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On May 05 2012 04:05 zEnVy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:57 corose wrote:While I rarely comment on balance because most of it is trivial, the fact that blizzard has openly admitted that TvP forces Terran to push the midgame and by default be weaker in a straight up lategate and then does not want to fix it but would rather have T as an early-mid game focused race is upsetting. Starcraft historically has always valued the macro game, from both a player and viewer perspective. No one wants to watch 1base/2base allins and I would say at least a good part of the player base wants to play long games, myself included. Blizzard did not say anything about all inning. Each race has their own tools to be used differently. If you have a hammer, but want to use it as a wrench, then you're doing something wrong. You can still macro, but maybe NO RUSH 20 min isn't a great idea. Would you play against Zerg with zero aggression before the late game? I sure as hell wouldn't want to let them drone up to 90, but up a bunch of spines and get a sweet infestor broodlord army. Point is, just play your race and use its tools. Drop, harass, push. None of that says all in, that none of that says you have to end the game. You can get into the late game, mine out the map, whatever. All it says is don't be too passive. You're basically saying that terrans just suck and that GSL level Protoss players are just much better than their zerg/terran counterparts because they don't "use it's tools". I've seen way too many games at the pro level where a protoss can just turtle on two base and make an unkillable army that terran/zerg can't stop. You have any idea how hard it is to harass a protoss player who just masses units and sits inside their base? Not only is their whole army about 5-10 seconds away from any point in their base I can drop, they can even just warp in units right in my face.
First GSL in forever when Protoss is doing better than avergae and you already decided that it is (statistically) significant occurence.
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Thank you blizzard, now I know that I should just gg after 20m. I'm sad.
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On May 05 2012 04:31 Rachnar wrote:
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul
yeah so are Hightemplar which are way slower then Ghosts and can not cloak or hide like infestors.
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On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about.
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On May 05 2012 04:04 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:41 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 03:30 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 03:21 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 03:15 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 03:03 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:55 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 02:53 S_SienZ wrote:On May 05 2012 02:51 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases.
But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro. That's odd. I usually win whenever I play on CK against Protoss in the late-game. Are you using carpet EMP's on the Protoss army? That's usually the deciding factor in battles. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that PvT winrate on Cloud Kingdom is at 70%..... He is mid master terran on na with 50% win rate so his enemy not that high you know.... Low master actually, but my point still stands. I always see Pro terran players who lose in the late-game relying far, far too much on Marauders to do their dirty work - which is definitely possible - but you need perfect control to achieve that against storm/colossus, which Terran players just don't have. Instead, I go for Marine/Viking/Medivac/Ghost with few marauders and double starports, TONS of reactors, as well as ship upgrades from the armory, and I win if I defend the counter push after the ten minute timing attack with two medivacs. i do understand the unit composition as well becuase i'm a big fan of ls and do understand marine and ghost is the main DPS for Terran ,but every thing is even hard in high level you know ? you can't emp HT that easily even you have cloack they will use observer / upgrade speed ,So you require more micro than normally to snipe his observer and emp/snipehis HT ,Then i would love to see how to engage and you still got 10+ ghost left in high level play ... He is focusing on remaxing his army and dealing with the second push. Keeping your Ghosts alive is not a huge issue if you control them well, since they have 100 HP and are a priority for Medivacs to heal. Also, sniping the observer is easier if you keep your vikings close to the front. The range of vikings have close to the same range as the observer vision, which means when you scan, you will like just pick it off without doing anything. Plus you get to see the protoss army. Cloaked Ghosts + Vikings + Scan = Ghosts that an move more freely and EMP with style. In korean they always keep their observer with their army so this why it not easy to snipe observer -_- Observer have sight range 11, Vikings have a range of 10. Unless the observer is behind the protoss's stalkers, you should be able to pick them off with a scan or 2. How is it possible that this game has been out for over two fucking years and SO MANY PEOPLE still don't know the basic stats on the god damn units??
Zerglings are ranged units right?
But in all seriousness, killing off observers using a scan and then vikings or a well-timed stim from a few bio units is totally worth the sacrifice from the Terran side if it means that the Protoss temporarily has no detection with the army... then the ghosts can come in and EMP/ snipe spellcasters/ the whole army and then the Terran army can engage.
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On May 05 2012 04:35 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:31 Rachnar wrote:
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul yeah so are Hightemplar which are way slower then Ghosts and can not cloak or hide like infestors.
1 ghost can't turn a battle around
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lol... I would rather have an advantage in mid game than late game.. because not every game goes to the late game. Terrans like to cry...... Stop doing all-ins and learn to actually play and improve your mechanics so then you are able to punish greediness / bad play from the protoss so when you get late game you are in a good position still.
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On May 05 2012 04:32 KanoCoke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:26 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:23 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins. I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ. You don't have to. If all his ranged stuff is shooting at your vikings, they should take out at least two of the colossus anyway if you have 14+, meanwhile his units have less shields, specifically his archons, his zealots all died, and now he has colossus/stalker effectively against marine/marauder/medivac/ghost with full upgrades, hmmm...... You assume that all the EMPs hit the whole army with nothing spared. That's hard to do, in my humble opinion. You also have to take into account that in late-game, Protoss usually has at least 10 gates for insta-replenishing supply that just disappeared. Now if you could control 4 groups at the same time like Bisu does, I'm pretty sure you can take down the colossi while avoiding storms and EMPing at the same time, stutter-stepping the bio and retreating the ghosts, then spreading all the bio out into wide arcs to maximize damage potential while minimizing the risk of getting hit by AOE. I'm not sure if your average joe could do that though.
It's not really that hard when you have 30 EMP's at your fingertips. Notice that I said 14 vikings will take down a couple of colossus, while stutter stepped Bio will take out the Zealots, leaving a few colossus and some stalker/archon ripe for EMP's. Also, if you can play TvZ late-game, you can absolutely play TvP late-game. It's not actually that hard, most Terran players just don't know the right way to go about doing it.
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On May 05 2012 04:36 Rachnar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:35 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2012 04:31 Rachnar wrote:
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul yeah so are Hightemplar which are way slower then Ghosts and can not cloak or hide like infestors. 1 ghost can't turn a battle around
so doesn't 1 storm in lategame if you know how to spread.
same applies to protoss of course, however there comes a time where ghosts can both negate any storm and still emp everything with instant damage.
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On May 05 2012 04:36 Rachnar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:35 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2012 04:31 Rachnar wrote:
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul yeah so are Hightemplar which are way slower then Ghosts and can not cloak or hide like infestors. 1 ghost can't turn a battle around
It can if it gets an amazing EMP off on a group of HTs, which shouldn't happen if the Protoss is competent. We actually saw that exact same thing happen in IPL4 aLive vs Squirtle.
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On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about.
Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above.
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On May 05 2012 04:36 Rachnar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:35 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2012 04:31 Rachnar wrote:
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul yeah so are Hightemplar which are way slower then Ghosts and can not cloak or hide like infestors. 1 ghost can't turn a battle around
Of course it can. 1 ghost can win the game for Terran just as easily as 1 high templar can win the game for Protoss.
1 ghost can be the reason a Protoss loses a battle right from the start. You use ghosts first before you engage, not as a "turning around battles" back up unit. It nullifies the high templar, which the Protoss need. "What if the Protoss splits their spellcasters, making this 1 ghost ineffective?" Yeah? Well what if the Terran splits their units, making this 1 high templar ineffective?
It's the same thing.
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On May 05 2012 04:33 Grim Hatter wrote:
Thank you blizzard, now I know that I should just gg after 20m. I'm sad.
Nu uh. See my other posts.
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On May 05 2012 04:40 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:32 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:26 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:23 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins. I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ. You don't have to. If all his ranged stuff is shooting at your vikings, they should take out at least two of the colossus anyway if you have 14+, meanwhile his units have less shields, specifically his archons, his zealots all died, and now he has colossus/stalker effectively against marine/marauder/medivac/ghost with full upgrades, hmmm...... You assume that all the EMPs hit the whole army with nothing spared. That's hard to do, in my humble opinion. You also have to take into account that in late-game, Protoss usually has at least 10 gates for insta-replenishing supply that just disappeared. Now if you could control 4 groups at the same time like Bisu does, I'm pretty sure you can take down the colossi while avoiding storms and EMPing at the same time, stutter-stepping the bio and retreating the ghosts, then spreading all the bio out into wide arcs to maximize damage potential while minimizing the risk of getting hit by AOE. I'm not sure if your average joe could do that though. It's not really that hard when you have 30 EMP's at your fingertips. Notice that I said 14 vikings will take down a couple of colossus, while stutter stepped Bio will take out the Zealots, leaving a few colossus and some stalker/archon ripe for EMP's. Also, if you can play TvZ late-game, you can absolutely play TvP late-game. It's not actually that hard, most Terran players just don't know the right way to go about doing it.
30 emp's available + 14 vikings, wait, so 0 medivacs nor marines or maraudeurs?
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On May 05 2012 04:43 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above.
Lategame is clearly not favored for T at masters level. You might just need to revise your PvT it sounds like.
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On May 05 2012 04:32 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:05 zEnVy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:57 corose wrote:While I rarely comment on balance because most of it is trivial, the fact that blizzard has openly admitted that TvP forces Terran to push the midgame and by default be weaker in a straight up lategate and then does not want to fix it but would rather have T as an early-mid game focused race is upsetting. Starcraft historically has always valued the macro game, from both a player and viewer perspective. No one wants to watch 1base/2base allins and I would say at least a good part of the player base wants to play long games, myself included. Blizzard did not say anything about all inning. Each race has their own tools to be used differently. If you have a hammer, but want to use it as a wrench, then you're doing something wrong. You can still macro, but maybe NO RUSH 20 min isn't a great idea. Would you play against Zerg with zero aggression before the late game? I sure as hell wouldn't want to let them drone up to 90, but up a bunch of spines and get a sweet infestor broodlord army. Point is, just play your race and use its tools. Drop, harass, push. None of that says all in, that none of that says you have to end the game. You can get into the late game, mine out the map, whatever. All it says is don't be too passive. You're basically saying that terrans just suck and that GSL level Protoss players are just much better than their zerg/terran counterparts because they don't "use it's tools". I've seen way too many games at the pro level where a protoss can just turtle on two base and make an unkillable army that terran/zerg can't stop. You have any idea how hard it is to harass a protoss player who just masses units and sits inside their base? Not only is their whole army about 5-10 seconds away from any point in their base I can drop, they can even just warp in units right in my face. First GSL in forever when Protoss is doing better than avergae and you already decided that it is (statistically) significant occurence.
Well to be honest, I think everyone has gotten used to Terran players doing the best, with Zerg following and Protoss having the poorest results (just follow the trend line in the winrate charts http://imgur.com/a/TC9DB ). Thus whenever this gets shaken up, people begin to cry because it isn't what they are used to, and for the first time in a long time, Protoss is really starting to do well and that shocks a lot of people.
But if 3 out of 4 players in the GSL quarterfinals were Terran, no one would bat an eye.
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On May 05 2012 04:46 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:43 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:28 freetgy wrote:
saying Protoss is favored in lategame is bullshit.
Protoss has a timing, when they hit 200 vs. 200 yes, but the strength of this "deathball" goes immediately down the more ghosts get on the field.
Protoss can never win a lategame fight without good storms, even colossus deal not fast enough damage to deal with maxxed out Bio on Open field. If Terran player can prevent storms, which is still easy compared to hitting a very good storm they come ahead out of any engagement.
If Terran want a Lategame buff, they will have to receive a mid game nerf in exchange, which i don't see.
They already
have the advantage due to Scouting issues / Metagaming in earlygame.
have the advantage due to way better synergie in midgame (no need to rush into tech)
become gradually weaker due to increased splash damage options of protoss.
All terran has to do to win is to either setup in the midgame for the lategame or setup to prevent splash in lategame by preventing storms with ghosts.
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above. Lategame is clearly not favored for T at masters level. You might just need to revise your PvT it sounds like.
You do know that the majority of Terran players diamond-GM on NA play macro games like this:
OK, I'm going to mass Marauder/Medivac and get a third base at 15 minutes with only 50 SCV's and never get ghosts because they were nerfed.
Basically like that. Which is completely and utterly terrible.
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On May 05 2012 04:46 Rachnar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:40 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:32 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:26 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:23 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:
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Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long.
Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins. I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ. You don't have to. If all his ranged stuff is shooting at your vikings, they should take out at least two of the colossus anyway if you have 14+, meanwhile his units have less shields, specifically his archons, his zealots all died, and now he has colossus/stalker effectively against marine/marauder/medivac/ghost with full upgrades, hmmm...... You assume that all the EMPs hit the whole army with nothing spared. That's hard to do, in my humble opinion. You also have to take into account that in late-game, Protoss usually has at least 10 gates for insta-replenishing supply that just disappeared. Now if you could control 4 groups at the same time like Bisu does, I'm pretty sure you can take down the colossi while avoiding storms and EMPing at the same time, stutter-stepping the bio and retreating the ghosts, then spreading all the bio out into wide arcs to maximize damage potential while minimizing the risk of getting hit by AOE. I'm not sure if your average joe could do that though. It's not really that hard when you have 30 EMP's at your fingertips. Notice that I said 14 vikings will take down a couple of colossus, while stutter stepped Bio will take out the Zealots, leaving a few colossus and some stalker/archon ripe for EMP's. Also, if you can play TvZ late-game, you can absolutely play TvP late-game. It's not actually that hard, most Terran players just don't know the right way to go about doing it. 30 emp's available + 14 vikings, wait, so 0 medivacs nor marines or maraudeurs?
70 supply in support units, another ton in Marines and a few Marauders. That would be about 55 marines and 10 marauders, assuming 65 SCV's.
Which, you should actually have less of if you can afford 15 ghosts and 14 vikings, you should have at least a couple of macro orbitals, so that's 4-12 more marines or 2-6 more medivacs right there. Personally, I'd take the medivacs.
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On May 05 2012 04:40 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:32 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:26 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:23 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast. If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise). It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP). Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins. I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ. You don't have to. If all his ranged stuff is shooting at your vikings, they should take out at least two of the colossus anyway if you have 14+, meanwhile his units have less shields, specifically his archons, his zealots all died, and now he has colossus/stalker effectively against marine/marauder/medivac/ghost with full upgrades, hmmm...... You assume that all the EMPs hit the whole army with nothing spared. That's hard to do, in my humble opinion. You also have to take into account that in late-game, Protoss usually has at least 10 gates for insta-replenishing supply that just disappeared. Now if you could control 4 groups at the same time like Bisu does, I'm pretty sure you can take down the colossi while avoiding storms and EMPing at the same time, stutter-stepping the bio and retreating the ghosts, then spreading all the bio out into wide arcs to maximize damage potential while minimizing the risk of getting hit by AOE. I'm not sure if your average joe could do that though. It's not really that hard when you have 30 EMP's at your fingertips. Notice that I said 14 vikings will take down a couple of colossus, while stutter stepped Bio will take out the Zealots, leaving a few colossus and some stalker/archon ripe for EMP's. Also, if you can play TvZ late-game, you can absolutely play TvP late-game. It's not actually that hard, most Terran players just don't know the right way to go about doing it.
I guess that means MMA, Taeja, jjakji, and MVP don't really know the right way of going about it huh.
Also, yes, it wouldn't be that hard if you had 30 EMPs. But what if you don't? Most of the time you don't, unless somehow the Protoss never bothered attacking you until the 20 something minute mark. Vikings are usually shift clicked onto individual colossus according to distance so you can actually focus on your main army not getting destroyed (which I do, because I don't have enough APM to actually control 3+ unit groups at the same time), or your ghosts dying before they get their EMPs out.
But anyways, I'm sure you can do all that and more. I, the average joe on the other hand, struggle to micro 2 control groups while minding my structures, upgrades and unit production.
TvZ on the other hand, you can just put 4 different full medivacs to 4 different zerg bases while paying attention to your siege line and vikings for the brood lords, as well as patrolling with your marines for infestors and corruptors. So much less intensive on the APM that I don't have.
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On May 05 2012 03:50 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 01:33 Ccx55 wrote:On May 05 2012 00:34 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 23:35 Ccx55 wrote:On May 04 2012 23:26 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 23:11 Ccx55 wrote:On May 04 2012 22:29 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 22:22 Ccx55 wrote:On May 04 2012 21:52 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 21:17 Ccx55 wrote:
Well, here we go again with another stupid opinion from Blizzard based off of nothing.
They're saying that they intentionally want the terran to concentrate on mid-game and protoss on late-game.
So what if the protoss wants to push mid-game? Or what if the terran wants to go mass expand? They can go f*ck themselves, then? Is that your opinion on the matter, Blizzard?
Sorry for my language, I'm just really frustrated about how Blizzard is steering this game. I say this as a Zerg player, too. And your opinion is based on something ? And what if terrans want to build broodlords, stupid Blizzard preventing them from that ? ??? Sorry, did you just get off elementary school? What you've just said is completely irrelevant. I said that Blizzard intentionally gave terran the late-game disadvantage. How the hell is that, in ANY way, me asking for Blizzard to give terran brood lords? Your logic is completely flawed. And my opinion is based on Blizzard's slow and incompetent problem-"solving". Nice of you in your righteous anger to miss the point. You said : "So what if the protoss wants to push mid-game? Or what if the terran wants to go mass expand?". This implies that you want nothing to constraint what the races can do and I took it to the absurd, but logical conclusion. The point is that there are things Blizzard decided that races should not be able to do, otherwise there is no point of having 3 races. The races should not just be different in the units they can build, but also how you are playing them in different phases of the game. They are also not saying that they gave terran lategame disadvantage. They said that if terrans do not play correctly in the midgame they will have disadvantage in the lategame. That is completely different from what you are attributing them. Mass expand is a strategy. Brood lord is a unit. Your logic is so obviously flawed, it's difficult to see if you're being sarcastic. Are you suggesting that the only way to make protoss diversified from terran is to weaken them from early-mid pushes? Maybe for Blizzard, considering they don't seem to have any logic on the team at all. Reduce the tank minimum range, remove the overkill of viking rockets, decrease the build time of reactors etc. would diversify and buff terran's late game. Decrease warp gate cooldown, give cannons 7 range, decrease the research time of charge, increase sentry energy regenration etc. would diversify and buff protoss' mid game. To make up for it, give the zerg bonuses like cheaper spine crawlers or faster roaches. See? There are countless ways of fixing the problem. Not only the ones I suggested. The worst possible thing in any strategy game is to limit the player's opportunities and strategies. Somewhat limited works, but not so drastically like TvP. The first Supreme Commander is a prime example of a proper strategy game with fairly diverse factions. So ? Not all strategies should be viable. 5 nexus before gate is not viable and I would say it is a good thing ? This of course has nothing to do with your rant against the Blizzard statement. They were talking balance, you are talking general game design. Are you saying they should completely rework WoL in a minor patch before HoTS ? Because all your proposed changes seem like an easy fix only in your head. Game design != balance Balance = game design Yes, I speak game design. I speak specifically about balance within game design. They are not separate, balance is only a sub-category. And I'm not talking about specific strategies, as you should be well aware of. I get the feeling you're starting to desperately scramble for counter-arguments, seeing as how there aren't many left. An "early game" strategy from protoss such as zealot rush or 4gate is definitely not viable vs a terran who wants to put pressure on. A "mid game" strategy such as 3 gate robo or zealot-archon will not work either vs a 3rax or 2rax pressure. The only hope you have is for the terran to make mistakes. A "late game" strategy such as 1-gate expand is much more viable, and the protoss cannot lose if the first attack is defended succesfully. See, don't see the strategies as individual "5 nexus FE", but rather as mid, early or late strategies. One race should not have the advantage over any other race in this sense. A race does not have to gain advantage in order to be diverse. Blizzard should understand this. I'm not calling this an easy fix. I'm saying it was stupid of Blizzard to construct the game like this in the first place without much thought process behind it. I know that balance is part of game design, but you are not talking balance. Balance (as used in this thread) is very specific issue of winrates. At the broadest it is an issue of winrates in different phases of the game. You are talking about diversity, this does not necessarily have anything to do with balancing the game and until you prove otherwise I see no reason to think it does. So my two questions remain. 1) How is what you talking about in any way related to the Blizzard statement ? In your last sentence you even directly say that you actually have nothing to say to the statement in the OP, you are just in general venting your frustration with SC2 design. 2) Why is this statement of yours "One race should not have the advantage over any other race in this sense." true ? Other than you saying so and how is it related to balance ? It might, but I doubt you have any compelling arguments on the latter and only vague instinctive ones on the former. You've gotten the idea of "balance" wrong. You say balance has only to do with winrates, which is completely false. Consider a scenario for once, where you pit 100 terrans vs 100 protoss. all protoss players opt for late-game play, and 50 terrans opt for 3rax or some other early pressure. If all the terrans with 3rax win, and all the others lose, the win rate will be exactly 50%. Does this mean the game is balanced? Absolutely not. It means protoss have no chance versus early pressure, and terrans have no chance versus late game protoss. See? Win rate percentage is only partly relevant to balance, it is not a representation of balance as a whole. Oh, and, don't put words into my mouth. I said Blizzard are stupid for constructing SC2 in such an imbalanced way in the first place, and that has everything to do with the first statement. I hoped I would not need to explain to you indepth what balance is. In the end it is purely about winrates, but of course there are assumptions about skill of the players we use. So to spell it out for you : It is about winrates between equally skilled players using the best strategy possible in the game. By strategy I mean it in terms of games theory, so 1-rax expo is not a strategy. Vector of pairs (probability, build) is a strategy. As the number of games those two players play goes (limit) to infinity game is balanced if the winrate is 50%. You can use slight approximation, that game is balanced when in n games between equally skilled players each of them wins close to n/2 games if n is big enough. There are other possible ways to look at what balance is, but all of them have to do with winrates in relation to skill of the players. Your statements still have nothing to do with balance. And no your complaints about SC2 that you presented are not about balance, everything you said was about other aspects of game design. Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 01:33 Ccx55 wrote:
I love how you ask me a question, then directly afterwards you state "this might be true, but I doubt you can explain it well"(paraphrased). So you agree that I might be correct, but you believe I cannot explain it well enough? Then why are you arguing about a topic we both agree on?
And please don't tell me you believe certain races should have clear advantages over others. That's like giving Protoss an aimbot hack and terran a speed hack, in counter strike terms. If I want to play macro, I'm practically forced to either play defensive protoss or play a very agressive terran. If I want neither, I will be absolutely crushed by my opponent in most cases. How is this not unfair and limiting my playstyle? Do you not see a difference between "It is certainly true" (your statement) and "It might be true" (my statement). My statement means that it might be true or might not be true and there is no way to tell right now. And no I do not believe that the only problem is that you cannot "explain it well", my point is that you have no evidence or proof to create compelling argument. My point is that you are stating as fact something that you only hypothesize. And I AM saying that I see no inherent problem with races having advantages (which is basically always a fact if you have more than one race anyway). The only problem with those advantages would be if they caused the game to become imabalanced to a significant degree. And there is no evidence that it is the case.
I see you're starting to go "Christian" on me, as they say. You know, assuming information is correct while the opposite is clearly obvious and stating opinions as facts. You're completely incorrect in saying balance is completely about winrate. Winrate simply determines the probability of one race winning over the other. It does not take into account any other variables such as skill gap, natural ability, race advantages and disadvantages, timing of the win etc. If all terran wins end at 6 minutes, and all protoss wins at 50 minutes, then there is clearly a problem in balance. If you can't understand that, then, I'm sorry, but you're a completely lost cause.
No, there's not a problem with a race having slight advantages over the other. These may include strong defensive capabilities or mainly static structures. However, restricting a faction to attack at a certain time period at all times in order to succesfully win a game is a ridiculous idea. Starcraft has its own excuse for this feature, because of the (ludicrously) different races. This, however, is completely incompatible with any e-sports title. Take Counter Strike or DotA, two of the most succesful e-sports of all time as an example. Counter-terrorists have the advantage of the M4A1, with a high accuracy whereas the terrorists have the high damage AK47. This makes the game much more interesting, whilst also not limiting the players to certain strategies or playstyles. Dota plays similarly, no hero is much more powerful than any other but none are identical. All of them have their own special playstyles without having to be predetermined.
Now, we reach the final destination of our argument. The nitpicking. The part where one of the two parts starts to cut up arguments into single words and adressing them rather than the problem. The signal of a weak debater. If you "might" think I'm correct, why so violently argue against me? Conversely, you are arguing partly against yourself in that case.
Also, "you have no evidence or proof to create compelling argument. My point is that you are stating as fact something that you only hypothesize" - this is just an analogy to say "explain it well". You can throw in as many words you want to make yourself feel better, but in the end this all means exactly what I first said. If that doesn't satisfy you, let me say "explain it well with facts" if you're going to nitpick. And, I'm sorry, exactly what am I stating is a fact? The point I'm trying to make is "Blizzard is absolutely right about TvP and they're dipshts for doing it". Considering this is a subjective opinion (and clearly so), I have never stated this as a fact. Again, you put words in my mouth because you cannot argue properly against me.
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