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Keep this civil, guys |
Canada11385 Posts
On May 04 2012 17:11 SimDawg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:57 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 16:55 SimDawg wrote:On May 04 2012 16:51 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 16:50 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 16:44 DystopiaX wrote:On May 04 2012 16:41 Dodgin wrote:
I'm starting to see a pattern here.
For better or for worse things are changing around sc2 and how the teams/community functions compared to a year ago or even less than that.
Oh well I'll always have the GSL/OSL/PL even if the foreign sc2 scene nukes itself into oblivion. I fail to see how getting the community to act more professionally will "nuke" it. the community is driven by its character, and trying to make it "professional" in this way will strip the life out of it. this is a videogame. we are videogamers. we should expect people to act like a videogamer, not some pompous golfer. What does that mean, exactly, to "act like a videogamer?" Is using the word "gook" "acting like a videogamer?" How can you deny there's a culture around gaming that includes offensive words, raging, and general internet based angst? And there's an argument for preserving that, at least IMO. The better point is...we are gamers, Destiny is a professional, and there needs to be a line there. Can you make an argument for preserving a culture that includes using words like "nigger" and "gook?" I'm interested to hear it. I've read a lot about this recently, so be aware my opinions are tinged with recent articles floating around in my head. The culture around games is based on exclusivity. In the same way SC:BW fans reveled in their indie community that "understood", gamers as a larger group are proud to be gamers. It's nice to be one of the ones that "gets it." And I think this has grown up from us, in large part, having to defend ourselves from the outside. However instead of having gaming be a thing that is looked down upon, we've begun to wear it like a badge of honor. Language is one of those things that keeps gaming exclusive. People who know Destiny, Orb, or Katu all know they're not racist. They use that language as a gamer would. It keeps people who don't "get it" out of our games. And I love the fact that it does. People who understand us as gamers can take those insults, just like all of us can over a ladder game or over Mumble or TS3, and not be effected by them. As SC2 becomes more mainstream, the professionals, and the people that present themselves to the world need to clean up their act, and present themselves as true businessmen. The rest of us can still have our exclusive culture of gaming that takes place as the people that play games, and revel in the exclusivity. The people that watch games, they can have their professionalism. Frankly there's no other way for this to shake out, it will just take a certain amount of time for people to realize it.
I think you got it backwards. BW fans reveled in the fact that BW was so mainstream in Korea. That it was on two tv networks, that it has coaches, announcers, legions of fangirls and fanboys, that it was THE game to play in the PC Bangs like LoL is now. Exclusivity nothing. We reveled in the fact that Boxer was so charismatic and we love the star power of albiet of the current pro's.
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Not the wording of the apology itself. The fact that it was written in the first place.
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On May 04 2012 15:57 Xeris wrote:
ROOTdestiny
YES!!!! this 100% The best team ever in sc2 no doubt.
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If anyone wants to find the next target lets go get that Warden guy that started this. Lets face it this is a guy that started this huge drama and gave people an opportunity to actually figure out the way to destroy e sports. If there was anyone to go after at this point in time. its this guy. we need to keep this esports alive right? so lets get rid of this potential threat. Besides who knows which pro this guy will target next if they piss him off. Dont let him have a chance to get rid of your favourite pro!
Course this is just an idea, just to think about it is all. 
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I don't know how this whole story ended up with such huge proportion
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he was never a really good player in my opinion, just abused infestors correctly for a while and then faded away. cursing is probably okay on stream since there is a warning for minors when they join it, but racism is not even if its not meant as racism, use of certain words is taken too lightly at times.
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On May 04 2012 17:14 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:57 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 16:55 SimDawg wrote:On May 04 2012 16:51 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 16:50 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 16:44 DystopiaX wrote:On May 04 2012 16:41 Dodgin wrote:
I'm starting to see a pattern here.
For better or for worse things are changing around sc2 and how the teams/community functions compared to a year ago or even less than that.
Oh well I'll always have the GSL/OSL/PL even if the foreign sc2 scene nukes itself into oblivion. I fail to see how getting the community to act more professionally will "nuke" it. the community is driven by its character, and trying to make it "professional" in this way will strip the life out of it. this is a videogame. we are videogamers. we should expect people to act like a videogamer, not some pompous golfer. What does that mean, exactly, to "act like a videogamer?" Is using the word "gook" "acting like a videogamer?" How can you deny there's a culture around gaming that includes offensive words, raging, and general internet based angst? And there's an argument for preserving that, at least IMO. The better point is...we are gamers, Destiny is a professional, and there needs to be a line there. Can you make an argument for preserving a culture that includes using words like "nigger" and "gook?" I'm interested to hear it. desensitization.
Something is culturally acceptable because it desensitizes its members to hurtful things?
So how about your stash of tentacle rape porn?
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On May 04 2012 17:16 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
I cannot believe the overreactions happening here...people are getting so wound up over, ultimately, words. Words. Actually, word singular. Something that slipped out in a moment of rage, and was not backed by any harmful action whatsoever.
See, that's the thing. Words only hurt people who allow themselves to be hurt by them. Remember when "nerd" was a pejorative in 4th grade? We didn't let it bother us, and we didn't get hurt by it. Words are only different if we let them be. Calling someone a bitch could be considered just as sexist as "gook" is racist...but it's not, because we haven't built it up into a huge deal, and as a result it's not a weapon in the arsenal of those who truly are sexist. By reacting so strongly to it, we are in fact reinforcing the strength of whatever racist term du jour is up for debate. If everyone just ignores it, it loses both its offensiveness and shock power.
To those who e-mailed sponsors: that was foolish. E-mailing sponsors doesn't result in damage to Destiny. It damages the entire scene eventually. A company is far more likely to simply stay away from SC2 altogether than they are to get involved in the debates over which players are "acceptable" to some percentage of the community.
Hardly the case. Destiny was given many chances to apologize and we all saw what happened there.
To a lot of people (including myself), the follow-up was 10x worse than what originally happened.
And sure, words are only hurtful if we let them be. Why don't you go use some derogatory language such as the n-word to an african american and explain that to him?
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On May 04 2012 17:16 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:11 SimDawg wrote:On May 04 2012 16:57 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 16:55 SimDawg wrote:On May 04 2012 16:51 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 16:50 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 16:44 DystopiaX wrote:On May 04 2012 16:41 Dodgin wrote:
I'm starting to see a pattern here.
For better or for worse things are changing around sc2 and how the teams/community functions compared to a year ago or even less than that.
Oh well I'll always have the GSL/OSL/PL even if the foreign sc2 scene nukes itself into oblivion. I fail to see how getting the community to act more professionally will "nuke" it. the community is driven by its character, and trying to make it "professional" in this way will strip the life out of it. this is a videogame. we are videogamers. we should expect people to act like a videogamer, not some pompous golfer. What does that mean, exactly, to "act like a videogamer?" Is using the word "gook" "acting like a videogamer?" How can you deny there's a culture around gaming that includes offensive words, raging, and general internet based angst? And there's an argument for preserving that, at least IMO. The better point is...we are gamers, Destiny is a professional, and there needs to be a line there. Can you make an argument for preserving a culture that includes using words like "nigger" and "gook?" I'm interested to hear it. I've read a lot about this recently, so be aware my opinions are tinged with recent articles floating around in my head. The culture around games is based on exclusivity. In the same way SC:BW fans reveled in their indie community that "understood", gamers as a larger group are proud to be gamers. It's nice to be one of the ones that "gets it." And I think this has grown up from us, in large part, having to defend ourselves from the outside. However instead of having gaming be a thing that is looked down upon, we've begun to wear it like a badge of honor. Language is one of those things that keeps gaming exclusive. People who know Destiny, Orb, or Katu all know they're not racist. They use that language as a gamer would. It keeps people who don't "get it" out of our games. And I love the fact that it does. People who understand us as gamers can take those insults, just like all of us can over a ladder game or over Mumble or TS3, and not be effected by them. As SC2 becomes more mainstream, the professionals, and the people that present themselves to the world need to clean up their act, and present themselves as true businessmen. The rest of us can still have our exclusive culture of gaming that takes place as the people that play games, and revel in the exclusivity. The people that watch games, they can have their professionalism. Frankly there's no other way for this to shake out, it will just take a certain amount of time for people to realize it. I think you got it backwards. BW fans reveled in the fact that BW was so mainstream in Korea. That it was on two tv networks, that it has coaches, announcers, legions of fangirls and fanboys, that it was THE game to play in the PC Bangs like LoL is now. Exclusivity nothing. We reveled in the fact that Boxer was so charismatic and we love the star power of albiet of the current pro's.
I was not a BW fan, so forgive me, but my opinions are only what I've read. But I am certain people have said they enjoyed the fact that the TL community was so small and exclusive.
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On May 04 2012 17:17 ToD wrote:
he was never a really good player in my opinion, just abused infestors correctly for a while and then faded away. cursing is probably okay on stream since there is a warning for minors when they join it, but racism is not even if its not meant as racism, use of certain words is taken too lightly at times.
Have to agree with this - if Destiny wants to BM it's his prerogative, but what he said went way past the boundaries.
People get heated in the moment but he was given opportunities to respond and the way he responded was unprofessional and insulting to the community.
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On May 04 2012 17:16 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
I cannot believe the overreactions happening here...people are getting so wound up over, ultimately, words. Words. Actually, word singular. Something that slipped out in a moment of rage, and was not backed by any harmful action whatsoever.
See, that's the thing. Words only hurt people who allow themselves to be hurt by them. Remember when "nerd" was a pejorative in 4th grade? We didn't let it bother us, and we didn't get hurt by it. Words are only different if we let them be. Calling someone a bitch could be considered just as sexist as "gook" is racist...but it's not, because we haven't built it up into a huge deal, and as a result it's not a weapon in the arsenal of those who truly are sexist. By reacting so strongly to it, we are in fact reinforcing the strength of whatever racist term du jour is up for debate. If everyone just ignores it, it loses both its offensiveness and shock power.
To those who e-mailed sponsors: that was foolish. E-mailing sponsors doesn't result in damage to Destiny. It damages the entire scene eventually. A company is far more likely to simply stay away from SC2 altogether than they are to get involved in the debates over which players are "acceptable" to some percentage of the community.
because this was the first time Destiny has raged like this... Come on dude, this is a regular scene on his stream.
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On May 04 2012 17:13 Sareth wrote:Didn't a moderator stated in the other Thread that they wont do something like this?
This is actually the first time I've seen a stream unlisted from a ban of this level of controversy, but whomever banned him really had a nerve struck.
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the sponsors won't come if the scene is bland and has no emotional element, the media/sponsors love drama and characters, mainstream sponsors and TV will view this scene as incredibly sensitive and won't touch it as it could backfire in their face if they make a wrong move
Yes, because all the media/sponsors want to just flock to the guy who calls his opponent racial/ethnic slurs when he loses.
Drama is good to some degree, but keep the racial/ethnic slurs out of it.
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Canada11385 Posts
On May 04 2012 17:16 Myrkskog wrote:
Not the wording of the apology itself. The fact that it was written in the first place.
wut.
Am I reading this wrong? Apologies are a sign of fakeness? The willingness to admit fault is as honest as you can get.
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On May 04 2012 17:19 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:13 Sareth wrote:Didn't a moderator stated in the other Thread that they wont do something like this? This is actually the first time I've seen a stream unlisted from a ban of this level of controversy, but whomever banned him really had a nerve struck.
It was a collective decisions by the mods to ban him and I assume the same collective decision to unlist him. Just so that's clear.
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On May 04 2012 17:19 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:13 Sareth wrote:Didn't a moderator stated in the other Thread that they wont do something like this? This is actually the first time I've seen a stream unlisted from a ban of this level of controversy, but whomever banned him really had a nerve struck.
Orb was banned awhile ago for the same thing and had his stream unlisted.
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On May 04 2012 17:19 Fueled wrote:Show nested quote +the sponsors won't come if the scene is bland and has no emotional element, the media/sponsors love drama and characters, mainstream sponsors and TV will view this scene as incredibly sensitive and won't touch it as it could backfire in their face if they make a wrong move Yes, because all the media/sponsors want to just flock to the guy who calls his opponent racial/ethnic slurs when he loses. Drama is good to some degree, but keep the racial/ethnic slurs out of it.
Agreed. Sponsors want to be associated with quality and other positive traits. Destiny firstly isn't a winner, and for him to throw around racist language is not appealing. Look at Kurt Busch, a previous NASCAR champ who had trouble getting a ride this season because of his past failures (although not racism).
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On May 04 2012 17:18 SimDawg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:16 Falling wrote:On May 04 2012 17:11 SimDawg wrote:On May 04 2012 16:57 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 16:55 SimDawg wrote:On May 04 2012 16:51 motbob wrote:On May 04 2012 16:50 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 16:44 DystopiaX wrote:On May 04 2012 16:41 Dodgin wrote:
I'm starting to see a pattern here.
For better or for worse things are changing around sc2 and how the teams/community functions compared to a year ago or even less than that.
Oh well I'll always have the GSL/OSL/PL even if the foreign sc2 scene nukes itself into oblivion. I fail to see how getting the community to act more professionally will "nuke" it. the community is driven by its character, and trying to make it "professional" in this way will strip the life out of it. this is a videogame. we are videogamers. we should expect people to act like a videogamer, not some pompous golfer. What does that mean, exactly, to "act like a videogamer?" Is using the word "gook" "acting like a videogamer?" How can you deny there's a culture around gaming that includes offensive words, raging, and general internet based angst? And there's an argument for preserving that, at least IMO. The better point is...we are gamers, Destiny is a professional, and there needs to be a line there. Can you make an argument for preserving a culture that includes using words like "nigger" and "gook?" I'm interested to hear it. I've read a lot about this recently, so be aware my opinions are tinged with recent articles floating around in my head. The culture around games is based on exclusivity. In the same way SC:BW fans reveled in their indie community that "understood", gamers as a larger group are proud to be gamers. It's nice to be one of the ones that "gets it." And I think this has grown up from us, in large part, having to defend ourselves from the outside. However instead of having gaming be a thing that is looked down upon, we've begun to wear it like a badge of honor. Language is one of those things that keeps gaming exclusive. People who know Destiny, Orb, or Katu all know they're not racist. They use that language as a gamer would. It keeps people who don't "get it" out of our games. And I love the fact that it does. People who understand us as gamers can take those insults, just like all of us can over a ladder game or over Mumble or TS3, and not be effected by them. As SC2 becomes more mainstream, the professionals, and the people that present themselves to the world need to clean up their act, and present themselves as true businessmen. The rest of us can still have our exclusive culture of gaming that takes place as the people that play games, and revel in the exclusivity. The people that watch games, they can have their professionalism. Frankly there's no other way for this to shake out, it will just take a certain amount of time for people to realize it. I think you got it backwards. BW fans reveled in the fact that BW was so mainstream in Korea. That it was on two tv networks, that it has coaches, announcers, legions of fangirls and fanboys, that it was THE game to play in the PC Bangs like LoL is now. Exclusivity nothing. We reveled in the fact that Boxer was so charismatic and we love the star power of albiet of the current pro's. I was not a BW fan, so forgive me, but my opinions are only what I've read. But I am certain people have said they enjoyed the fact that the TL community was so small and exclusive.
Some people feeling this way is not a game-related phenomenon--it happens probably just about everywhere. I'm sure you know the stereotype of that person who always says, "I listed to <popular band> before they were cool, you aren't a real fan if you don't own <shitty old album of theirs>."
Other than that I think you are on to something, though.
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He's his own man, saying what he wants to say, and doesn't care about political correctness. He's a respectable guy in that manner, but his racism/bigotry/etc (what makes Destiny into Destiny) doesn't really fit with sponsorships or teams. I think this departure is best for both Destiny and Quantic.
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continues to sicken me how a supposedly smart community can shape itself into something they are not out of pure inertia to social norms.
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EPT
