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On May 05 2012 04:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:36 Rachnar wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2012 04:31 Rachnar wrote:
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul yeah so are Hightemplar which are way slower then Ghosts and can not cloak or hide like infestors. 1 ghost can't turn a battle around Of course it can. 1 ghost can win the game for Terran just as easily as 1 high templar can win the game for Protoss. 1 ghost can be the reason a Protoss loses a battle right from the start. You use ghosts first before you engage, not as a "turning around battles" back up unit. It nullifies the high templar, which the Protoss need. "What if the Protoss splits their spellcasters, making this 1 ghost ineffective?" Yeah? Well what if the Terran splits their units, making this 1 high templar ineffective? It's the same thing.
Splitting marines and marauders is much harder, not the same thing. Any time you move them they clump, you try to stim stutter and they clump, you take one second to aim your vikings and your bio conveniently clumps and yells "SPLASH US". The consequences of not spreading well are much less for protoss.
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On May 05 2012 04:48 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:46 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:43 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above. Lategame is clearly not favored for T at masters level. You might just need to revise your PvT it sounds like. You do know that the majority of Terran players diamond-GM on NA play macro games like this: OK, I'm going to mass Marauder/Medivac and get a third base at 15 minutes with only 50 SCV's and never get ghosts because they were nerfed. Basically like that. Which is completely and utterly terrible.
No, I didn't know that. I don't play on NA anymore.
Honestly, if you could post up some replays of those NA masters players beating you in the late game it'd be super helpful to all of us. You seem to be the bonjwa of TvP, so please by all means, show us the light.
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On May 05 2012 04:54 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:48 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:46 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:43 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above. Lategame is clearly not favored for T at masters level. You might just need to revise your PvT it sounds like. You do know that the majority of Terran players diamond-GM on NA play macro games like this: OK, I'm going to mass Marauder/Medivac and get a third base at 15 minutes with only 50 SCV's and never get ghosts because they were nerfed. Basically like that. Which is completely and utterly terrible. No, I didn't know that. I don't play on NA anymore. Honestly, if you could post up some replays of those NA masters players beating you in the late game it'd be super helpful to all of us. You seem to be the bonjwa of TvP, so please by all means, show us the light.
He should also make a guide in the strategy section. Why keep us in the dark all this time?! ;_;
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On May 05 2012 04:51 KanoCoke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:40 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:32 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:26 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:23 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:
[quote]
Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long.
Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins. I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ. You don't have to. If all his ranged stuff is shooting at your vikings, they should take out at least two of the colossus anyway if you have 14+, meanwhile his units have less shields, specifically his archons, his zealots all died, and now he has colossus/stalker effectively against marine/marauder/medivac/ghost with full upgrades, hmmm...... You assume that all the EMPs hit the whole army with nothing spared. That's hard to do, in my humble opinion. You also have to take into account that in late-game, Protoss usually has at least 10 gates for insta-replenishing supply that just disappeared. Now if you could control 4 groups at the same time like Bisu does, I'm pretty sure you can take down the colossi while avoiding storms and EMPing at the same time, stutter-stepping the bio and retreating the ghosts, then spreading all the bio out into wide arcs to maximize damage potential while minimizing the risk of getting hit by AOE. I'm not sure if your average joe could do that though. It's not really that hard when you have 30 EMP's at your fingertips. Notice that I said 14 vikings will take down a couple of colossus, while stutter stepped Bio will take out the Zealots, leaving a few colossus and some stalker/archon ripe for EMP's. Also, if you can play TvZ late-game, you can absolutely play TvP late-game. It's not actually that hard, most Terran players just don't know the right way to go about doing it. I guess that means MMA, Taeja, jjakji, and MVP don't really know the right way of going about it huh. Also, yes, it wouldn't be that hard if you had 30 EMPs. But what if you don't? Most of the time you don't, unless somehow the Protoss never bothered attacking you until the 20 something minute mark. Vikings are usually shift clicked onto individual colossus according to distance so you can actually focus on your main army not getting destroyed (which I do, because I don't have enough APM to actually control 3+ unit groups at the same time), or your ghosts dying before they get their EMPs out. But anyways, I'm sure you can do all that and more. I, the average joe on the other hand, struggle to micro 2 control groups while minding my structures, upgrades and unit production. TvZ on the other hand, you can just put 4 different full medivacs to 4 different zerg bases while paying attention to your siege line and vikings for the brood lords, as well as patrolling with your marines for infestors and corruptors. So much less intensive on the APM that I don't have.
See the latest Day9 daily on TvP found here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-456-p1-dselect-vs-vilestate-6122025
In this daily, there are two periods described where people die most often: The 8-12 minute mark is where Protoss often die to a Marine/Marauder/Medivac timing, while 13-17 minutes is where Terran players often die to a colossus or Templar timing attack. After those two periods, Terran is favoured.
To not die in the 13-17 minute time period, use the scouting information gained from your push, and determine if he's going for HT's, or Colossus, or both. If HT's, then get a ghost academy and pump ghosts. If Colossus, get double starport and pump vikings. If both, get a double starport and a few ghosts. Just make sure to not-die.
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On May 05 2012 04:56 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:54 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:48 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:46 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:43 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above. Lategame is clearly not favored for T at masters level. You might just need to revise your PvT it sounds like. You do know that the majority of Terran players diamond-GM on NA play macro games like this: OK, I'm going to mass Marauder/Medivac and get a third base at 15 minutes with only 50 SCV's and never get ghosts because they were nerfed. Basically like that. Which is completely and utterly terrible. No, I didn't know that. I don't play on NA anymore. Honestly, if you could post up some replays of those NA masters players beating you in the late game it'd be super helpful to all of us. You seem to be the bonjwa of TvP, so please by all means, show us the light. He should also make a guide in the strategy section. Why keep us in the dark all this time?! ;_;
All in favour of me writing a guide in the strategy section.....
BTW, I'm not a bonjwa or anything, just spreading uncommon knowledge.
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On May 05 2012 04:56 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:54 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:48 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:46 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:43 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above. Lategame is clearly not favored for T at masters level. You might just need to revise your PvT it sounds like. You do know that the majority of Terran players diamond-GM on NA play macro games like this: OK, I'm going to mass Marauder/Medivac and get a third base at 15 minutes with only 50 SCV's and never get ghosts because they were nerfed. Basically like that. Which is completely and utterly terrible. No, I didn't know that. I don't play on NA anymore. Honestly, if you could post up some replays of those NA masters players beating you in the late game it'd be super helpful to all of us. You seem to be the bonjwa of TvP, so please by all means, show us the light. He should also make a guide in the strategy section. Why keep us in the dark all this time?! ;_; i agree lol, i can't even beat high master on kr server,hope he can show me the light .
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I don't know why people are in such an uproar about this. Blizzard didn't say anything particularly new or groundbreaking; their statement can essentially be boiled down to, "Terran has an advantage versus Protoss in the mid-game, and vice versa in the late game. Therefore, both races should exploit their respective windows of opportunity in order to secure a victory."
... That's it.
Terran players already work under that basic rule, by doing all sorts of harassment and drops and such to slow the Protoss war machine before late-game. That's one of the unique aspects of Terran play, being able to disrupt the opponent's economy in a variety of effective ways before it spirals out of control. Protoss players already work under that basic rule, by mitigating the losses sustained by an actively harassing Terran player in order to steamroll the foe when the time is right. That's one of the unique aspects of Protoss play, being able to construct a cost-efficient brick wall of an army that can smash an opponent who does little to prevent its construction.
Blizzard said nothing new. We already knew all of this. We already do all of this.
So why are people angry?
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On May 05 2012 04:52 Snoodles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 05 2012 04:36 Rachnar wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2012 04:31 Rachnar wrote:
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul yeah so are Hightemplar which are way slower then Ghosts and can not cloak or hide like infestors. 1 ghost can't turn a battle around Of course it can. 1 ghost can win the game for Terran just as easily as 1 high templar can win the game for Protoss. 1 ghost can be the reason a Protoss loses a battle right from the start. You use ghosts first before you engage, not as a "turning around battles" back up unit. It nullifies the high templar, which the Protoss need. "What if the Protoss splits their spellcasters, making this 1 ghost ineffective?" Yeah? Well what if the Terran splits their units, making this 1 high templar ineffective? It's the same thing. Splitting marines and marauders is much harder, not the same thing. Any time you move them they clump, you try to stim stutter and they clump, you take one second to aim your vikings and your bio conveniently clumps and yells "SPLASH US". The consequences of not spreading well are much less for protoss.
It's the same for TvZ, not sure why you're complaining about TvP and not the midgame of TvZ as well. 
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On May 05 2012 04:56 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:51 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:40 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:32 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:26 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:23 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:
[quote]
That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals).
While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins. I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ. You don't have to. If all his ranged stuff is shooting at your vikings, they should take out at least two of the colossus anyway if you have 14+, meanwhile his units have less shields, specifically his archons, his zealots all died, and now he has colossus/stalker effectively against marine/marauder/medivac/ghost with full upgrades, hmmm...... You assume that all the EMPs hit the whole army with nothing spared. That's hard to do, in my humble opinion. You also have to take into account that in late-game, Protoss usually has at least 10 gates for insta-replenishing supply that just disappeared. Now if you could control 4 groups at the same time like Bisu does, I'm pretty sure you can take down the colossi while avoiding storms and EMPing at the same time, stutter-stepping the bio and retreating the ghosts, then spreading all the bio out into wide arcs to maximize damage potential while minimizing the risk of getting hit by AOE. I'm not sure if your average joe could do that though. It's not really that hard when you have 30 EMP's at your fingertips. Notice that I said 14 vikings will take down a couple of colossus, while stutter stepped Bio will take out the Zealots, leaving a few colossus and some stalker/archon ripe for EMP's. Also, if you can play TvZ late-game, you can absolutely play TvP late-game. It's not actually that hard, most Terran players just don't know the right way to go about doing it. I guess that means MMA, Taeja, jjakji, and MVP don't really know the right way of going about it huh. Also, yes, it wouldn't be that hard if you had 30 EMPs. But what if you don't? Most of the time you don't, unless somehow the Protoss never bothered attacking you until the 20 something minute mark. Vikings are usually shift clicked onto individual colossus according to distance so you can actually focus on your main army not getting destroyed (which I do, because I don't have enough APM to actually control 3+ unit groups at the same time), or your ghosts dying before they get their EMPs out. But anyways, I'm sure you can do all that and more. I, the average joe on the other hand, struggle to micro 2 control groups while minding my structures, upgrades and unit production. TvZ on the other hand, you can just put 4 different full medivacs to 4 different zerg bases while paying attention to your siege line and vikings for the brood lords, as well as patrolling with your marines for infestors and corruptors. So much less intensive on the APM that I don't have. See the latest Day9 daily on TvP found here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-456-p1-dselect-vs-vilestate-6122025In this daily, there are two periods described where people die most often: The 8-12 minute mark is where Protoss often die to a Marine/Marauder/Medivac timing, while 13-17 minutes is where Terran players often die to a colossus or Templar timing attack. After those two periods, Terran is favoured. To not die in the 13-17 minute time period, use the scouting information gained from your push, and determine if he's going for HT's, or Colossus, or both. If HT's, then get a ghost academy and pump ghosts. If Colossus, get double starport and pump vikings. If both, get a double starport and a few ghosts. Just make sure to not-die.
The funny thing is, I don't have a problem with early and mid-game. I'm talking about late-game. But anyways, go on and ignore me.
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On May 05 2012 04:58 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:56 Mehukannu wrote:On May 05 2012 04:54 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:48 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:46 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:43 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above. Lategame is clearly not favored for T at masters level. You might just need to revise your PvT it sounds like. You do know that the majority of Terran players diamond-GM on NA play macro games like this: OK, I'm going to mass Marauder/Medivac and get a third base at 15 minutes with only 50 SCV's and never get ghosts because they were nerfed. Basically like that. Which is completely and utterly terrible. No, I didn't know that. I don't play on NA anymore. Honestly, if you could post up some replays of those NA masters players beating you in the late game it'd be super helpful to all of us. You seem to be the bonjwa of TvP, so please by all means, show us the light. He should also make a guide in the strategy section. Why keep us in the dark all this time?! ;_; i agree lol, i can't even beat high master on kr server,hope he can show me the light .
I'd better get to work on that then. Expect lots of references to the recent Day9 Dailies.
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On May 05 2012 04:58 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:52 Snoodles wrote:On May 05 2012 04:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 05 2012 04:36 Rachnar wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2012 04:31 Rachnar wrote:
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul yeah so are Hightemplar which are way slower then Ghosts and can not cloak or hide like infestors. 1 ghost can't turn a battle around Of course it can. 1 ghost can win the game for Terran just as easily as 1 high templar can win the game for Protoss. 1 ghost can be the reason a Protoss loses a battle right from the start. You use ghosts first before you engage, not as a "turning around battles" back up unit. It nullifies the high templar, which the Protoss need. "What if the Protoss splits their spellcasters, making this 1 ghost ineffective?" Yeah? Well what if the Terran splits their units, making this 1 high templar ineffective? It's the same thing. Splitting marines and marauders is much harder, not the same thing. Any time you move them they clump, you try to stim stutter and they clump, you take one second to aim your vikings and your bio conveniently clumps and yells "SPLASH US". The consequences of not spreading well are much less for protoss. It's the same for TvZ, not sure why you're complaining about TvP and not the midgame of TvZ as well.
You don't stutter while splitting in TvZ. You split and as you split the already split units are firing at the banes and tanking bane explosions.
There's no equivalent against storms.
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On May 05 2012 05:00 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:58 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 04:56 Mehukannu wrote:On May 05 2012 04:54 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:48 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:46 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:43 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above. Lategame is clearly not favored for T at masters level. You might just need to revise your PvT it sounds like. You do know that the majority of Terran players diamond-GM on NA play macro games like this: OK, I'm going to mass Marauder/Medivac and get a third base at 15 minutes with only 50 SCV's and never get ghosts because they were nerfed. Basically like that. Which is completely and utterly terrible. No, I didn't know that. I don't play on NA anymore. Honestly, if you could post up some replays of those NA masters players beating you in the late game it'd be super helpful to all of us. You seem to be the bonjwa of TvP, so please by all means, show us the light. He should also make a guide in the strategy section. Why keep us in the dark all this time?! ;_; i agree lol, i can't even beat high master on kr server,hope he can show me the light . I'd better get to work on that then. Expect lots of references to the recent Day9 Dailies.
Did you think Day9 can help on my level ??????? it funny that you can't even analyse with your self -_-
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On May 05 2012 04:59 KanoCoke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:56 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:51 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:40 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:32 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:26 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:23 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:
[quote]
Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins. I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ. You don't have to. If all his ranged stuff is shooting at your vikings, they should take out at least two of the colossus anyway if you have 14+, meanwhile his units have less shields, specifically his archons, his zealots all died, and now he has colossus/stalker effectively against marine/marauder/medivac/ghost with full upgrades, hmmm...... You assume that all the EMPs hit the whole army with nothing spared. That's hard to do, in my humble opinion. You also have to take into account that in late-game, Protoss usually has at least 10 gates for insta-replenishing supply that just disappeared. Now if you could control 4 groups at the same time like Bisu does, I'm pretty sure you can take down the colossi while avoiding storms and EMPing at the same time, stutter-stepping the bio and retreating the ghosts, then spreading all the bio out into wide arcs to maximize damage potential while minimizing the risk of getting hit by AOE. I'm not sure if your average joe could do that though. It's not really that hard when you have 30 EMP's at your fingertips. Notice that I said 14 vikings will take down a couple of colossus, while stutter stepped Bio will take out the Zealots, leaving a few colossus and some stalker/archon ripe for EMP's. Also, if you can play TvZ late-game, you can absolutely play TvP late-game. It's not actually that hard, most Terran players just don't know the right way to go about doing it. I guess that means MMA, Taeja, jjakji, and MVP don't really know the right way of going about it huh. Also, yes, it wouldn't be that hard if you had 30 EMPs. But what if you don't? Most of the time you don't, unless somehow the Protoss never bothered attacking you until the 20 something minute mark. Vikings are usually shift clicked onto individual colossus according to distance so you can actually focus on your main army not getting destroyed (which I do, because I don't have enough APM to actually control 3+ unit groups at the same time), or your ghosts dying before they get their EMPs out. But anyways, I'm sure you can do all that and more. I, the average joe on the other hand, struggle to micro 2 control groups while minding my structures, upgrades and unit production. TvZ on the other hand, you can just put 4 different full medivacs to 4 different zerg bases while paying attention to your siege line and vikings for the brood lords, as well as patrolling with your marines for infestors and corruptors. So much less intensive on the APM that I don't have. See the latest Day9 daily on TvP found here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-456-p1-dselect-vs-vilestate-6122025In this daily, there are two periods described where people die most often: The 8-12 minute mark is where Protoss often die to a Marine/Marauder/Medivac timing, while 13-17 minutes is where Terran players often die to a colossus or Templar timing attack. After those two periods, Terran is favoured. To not die in the 13-17 minute time period, use the scouting information gained from your push, and determine if he's going for HT's, or Colossus, or both. If HT's, then get a ghost academy and pump ghosts. If Colossus, get double starport and pump vikings. If both, get a double starport and a few ghosts. Just make sure to not-die. The funny thing is, I don't have a problem with early and mid-game. I'm talking about late-game. But anyways, go on and ignore me.
You said that 'what if protoss attacks before you have critical mass of ghosts and vikings'. I said how to beat that and what time they usually push at. Are we on the same page here?
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On May 05 2012 04:58 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:52 Snoodles wrote:On May 05 2012 04:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 05 2012 04:36 Rachnar wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2012 04:31 Rachnar wrote:
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul yeah so are Hightemplar which are way slower then Ghosts and can not cloak or hide like infestors. 1 ghost can't turn a battle around Of course it can. 1 ghost can win the game for Terran just as easily as 1 high templar can win the game for Protoss. 1 ghost can be the reason a Protoss loses a battle right from the start. You use ghosts first before you engage, not as a "turning around battles" back up unit. It nullifies the high templar, which the Protoss need. "What if the Protoss splits their spellcasters, making this 1 ghost ineffective?" Yeah? Well what if the Terran splits their units, making this 1 high templar ineffective? It's the same thing. Splitting marines and marauders is much harder, not the same thing. Any time you move them they clump, you try to stim stutter and they clump, you take one second to aim your vikings and your bio conveniently clumps and yells "SPLASH US". The consequences of not spreading well are much less for protoss. It's the same for TvZ, not sure why you're complaining about TvP and not the midgame of TvZ as well.
midgame of tvz is much mroe manageable with siege tanks and you always have marines PRE splitted all the time and DON'T or EVER (in most situations anyways), move your whole army at once when you can get fucked by AoE
if you play protoss, don't even start about TvZ, you don't know shit
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On May 05 2012 04:58 Aeres wrote:
I don't know why people are in such an uproar about this. Blizzard didn't say anything particularly new or groundbreaking; their statement can essentially be boiled down to, "Terran has an advantage versus Protoss in the mid-game, and vice versa in the late game. Therefore, both races should exploit their respective windows of opportunity in order to secure a victory."
... That's it.
Terran players already work under that basic rule, by doing all sorts of harassment and drops and such to slow the Protoss war machine before late-game. That's one of the unique aspects of Terran play, being able to disrupt the opponent's economy in a variety of effective ways before it spirals out of control. Protoss players already work under that basic rule, by mitigating the losses sustained by an actively harassing Terran player in order to steamroll the foe when the time is right. That's one of the unique aspects of Protoss play, being able to construct a cost-efficient brick wall of an army that can smash an opponent who does little to prevent its construction.
Blizzard said nothing new. We already knew all of this. We already do all of this.
So why are people angry?
As I read it the problem a lot of terrans have, and i have at times, is that terran may have a 8 minute window to do damage. After that, every minute the game goes on gets hard.
In BW it was a different scenario. It was really hard to get the ideal mech composiion on 3 base, and good arbiter use with storm could be used, with difficulty, to defeat it.
I think one big problem people haven't takled about enough is how warpgates are frontloaded, which means protoss may have 240 food.
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On May 05 2012 05:00 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:00 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:58 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 04:56 Mehukannu wrote:On May 05 2012 04:54 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:48 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:46 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:43 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above. Lategame is clearly not favored for T at masters level. You might just need to revise your PvT it sounds like. You do know that the majority of Terran players diamond-GM on NA play macro games like this: OK, I'm going to mass Marauder/Medivac and get a third base at 15 minutes with only 50 SCV's and never get ghosts because they were nerfed. Basically like that. Which is completely and utterly terrible. No, I didn't know that. I don't play on NA anymore. Honestly, if you could post up some replays of those NA masters players beating you in the late game it'd be super helpful to all of us. You seem to be the bonjwa of TvP, so please by all means, show us the light. He should also make a guide in the strategy section. Why keep us in the dark all this time?! ;_; i agree lol, i can't even beat high master on kr server,hope he can show me the light . I'd better get to work on that then. Expect lots of references to the recent Day9 Dailies. Did you think Day9 can help on my level ???????
well lastshadow is highmaster in korea, like SeleCT. Not sure why you're against me referencing the Day9 Dailies.
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On May 05 2012 05:00 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:58 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 04:56 Mehukannu wrote:On May 05 2012 04:54 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:48 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:46 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:43 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above. Lategame is clearly not favored for T at masters level. You might just need to revise your PvT it sounds like. You do know that the majority of Terran players diamond-GM on NA play macro games like this: OK, I'm going to mass Marauder/Medivac and get a third base at 15 minutes with only 50 SCV's and never get ghosts because they were nerfed. Basically like that. Which is completely and utterly terrible. No, I didn't know that. I don't play on NA anymore. Honestly, if you could post up some replays of those NA masters players beating you in the late game it'd be super helpful to all of us. You seem to be the bonjwa of TvP, so please by all means, show us the light. He should also make a guide in the strategy section. Why keep us in the dark all this time?! ;_; i agree lol, i can't even beat high master on kr server,hope he can show me the light . I'd better get to work on that then. Expect lots of references to the recent Day9 Dailies.
You better make it perfect or else... 
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On May 05 2012 05:01 Froadac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:58 Aeres wrote:
I don't know why people are in such an uproar about this. Blizzard didn't say anything particularly new or groundbreaking; their statement can essentially be boiled down to, "Terran has an advantage versus Protoss in the mid-game, and vice versa in the late game. Therefore, both races should exploit their respective windows of opportunity in order to secure a victory."
... That's it.
Terran players already work under that basic rule, by doing all sorts of harassment and drops and such to slow the Protoss war machine before late-game. That's one of the unique aspects of Terran play, being able to disrupt the opponent's economy in a variety of effective ways before it spirals out of control. Protoss players already work under that basic rule, by mitigating the losses sustained by an actively harassing Terran player in order to steamroll the foe when the time is right. That's one of the unique aspects of Protoss play, being able to construct a cost-efficient brick wall of an army that can smash an opponent who does little to prevent its construction.
Blizzard said nothing new. We already knew all of this. We already do all of this.
So why are people angry? As I read it the problem a lot of terrans have, and i have at times, is that terran may have a 8 minute window to do damage. After that, every minute the game goes on gets hard. In BW it was a different scenario. It was really hard to get the ideal mech composiion on 3 base, and good arbiter use with storm could be used, with difficulty, to defeat it. I think one big problem people haven't takled about enough is how warpgates are frontloaded, which means protoss may have 240 food.
Yeah, if they spend money on 20 gateways.
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On May 05 2012 05:02 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:00 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:58 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 04:56 Mehukannu wrote:On May 05 2012 04:54 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:48 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:46 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:43 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above. Lategame is clearly not favored for T at masters level. You might just need to revise your PvT it sounds like. You do know that the majority of Terran players diamond-GM on NA play macro games like this: OK, I'm going to mass Marauder/Medivac and get a third base at 15 minutes with only 50 SCV's and never get ghosts because they were nerfed. Basically like that. Which is completely and utterly terrible. No, I didn't know that. I don't play on NA anymore. Honestly, if you could post up some replays of those NA masters players beating you in the late game it'd be super helpful to all of us. You seem to be the bonjwa of TvP, so please by all means, show us the light. He should also make a guide in the strategy section. Why keep us in the dark all this time?! ;_; i agree lol, i can't even beat high master on kr server,hope he can show me the light . I'd better get to work on that then. Expect lots of references to the recent Day9 Dailies. You better make it perfect or else...
0.0 I'll be sure to keep it as clean as possible.
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On May 05 2012 05:02 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:01 Froadac wrote:On May 05 2012 04:58 Aeres wrote:
I don't know why people are in such an uproar about this. Blizzard didn't say anything particularly new or groundbreaking; their statement can essentially be boiled down to, "Terran has an advantage versus Protoss in the mid-game, and vice versa in the late game. Therefore, both races should exploit their respective windows of opportunity in order to secure a victory."
... That's it.
Terran players already work under that basic rule, by doing all sorts of harassment and drops and such to slow the Protoss war machine before late-game. That's one of the unique aspects of Terran play, being able to disrupt the opponent's economy in a variety of effective ways before it spirals out of control. Protoss players already work under that basic rule, by mitigating the losses sustained by an actively harassing Terran player in order to steamroll the foe when the time is right. That's one of the unique aspects of Protoss play, being able to construct a cost-efficient brick wall of an army that can smash an opponent who does little to prevent its construction.
Blizzard said nothing new. We already knew all of this. We already do all of this.
So why are people angry? As I read it the problem a lot of terrans have, and i have at times, is that terran may have a 8 minute window to do damage. After that, every minute the game goes on gets hard. In BW it was a different scenario. It was really hard to get the ideal mech composiion on 3 base, and good arbiter use with storm could be used, with difficulty, to defeat it. I think one big problem people haven't takled about enough is how warpgates are frontloaded, which means protoss may have 240 food. Yeah, if they spend money on 20 gateways.
Which isn't uncommon late game pvt. Terran can have 20 rax, but they have to wait 30 seconds for units: they can't join midbattle. Heck, even 20 food midbattle makes a big difference vs 30 food after it.
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EPT
