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eXeel
Denmark62 Posts
But it takes 4 minutes to get spire (if I don't have it), greater spire, and then nest som BLs. Where as ultras are out after 2:05 or so. Are there any specific matchup, where one is better? Or does it depend on if he has air superiority or a lot of AA (blink stalkers e.g.)? How do I make that decision in game? | ||
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
Naturally, if someone does something really weird like mass blink stalker, don't go broodlords, and if someone go very marauder heavy don't go ultra. ZvZ is very different from game to game I think, since there is so much different stuff that works. Ultras are usually a good end game unit to go for assuming you have the upgrades though, as ultra ling infestor is VERY good against pretty much every composition he can throw at you, bar Broodlords. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
The way I look at it is that Ultras are amazing if your ahead on ups; so I base my choice on whether I think I can have 3-3 whilst their still on 2-2. Edit: Didn't see you were looking for advice on all MU's, the above is for ZvT; in ZvP, 99/100 you should go broods, I rarely see ultras in Pro ZvP's. ZvZ I think going broods is suicide because you can be out manoeuvred so easily. There are scenarios however where both T3 tech paths are ok. The new ling festor style ZvZ with a fast hive naturally leads into Ultras. Typically Ultras are used in ZvZ as their not fungalable | ||
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SgtCoDFish
United Kingdom1520 Posts
One handy tip is that a spire takes as long as a Hive to build (100 seconds). So, whenever you start upgrading Hive, throw down your spire at the same time and it'll finish as Hive does. Then you can upgrade greater spire straight away. In ZvT, the current trend is to go double upgraded ling (with banes if needed) into infestor into super quick 3/3 with chitinous plating ultras. This is for a couple of reasons: you can realistically expect to be 3/3 quickly and hit a strong timing if you upgrade hive at an appropriate time, making the ling/ultra/infestor timing (with adrenal glands) quite strong; and terrans tend to delay tanks in this metagame in favour of upgrades and the potential to do drop pressure with a lot of MMM. Which of the two you should get depends mainly on what you scout. If he's going for a lot of tanks earlier, he's going to obviously do well against ground but struggle against air (same applies for mech) which leads to broods. If he's going for bio, he'll have reactor starport production and will be ready with vikings upon scouting spire going down, so ultras might be the better choice for the 3/3 timing to force more marauders/tanks, and then switching to broods even later because obviously marauders/tanks don't shoot up. And as I mentioned, if he's going mech you want broods no questions asked (with roach/infestor/corruptor support). And I know it's said every time a lower league player asks a question, but honestly it won't matter too much which you choose to use in gold as long as you macro well. You can win with a wide variety of things; pick a build you enjoy using and do it well and you'll be masters in no time.  edit: ZvZ: honestly at the moment it's all about roach/hydra/infestor in the mid and late game so you're better to focus on that. There are some styles coming up with ultra/infestor (with roach or ling) or brood/hydra/infestor/corruptor but certainly in gold, going that late should be rare. Focus on hydra/roach/infestor with good upgrades (IMO) | ||
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Destiny
United States280 Posts
ZvT - I always prefer Broodlords, personally, to Ultralisks. Ultralisks are good for a very small window where you have 3/5 (ultralisk chitonous plating) and the Terran is still on 2/2, but if the Terran is on 3/3 and you're still making Ultralisks, I feel like there's a huge risk of just instantly losing that army. Ultralisks can be some of the worst cost-effective trading in the game if they get caught in a bad spot by marine/maurader. ZvP - LOL - safe yourself frustrating and trouble and only make Broodlords. To utilize Ultralisks well takes a ton of effort, and they are hard countered by - 4+ colossus, zealots, archons, immortals, and void rays, and soft countered by blinking stalkers. I would leave Ultralisks alone in this matchup unless you really really know what you're doing. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
Against Terran, if he goes pure mech it's pretty much the same as a deathball. Get broodlords, you should take advantage of the fact that he can't really hurt you and "rush" to hive tech and broods. Against other composition with infantry (pure bio or bio mech) ultra/infestor/ling tends to be better IMO. In ZvZ I would forget about broodlords they're just too slow. Roach/infestor/hydra is always my preffered choice but ultras are very popular these days so they're probably good. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
Numbers are in seconds. Broodlord 000 Spire Starts (unless you already have one) 000 Hive Starts 100 Spire Done 100 Hive Done 100 Greater Spire Starts 160 Corruptors Start (earlier if you consider travel time from hatcheries to rally point) 200 Greater Spire Done 200 Corruptors Pop (earlier if you consider travel time from hatcheries to rally point) 200 Corruptors Morph into Broodlords 234 Broodlords Done 234 seconds = 3min54sec = almost 4 min? Ultralisk 000 Hive Starts *Yes, decision should be made here. 100 Hive Done 100 Ultralisk Cavern Starts **and not here. 165 Ultralisk Cavern Drone 165 Ultralisks Starts 165 Chitinous Plating Starts 220 Ultralisks Pop 275 Chitinous Plating Drone 220sec = 3min40sec = almost 4min? 275sec = 4min35sec The point I would like to make is that Broodlord and Ultralisk take nearly the same amount of time to tech = 4min for both. OP assumed that Hive is already available, then teching to either, in which case Ultralisk takes significantly less time to obtain. However, there are not many cases where you should get hive without making up your mind which unit to get. Hive gives only 3/3 upgrades and adrenal glands upgrade aside from these 2 units. Therefore, ideally you need to decide which unit to get when you start hive. Assuming hive is available before making up your mind is just not fair for Broodlord, which on paper appears to take much longer time when it should not be the case. Furthermore, if you consider chitinous plating upgrade as essential for Ultralisk, then it actually takes longer to get those armor upgraded Ultralisks than Broodlords. Having said that, 1 disadvantage Broodlord has is that you need to spend extra 200 gas for spire when you start hive while no extra gas is needed at that point for Ultralisk route. Having to spend 200 gas 1min40sec earlier probably makes Broodlord looks more expensive than it truly is. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
ultra is 55 + 65 = 120 broodlord is 34 + 100 = 134 3 broodlords are useless. 3 ultras in a ling/infestor army is fucking amazing. The game is way more complicated than 'what should I make'. Generally, if you are going ling/muta or ling/infestor, get ultras first, then broodlords if the ultras dont win the game (like opponent masses spines, you just use ultras to deny new bases and kill expos). If you go roach based play, you need to go broodlords. You cannot afford quick hive if you make roaches, but you can if you go only infestors or only mutas and then lings. That's why people make ultras - if they dont make roaches and hydras (by the way, you HAVE to go roach/hydra/infestor, can't go straight roach/infestor, unless in low level play... and you could go straight infestor before hydra but only if opponent goes mutas or other weird thing), so they went quick hive and need ultras since eventually you want ultra/ling/infestor. | ||
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EnE
417 Posts
On June 17 2012 23:36 Belial88 wrote: after hive is done... ultra is 55 + 65 = 120 broodlord is 34 + 100 = 134 3 broodlords are useless. 3 ultras in a ling/infestor army is fucking amazing. The game is way more complicated than 'what should I make'. Generally, if you are going ling/muta or ling/infestor, get ultras first, then broodlords if the ultras dont win the game (like opponent masses spines, you just use ultras to deny new bases and kill expos). If you go roach based play, you need to go broodlords. You cannot afford quick hive if you make roaches, but you can if you go only infestors or only mutas and then lings. That's why people make ultras - if they dont make roaches and hydras (by the way, you HAVE to go roach/hydra/infestor, can't go straight roach/infestor, unless in low level play... and you could go straight infestor before hydra but only if opponent goes mutas or other weird thing), so they went quick hive and need ultras since eventually you want ultra/ling/infestor. Three broodlords capable of unsieging tanks, tanking archons, killing an infinite amount of ground-to-ground or deal insane dps behind a shield into units like stalkers, etc. and on top of all that FORCE A REACTION TO BROODS. Far from useless. It's very situational. 3 ultras could also run into an engage and immediately die. | ||
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ETisME
12623 Posts
This is in ZvT, doesn't apply to ZvP. ZvP ultras are pretty terrible unless he is super sentries heavy. broodlords are just way better at this matchup, you should have enough spines and infestors buying time for broodlords to morph. The reason is that broodlords requires a much longer tech switch before the toss can deal with the deathball in comparison to terran. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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