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Keep this civil, guys |
On May 04 2012 17:17 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:16 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
I cannot believe the overreactions happening here...people are getting so wound up over, ultimately, words. Words. Actually, word singular. Something that slipped out in a moment of rage, and was not backed by any harmful action whatsoever.
See, that's the thing. Words only hurt people who allow themselves to be hurt by them. Remember when "nerd" was a pejorative in 4th grade? We didn't let it bother us, and we didn't get hurt by it. Words are only different if we let them be. Calling someone a bitch could be considered just as sexist as "gook" is racist...but it's not, because we haven't built it up into a huge deal, and as a result it's not a weapon in the arsenal of those who truly are sexist. By reacting so strongly to it, we are in fact reinforcing the strength of whatever racist term du jour is up for debate. If everyone just ignores it, it loses both its offensiveness and shock power.
To those who e-mailed sponsors: that was foolish. E-mailing sponsors doesn't result in damage to Destiny. It damages the entire scene eventually. A company is far more likely to simply stay away from SC2 altogether than they are to get involved in the debates over which players are "acceptable" to some percentage of the community. Hardly the case. Destiny was given many chances to apologize and we all saw what happened there. To a lot of people (including myself), the follow-up was 10x worse than what originally happened. And sure, words are only hurtful if we let them be. Why don't you go use some derogatory language such as the n-word to an african american and explain that to him?
The apology or non-apology isn't the point. Destiny was right about one thing: do people ever actually believe those cookie-cutter apologies anyway?
To your second point, who is in the wrong if I do that and get beaten for it?
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On May 04 2012 17:21 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:18 SimDawg wrote:On May 04 2012 17:16 Falling wrote:On May 04 2012 17:11 SimDawg wrote:On May 04 2012 16:57 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 16:55 SimDawg wrote:On May 04 2012 16:51 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 16:50 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 16:44 DystopiaX wrote:On May 04 2012 16:41 Dodgin wrote:
I'm starting to see a pattern here.
For better or for worse things are changing around sc2 and how the teams/community functions compared to a year ago or even less than that.
Oh well I'll always have the GSL/OSL/PL even if the foreign sc2 scene nukes itself into oblivion. I fail to see how getting the community to act more professionally will "nuke" it. the community is driven by its character, and trying to make it "professional" in this way will strip the life out of it. this is a videogame. we are videogamers. we should expect people to act like a videogamer, not some pompous golfer. What does that mean, exactly, to "act like a videogamer?" Is using the word "gook" "acting like a videogamer?" How can you deny there's a culture around gaming that includes offensive words, raging, and general internet based angst? And there's an argument for preserving that, at least IMO. The better point is...we are gamers, Destiny is a professional, and there needs to be a line there. Can you make an argument for preserving a culture that includes using words like "nigger" and "gook?" I'm interested to hear it. I've read a lot about this recently, so be aware my opinions are tinged with recent articles floating around in my head. The culture around games is based on exclusivity. In the same way SC:BW fans reveled in their indie community that "understood", gamers as a larger group are proud to be gamers. It's nice to be one of the ones that "gets it." And I think this has grown up from us, in large part, having to defend ourselves from the outside. However instead of having gaming be a thing that is looked down upon, we've begun to wear it like a badge of honor. Language is one of those things that keeps gaming exclusive. People who know Destiny, Orb, or Katu all know they're not racist. They use that language as a gamer would. It keeps people who don't "get it" out of our games. And I love the fact that it does. People who understand us as gamers can take those insults, just like all of us can over a ladder game or over Mumble or TS3, and not be effected by them. As SC2 becomes more mainstream, the professionals, and the people that present themselves to the world need to clean up their act, and present themselves as true businessmen. The rest of us can still have our exclusive culture of gaming that takes place as the people that play games, and revel in the exclusivity. The people that watch games, they can have their professionalism. Frankly there's no other way for this to shake out, it will just take a certain amount of time for people to realize it. I think you got it backwards. BW fans reveled in the fact that BW was so mainstream in Korea. That it was on two tv networks, that it has coaches, announcers, legions of fangirls and fanboys, that it was THE game to play in the PC Bangs like LoL is now. Exclusivity nothing. We reveled in the fact that Boxer was so charismatic and we love the star power of albiet of the current pro's. I was not a BW fan, so forgive me, but my opinions are only what I've read. But I am certain people have said they enjoyed the fact that the TL community was so small and exclusive. Some people feeling this way is not a game-related phenomenon--it happens probably just about everywhere. I'm sure you know the stereotype of that person who always says, "I listed to <popular band> before they were cool, you aren't a real fan if you don't own <shitty old album of theirs>." Other than that I think you are on to something, though.
I agree this phenomenon is not only related to games and gamers.
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United States8476 Posts
On May 04 2012 17:16 Myrkskog wrote:
Not the wording of the apology itself. The fact that it was written in the first place.
I would also have written an apology no matter the community.
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On May 04 2012 17:16 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:12 huameng wrote:On May 04 2012 17:06 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 16:53 DystopiaX wrote:On May 04 2012 16:50 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 16:44 DystopiaX wrote:On May 04 2012 16:41 Dodgin wrote:
I'm starting to see a pattern here.
For better or for worse things are changing around sc2 and how the teams/community functions compared to a year ago or even less than that.
Oh well I'll always have the GSL/OSL/PL even if the foreign sc2 scene nukes itself into oblivion. I fail to see how getting the community to act more professionally will "nuke" it. the community is driven by its character, and trying to make it "professional" in this way will strip the life out of it. this is a videogame. we are videogamers. we should expect people to act like a videogamer, not some pompous golfer. I'm a gamer. All my friends are gamers. I don't know any one of them that uses words like "gook", "nigger", or "Chink". And there's a difference between someone gaming on their own and a professional- and to those who claim he's just a streamer in private, that's what he's best known for, and he's representing a professional gaming team. If he isn't one, then he shouldn't be on one. I'm sure tons of people playing Basketball for fun use homophobic slurs, but if an NBA player did he would get his ass fined and maybe a suspension. If you're a public figure, you're held to a different standard .Simple as that. well i'm glad you think you and your friends are the scope of the situation. unfortunately for you there's a bigger world outside that DOES include nigger gook and chink in it. there are people out there that realize words are just words. honestly, i thought the whole sticks and stones thing was something people learned when they were like 5. this isn't basketball. it never will be. people trying to turn starcraft into something that will be shown on ESPN and watched by millions of people have their heads in the clouds. people need to realize that this is just a videogame, and that "pros" are just people really good at a videogame. people engage in this stuff to relax and unwind... the last thing we need is a tight-collar corporate mentality plaguing this community. Well I know when I'm trying to relax and unwind, I really appreciate it when people start throwing racial slurs at me! This community is just so welcoming, how could I not feel at ease? If we want this to be a place where everyone can relax, the last thing we need is people calling each other gooks on the ladder. Once we get rid of that, then let's make sure we don't all start wearing suits. oh, that being said... go talk to some sponsors and let them know how much you love them. If you are emailing sponsors telling them to stop supporting destiny/others, you really better be making sure they know how appreciated they are, both by buying their shit and letting them know that all of their marketing dollars are making an impact on you videogame culture is known for rowdy behavior. if your idea of relaxation isn't getting to freely rage every once in a while, then don't relax with videogames. simple.
Alternatively, let's turn videogame culture into something more positive. Also simple. Personally I like that option a lot better. Why don't you like this idea?
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On May 04 2012 17:20 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:16 Myrkskog wrote:
Not the wording of the apology itself. The fact that it was written in the first place. wut. Am I reading this wrong? Apologies are a sign of fakeness? The willingness to admit fault is as honest as you can get.
I was responding to NRGmonk
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I see that you've removed all the incriminating links of the TL mods breaking their own rules.
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Canada11369 Posts
On May 04 2012 17:18 SimDawg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:16 Falling wrote:On May 04 2012 17:11 SimDawg wrote:On May 04 2012 16:57 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 16:55 SimDawg wrote:On May 04 2012 16:51 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 16:50 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 16:44 DystopiaX wrote:On May 04 2012 16:41 Dodgin wrote:
I'm starting to see a pattern here.
For better or for worse things are changing around sc2 and how the teams/community functions compared to a year ago or even less than that.
Oh well I'll always have the GSL/OSL/PL even if the foreign sc2 scene nukes itself into oblivion. I fail to see how getting the community to act more professionally will "nuke" it. the community is driven by its character, and trying to make it "professional" in this way will strip the life out of it. this is a videogame. we are videogamers. we should expect people to act like a videogamer, not some pompous golfer. What does that mean, exactly, to "act like a videogamer?" Is using the word "gook" "acting like a videogamer?" How can you deny there's a culture around gaming that includes offensive words, raging, and general internet based angst? And there's an argument for preserving that, at least IMO. The better point is...we are gamers, Destiny is a professional, and there needs to be a line there. Can you make an argument for preserving a culture that includes using words like "nigger" and "gook?" I'm interested to hear it. I've read a lot about this recently, so be aware my opinions are tinged with recent articles floating around in my head. The culture around games is based on exclusivity. In the same way SC:BW fans reveled in their indie community that "understood", gamers as a larger group are proud to be gamers. It's nice to be one of the ones that "gets it." And I think this has grown up from us, in large part, having to defend ourselves from the outside. However instead of having gaming be a thing that is looked down upon, we've begun to wear it like a badge of honor. Language is one of those things that keeps gaming exclusive. People who know Destiny, Orb, or Katu all know they're not racist. They use that language as a gamer would. It keeps people who don't "get it" out of our games. And I love the fact that it does. People who understand us as gamers can take those insults, just like all of us can over a ladder game or over Mumble or TS3, and not be effected by them. As SC2 becomes more mainstream, the professionals, and the people that present themselves to the world need to clean up their act, and present themselves as true businessmen. The rest of us can still have our exclusive culture of gaming that takes place as the people that play games, and revel in the exclusivity. The people that watch games, they can have their professionalism. Frankly there's no other way for this to shake out, it will just take a certain amount of time for people to realize it. I think you got it backwards. BW fans reveled in the fact that BW was so mainstream in Korea. That it was on two tv networks, that it has coaches, announcers, legions of fangirls and fanboys, that it was THE game to play in the PC Bangs like LoL is now. Exclusivity nothing. We reveled in the fact that Boxer was so charismatic and we love the star power of albiet of the current pro's. I was not a BW fan, so forgive me, but my opinions are only what I've read. But I am certain people have said they enjoyed the fact that the TL community was so small and exclusive.
Probably due to the culture shock of waves of SC2 people flooding into TL. But I can guarantee you, we are proud that a few years ago, the final rounds could pull in 100,000 live audience. We're not a bunch of hipster nerds. We just really enjoy the skill.
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On the other hand, if you think they're spineless assholes who want to police bad words in a game where you're nuking/murdering/destroying other people, or games where the main character has to endure torture or murder innocent civilians (MW2), that's fine, too.
Yeah, they are games. Like, not real people. Like, make-believe. I don't know if it is fair to compare what is basically jumping on goombas, to words that deride a race or sexual orientation. His comments aren't a part of the actual game, they are directed at a person, like a real one. (I'm assuming that's to what he is referring) idk :/
either way good luck Destiny and Quantic.
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Worthless racist..
I am very glad he got kicked out of Quantic (even though he tries to make it look like it was his decision... )
I cannot believe he is still sticking to his insults like it's nothing.
Go away Destiny...
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On May 04 2012 17:19 Fueled wrote:Show nested quote +the sponsors won't come if the scene is bland and has no emotional element, the media/sponsors love drama and characters, mainstream sponsors and TV will view this scene as incredibly sensitive and won't touch it as it could backfire in their face if they make a wrong move Yes, because all the media/sponsors want to just flock to the guy who calls his opponent racial/ethnic slurs when he loses. Drama is good to some degree, but keep the racial/ethnic slurs out of it.
this sets a precedent that if you step out of line the mob will pursue you, interesting people will think twice before joining this game/community, destiny is a lot more than a few racial slurs, hence why people who didn't like racial slurs are still able to find him entertaining and enjoy his stream
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On May 04 2012 17:22 Boiler Bandsman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:17 FairForever wrote:On May 04 2012 17:16 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
I cannot believe the overreactions happening here...people are getting so wound up over, ultimately, words. Words. Actually, word singular. Something that slipped out in a moment of rage, and was not backed by any harmful action whatsoever.
See, that's the thing. Words only hurt people who allow themselves to be hurt by them. Remember when "nerd" was a pejorative in 4th grade? We didn't let it bother us, and we didn't get hurt by it. Words are only different if we let them be. Calling someone a bitch could be considered just as sexist as "gook" is racist...but it's not, because we haven't built it up into a huge deal, and as a result it's not a weapon in the arsenal of those who truly are sexist. By reacting so strongly to it, we are in fact reinforcing the strength of whatever racist term du jour is up for debate. If everyone just ignores it, it loses both its offensiveness and shock power.
To those who e-mailed sponsors: that was foolish. E-mailing sponsors doesn't result in damage to Destiny. It damages the entire scene eventually. A company is far more likely to simply stay away from SC2 altogether than they are to get involved in the debates over which players are "acceptable" to some percentage of the community. Hardly the case. Destiny was given many chances to apologize and we all saw what happened there. To a lot of people (including myself), the follow-up was 10x worse than what originally happened. And sure, words are only hurtful if we let them be. Why don't you go use some derogatory language such as the n-word to an african american and explain that to him? The apology or non-apology isn't the point. Destiny was right about one thing: do people ever actually believe those cookie-cutter apologies anyway? To your second point, who is in the wrong if I do that and get beaten for it?
Then the issue isn't that Destiny didn't apologize. It's bigger than that - that he still doesn't understand why using those words is unacceptable in general.
If you do that and get beaten, both of you are in the wrong. He should have taken other steps while avoiding violence, and you should not have used it.
In this case I think Warden did the right thing.
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On May 04 2012 17:15 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:09 jnsjr wrote:On May 04 2012 17:04 mememolly wrote:On May 04 2012 17:00 papaz wrote:On May 04 2012 16:53 mememolly wrote:On May 04 2012 16:51 imMUTAble787 wrote:On May 04 2012 16:47 mememolly wrote:On May 04 2012 16:40 BakedButters wrote:
I will gladly continue to express my dislike of Destiny, as per his own rant. Your insensitive attitude towards the community, unprofessional manner/behavior, does not encourage the growth of e-sports.
I don't know why you think your the shit, but in the end, it's performance results, sportsmanlike attitude (arrogant or humble), hard work, that makes you respected in this community and sport.
Sure you might have fans now because your a US foreigner, but in the end your crappy attitude will bite you back, and you will become irrelevant, if you don't change you know you didn't have to watch his stream right? stop trying to police the world to your standards seems more like the community policed an individual to the community's standards. maybe one day you'll understand this individual's opinion represents a sizeable percentage of the people on this site. lolol so we should just let the mob decide everything for us and allow no individuality in the scene? thanks lolol Funny you should use the word "we". The vocal "we" just spoke its mind and as a result the clown Destiny got a reality check and realized he can't get away with saying anything he wants in order to protect his "individuality". If you are part of another vocal "we" then by all means, email the sponsors, tell them you like individuals using the word "gook" and they should sponsor more people like Destiny. Hell, you can even propose your own players saying "gook" to the sponsors if you think that will make the scene better and sponsors happy. you didn't answer my point, you don't realise how this sort of situation scares away interesting people from joining the scene Do you not realize how condoning (and even trying to protect) visible members who use racial, homophobic, and gender-based slurs can scare away interesting people like minorities, women, gays, and older gamers? Do you not realize how that can scare corporate sponsors that don't want to end up on TV or even popular news media sites being shown to support such behavior? There is a reason that its not socially acceptable to use such words outside of this insular community. the sponsors won't come if the scene is bland and has no emotional element, the media/sponsors love drama and characters, mainstream sponsors and TV will view this scene as incredibly sensitive and won't touch it as it could backfire in their face if they make a wrong move
Using slurs doesn't make the scene exciting. Rivalries between players, between teams, etc does. I can't think of another player who actively slurs that is as popular as that guy. Korean players are exciting and fan favorites, and you don't see them slurring (publicly at least). BW has sponsorships, and again, you don't see those guys publicly slurring. Do you not find the guys on Liquid exciting? What about on the Korean teams? What about on MouseSports? Many of the players on these teams have personality. They are not all manner; some of them swear alot. Acting in such a way is not necessary to creating an emotional element, and making things exciting.
You may be very well right that sponsors may avoid this community if they feel we are incredibly sensitive. It could backfire. The answer though is not to just let people act like this and not speak up. Like I've said in my previous posts, I hope that people will let the teams handle this and not go straight to the sponsors in the future. Hopefully, guys like Razer don't pull out of the industry, but will continue to support teams like Liquid/Slayers who really vet their players and care about the image they portray.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
Some days, this community makes me feel sick. Any other players or casters you want fired? Don't bring the high-horse bullshit like you've never ever said something bad yourselves. I curse all the time and I generally don't mean anything by it, and I don't believe Destiny's intent was to harm anyone, either - he's like that.
Like said, this community can be toxic.
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On May 04 2012 16:49 GhandiEAGLE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:44 partisan wrote:
Hopefully this will be a lesson to other players and teams in the future yeah who needs personality. teams should just go ahead and stomp that out right now.
Somehow people like Sheth, Sase. MC, DRG, MKP and Thorzain all have personalities that are entertaining, different and don't require regular use of slurs.
As for the people who are like " don't watch his stream," that's not the issue. Remember that this was brought up by the person whom the slurs were directed at. Any sponsored player who ladders will always face the risk of their opponent screencapping any interactions they have with them. Even if Destiny was not broadcasting the match to the general public at some point or another a random member of the public would have been subject to his raging. Racial and homophobic language is already a reportable offense by blizzard so you can't even complain about the person bringing it up. Sponsored players should be responsible for how they present themselves to the public and that includes the ladder. No one is saying players can't act human or rage, they are saying that the price for being a pro is being held to professional standards.
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Canada11369 Posts
On May 04 2012 17:24 Myrkskog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:20 Falling wrote:On May 04 2012 17:16 Myrkskog wrote:
Not the wording of the apology itself. The fact that it was written in the first place. wut. Am I reading this wrong? Apologies are a sign of fakeness? The willingness to admit fault is as honest as you can get. I was responding to NRGmonk
I recognize that, but I find the entire notion appalling. An insincere apology would be fake, which I presume is what Destiny meant on one of his reddit posts. (That he wouldn't apologize because that would be fake.) But apologies are not inherently fake.
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On May 04 2012 17:24 Xenogears wrote:
Worthless racist..
I am very glad he got kicked out of Quantic (even though he tries to make it look like it was his decision... )
I cannot believe he is still sticking to his insults like it's nothing.
Go away Destiny...
Odds are in strong favor of him not being an actual racist.
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On May 04 2012 17:27 Zealously wrote:
Some days, this community makes me feel sick. Any other players or casters you want fired? Don't bring the high-horse bullshit like you've never ever said something bad yourselves. I curse all the time and I generally don't mean anything by it, and I don't believe Destiny's intent was to harm anyone, either - he's like that.
Like said, this community can be toxic.
Warden also said he doesn't believe Destiny is a racist. But it doesn't excuse the use of the language.
Instead of this being a great teaching moment and development in the community it seems to have reared its ugly head, with people actually defending the use of these words. It kind of makes me sad.
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Smart statement is smart. Destiny did what is best for Quantic. Not completely sure how much, if at all, this changes his situation, but it's still admirable to see players knowing they are liabilities and owning up to it. I wish i actually bothered to watch his streams though...
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On May 04 2012 17:28 ReturnStroke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:24 Xenogears wrote:
Worthless racist..
I am very glad he got kicked out of Quantic (even though he tries to make it look like it was his decision... )
I cannot believe he is still sticking to his insults like it's nothing.
Go away Destiny... Odds are in strong favor of him not being an actual racist.
No one cares, nor does it matter, if you are an "actual racist" or a "fake racist" when you are using racist language.
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On May 04 2012 17:24 Xenogears wrote:
Worthless racist..
I am very glad he got kicked out of Quantic (even though he tries to make it look like it was his decision... )
I cannot believe he is still sticking to his insults like it's nothing.
Go away Destiny...
Worthless racist?
This is the same guy that raised (together with Sheth, of course) 32.000 dollars for Médecins Sans Frontières. Is that worthless? What have you done for this community, or even with this community at all? It's highly unlikely that you'll come anywhere CLOSE to what Destiny's managed to do.
It's too bad the community is exerting power for a cause that's not feasible at all.
Good luck to Destiny.
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EPT
