John the Baptist, the character in the Christian Bible who baptized Jesus Christ, is found, according to scientists. They found relics in a small marble sarcophagus two years ago on a Bulgarian island called Sveti Ivan, which translates as Saint John. Bulgarian archaeologists had found a small box made of hardened volcanic ash close to the sarcophagus. A research team from Oxford University dated the right-handed knuckle bone to the first century AD. And scientists from the University of Copenhagen analysed the DNA of the bones, finding they came from a single individual, probably a man, from a family in the modern-day Middle East, where John would have lived.
This is an interesting and important find as science and human technology are unpacking and reinforcing the story of man and of the historical accounts in the Bible. It is yet another proof of the story of Jesus and his teachings. We still have much to learn, and hopefully science and religion will corroborate to bring humanity to discover its history and the greater purpose of life as described in its historical accounts.
The findings are to be presented in a documentary to be aired on The National Geographic channel in Britain on Sunday.
Scientists have found new evidence they say supports the theory that a knuckle bone and other human remains found under a church floor in Bulgaria may be of John the Baptist.
The relics found in a small marble sarcophagus two years ago on a Bulgarian island called Sveti Ivan, which translates as Saint John, also included a human tooth, part of a skull and three animal bones. A research team from Oxford University dated the right-handed knuckle bone to the first century AD, when John is believed to have lived until his beheading ordered by king Herod, the university said in a statement.
And scientists from the University of Copenhagen analysed the DNA of the bones, finding they came from a single individual, probably a man, from a family in the modern-day Middle East, where John would have lived. While these findings do not definitively prove anything, they also don't refute the theory first proffered by the Bulgarian archaeologists who found the remains while excavating under an ancient church on the island.
Many sites around the world claim to hold relics of the saint, including the Grand Mosque in Damascus which says it has his head. The right hand with which the prophet allegedly baptised Jesus in the River Jordan is also claimed to be held by several entities, including a Serbian Orthodox monastery in Montenegro. "The result from the metacarpal hand bone is clearly consistent with someone who lived in the early first century AD," Oxford University professor Tom Higham said of the new study.
"Whether that person is John the Baptist is a question that we cannot yet definitely answer and probably never will." Bulgarian archaeologists had found a small box made of hardened volcanic ash close to the sarcophagus. The box bore inscriptions in ancient Greek that referred to John the Baptist and the date that Christians celebrate his birth, June 24. The findings of another Oxford researcher, using historical documents, suggest that the monastery of Sveti Ivan may have received a portion of John the Baptist's relics in the fifth or early sixth centuries.
The findings are to be presented in a documentary to be aired on The National Geographic channel in Britain on Sunday.
So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
They found a knuckle bone, a tooth, and three animal bones? And "Whether that person is John the Baptist is a question that we cannot yet definitely answer and probably never will."
Sounds legit.
I don't think this means anything profound. Those that have faith will still have faith. Those that don't believe will continue to not believe.
It's nice that the Church is at least attempting to find archaeological evidence of religious icons and Biblical beliefs to validate their history and teachings though.
Lol so they found DNA from an ancient middle eastern man? MUST BE HIM THEN. Because there were no other men in the middle east besides John The Baptist right? I sincerely doubt even a fraction of the people mentioned in the bible ever really lived.
I might be misunderstanding your sentence, but how is this proof that Jesus existed? Furthermore, the article you spoilered explicitly says this is no proof that even John existed
"The result from the metacarpal hand bone is clearly consistent with someone who lived in the early first century AD," Oxford University professor Tom Higham said of the new study.
"Whether that person is John the Baptist is a question that we cannot yet definitely answer and probably never will."
The whole article doesn't have the same confidence as you do, so I don't think your conclusions are correct.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
Your name + Your comment = My lol
Interesting find. I don't know if I believe it or not because back then they could have just claimed that it was him. If it is true then it's an interesting find. It's weird that they found John so far away.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
A man was buried on an island and they just claim it's him?
Unsubstantiated claim to the max. It's more likely just a random rich dude who was traveling when he died, and then they did this. I'm not going to argue against Christianity like I want to, but this is hardly news. If it became officially him, then I'd care but until then it's just a dead guy who was probably from the middle east (which is a fucking huge area).
This is as bad as the 'we found Noah's Ark' claims a few years back
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
You're right, there isn't a way to prove God exists. But this is actually a step to proving that "this cute little fairy tale book" may be a book of history, and not just fiction as you say.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
Shit like this is exactly why I don't talk about religion. There's always an aggressive atheist who not only disagrees, but feels the need to insult anybody who is. Congrats bro, go post this to r/atheism along with some facebook pictures of you insulting somebody for saying they'll be praying for somebody else. It'll be a hoot.
That said... this article is rubbish. They found almost nothing. A part of a finger that they can't prove is in any way John the Baptist's.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
On June 18 2012 13:19 fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi wrote: John the Baptist, the character in the Christian Bible who baptized Jesus Christ, is found, according to scientists. They found relics in a small marble sarcophagus two years ago on a Bulgarian island called Sveti Ivan, which translates as Saint John. Bulgarian archaeologists had found a small box made of hardened volcanic ash close to the sarcophagus. A research team from Oxford University dated the right-handed knuckle bone to the first century AD. And scientists from the University of Copenhagen analysed the DNA of the bones, finding they came from a single individual, probably a man, from a family in the modern-day Middle East, where John would have lived.
This is an interesting and important find as science and human technology are unpacking and reinforcing the story of man and of the historical accounts in the Bible. It is yet another proof of the story of Jesus and his teachings. We still have much to learn, and hopefully science and religion will corroborate to bring humanity to discover its history and the greater purpose of life as described in its historical accounts.
The findings are to be presented in a documentary to be aired on The National Geographic channel in Britain on Sunday.
Scientists have found new evidence they say supports the theory that a knuckle bone and other human remains found under a church floor in Bulgaria may be of John the Baptist.
The relics found in a small marble sarcophagus two years ago on a Bulgarian island called Sveti Ivan, which translates as Saint John, also included a human tooth, part of a skull and three animal bones. A research team from Oxford University dated the right-handed knuckle bone to the first century AD, when John is believed to have lived until his beheading ordered by king Herod, the university said in a statement.
And scientists from the University of Copenhagen analysed the DNA of the bones, finding they came from a single individual, probably a man, from a family in the modern-day Middle East, where John would have lived. While these findings do not definitively prove anything, they also don't refute the theory first proffered by the Bulgarian archaeologists who found the remains while excavating under an ancient church on the island.
Many sites around the world claim to hold relics of the saint, including the Grand Mosque in Damascus which says it has his head. The right hand with which the prophet allegedly baptised Jesus in the River Jordan is also claimed to be held by several entities, including a Serbian Orthodox monastery in Montenegro. "The result from the metacarpal hand bone is clearly consistent with someone who lived in the early first century AD," Oxford University professor Tom Higham said of the new study.
"Whether that person is John the Baptist is a question that we cannot yet definitely answer and probably never will." Bulgarian archaeologists had found a small box made of hardened volcanic ash close to the sarcophagus. The box bore inscriptions in ancient Greek that referred to John the Baptist and the date that Christians celebrate his birth, June 24. The findings of another Oxford researcher, using historical documents, suggest that the monastery of Sveti Ivan may have received a portion of John the Baptist's relics in the fifth or early sixth centuries.
The findings are to be presented in a documentary to be aired on The National Geographic channel in Britain on Sunday.
I've seen the head of John the Bapist twice. Pardon me for being skeptical of another claim on his remains.
They only found a hand. They need a head that clearly shows signs of disembowelment before they can even imply it was John the Baptist, and well good luck with that.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
OP is a little overeager, but you're an asshole.
What is "asshole" about pointing a logical and scientific truth about the non-existence of god based on empirical evidence? Like I said, that little bible book might be the most accurate and comprehensive historical encyclopedia in the entire universe, but there is NO WAY to prove god's existence. I really pray to god that he appears before me in a crowd of a million people, and right then and there I will be the first one to kiss his feet and declare myself the first pope of his churce in that new era of faith. Until then, no thanks.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
OP is a little overeager, but you're an asshole.
What is "asshole" about pointing a logical and scientific truth about the non-existence of god based on empirical evidence? Like I said, that little bible book might be the most accurate and comprehensive historical encyclopedia in the entire universe, but there is NO WAY to prove god's existence. I really pray to god that he appears before me in a crowd of a million people, and right then and there I will be the first one to kiss his feet and declare myself the first pope of his churce in that new era of faith. Until then, no thanks.
You are right, of course. Religious claims are factual claims like any other, and should be responded to as such.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
OP is a little overeager, but you're an asshole.
What is "asshole" about pointing a logical and scientific truth about the non-existence of god based on empirical evidence? Like I said, that little bible book might be the most accurate and comprehensive historical encyclopedia in the entire universe, but there is NO WAY to prove god's existence. I really pray to god that he appears before me in a crowd of a million people, and right then and there I will be the first one to kiss his feet and declare myself the first pope of his churce in that new era of faith. Until then, no thanks.
We're not talking about whether or not God exists though, so relax.
Plenty of us are atheists, but there's no reason to jump down the OP's throat when he's not talking about the remains of a dead guy validating the entire religion and his personal deity. Complete non sequitur, as you yourself pointed out.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
Shit like this is exactly why I don't talk about religion. There's always an aggressive atheist who not only disagrees, but feels the need to insult anybody who is. Congrats bro, go post this to r/atheism along with some facebook pictures of you insulting somebody for saying they'll be praying for somebody else. It'll be a hoot.
That said... this article is rubbish. They found almost nothing. A part of a finger that they can't prove is in any way John the Baptist's.
Yeah, exactly. I think OP is getting a little too eager for his personal truth to be proven.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
OP is a little overeager, but you're an asshole.
What is "asshole" about pointing a logical and scientific truth about the non-existence of god based on empirical evidence? Like I said, that little bible book might be the most accurate and comprehensive historical encyclopedia in the entire universe, but there is NO WAY to prove god's existence. I really pray to god that he appears before me in a crowd of a million people, and right then and there I will be the first one to kiss his feet and declare myself the first pope of his churce in that new era of faith. Until then, no thanks.
It's actually pretty normal to call people who go around "pointing out logical and scientific truth" an asshole. Particularly with all the hate baiting ^^
On June 18 2012 13:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP's name is "fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi"
Backwards is: I am the way, the truth, and the life... something religious, I assume?
I think you sent him back to his home in the 5th dimension where he will be for a minimum of 90 days.
What is wrong about being a Catholic? I have never used it to provoke anyone nor spread dogma. And I have never insulted anyone who has a different faith from me. You are being very rude.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
OP is a little overeager, but you're an asshole.
What is "asshole" about pointing a logical and scientific truth about the non-existence of god based on empirical evidence? Like I said, that little bible book might be the most accurate and comprehensive historical encyclopedia in the entire universe, but there is NO WAY to prove god's existence. I really pray to god that he appears before me in a crowd of a million people, and right then and there I will be the first one to kiss his feet and declare myself the first pope of his churce in that new era of faith. Until then, no thanks.
Well to be honest, you just cited a way to prove God's existence by him coming up to you and saying 'Bitch I'm god'. Don't try and use logic if you yourself don't understand the logical assertions of your statements
On June 18 2012 13:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP's name is "fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi"
Backwards is: I am the way, the truth, and the life... something religious, I assume?
I think you sent him back to his home in the 5th dimension where he will be for a minimum of 90 days.
Love the reference :D
I have heard many stories of these kinds of things in the past though... so this doesn't seem to be any more likely.
The Maury Show will surely just do another DNA test, and then we'll hear the usual " As for the question of whether you are the holy priest, Mr. Skeleton, you are not the Father!"
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
I'm praying for you.
As a fellow Christian, I find this a little condescending and disingenuous. Also as a Christian, I must say the John the Baptist ID effort seems rather pointless and meaningless.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
OP is a little overeager, but you're an asshole.
What is "asshole" about pointing a logical and scientific truth about the non-existence of god based on empirical evidence? Like I said, that little bible book might be the most accurate and comprehensive historical encyclopedia in the entire universe, but there is NO WAY to prove god's existence. I really pray to god that he appears before me in a crowd of a million people, and right then and there I will be the first one to kiss his feet and declare myself the first pope of his churce in that new era of faith. Until then, no thanks.
I've got no problem with atheists, but the logic line you're using here is weak as shit. There is "NO WAY to prove god's existence".... then you immediately state a way that you would believe in God.
On June 18 2012 13:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP's name is "fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi"
Backwards is: I am the way, the truth, and the life... something religious, I assume?
I think you sent him back to his home in the 5th dimension where he will be for a minimum of 90 days.
What is wrong about being a Catholic? I have never used it to provoke anyone nor spread dogma. And I have never insulted anyone who has a different faith from me. You are being very rude.
He's not being rude; you just don't get the reference.
There was a Superman villain who was defeated only once he said his name backwards (and was transported back to another dimension), or something like that. That's what he was referring to when I mentioned your name backwards.
On June 18 2012 13:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP's name is "fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi"
Backwards is: I am the way, the truth, and the life... something religious, I assume?
I think you sent him back to his home in the 5th dimension where he will be for a minimum of 90 days.
What is wrong about being a Catholic? I have never used it to provoke anyone nor spread dogma. And I have never insulted anyone who has a different faith from me. You are being very rude.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
OP is a little overeager, but you're an asshole.
What is "asshole" about pointing a logical and scientific truth about the non-existence of god based on empirical evidence? Like I said, that little bible book might be the most accurate and comprehensive historical encyclopedia in the entire universe, but there is NO WAY to prove god's existence. I really pray to god that he appears before me in a crowd of a million people, and right then and there I will be the first one to kiss his feet and declare myself the first pope of his churce in that new era of faith. Until then, no thanks.
I didn't say the OP was right, or that you can prove the existence of the Christian god. Nobody with half a brain will argue that you can objectively prove god's existence. Even the pope won't argue that.
What I said was that you're an asshole.
This may blow your mind, so take a seat before you read this: you can disagree with people without being a contemptible douche bag.
On June 18 2012 13:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: OP's name is "fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi"
Backwards is: I am the way, the truth, and the life... something religious, I assume?
I think you sent him back to his home in the 5th dimension where he will be for a minimum of 90 days.
What is wrong about being a Catholic? I have never used it to provoke anyone nor spread dogma. And I have never insulted anyone who has a different faith from me. You are being very rude.
Evangelicalism is what is wrong with Catholicism. But that isn't an argument for this thread.
I think the op is a little too optimistic and ready to jump to the conclusion that this is John the Baptist. Would be nice if it were able to be proven, but it never will.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
I'm praying for you.
As a fellow Christian, I find this a little condescending and disingenuous. Also as a Christian, I must say the John the Baptist ID effort seems rather pointless and meaningless.
As a Christian, I completely agree with both of your statements.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
OP is a little overeager, but you're an asshole.
What is "asshole" about pointing a logical and scientific truth about the non-existence of god based on empirical evidence? Like I said, that little bible book might be the most accurate and comprehensive historical encyclopedia in the entire universe, but there is NO WAY to prove god's existence. I really pray to god that he appears before me in a crowd of a million people, and right then and there I will be the first one to kiss his feet and declare myself the first pope of his churce in that new era of faith. Until then, no thanks.
Well to be honest, you just cited a way to prove God's existence by him coming up to you and saying 'Bitch I'm god'. Don't try and use logic if you yourself don't understand the logical assertions of your statements
I know English is not your first language in Korea, but dude please read and understand, or ask someone else who KNOWS English well before you comment. That was exactly what I was arguing. I will only believe in god once he appears before me and millions of others. Is it not a logical extension of my earlier claim that there is no way to empirically prove the existence of god? You're a funny dbag who doesn't even understand plain English or logic. LOL.
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
OP is a little overeager, but you're an asshole.
What is "asshole" about pointing a logical and scientific truth about the non-existence of god based on empirical evidence? Like I said, that little bible book might be the most accurate and comprehensive historical encyclopedia in the entire universe, but there is NO WAY to prove god's existence. I really pray to god that he appears before me in a crowd of a million people, and right then and there I will be the first one to kiss his feet and declare myself the first pope of his churce in that new era of faith. Until then, no thanks.
Cant prove that he exist!
Except that he can and if he did I'd believe in him!
Your logic is so flawlessly beautiful, you should write books on atheism, you'd make hitchens writing look like a preschoolers. XD
On June 18 2012 13:24 Atheist wrote: So what? They can discover every bone of everyone in that cute little fairy tale book you christians call the bible, but it changes nothing about the fact that there is no way to prove your god exists.
OP is a little overeager, but you're an asshole.
What is "asshole" about pointing a logical and scientific truth about the non-existence of god based on empirical evidence? Like I said, that little bible book might be the most accurate and comprehensive historical encyclopedia in the entire universe, but there is NO WAY to prove god's existence. I really pray to god that he appears before me in a crowd of a million people, and right then and there I will be the first one to kiss his feet and declare myself the first pope of his churce in that new era of faith. Until then, no thanks.
You pointed out no facts or anything to do with scince. You only bashed a beliver ad a religion.
Aw geez this is already bad. I could see this thread being remade that was a little more measured on what has actually been found. (To my mind there lies the inherent of problem that the early Christians were running for their lives for the first 300 years that I find it doubtful they had time to pack around an old skeleton.)
But I really don't see this thread going anywhere as it stands. Also, in the future- zealous Athiests might want to keep their arguments to the topic at hand rather than immediately derail it.
EPT
