this post. This has helped to open my eyes as to why some people prefer BW/Dota over SC2. Personally I think that if players have to spend less time on menial mechanics, they can focus their attention to more of the 'actual' game (positioning/moving units, taking bases, scouting, spellcasting etc.) which will make the game itself better, but that's just my opinion. I hadn't thought of it in terms of attention as a resource like minerals/gas.
I guess what I've gotten out of this thread is that there are people who actually like dota/LoL more than BW/SC2 which I found unbelievable but I guess it's true. To me the only games I feel I can enjoy playing/watching are BW/SC2, I have tried playing/watching Dota/LoL but I have never been able to understand why people like it. That's just me I guess.
On July 08 2012 23:22 SilverWolfe wrote: The thing that I'm gonna ask about is that I've noticed a lot of SC2 fans have decided to start playing/watching SC2 over BW. Now this is something I genuinely cannot understand. Coming from the perspective of someone who has played/watched BW, it just seems ludicrous to me to think that SC2 offers even half the entertainment of BW. To me it just seems odd how some people could genuinely prefer this game over BW, in fact I have a hard time believing it's a genuine enjoyment of SC2.
See what I did there?
It's a matter of subjective taste. You may find Starcraft 2 entertaining to watch, but that doesn't mean other people will. You may not find DotA entertaining to watch, but that doesn't mean other people won't.
I'm sorry if you find it distressing that not everyone shares your opinions, but that is something you will have to come to terms with in life.
On July 08 2012 23:22 SilverWolfe wrote: The thing that I'm gonna ask about is that I've noticed a lot of SC2 fans have decided to start playing/watching SC2 over BW. Now this is something I genuinely cannot understand. Coming from the perspective of someone who has played/watched BW, it just seems ludicrous to me to think that SC2 offers even half the entertainment of BW. To me it just seems odd how some people could genuinely prefer this game over BW, in fact I have a hard time believing it's a genuine enjoyment of SC2.
See what I did there?
It's a matter of subjective taste. You may find Starcraft 2 entertaining to watch, but that doesn't mean other people will. You may not find DotA entertaining to watch, but that doesn't mean other people won't.
I'm sorry if you find it distressing that not everyone shares your opinions, but that is something you will have to come to terms with in life.
I was just going to post about the irony in OPs post. This illustrates it pretty well :D
On July 09 2012 00:47 JeffGoldblum wrote: Man, it never crossed my mind until I read this thread but when the pro teams and MBC Game shut down this forum manifested itself into a public, group walk-through of the five stages of grief. Fascinating.
EDIT: so apparently people have no sense of humor.
The really sad part comes after the end of this OSL... I am gonna miss watching them play BW.
Oh come on. This forum has plenty of posts where people make fun of SC2 (Unimpressed Flash etc.), you guys should be able to take at least one about BW.
On July 09 2012 01:23 SilverWolfe wrote: Oh come on. This forum has plenty of posts where people make fun of SC2 (Unimpressed Flash etc.), you guys should be able to take at least one about BW.
For a 21 year old, you should be ashamed of your maturity.
On July 09 2012 01:23 SilverWolfe wrote: Oh come on. This forum has plenty of posts where people make fun of SC2 (Unimpressed Flash etc.), you guys should be able to take at least one about BW.
On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
Is this what the majority of the SC2 crowd thinks? About the outdated UI and graphics only? Its the game design that is the killer feature. Way better unit interaction, dynamics and gameplay as well as better to watch (sc2 deathballs, Current hot issue in sc2 is removing deathballs and make units dont clump up right? ).
On July 09 2012 01:23 SilverWolfe wrote: Oh come on. This forum has plenty of posts where people make fun of SC2 (Unimpressed Flash etc.), you guys should be able to take at least one about BW.
Seems more disrespectful to the dead guy than bw fans.
On July 09 2012 00:47 JeffGoldblum wrote: Man, it never crossed my mind until I read this thread but when the pro teams and MBC Game shut down this forum manifested itself into a public, group walk-through of the five stages of grief. Fascinating.
On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
Is this what the majority of the SC2 crowd thinks? About the outdated UI and graphics only? Its the game design that is the killer feature. Way better unit interaction, dynamics and gameplay as well as better to watch (sc2 deathballs, Current hot issue in sc2 is removing deathballs and make units dont clump up right? ).
B.Cat, understand that the vast majority of SC2 fans have NEVER tried more than 5 games of Competitive 1 vs 1 in BW. And have never followed one BW tournament at all! They have pretty much 0 knowledge about the game and scene so they make stupid assumptions about the game while people like you and me have at least attempted in 'getting into' their 'scene'.
Personally I don't even want to like SC2. To me SC2 has nothing of what SC BW had. I rather play MOBa games as well. I hope JD and Flash switch to LoL soon.
SC2 is all about hardware promotion. Everyone knows what Blizzard did wrong but no one really cares. People ride the money wave as long as it lasts, then jump ship. Everything that happened was also predicted. I remember very well the interview Testie gave when he first played SC2.'
I don't know what to think about SC2 people. They came to SC2 because SC2 was the new big game. For some reason they decided to stick around. I can tell you that it is now impossible for you to understand what SC BW was before SC2 was released. We were such an elitist group of people and we had so much pride in our game and so much understanding about how unique S Koreans esports scene was.
We had nothing to do with Blizzard or any of their other games. That was nice as well. I am at a point right now that I won't ever pay to play a Blizzard game ever again no matter how good the game is they put out. But it doesn't seem I have to exert a lot of effort. Going to be a happy day the day Blizzard ceases to exist. The dislike for what was my no.1 game designer by far when I was a teen has become absolutely huge. It's a strange thing to recall how I used to recommended Blizzard games to my schoolmates.
On July 08 2012 23:22 SilverWolfe wrote: I am not sure if this is the best place to ask this question, but this is the BW board so I guess it makes sense to ask it here. If there's a better place, please let me know/move the thread.
Please don't be offended by this because I'm only asking based on what I observe in these forums. Essentially from what I understand, BW fans hate SC2.
Like really, really, REALLY hate SC2. I don't really get this, I started playing/watching BW myself but was pretty excited when SC2 came out, and even though the pro games aren't as high level as BroodWar games were and nor were the players as talented, I still had hope that maybe the game would evolve over time and the pro scene would become more exciting to watch as well.
The thing that I'm gonna ask about is that I've noticed a lot of BW fans have decided to start playing/watching Dota2 and LoL over SC2. Now this is something I genuinely cannot understand. Coming from the perspective of someone who has played/watched RTS games, it just seems ludicrous to me to think that Dota2 or LoL offers even half the entertainment of BW/SC2. To me it just seems odd how some people could genuinely prefer these games over SC2, in fact I have a hard time believing it's a genuine enjoyment of MOBAs.
To me there are three possibilities that I see, and I've listed them here in order of likelihood as I see it:
1. The first group of people are BW fans who are so upset that SC2 is not literally BW in 3D that they can't stand the concept of ever switching to SC2 or trying to enjoy playing/watching it. Also the thought of KeSPA players playing SC2 seems like a blasphemy to these people. I think that these people are so disgusted by SC2 as a game, that they've decided to proudly parade how much they think Dota2 and LoL are better games than SC2 just to spite the game and SC2 fans.
2. The second group of people are fans who believe that Korea somehow 'understands' eSports and what a good eSport is better than every other country, and that playing games that Korea doesn't like/enjoy as much is stupid. These people probably saw how Korean fans didn't take to SC2, but loved LoL. So they decided that because of this, LoL must be a legitimately more interesting game than SC2, because of course this is the same country that started professional Broodwar.
3. The third and least likely possibility I see is people who actually, genuinely, in their hearts, believe that Dota2 and LoL is a better eSport than SC2. Now people don't get me wrong MOBA fans, your games are great in their own right. But coming from an RTS background I just don't see how anyone could find it exciting to watch or even play. The game feels slow and boring when I actually play it, watching it I have no idea what I'm supposed to be impressed or entertained by. I try to imagine how hard it would be for people to cast 4v4 BW/SC2 games seriously and how little the results would actually seem to matter given how bizarrely games with that many teammates can turn out. From a spectator standpoint it just seems like too much random crap going on at once, and that seems to be exactly the case with Dota2/LoL. I think if these people come from a BW background, they probably haven't given watching the GSL or something a try.
So what is the deal exactly? Why do so many BW fans like MOBA games so much over SC2?
I'm sorry but these generalizations have got to stop.
- I dont watch/like any MOBA games, i just dont get it how it is fun. i even watched a 14min tutorial in youtube to understand how LoL works, what i saw was even worse than what i expected.
- SC2 is an ok game, i currently watch it, BUT, i will not spend the entire night awake to watch koreans play like i did for BW, i dont know if i will watch it for several years like i did for BW.
Well i just saw the picture you posted and yes im offended, this is the problem with the SC2 community : So you guys have been here for 2 years, and suddenly you are experts on balance, you are here 2 years and you are experts on everything, you suddenly know what tourneys format are shit and what formats are the best ones. you think you know us, you think we are dogs just sitting next to a dead body. well you dont know shit. your community dont know shit.
Thats key difference between us and SC2, we listen to ppl older than us, we know koreans know better than us so we listen to them.we acknowledge the great value their words and opinions contains. unlike you, you guys have 0 respect for older people that know better than you.
On July 09 2012 01:23 SilverWolfe wrote: Oh come on. This forum has plenty of posts where people make fun of SC2 (Unimpressed Flash etc.), you guys should be able to take at least one about BW.
Seems more disrespectful to the dead guy than bw fans.
The thing I like about BW the most was how much it felt like a battle, with a lot of small battles everywhere and maneuvering for strategic angles and positions. With the unit-clumping and Deathball'y nature of SC2 (which in turn led to crippling AoE nerfs), it gets really really boring to watch.
I find Dota/LoL is much much better than SC2 in this aspect. Especially with stuff like LoL's secondary objectives in the game, it makes games feel a lot more interesting. Too bad the actual battles in both SC2 and MOBA games are pretty shitty to watch. I don't think MOBAs can really address this issue but SC2 can. I'd be really happy to see SC2 revamp their unit movement or make unit collision bigger or something... But I'm kind of at the point where I've given up with Blizzard. I don't think it'll ever happen. Now I just visit TL mainly for the Korean Music thread
I forgot where I read it but I think someone used the analogy of sleeping with the prostitute that killed your wife. That's pretty much SC2 for me~ Also if I wanted to play SC2 I'd be sitting infront of my computer alone laddering for 8 hours a day, rather than playing with friends over voice chat in dota2. SC2 just isn't fun in comparison, an unworthy successor, and as long as Blizzard is running the show I'll never like it I think. Especially considering how on top of things Valve is.
On July 08 2012 23:22 SilverWolfe wrote: I am not sure if this is the best place to ask this question, but this is the BW board so I guess it makes sense to ask it here. If there's a better place, please let me know/move the thread.
Please don't be offended by this because I'm only asking based on what I observe in these forums. Essentially from what I understand, BW fans hate SC2.
Like really, really, REALLY hate SC2. I don't really get this, I started playing/watching BW myself but was pretty excited when SC2 came out, and even though the pro games aren't as high level as BroodWar games were and nor were the players as talented, I still had hope that maybe the game would evolve over time and the pro scene would become more exciting to watch as well.
The thing that I'm gonna ask about is that I've noticed a lot of BW fans have decided to start playing/watching Dota2 and LoL over SC2. Now this is something I genuinely cannot understand. Coming from the perspective of someone who has played/watched RTS games, it just seems ludicrous to me to think that Dota2 or LoL offers even half the entertainment of BW/SC2. To me it just seems odd how some people could genuinely prefer these games over SC2, in fact I have a hard time believing it's a genuine enjoyment of MOBAs.
To me there are three possibilities that I see, and I've listed them here in order of likelihood as I see it:
1. The first group of people are BW fans who are so upset that SC2 is not literally BW in 3D that they can't stand the concept of ever switching to SC2 or trying to enjoy playing/watching it. Also the thought of KeSPA players playing SC2 seems like a blasphemy to these people. I think that these people are so disgusted by SC2 as a game, that they've decided to proudly parade how much they think Dota2 and LoL are better games than SC2 just to spite the game and SC2 fans.
2. The second group of people are fans who believe that Korea somehow 'understands' eSports and what a good eSport is better than every other country, and that playing games that Korea doesn't like/enjoy as much is stupid. These people probably saw how Korean fans didn't take to SC2, but loved LoL. So they decided that because of this, LoL must be a legitimately more interesting game than SC2, because of course this is the same country that started professional Broodwar.
3. The third and least likely possibility I see is people who actually, genuinely, in their hearts, believe that Dota2 and LoL is a better eSport than SC2. Now people don't get me wrong MOBA fans, your games are great in their own right. But coming from an RTS background I just don't see how anyone could find it exciting to watch or even play. The game feels slow and boring when I actually play it, watching it I have no idea what I'm supposed to be impressed or entertained by. I try to imagine how hard it would be for people to cast 4v4 BW/SC2 games seriously and how little the results would actually seem to matter given how bizarrely games with that many teammates can turn out. From a spectator standpoint it just seems like too much random crap going on at once, and that seems to be exactly the case with Dota2/LoL. I think if these people come from a BW background, they probably haven't given watching the GSL or something a try.
So what is the deal exactly? Why do so many BW fans like MOBA games so much over SC2?
this whole post is a waste of time, you know this is just your opinion right and there is millions more people who play league of legends over sc2? free to play is a very popular model now days and I'm sure that we are having a "genuine" experience cause we enjoy the fucking game, wtf do you think i don't know what i like? you sound ignorant as shit to think your own views are the ones that would be genuine
On July 08 2012 23:34 vOdToasT wrote: I think it's because while DotA is not as amazing as Brood War, it is in a different genre of games than Brood War. This makes it easier to transition to. StarCraft 2 is in the same genre as Brood War, but much worse.
It's easier to change to something that is different altogether, than something that is just inferior. SC2 is just a shitty RTS, an inferior version of SC1, but DotA is something different. When you're used to playing a good RTS, switching to a mediocre one is harder than switching to a DotA game.
WC3 DotA is what got me into competitive gaming, played it all through high-school on Garena and with friends.I loved watching Garena TV and rooting on my favorite teams/listening to shoutcasts (man I hate synchronizing), loved their skill and teamwork, placed bets on Gosu Gamers and all that jazz. Then one day my game messed up and I couldn't load up custom maps anymore, I was too lazy to reinstall windows so I was mucking about GG ect. Apparently not a lot of people over there liked Team Liquid at the time, 'go back to Team Liquid you elitist prick' ect. So I went over there to see what the fuss was about... I had just gotten 1Mbit internet, first time interacting with the magical world of streaming, also I found out SC2 was coming out in a few years, why not get some practice in. And. I. Just. Fell. In. Love. With. BW It had everything, crazy skill, hype, history, crowds, tournaments. None of my friends played it, no PC cafe had it and I have still yet to meet a person who know what they are doing in it but my god I fell in love. To cut a long story short I would have been playing it to this day if it wasn't for SC2. The Blizzard that made BW is not the same one that is making SC2, I can't really put my finger on it but a bit of everything was a letdown, the scene, the tournaments, it all feels wrong The guy earlier in this thread put it well, 'and then MBC Game shutdown', the fall of Ma Jae-Yoon, it all played its part. DotA is just the logical progression for me, 13 MILLION people downloaded the latest map before the first International! That's 13 million people that want DotA to stay the same, 13M reasons why Valve wants to keep it that way. In Eastern Europe people don't buy games, you don't really have friends to play with if you don't play the games that are pirated the most. I just want to play a game where if I am better I can consistently beat the crap out of all my friends or play together to beat the crap out of non-friends, and if I am not better through hard work one day I can beat them... I mean in DotA1 it used to take 6 months for someone to not be a total feeder noob. Simple as that. BW - Tennis DotA - Basketball 1998 Blizzard > 2011 Valve >>> 2010 Blizzard That's the difference EDIT: There was always something special about knowing you were one of only maybe 10k people outside of Korea playing BW, and you knew they all played it and watched it for all the same reasons as you, 1 out of 10k people who knew just how special it was... I miss those days
Man.. after reading all this i realize how much you consider BW to be a better game then sc2. anyway seems like a kinda useless thread since its only gonna bring hate :/
I also agree with the guy that said something about broodwar having had 14 years to develop to where it is today. I wasnt around to see it but I'm sure(Don't quote me on that:/ ) that broodwar wasnt the greatest game at its early stages either. But anyway. I feel this is all a personal choice, Those broodwar players who liked sc2 probably still plays it whereas those who didn't, they simply decided to try something new, In this case Dota 2/LoL(Or something else, Perhaps even quit gaming) Someone wrote that it is harder to switch into a game you consider inferior then it is to switch to something new. I think thats the best answer to all of this.
BW being not very good at first is quite a baseless assumption. It's not the balance that got people into BW you know. It's the gameplay, which is a fair bit more interesting than that of SC2. Not to say SC2 is bad, just that it couldn't live up to its predecessor's name even if it became balanced.
Alright my bad then. Wasnt really into BW at the time, too young.. Anyway you also brought up another possible reason, Since people considered BW so great(Or still do), it's gonna be close to impossible to live up to broodwar. anyway, I can't see into the future but I hope blizzard realize their mistakes and try to fix them ASAP, BW Or SC2, I dont want starcraft overall to die.
On July 09 2012 00:55 BWalma wrote: Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
Just read the other posts how its easier to embrace a new genre then going to a "crappier" version of a game with updated graphics.
No I dont think thats true. Yes we wanted a game like BW because it was so much better and unique compared to any other RTS ever. I dont think all BW fans wanted a BW in 3D. At least I didnt.
On July 09 2012 02:07 KapsyL wrote: Alright my bad then. Wasnt really into BW at the time, too young.. Anyway you also brought up another possible reason, Since people considered BW so great(Or still do), it's gonna be close to impossible to live up to broodwar. anyway, I can't see into the future but I hope blizzard realize their mistakes and try to fix them ASAP, BW Or SC2, I dont want starcraft overall to die.
I have never, ever seen Blizzard actually own up to a design mistake before. Ever. They take 'it's a feature not a bug' to a whole new level'.
On July 09 2012 02:07 KapsyL wrote: Alright my bad then. Wasnt really into BW at the time, too young.. Anyway you also brought up another possible reason, Since people considered BW so great(Or still do), it's gonna be close to impossible to live up to broodwar. anyway, I can't see into the future but I hope blizzard realize their mistakes and try to fix them ASAP, BW Or SC2, I dont want starcraft overall to die.
I have never, ever seen Blizzard actually own up to a design mistake before. Ever. They take 'it's a feature not a bug' to a whole new level'.
On July 09 2012 00:55 BWalma wrote: Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
Just read the other posts how its easier to embrace a new genre then going to a "crappier" version of a game with updated graphics.
No I dont think thats true. Yes we wanted a game like BW because it was so much better and unique compared to any other RTS ever. I dont think all BW fans wanted a BW in 3D. At least I didnt.
Well if you look at it from Blizzards perspective. A BW clone would have at least not been worse than BW.
On July 09 2012 00:55 BWalma wrote: Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
Just read the other posts how its easier to embrace a new genre then going to a "crappier" version of a game with updated graphics.
No I dont think thats true. Yes we wanted a game like BW because it was so much better and unique compared to any other RTS ever. I dont think all BW fans wanted a BW in 3D. At least I didnt.
I think what most bw fans wanted is that bw remains how it was, because thats what they love. It was just blizzard that pushed SC2 out and wanted to make money.
On July 09 2012 01:54 ahappystar wrote: EDIT: There was always something special about knowing you were one of only maybe 10k people outside of Korea playing BW, and you knew they all played it and watched it for all the same reasons as you, 1 out of 10k people who knew just how special it was... I miss those days
On July 09 2012 01:54 ahappystar wrote: EDIT: There was always something special about knowing you were one of only maybe 10k people outside of Korea playing BW, and you knew they all played it and watched it for all the same reasons as you, 1 out of 10k people who knew just how special it was... I miss those days
On July 09 2012 00:55 BWalma wrote: Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
Just read the other posts how its easier to embrace a new genre then going to a "crappier" version of a game with updated graphics.
No I dont think thats true. Yes we wanted a game like BW because it was so much better and unique compared to any other RTS ever. I dont think all BW fans wanted a BW in 3D. At least I didnt.
I think what most bw fans wanted is that bw remains how it was, because thats what they love. It was just blizzard that pushed SC2 out and wanted to make money.
KeSPA isn't stupid, they realize that in Korea there are a lot of BW fans and people who are hardcore BW fans and won't watch SC2. But they know that as a global eSport, SC2 is the future of RTS (until something different that proves itself to be more interesting than SC2 comes out). SC2 is a global arena even if Koreans are still the most dominant players, Mvp got knocked out of HSCV by Naama (finnish player), Naniwa is in the Ro8 of GSL, there are a lot of foreign tournaments where players like Stephano seem to shine and the Koreans want a piece of that action, even if it's at the cost of BW as a game.
On July 09 2012 00:55 BWalma wrote: Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
Just read the other posts how its easier to embrace a new genre then going to a "crappier" version of a game with updated graphics.
No I dont think thats true. Yes we wanted a game like BW because it was so much better and unique compared to any other RTS ever. I dont think all BW fans wanted a BW in 3D. At least I didnt.
I think what most bw fans wanted is that bw remains how it was, because thats what they love. It was just blizzard that pushed SC2 out and wanted to make money.
KeSPA isn't stupid, they realize that in Korea there are a lot of BW fans and people who are hardcore BW fans and won't watch SC2. But they know that as a global eSport, SC2 is the future of RTS (until something different that proves itself to be more interesting than SC2 comes out). SC2 is a global arena even if Koreans are still the most dominant players, Mvp got knocked out of HSCV by Naama (finnish player), Naniwa is in the Ro8 of GSL, there are a lot of foreign tournaments where players like Stephano seem to shine and the Koreans want a piece of that action, even if it's at the cost of BW as a game.
Well, other than Sc2 theres no RTS for competitive gaming. Other than Blizzard, not many who can actually change on things that going around in this genre
On July 09 2012 00:55 BWalma wrote: Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
Just read the other posts how its easier to embrace a new genre then going to a "crappier" version of a game with updated graphics.
No I dont think thats true. Yes we wanted a game like BW because it was so much better and unique compared to any other RTS ever. I dont think all BW fans wanted a BW in 3D. At least I didnt.
I think what most bw fans wanted is that bw remains how it was, because thats what they love. It was just blizzard that pushed SC2 out and wanted to make money.
KeSPA isn't stupid, they realize that in Korea there are a lot of BW fans and people who are hardcore BW fans and won't watch SC2. But they know that as a global eSport, SC2 is the future of RTS (until something different that proves itself to be more interesting than SC2 comes out). SC2 is a global arena even if Koreans are still the most dominant players, Mvp got knocked out of HSCV by Naama (finnish player), Naniwa is in the Ro8 of GSL, there are a lot of foreign tournaments where players like Stephano seem to shine and the Koreans want a piece of that action, even if it's at the cost of BW as a game.
Two things that might happen
OGN takes over -> GOM dies -> Global Fans complains -> Kespa isolating players due to bad management -> back to square one
GOM remains strong -> kespa getting a very small portion of the pie -> OGN can't get a hold of new sponsors but due to the hisotorical nature of OGN, S.Korean fans won't get into StarCraft 2.
On July 09 2012 00:55 BWalma wrote: Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
DotA 2 isn't a direct port of DotA. Would be better if it was. Played so much back in the day, definitely won't in the future.
Also, your first sentence isn't true either. I, for instance, wanted nothing. BW was and is fine as it is.
On July 09 2012 00:55 BWalma wrote: Its simple. People wanted a direct port of BW in 3D they got SC2 which is not a direct port. Many BW fanatics believe SC2 is "much worse." DOTA to DOTA 2 is a direct port. Nothing has changed but improved UI and ladder system. Its the game that BW fans wanted all along.
Just read the other posts how its easier to embrace a new genre then going to a "crappier" version of a game with updated graphics.
No I dont think thats true. Yes we wanted a game like BW because it was so much better and unique compared to any other RTS ever. I dont think all BW fans wanted a BW in 3D. At least I didnt.
I think what most bw fans wanted is that bw remains how it was, because thats what they love. It was just blizzard that pushed SC2 out and wanted to make money.
well i want good units that made the game fun like vulture(mines) reaver , good mutas. and not trash boring "i 1a over u collo hellions and shit mutas" units
You know, sine WoL came out i've been 100% certain that I will be Day 1 buying each SCII expansion. After Diablo 3 *cough* fiasco/bull shit *cough* I'm not so sure about HotS, back then I was thinking along the lines of 'but there is no alternative'. Now I know that there is. This thread has seriously got me thinking, I was lurking here since mid 2008, I love Team Liquid, have been coming here everyday for years but in the last half-year I cant remember going into a thread in the SC2 section. It's all General and Sport's and Games. i look at the tournament 'on air' bar, see some random SC2 tournament has 15k viewers and go 'meh', but a 500 view Proleague match used to get me hyped as shit. I don't know about you guys but I just get a feeling of melancholy when I think about the state of starcraft today. The only people that wanted a modern BW port were Team Liquid and Korea. I wonder how Kotik reacted when they suggested making a AA or AAA title for about 10k people in the West. Sigh
On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
Dude
1: When SC2 gets better than BW, I will switch and enjoy it. But why the fuck should I do it now? I don't care if it's going to get better than BW in 5 years, right now it isn't.
2: Even if BW had the easy mechanics of SC2, it would still be a better game. It has more interesting races, better design, and is more intellectualy stimulating. Once you get good at BW and you learn the mechanics, they are no longer an issue anyway. And when you get to that level, you realize that BW has more fun and interesting strategy.
Or maybe you don't. Maybe you prefer SC2, and that's fine if you really do like SC2 more. But that's all it is - you like SC2 more. Don't give me all this bullshit about not wanting to move on, being bitter, and so on.
Besides, what's wrong with having mechanical requirements and skill-based things in a game? It is a REAL TIME strategy game. Speed is always going to matter more or less. If you don't like that, that's fine, but it does not make the game worse. A fighting game that has hard combos isn't worse than a fighting game that has easy combos. The game takes both strategic thinking and skill-based execution, and there is nothing wrong with that. And if you remove all mechanics from both SC2 and BW, I will still prefer BW.
It's just a better game for me, that's it. There is no nostalgia, prejudice, or bias. Some people like BW and DotA but not SC2. Some people like SC2 but not BW. That's all there is to it, stop making a big deal out of the people who like BW and DotA but not SC2.
Edit: And when I say mechanics are no longer an issue, I mean that they no longer impede your enjoyment of the game, or limit which strategies you can use. Mechanics and speed become part of the strategic game. It is a resource that you must spend wisely. You can also force your opponent to spend it certain areas, and use strategies that take less apm for you than it takes for him to respond. It adds another strategic layer to the game.
I can't say for the others, but something tells me that BW even in its earlier years was fucking entertaining. Just go back and watch some Boxer games. Even though I started watching PL in 2008, I still enjoy Garimto games now. If you ask me, I think that in general, the overall quality of modern games deteriorated. God damn business. Being a guy, who went crazy about Fallout2,1 I simply can't play modern games, they are just insincere and generally weak in plot. They are easy, affordable and full of cliches. Now the only games I can play is some indie shit, that still has this god's spark in them. And this is so god damn true just about anything in the world: music, art, cinema, literature.
What seems to be misunderstood by a lot of people is that actually, most BW players before SC2 release were super impatient to play SC2, including most of current SC2 haters. I mean, I love(d) BW so much, when SC2 was announced, I put an SC2 wallpaper on my laptop, I was looking for SC2 news all day long for months, I even put my MSN status as "Hell, it's about time !" (yes, people still used MSN back then haha), etc. I have never waited for a game as much as SC2 in my life.
But when it was released, I was utterly disappointed. I didn't enjoy the game at all, playing and watching felt so dull (and still does now), there is an omnipresent feeling that something is missing. But I have to admit that if it wasn't for BW, SC2 would probably be the best RTS ever, so I can't even say that it's a bad game, although the new B.net was/is clearly awful. Then people (sponsors, friends, Blizzard - lol at Blizzard thinking they're gonna be successful on the asian market by painting SC2 marines on planes...) tried to shove it down my throat. Even a colleague at office (who's a bronze noob) was regularly asking me with a mocking tone "do people still play BW rofl ?"
And on TL, it's so hard not to become a hater. One must really resist. The most annoying to me was posters accusing BW lovers to find the game superior just because of nostalgia and could really not understand at all that one could find BW better. I'm sure many of those guy were of good faith, they were not even trolling, they just didn't get it that people could prefer an old 2d game with single building selection and capped unit selection over SC2.
I still play BW almost everyday and I will as long as I can. Since I am also a huge J-RPG fan but haven't played a single game outside of BW for the last seven years, I will probably catchup and played all the good RPGs I missed during those 7 years.
Dota/LoL feels worse than SC2, I don't know why many people think that players who still prefer BW over SC2 would rather switch to a MOBA. I know Kona did and he's someone I respect, but he's not the general case. MOBA is really a different genre.
Right now I am enjoying every second of the last OSL. If I didn't already fly to Korea just to watch the last PL Grand Finals live, I'd fly to watch the last OSL Finals and probably come a week early to watch the Flash vs Fantasy semis. That shit's gonna be epic.
I didn't mean to make such a long post, I thought for a long time writing a long blog about my love for BW for my 5000th post, but I have a feeling it will not end well, so I'll just go back to contribute to BW Liquipedia silently, and watch the Chinese BW scene that Caihead is helping us to explore. (check it out if you haven't yet, and if you can bear commentary in Mandarin)
I would lie if I said I understood how a BW fan anyone can enjoy, as a spectator, a genre of games that is only about teamwork, strategy, decisions and knowledge with an almost non-existent level of skill of any kind.
Almost half of the reason I never truly got into SC2 and am now slowly growing out of it completely is because of its similarities to moba games in that regard - because almost all the games in SC2 are decided by strategy and decision making. I just can't admire how 99.9% players play because there's just not a lot special or (physically) skillful or impressive in how they do it.
Unless we're talking about Smite which I hope becomes the future of the moba genre (if not that, then another game inspired by it).
The only problem I see, and makes me doubt the sincerity of their statement, is when people say they find SC2 to be an inferior rts, therefore not worth enjoying, but then say they enjoy LoL. Now, there is nothing wrong with the first part, not liking SC2 because it is inferior(which it currently is) in it's genre, and nothing wrong with the second part, liking LoL. But surely people see the irony in liking LoL when their reason for disliking SC2 is that it's inferior in it's genre?
Note: I am no way saying that LoL is bad, it's quite good, just inferior to dota. That's not a terrible thing, more a testament to how good dota was, similar to how BW is to SC2.
On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
Dude
1: When SC2 gets better than BW, I will switch and enjoy it. But why the fuck should I do it now? I don't care if it's going to get better than BW in 5 years, right now it isn't.
2: Even if BW had the easy mechanics of SC2, it would still be a better game. It has more interesting races, better design, and is more intellectualy stimulating. Once you get good at BW and you learn the mechanics, they are no longer an issue anyway. And when you get to that level, you realize that BW has more fun and interesting strategy.
Or maybe you don't. Maybe you prefer SC2, and that's fine if you really do like SC2 more. But that's all it is - you like SC2 more. Don't give me all this bullshit about not wanting to move on, being bitter, and so on.
Besides, what's wrong with having mechanical requirements and skill-based things in a game? It is a REAL TIME strategy game. Speed is always going to matter more or less. If you don't like that, that's fine, but it does not make the game worse. A fighting game that has hard combos isn't worse than a fighting game that has easy combos. The game takes both strategic thinking and skill-based execution, and there is nothing wrong with that. And if you remove all mechanics from both SC2 and BW, I will still prefer BW.
It's just a better game for me, that's it. There is no nostalgia, prejudice, or bias. Some people like BW and DotA but not SC2. Some people like SC2 but not BW. That's all there is to it, stop making a big deal out of the people who like BW and DotA but not SC2.
Edit: And when I say mechanics are no longer an issue, I mean that they no longer impede your enjoyment of the game, or limit which strategies you can use. Mechanics and speed become part of the strategic game. It is a resource that you must spend wisely. You can also force your opponent to spend it certain areas, and use strategies that take less apm for you than it takes for him to respond. It adds another strategic layer to the game.
I can't say for the others, but something tells me that BW even in its earlier years was fucking entertaining. Just go back and watch some Boxer games. Even though I started watching PL in 2008, I still enjoy Garimto games now. If you ask me, I think that in general, the overall quality of modern games deteriorated. God damn business. Being a guy, who went crazy about Fallout2,1 I simply can't play modern games, they are just insincere and generally weak in plot. They are easy, affordable and full of cliches. Now the only games I can play is some indie shit, that still has this god's spark in them. And this is so god damn true just about anything in the world: music, art, cinema, literature.
i think, objectively, the game qualities were understandably worse, but the games had more heart. there was always more or less a story arc in every OSL (less so in MSL, and you get the odd winners here and there)
On July 09 2012 00:17 SilverWolfe wrote: I think that for people who think that SC2 is a worse game than BW, as it is now you are objectively correct, but I think that you have to consider that BW games back when BW just came out (or even SCvanilla) were much, much worse than watching something like Flash vs Effort now. This is a time when people were still figuring out how to play the game, and as a result the quality of those old games weren't as good as modern BW games. BW has had 14 years and an expansion to let it's metagame flourish, and flourish it has. The way I see it SC2 might not be as developed a game and people still haven't fully figured out everything about it, but there is a new expansion coming out that will sort of 'reset' the skill levels with the introduction of new units/abilities/maps. The game will change over time, and even watching GSL games now compared to the old open seasons of 2010, there is already a WORLD of difference in the games. To me, each season of GSL just gets better and better. When HotS causes a reset in the skill/metagame, I think that the BW players will suddenly be on an even field compared to the current SC2 pros.
To me BW just seems like such an outdated game that relies on you to do so many things the game should just do itself. Things like how poor the pathfinding is, having to rally workers manually to minerals, the lack of smartcasting and multiple building selection don't actually add anything to the game. Technically, you could individually click and cast with each spellcaster, have only 12 units in each control group, individually click every production building to make units and rally your workers in front of your base and manually move them yourself in SC2. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but why would you? It just makes the game harder to play.
As much as I love BW sometimes I feel like the only reason you find something like a good set of storms or something being amazing is because you know as a BW player how hard it is to actually do that. If you saw it happen in SC2, you know it's easier to do. To me forcing the players to have to spread their attention over this kind of minor things was fine 10 years ago perhaps when game/computer technology was different, but now there is no point for it. This kind of thing just detracts from the focus on strategy and actual unit control in the game. BW players who are so used to doing these minute things will probably find that they can spread their attention more over the actual game when they have fully switched to SC2.
Dude
1: When SC2 gets better than BW, I will switch and enjoy it. But why the fuck should I do it now? I don't care if it's going to get better than BW in 5 years, right now it isn't.
2: Even if BW had the easy mechanics of SC2, it would still be a better game. It has more interesting races, better design, and is more intellectualy stimulating. Once you get good at BW and you learn the mechanics, they are no longer an issue anyway. And when you get to that level, you realize that BW has more fun and interesting strategy.
Or maybe you don't. Maybe you prefer SC2, and that's fine if you really do like SC2 more. But that's all it is - you like SC2 more. Don't give me all this bullshit about not wanting to move on, being bitter, and so on.
Besides, what's wrong with having mechanical requirements and skill-based things in a game? It is a REAL TIME strategy game. Speed is always going to matter more or less. If you don't like that, that's fine, but it does not make the game worse. A fighting game that has hard combos isn't worse than a fighting game that has easy combos. The game takes both strategic thinking and skill-based execution, and there is nothing wrong with that. And if you remove all mechanics from both SC2 and BW, I will still prefer BW.
It's just a better game for me, that's it. There is no nostalgia, prejudice, or bias. Some people like BW and DotA but not SC2. Some people like SC2 but not BW. That's all there is to it, stop making a big deal out of the people who like BW and DotA but not SC2.
Edit: And when I say mechanics are no longer an issue, I mean that they no longer impede your enjoyment of the game, or limit which strategies you can use. Mechanics and speed become part of the strategic game. It is a resource that you must spend wisely. You can also force your opponent to spend it certain areas, and use strategies that take less apm for you than it takes for him to respond. It adds another strategic layer to the game.
I can't say for the others, but something tells me that BW even in its earlier years was fucking entertaining. Just go back and watch some Boxer games. Even though I started watching PL in 2008, I still enjoy Garimto games now. If you ask me, I think that in general, the overall quality of modern games deteriorated. God damn business. Being a guy, who went crazy about Fallout2,1 I simply can't play modern games, they are just insincere and generally weak in plot. They are easy, affordable and full of cliches. Now the only games I can play is some indie shit, that still has this god's spark in them. And this is so god damn true just about anything in the world: music, art, cinema, literature.
i think, objectively, the game qualities were understandably worse, but the games had more heart. there was always more or less a story arc in every OSL (less so in MSL, and you get the odd winners here and there)
StarCraft 1 after 2 years was in my opinion more fun than StarCraft 2 after 2 years.
And SC1 when it was brand new was better than SC2 when it was brand new. They were both imbalanced pieces of shit by modern standards, but at least SC1 had fun units and races.
Edit: But like I said earlier, even if SC2 becomes good in 5 years (and I have no reason to believe that it will), there is no reason to play it now.
I love the excuse of "well sc2 is new, vanilla starcraft wasn't great either", as if Blizzard started 100% from scratch with sc2 as opposed to build up on 12 years of sc1 (and bw).
Dota/LoL is a fun/social (and BM/angry) game which IMO is what BW made up for by its huge professional scene.
IDK about anyone else here but laddering 1v1 on SC ladder just isn't as exciting or fun as playing a game of HoN or whatnot. Let's be honest here, if you think about it, SC2 and BW are honestly quite tedious to play and isn't the right cup of tea for the average, casual gamer.
Oh grant us your wisdom, wise OP. Tell us what we think and why we think it! Give us a narrow range of options, one of which must represent us exactly, so that we may be categorised into your theory and have our strange, incorrect behaviour explained by your conclusions.
On July 09 2012 18:32 peidongyang wrote: Let's be honest here, if you think about it, SC2 and BW are honestly quite tedious to play
I thought people had stopped saying "let's be honest here". MANY PEOPLE DO NOT THINK THIS. Believe it or not. Watch this-
Let's be honest here, nobody really likes baseball. It's slower than football, and the crowds aren't always as big.
You see what I did? I took my own personal opinion, and imposed it upon everyone else in the world, as if it were an undeniable truth.
On July 09 2012 18:17 moopie wrote: I love the excuse of "well sc2 is new, vanilla starcraft wasn't great either", as if Blizzard started 100% from scratch with sc2 as opposed to build up on 12 years of sc1 (and bw).
They have problems with that. Showcased in SC2/Diablo 3.
It does seems to me that people that make these kinds of threads are simply SC2 fans that know almost nothing about BW and come to claim they love BW etc etc and create such threads just to see us BW fans grief and react when our favourite game gets phased out, while taking the opportunity to get some sort of entertainment out of it while accidently revealing their true nature by posting foolishly.
You have to make a difference between playing and watching the game. I think that most (not all, ofc) people will find that Dota/Lol is a better game to play (it requires less skill so you can be more relaxed when you play, you can play it with your friends...) and that SC2 is a better game to watch (it is easier to follow 2 players and not 10, the game and the attacks are cleaner, more things can happen...), but the BW fans will find that BW is an even better game to watch, which place SC2 in a difficult spot...
On July 09 2012 18:33 ImbaTosS wrote: Oh grant us your wisdom, wise OP. Tell us what we think and why we think it! Give us a narrow range of options, one of which must represent us exactly, so that we may be categorised into your theory and have our strange, incorrect behaviour explained by your conclusions.
On July 09 2012 18:32 peidongyang wrote: Let's be honest here, if you think about it, SC2 and BW are honestly quite tedious to play
I thought people had stopped saying "let's be honest here". MANY PEOPLE DO NOT THINK THIS. Believe it or not. Watch this-
Let's be honest here, nobody really likes baseball. It's slower than football, and the crowds aren't always as big.
You see what I did? I took my own personal opinion, and imposed it upon everyone else in the world, as if it were an undeniable truth.
I don't know about you but pretty sure there is a pretty overwhelming view at least according to stream chats and LR threads that the majority of TvZ and PvZ (especially involving players like Dimaga, not to bash or anything) are usually zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I guess I'm part of #1. Was hopefull when they announced SC2 in korea, was hopeful when they realeased the battle reports, and finally stopped being hopeful after a month of beta.
IMO, OP categorizing the BW forums into 3 groups under weak explainations and posting a joke of really poor taste has hurt the discussion : o
You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
On July 09 2012 19:03 Thurken wrote: You have to make a difference between playing and watching the game. I think that most (not all, ofc) people will find that Dota/Lol is a better game to play (it requires less skill so you can be more relaxed when you play, you can play it with your friends...) and that SC2 is a better game to watch (it is easier to follow 2 players and not 10, the game and the attacks are cleaner, more things can happen...), but the BW fans will find that BW is an even better game to watch, which place SC2 in a difficult spot...
This is not true at least for me. I havent played SC2 or Dota 2 but I enjoy watching Dota 2 for a couple of months now and SC2 is boring as hell. Dota 2 is entertaining but I got some experience in Dota 1 playing it for a couple of years . Dota/ LoL is sometimes a bother to play when everyone blames you for losses and if you get into a noob team its frustrating to play.
Its true that you cant really enjoy or really understand it if you have no basic info about the heroes and and their abilities and basic game knowledge and you will not get whats going on but in the end its the same for SC2. You need to have a basic level of understanding to watch SC2 too. I tried watching LoL but I havent played it and I have no real idea what any hero does so I dont really bother because Dota 2 > LoL anyday.
In a way its the same for BW and SC2 . In my eyes BW > SC2 so I cant enjoy a game thats inferior even if its a decent game on its own when the prequel is the better one. I expect a Sequel to be at least on par of its predecessor and even better. This is the deal with Dota 2 and not the deal with SC2.
In the end SC2/BW are RTS and Dota2/LoL are MOBA. You cant really compare them both because its a different genre of games. I've played both Dota and BW in my time and liked em both for different reasons . Now BW is on its end ropes and naturaly i move on on my 2nd favorite game which is Dota/Dota 2 now.
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
OP forgot BW players who play/ed many genres of games. I for example was into FPS -> DotA -> SC:BW. I mean, I can't be the only one. And these are just some of the games I've played a lot.
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
You can't even spell understand come back when you can type properly .
LoL is easily accessible and it's a team game which makes it all the more interesting to not only watch, but to play. Also, I guess these BW fans have spent years following the RTS genre so they may feel the need to switch to observing/playing MOBA games.
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
You can't even spell understand come back when you can type properly .
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
Terrible analogy. A better one would be to compare BW and SC2 with Formula One and Nascar. Am I still stubborn because as an F1 fan I don't enjoy watching Nascar ?
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
You can't even spell understand come back when you can type properly .
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
He use the word understand 3 times and yet it doesn't comes out coherent at all and it takes a genius to come to conclusion that a poster is stubborn just from a few words he posted and yeah . So yeah bring more arguments and while you do that take your time to read it again and again if it sounds stupid don't post it.
On July 09 2012 00:21 Zenbrez wrote: I can't understand for the life of me what about a MOBA game is fun to watch, let alone play. The skillsets needed are different than bw/sc2, but there's a massive lack of depth.
as someone who followed both bw and dota for a long time, i can safely say that dota has much more depth than bw
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
Terrible analogy. A better one would be to compare BW and SC2 with Formula One and Nascar. Am I still stubborn because as an F1 fan I don't enjoy watching Nascar ?
That's a more terrible analogy. That's like comparing SC:BW and Age Of Empires. Same genre, different settings and environment. His is a more approproiate one: Jordan era NBA (BW) and Kobe era NBA (SC2). Same genre (basketball), a few different rules (easier to score today than back then, much like BW to SC2), but still the official new NBA. Hate that it's softer now, but it still is the NBA.
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
You can't even spell understand come back when you can type properly .
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
He use the word understand 3 times and yet it doesn't comes out coherent at all and it takes a genius to come to conclusion that a poster is stubborn just from a few words he posted and yeah . So yeah bring more arguments and while you do that take your time to read it again and again if it sounds stupid don't post it.
On July 09 2012 18:55 BarneyEX wrote: It does seems to me that people that make these kinds of threads are simply SC2 fans that know almost nothing about BW and come to claim they love BW etc etc and create such threads just to see us BW fans grief and react when our favourite game gets phased out, while taking the opportunity to get some sort of entertainment out of it while accidently revealing their true nature by posting foolishly.
I think a lot of this is due to BW Elitists trashing everything related to SC2 at every opportunity. You reap what you sow, really. SC2's metagame is endlessly evolving and barring maybe the current state of TvZ, is getting incredibly fun to keep up with.
No one wants any game to die - I used to love watching BW between WoW arena matches when I used to watch that, but the BW community has not done itself any favours by endlessly slagging anyone and everything playing Starcraft 2 off. As far as I'm concerned, if it's good enough for Flash and Boxer, it should be good enough for you.
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
You can't even spell understand come back when you can type properly .
nice argument
On July 09 2012 20:11 pOnarreT wrote:
On July 09 2012 19:29 Black[CAT] wrote:
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
He use the word understand 3 times and yet it doesn't comes out coherent at all and it takes a genius to come to conclusion that a poster is stubborn just from a few words he posted and yeah . So yeah bring more arguments and while you do that take your time to read it again and again if it sounds stupid don't post it.
nice argument
I am enjoying this please post more "arguments" f5ing this thread like a live report thread
Why do I watch dota 2 now? Because I like it more than SC2. Simple as that. In fact only yesterday I was flipping through the TV and found a channel where Loner vs Infi were playing a TvT. I don't normally watch SC2 games but the ones I have watched have all been invariably horrible due to bad game design. This game was no exception. Pretty much nothing happened for the first 15 minutes, except with both players trying some hellion harass which didn't do anything, and then finished with 2 identical armies attack moving into each other with next to no micro.
Maybe I was just unlucky enough (again) to have watched a shitty sc2 game but based on my experiences, I think SC2 is a mere shadow of BW. Sorry but I think SC2 is just not fucking fun to watch, especially for former BW fans. The units are just horribly designed resulting in stale matchups largely decided by attack-move, instead of the dynamic matchups in BW such as vulture/tank vs zealot/goon, marine/medic vs lurker/ling, zeal/goon/HT vs hydra etc where, depending on the positioning, the timing of stim/siege/etc anything can happen.
Maybe it's true that the skill ceiling in Dota isn't as high as in SC2 (which is debatable really), but literally every dota game I have watched was more fun than SC2. One of these days maybe I will watch MMA vs DRG game 7 but based on what I've seen, I don't particularly have high hopes.
If I sound pissed off, it's because of reading all these ignorant posts by SC2 fans coming in to talk trash about another game that they have never played (sounds familiar? oh wait that's right, they do that to BW too!). We are not people who are stuck in the past and hate sc2 because we're biased and filled with nostalgia; we are people who have made an open-minded decision that we prefer to watch/play dota/lol instead of sc2. many BW players and coaches have made this decision too, what do you have to say to that?
Ironically even though we have to bear with ridiculous phrases like "BW elitists", I feel that it is the SC2 players who have the least tolerance for any game that is not SC2.
edit: i said this in another thread and i'll say it again. Please stop with the "OMG MOBA GAMES TAKE NO SKILL". If you are a SC2 player, you of all people should be the most open-minded towards games that are mechanically easier to play. Watching SC2 players trash Dota for being too easy to play, and then turning around and labeling BW as a button-mashing game for robots is just hilarious.
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
Terrible analogy. A better one would be to compare BW and SC2 with Formula One and Nascar. Am I still stubborn because as an F1 fan I don't enjoy watching Nascar ?
Imo BW does the RTS thing better than any other game, so if i wanna play a straight up RTS might as well not spend time on other games. Or if i want a team based relaxed game, i can shoot up LoL and have a blast. SC2 doesnt fit in that thought process frankly.
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
You can't even spell understand come back when you can type properly .
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
He use the word understand 3 times and yet it doesn't comes out coherent at all and it takes a genius to come to conclusion that a poster is stubborn just from a few words he posted and yeah . So yeah bring more arguments and while you do that take your time to read it again and again if it sounds stupid don't post it.
It's perfectly coherent if you can actually understand english. And the analogy is pretty good if I may add.
Any of you play both BW and SC2 simultaniously? Its hard as hell. I dunno why the BW pros put up with that. I dont see how they could possibly play at their best at either game.
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
You can't even spell understand come back when you can type properly .
nice argument
On July 09 2012 20:11 pOnarreT wrote:
On July 09 2012 19:29 Black[CAT] wrote:
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
He use the word understand 3 times and yet it doesn't comes out coherent at all and it takes a genius to come to conclusion that a poster is stubborn just from a few words he posted and yeah . So yeah bring more arguments and while you do that take your time to read it again and again if it sounds stupid don't post it.
It's perfectly coherent if you can actually understand english. And the analogy is pretty good if I may add.
So you agree that people who don't want to move to sc2 are stubborn just because they don't like it ? . I don't see authors or writers even repeat them selves understand and understand understand for the god knows umpteen times . Pretty good english working at hand here though.
On July 09 2012 21:10 DyEnasTy wrote: Any of you play both BW and SC2 simultaniously? Its hard as hell. I dunno why the BW pros put up with that. I dont see how they could possibly play at their best at either game.
I did, and it is hard. Hotkeys are different, the feel is different and many other things are different. For progamers, the pressure to perform well in SC2 is definitely a huge burden.
Thread has run its course though... The OP is an idiot(makes such a thread with a so called "joke" at the end[with a sad true backstory T_T]), probably laughing now seeing the replies.
I agree with the sentiment that there are people who have decided in their head that sc2 is worse and will not hear any other argument against their most favourite game, no matter how good the argument may be.
P.S. Authors don't argue bullshit on game forums either.
On July 09 2012 21:16 greggy wrote: I agree with the sentiment that there are people who have decided in their head that sc2 is worse and will not hear any other argument against their most favourite game, no matter how good the argument may be.
P.S. Authors don't argue bullshit on game forums either.
To be honest it's not arguments why it's better we need, it's a better game. I believe the wide majority of BW players and fans on Teamliquid have at some point tried picking SC2 up, but simply not enjoyed it. I know this was the case for me, and you may claim that it's just a matter of a few new rules with the new era but then you have obviously never been very immersed in Brood War.
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
You can't even spell understand come back when you can type properly .
nice argument
On July 09 2012 20:11 pOnarreT wrote:
On July 09 2012 19:29 Black[CAT] wrote:
On July 09 2012 19:22 pOnarreT wrote: You should add a number 4. The people who can't handle change and are stubborn.
BW fans are like those basketball fans arguing Jordan era is better than Kobe era. They are correct, but there is nothing that can be done, his time is past due and its time for the new. But if your a true fan of the game, you still love basketball regardless and still enjoy the new. Of course many would say BW is different than SC2, or why am I using basketball as a comparison or whatever, hence the stubborn part.
But of course, I said add this as a number 4 option. It's obvious not all BW fans can't handle change and are stubborn.
This post is full of stupid.... People that loves BW does not have to love SC2.... Terrible analogy. Just because they have the same prefix - Starcraft, that dont mean its the same. Stubborn? I might say something bad here....so bleh...
Only non-stupid people will undestand... so I understand why you can't understand. Stubborness in this post showing, exactly as I said
He use the word understand 3 times and yet it doesn't comes out coherent at all and it takes a genius to come to conclusion that a poster is stubborn just from a few words he posted and yeah . So yeah bring more arguments and while you do that take your time to read it again and again if it sounds stupid don't post it.
It's perfectly coherent if you can actually understand english. And the analogy is pretty good if I may add.
So you agree that people who don't want to move to sc2 are stubborn just because they don't like it ? . I don't see authors or writers even repeat them selves understand and understand understand for the god knows umpteen times . Pretty good english working at hand here though.
If you care to actually read, he said that it should be added as an option. He even said that it's obvious that not all BW fans are stubborn, as such, should only be an option, in his last sentence. Oh, and since you were picking on his "undestand" spelling, "them selves" should be one word.
On July 09 2012 21:16 greggy wrote: I agree with the sentiment that there are people who have decided in their head that sc2 is worse and will not hear any other argument against their most favourite game, no matter how good the argument may be.
P.S. Authors don't argue bullshit on game forums either.
To be honest it's not arguments why it's better we need, it's a better game. I believe the wide majority of BW players and fans on Teamliquid have at some point tried picking SC2 up, but simply not enjoyed it. I know this was the case for me, and you may claim that it's just a matter of a few new rules with the new era but then you have obviously never been very immersed in Brood War.
On July 08 2012 23:34 vOdToasT wrote: I think it's because while DotA is not as amazing as Brood War, it is in a different genre of games than Brood War. This makes it easier to transition to. StarCraft 2 is in the same genre as Brood War, but much worse.
It's easier to change to something that is different altogether, than something that is just inferior. SC2 is just a shitty RTS, an inferior version of SC1, but DotA is something different. When you're used to playing a good RTS, switching to a mediocre one is harder than switching to a DotA game.
nailed it
wow, BW players are acutally the most arrogant guys ever. i once had huge respect for BW players cause the game looked and is fucking hard, then i found out how most of the community thinks and how mediocre the best BW foreigers are in a new game compared to old war3 players. pretty sad.
On July 08 2012 23:34 vOdToasT wrote: I think it's because while DotA is not as amazing as Brood War, it is in a different genre of games than Brood War. This makes it easier to transition to. StarCraft 2 is in the same genre as Brood War, but much worse.
It's easier to change to something that is different altogether, than something that is just inferior. SC2 is just a shitty RTS, an inferior version of SC1, but DotA is something different. When you're used to playing a good RTS, switching to a mediocre one is harder than switching to a DotA game.
nailed it
wow, BW players are acutally the most arrogant guys ever. i once had huge respect for BW players cause the game looked and is fucking hard, then i found out how most of the community thinks and how mediocre the best BW foreigers are in a new game compared to old war3 players. pretty sad.
If you really think that's arrogant, we'll do without your respect.
I played DotA way before SC2 came out, so it's fair to say that my preference towards DotA/LoL (I play both, though not very often) has been biased due to my previous experience with those games. I bought SC2, beat the campaign, tried a couple games... then let it go. As a spectator eSport, BW is still #1.
after I've reread the whole thread I got a headache. I arrived at the conclusion, that all those god damn sequels, dotas, moba, switching, not switching and other things shall be a forever testament of how good BW actually was for me.
My friend falls under the first category. When SC2 came out his biggest complaint was that it was nothing like BW. That "Blizzard could have marketed SC2 under a name not related to Starcraft and no one would notice." This was the reason that he refused to play SC2. As soon as LOL came out he began to play LOL. When I pointed out that SC2 was more closely related to BW than LOL, he replied with a polite, "Fuck you."
What I still don't get is why people argue over matters of preference. Come on, is it really hard to believe I might like something you don't? There's nothing wrong with preferring BW over SC2 or vice versa, and articulating that opinion. Just realize that you are not the center of the world and that your opinions and preferences are not universal. To "not understand" why people have different tastes than you is just arrogant as fuck.
I'm really confused why are people making the comparison of moba's to rts in terms of fan-base in the first place, they play out almost completely differently, the only discernible trait that you can argue carries over is stop animation micro, that's it. Why force the argument? You like them for completely different reasons.
On July 08 2012 23:34 vOdToasT wrote: I think it's because while DotA is not as amazing as Brood War, it is in a different genre of games than Brood War. This makes it easier to transition to. StarCraft 2 is in the same genre as Brood War, but much worse.
It's easier to change to something that is different altogether, than something that is just inferior. SC2 is just a shitty RTS, an inferior version of SC1, but DotA is something different. When you're used to playing a good RTS, switching to a mediocre one is harder than switching to a DotA game.
SC2 is just shitty RTS ?... how you hit that much post on TL .. writing that kind of shitt...
On July 09 2012 22:52 Caihead wrote: I'm really confused why are people making the comparison of moba's to rts in terms of fan-base in the first place, they play out almost completely differently, the only discernible trait that you can argue carries over is stop animation micro, that's it. Why force the argument? You like them for completely different reasons.
Nah, if you like something I don't you must be doing it just to spite me. Me me me me me me me. Why so mean-spirited bro? Just agree with me on everything and we'll have no problems.
Most of the SC2 spite has come from the open seasons of GSL.
Anyone who is watching the GSL Code S now knows it's just as good as BW is. Really the hate is unjustified (recently, at least. Early SC2 was terrible).
On July 09 2012 21:16 greggy wrote: I agree with the sentiment that there are people who have decided in their head that sc2 is worse and will not hear any other argument against their most favourite game, no matter how good the argument may be.
P.S. Authors don't argue bullshit on game forums either.
How can a good argument suddenly make some1 realize their favorite game isn't the best game to them? I don't understand how people think they can just convince BW fans that SC2 is better. We all tried it and we all continued playing what we liked. No point in trying to argue over it. Why would BW fans want to argue over whether its better then SC2 or not?
Moba or not, let everyone go in the direction they want. I just want to watch the players I love playing what they love.
EPT
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