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On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches.
Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings?
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On May 05 2012 04:05 zEnVy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:57 corose wrote:While I rarely comment on balance because most of it is trivial, the fact that blizzard has openly admitted that TvP forces Terran to push the midgame and by default be weaker in a straight up lategate and then does not want to fix it but would rather have T as an early-mid game focused race is upsetting. Starcraft historically has always valued the macro game, from both a player and viewer perspective. No one wants to watch 1base/2base allins and I would say at least a good part of the player base wants to play long games, myself included. Blizzard did not say anything about all inning. Each race has their own tools to be used differently. If you have a hammer, but want to use it as a wrench, then you're doing something wrong. You can still macro, but maybe NO RUSH 20 min isn't a great idea. Would you play against Zerg with zero aggression before the late game? I sure as hell wouldn't want to let them drone up to 90, but up a bunch of spines and get a sweet infestor broodlord army. Point is, just play your race and use its tools. Drop, harass, push. None of that says all in, that none of that says you have to end the game. You can get into the late game, mine out the map, whatever. All it says is don't be too passive. You're basically saying that terrans just suck and that GSL level Protoss players are just much better than their zerg/terran counterparts because they don't "use it's tools". I've seen way too many games at the pro level where a protoss can just turtle on two base and make an unkillable army that terran/zerg can't stop. You have any idea how hard it is to harass a protoss player who just masses units and sits inside their base? Not only is their whole army about 5-10 seconds away from any point in their base I can drop, they can even just warp in units right in my face.
You don't have to harass. You have to get 3-4 vikings per Colossus, at least 2 marines per zealot, at least 4 medivacs, as many ghosts as you can afford up to 15 max, and the rest of the cash is dumped into marauders>medivacs>reapers.
This isn't actually that hard, you just have to macro. A skill many Terran players seem to have forgotten.
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On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings?
The problem with late game is mostly when the Protoss is on equal footing in terms of eco, or if it's like 3+ bases vs.
After an army trade off, you more than likely won't have EMPs/nor will you have medivacs with energy--- and ghosts take a long time to replenish due to their heavy mineral cost. The hard part after an engagement is if the Protoss has enough economy to warp in a lot of templars/zealots and make a few archons, because archons are really damn strong and hard to deal with when not EMP'ed. Depending on well the engagement went for Terran, it could be pretty much over at that point if no damage is dealt to the infrastructure and the Terran can only trade armies.
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On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast.
No offense but Protoss suggestions like this is why Terrans don't take suggestions seriously. Hellions? That have no upgrades. Vs a 3/3/3 deathball?
Really?
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if youre losing games, youre doing something wrong. just go practice more : / (pros and casuals alike)
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On May 05 2012 04:11 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? The problem with late game is mostly when the Protoss is on equal footing in terms of eco, or if it's like 3+ bases vs. After an army trade off, you more than likely won't have EMPs/nor will you have medivacs with energy--- and ghosts take a long time to replenish due to their heavy mineral cost. The hard part after an engagement is if they Protoss has enough economy to warp in a lot of templars/zealots and make a few archons, because archons are really damn strong and hard to deal with when not EMP'ed. Depending on well the engagement went for Terran, it could be pretty much over at that point if no damage is dealt to the infrastructure and the Terran can only trade armies.
Make more medivacs.
Don't suicide your ghosts.
Get macro orbitals and suicide SCV's so you can punish the protoss more easily with your extra four marines and scans.
Make a PF at your main entrances so that if he wins the battle he can't sprint into your production facilities.
TvP is easy if you're a base ahead, but you don't need to be a base ahead by any means.
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They don't even know TvP late game atm favors terran. Makes me wonder a lot of things.
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On May 05 2012 04:13 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:11 SniXSniPe wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? The problem with late game is mostly when the Protoss is on equal footing in terms of eco, or if it's like 3+ bases vs. After an army trade off, you more than likely won't have EMPs/nor will you have medivacs with energy--- and ghosts take a long time to replenish due to their heavy mineral cost. The hard part after an engagement is if they Protoss has enough economy to warp in a lot of templars/zealots and make a few archons, because archons are really damn strong and hard to deal with when not EMP'ed. Depending on well the engagement went for Terran, it could be pretty much over at that point if no damage is dealt to the infrastructure and the Terran can only trade armies. Make more medivacs. Don't suicide your ghosts. Get macro orbitals and suicide SCV's so you can punish the protoss more easily with your extra four marines and scans. Make a PF at your main entrances so that if he wins the battle he can't sprint into your production facilities.
i ask you a question if you give advice to pro terran player do you think he can do and have the same result with you at high level ?
You can said becuase you didn't have experience in high level play .... speak easy than doing you know
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On May 05 2012 04:15 aTnClouD wrote:
They don't even know TvP late game atm favors terran. Makes me wonder a lot of things.
It's why Blizzard hasn't buffed terran in any of these patches.
/s
In all seriousness, this is true.
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On May 05 2012 04:16 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:13 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:11 SniXSniPe wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? The problem with late game is mostly when the Protoss is on equal footing in terms of eco, or if it's like 3+ bases vs. After an army trade off, you more than likely won't have EMPs/nor will you have medivacs with energy--- and ghosts take a long time to replenish due to their heavy mineral cost. The hard part after an engagement is if they Protoss has enough economy to warp in a lot of templars/zealots and make a few archons, because archons are really damn strong and hard to deal with when not EMP'ed. Depending on well the engagement went for Terran, it could be pretty much over at that point if no damage is dealt to the infrastructure and the Terran can only trade armies. Make more medivacs. Don't suicide your ghosts. Get macro orbitals and suicide SCV's so you can punish the protoss more easily with your extra four marines and scans. Make a PF at your main entrances so that if he wins the battle he can't sprint into your production facilities. i ask you a question if you give advice to pro terran player do you think he can do and have the same result with you at high level ? You can said becuase you didn't have experience in high level play .... speak easy than doing you know
You're absolutely right, for better or for worse. But for better, LastShadow effectively does what I've been saying to do. His TvP build also got featured on a recent Day9 daily, you might check it out. So, I can reference him whenever I'm talking about this, as well as SeleCT, who has super awesome TvP as well. ^^
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On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings?
Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins.
I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ.
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On May 04 2012 21:12 KalWarkov wrote:
if T would learn to build 30 ghosts instead of repeating their MM army over and over again, the lategame results would look different.
there is still a "lategame" (or right before that, however you wanna call it) timing where P has colossi and storm and 3-3 while the T sits on 2-2, has 5-8 ghosts and some vikings - thats when P is overpowered.
in the very lategame, the only thing P has going for it is the faster replenishment - you should NOT be able to win a straight up fight against 3-3 ghostheavy army with tons of medivacs, vikings and just a little mm.
€: acutally, thorzain said when he gets to the mass ghost stage, he simply doesnt lose to P. Axlav says the same.
oh yeah build 30 ghost, that's as easy as building 30 immos, oh wait... no it's NOT easy
vikings ghost medivac, exept for archons carrier colossi, or pure broods infestors, is there a even more improbable/impossible gaz intensive army that can be mustered?
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forgetting everything that this OP guy added in, the fact that almost every terran late game on KR high master/GM always wins and players on NA/EU who dont transition properly or take bases enough to have a good lategame complain that its imbalanced and that blizzard thinks so too..... Its not imbalanced, its more u have to be aggressive midgame while taking more bases/upgrading and filling out ur tech/production. Im pretty sure that some maps allow for harder to defend split map scenarios, but maps like metalopolis/shakuras seem like terran shouldnt lose if they play it out right, since u can get PFs in the middle and split the map with mass orbitals and 160supply in army. Other maps its not as easy for terran to win lategame but im pretty sure most terrans on EU/NA do midgame semi allins and have worse eco than the protoss even tho they have map control and therefore should be able to take more bases and deny more protoss bases much easier.
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On May 05 2012 04:23 KanoCoke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins. I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ.
You don't have to. If all his ranged stuff is shooting at your vikings, they should take out at least two of the colossus anyway if you have 14+, meanwhile his units have less shields, specifically his archons, his zealots all died, and now he has colossus/stalker effectively against marine/marauder/medivac/ghost with full upgrades, hmmm......
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On May 05 2012 04:26 Rachnar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:12 KalWarkov wrote:
if T would learn to build 30 ghosts instead of repeating their MM army over and over again, the lategame results would look different.
there is still a "lategame" (or right before that, however you wanna call it) timing where P has colossi and storm and 3-3 while the T sits on 2-2, has 5-8 ghosts and some vikings - thats when P is overpowered.
in the very lategame, the only thing P has going for it is the faster replenishment - you should NOT be able to win a straight up fight against 3-3 ghostheavy army with tons of medivacs, vikings and just a little mm.
€: acutally, thorzain said when he gets to the mass ghost stage, he simply doesnt lose to P. Axlav says the same. oh yeah build 30 ghost, that's as easy as building 30 immos, oh wait... no it's NOT easy
Yeah. The most in an extreme situation you would make is 20 ghosts simply for mass cloak and sniping obs with Vikings so that the Ghosts can snipe the HT's and just do damage to everything else.
The most ghosts you would want is about 15 usually, they don't do as much DPS compared to marines, move slower so are actually more vulnerable to storms as well as colossus, etc etc..
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saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field and balance out the splash damage on both sides.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
The problem with giving terran strong hightech units is that also terran has the best defensiv capabilities, which makes reaching lategame a non issue. They already have currently the strongest deathball. (Which has to be answered by protoss playing like Terran plays currently with Bio vs. Protoss).
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On May 05 2012 04:15 aTnClouD wrote:
They don't even know TvP late game atm favors terran. Makes me wonder a lot of things.
Glad that a Grandmaster Terran knows what he's speaking about
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On May 05 2012 04:18 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:16 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 04:13 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:11 SniXSniPe wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? The problem with late game is mostly when the Protoss is on equal footing in terms of eco, or if it's like 3+ bases vs. After an army trade off, you more than likely won't have EMPs/nor will you have medivacs with energy--- and ghosts take a long time to replenish due to their heavy mineral cost. The hard part after an engagement is if they Protoss has enough economy to warp in a lot of templars/zealots and make a few archons, because archons are really damn strong and hard to deal with when not EMP'ed. Depending on well the engagement went for Terran, it could be pretty much over at that point if no damage is dealt to the infrastructure and the Terran can only trade armies. Make more medivacs. Don't suicide your ghosts. Get macro orbitals and suicide SCV's so you can punish the protoss more easily with your extra four marines and scans. Make a PF at your main entrances so that if he wins the battle he can't sprint into your production facilities. i ask you a question if you give advice to pro terran player do you think he can do and have the same result with you at high level ? You can said becuase you didn't have experience in high level play .... speak easy than doing you know You're absolutely right, for better or for worse. But for better, LastShadow effectively does what I've been saying to do. His TvP build also got featured on a recent Day9 daily, you might check it out. So, I can reference him whenever I'm talking about this, as well as SeleCT, who has super awesome TvP as well. ^^ i watch Ls every time he stream ... and recently he not do that build anymore but mech or muruader hellion agressive
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On May 05 2012 04:28 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:26 Rachnar wrote:On May 04 2012 21:12 KalWarkov wrote:
if T would learn to build 30 ghosts instead of repeating their MM army over and over again, the lategame results would look different.
there is still a "lategame" (or right before that, however you wanna call it) timing where P has colossi and storm and 3-3 while the T sits on 2-2, has 5-8 ghosts and some vikings - thats when P is overpowered.
in the very lategame, the only thing P has going for it is the faster replenishment - you should NOT be able to win a straight up fight against 3-3 ghostheavy army with tons of medivacs, vikings and just a little mm.
€: acutally, thorzain said when he gets to the mass ghost stage, he simply doesnt lose to P. Axlav says the same. oh yeah build 30 ghost, that's as easy as building 30 immos, oh wait... no it's NOT easy Yeah. The most in an extreme situation you would make is 20 ghosts simply for mass cloak and sniping obs with Vikings so that the Ghosts can snipe the HT's and just do damage to everything else. The most ghosts you would want is about 15 usually, they don't do as much DPS compared to marines, move slower so are actually more vulnerable to storms as well as colossus, etc etc..
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul
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On May 05 2012 04:26 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:23 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins. I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ. You don't have to. If all his ranged stuff is shooting at your vikings, they should take out at least two of the colossus anyway if you have 14+, meanwhile his units have less shields, specifically his archons, his zealots all died, and now he has colossus/stalker effectively against marine/marauder/medivac/ghost with full upgrades, hmmm......
You assume that all the EMPs hit the whole army with nothing spared. That's hard to do, in my humble opinion. You also have to take into account that in late-game, Protoss usually has at least 10 gates for insta-replenishing supply that just disappeared.
Now if you could control 4 groups at the same time like Bisu does, I'm pretty sure you can take down the colossi while avoiding storms and EMPing at the same time, stutter-stepping the bio and retreating the ghosts, then spreading all the bio out into wide arcs to maximize damage potential while minimizing the risk of getting hit by AOE. I'm not sure if your average joe could do that though.
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EPT
