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i think the whole problem is zealots can tank a lot specially under guardian shield effect. ( shield means something but not really that much because the healths got 1 initial armor that makes it super good against marines) While 1 storm can easily wipe out more then 50 percent of bioball's hp. Which makes terran to micro insanely harder because u want to not get forcefield trapped, while kiting with ur bioball and not get hit by storms, while not missing ur emps on zealots+ high templars while vikings stay away from stalker and focus firing colossus. Honestly, if both party hits 200/200 with full upgrades terran is doomed because protoss can reinforce to the battle ground instantly.
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On May 05 2012 05:02 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:01 Froadac wrote:On May 05 2012 04:58 Aeres wrote:
I don't know why people are in such an uproar about this. Blizzard didn't say anything particularly new or groundbreaking; their statement can essentially be boiled down to, "Terran has an advantage versus Protoss in the mid-game, and vice versa in the late game. Therefore, both races should exploit their respective windows of opportunity in order to secure a victory."
... That's it.
Terran players already work under that basic rule, by doing all sorts of harassment and drops and such to slow the Protoss war machine before late-game. That's one of the unique aspects of Terran play, being able to disrupt the opponent's economy in a variety of effective ways before it spirals out of control. Protoss players already work under that basic rule, by mitigating the losses sustained by an actively harassing Terran player in order to steamroll the foe when the time is right. That's one of the unique aspects of Protoss play, being able to construct a cost-efficient brick wall of an army that can smash an opponent who does little to prevent its construction.
Blizzard said nothing new. We already knew all of this. We already do all of this.
So why are people angry? As I read it the problem a lot of terrans have, and i have at times, is that terran may have a 8 minute window to do damage. After that, every minute the game goes on gets hard. In BW it was a different scenario. It was really hard to get the ideal mech composiion on 3 base, and good arbiter use with storm could be used, with difficulty, to defeat it. I think one big problem people haven't takled about enough is how warpgates are frontloaded, which means protoss may have 240 food. Yeah, if they spend money on 20 gateways.
it's not like as t you had to spend money on the rax, ADD ONS, factory (which you strictly don't use exept for makign the starport), armory only for upgrade on engi bay, etc
dude seriously, stop talking, you're only ashaming yourself as this discussion goes on
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On May 05 2012 05:01 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:00 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 05:00 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:58 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 04:56 Mehukannu wrote:On May 05 2012 04:54 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:48 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:46 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 04:43 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
Late game is only favored for Terran at super high levels of play. You losing late game to Terran has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Are you sure? My experience says it's favored for T at masters and above. Lategame is clearly not favored for T at masters level. You might just need to revise your PvT it sounds like. You do know that the majority of Terran players diamond-GM on NA play macro games like this: OK, I'm going to mass Marauder/Medivac and get a third base at 15 minutes with only 50 SCV's and never get ghosts because they were nerfed. Basically like that. Which is completely and utterly terrible. No, I didn't know that. I don't play on NA anymore. Honestly, if you could post up some replays of those NA masters players beating you in the late game it'd be super helpful to all of us. You seem to be the bonjwa of TvP, so please by all means, show us the light. He should also make a guide in the strategy section. Why keep us in the dark all this time?! ;_; i agree lol, i can't even beat high master on kr server,hope he can show me the light . I'd better get to work on that then. Expect lots of references to the recent Day9 Dailies. Did you think Day9 can help on my level ??????? well lastshadow is highmaster in korea, like SeleCT. Not sure why you're against me referencing the Day9 Dailies. i don't get anything use full from Day9 becuase he always overanlysis , and i said i'm a big fan of LS i know about his Vlog as well . -_-
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if terran let protoss hit 200/200 and get all those crucial high templar counts and colossus counts. You should just gg out.
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On May 05 2012 04:52 Snoodles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 05 2012 04:36 Rachnar wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2012 04:31 Rachnar wrote:
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul yeah so are Hightemplar which are way slower then Ghosts and can not cloak or hide like infestors. 1 ghost can't turn a battle around Of course it can. 1 ghost can win the game for Terran just as easily as 1 high templar can win the game for Protoss. 1 ghost can be the reason a Protoss loses a battle right from the start. You use ghosts first before you engage, not as a "turning around battles" back up unit. It nullifies the high templar, which the Protoss need. "What if the Protoss splits their spellcasters, making this 1 ghost ineffective?" Yeah? Well what if the Terran splits their units, making this 1 high templar ineffective? It's the same thing. Splitting marines and marauders is much harder, not the same thing. Any time you move them they clump, you try to stim stutter and they clump, you take one second to aim your vikings and your bio conveniently clumps and yells "SPLASH US". The consequences of not spreading well are much less for protoss.
...What? How many storms do you think a single high templar can use? rofl.
Either all the storms from a high templar are going to be casted fast enough so that you can just pull back for 5 seconds, or you just have to worry about one storm at a time o.O You don't need to split your actual army into sections. Just move it all back.
Also dodging an EMP is *a little bit* harder than dodging a storm 
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On May 05 2012 05:00 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:59 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:56 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:51 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:40 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:32 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:26 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:23 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:04 KanoCoke wrote:
[quote]
If you hadn't noticed, I started my post implying full-on mech TvP. Then again Bio, even with hellion support gets shredded by colossi archon HT with chargelot support and warp-ins, and depending on how good the protoss is with their unit control, they probably wouldn't even lose a colossus (thanks to positional storming, flanking and outmaneuvering).
Reactor hellions are hard to hide, and once discovered by a probe scout or observer, easily countered, and contribute nothing to the battlefield when they aren't facing chargelots or probes. And even if they are indeed facing chargelots, there's more than just chargelots usually, and players either need to have good micro (kiting with at least 2 different control groups, one for the hellions, the other for the MM) or have to retreat and scatter them in different directions to ensure that some survive. They're underused simply because they don't have a good function besides harassment, and because for the supply and cost of one hellion, you can get either an absurdly powerful marauder or two quick marines (in other words, hellions are costly mineral-wise).
It's underused because people prefer more reliable units that will both work as harassment-type units and also can bolster the main army up exponentially when up against a mixed composition (which is usually the case in TvP).
Back to my point regarding mech though, for SC2's TvP, full-mech is currently impossible thanks to immortals and high templars. If mech units got buffed against certain spells and such, or immortals and high templar feedbacks got nerfed, we'd be seeing a LOT of interesting TvP matches. Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins. I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ. You don't have to. If all his ranged stuff is shooting at your vikings, they should take out at least two of the colossus anyway if you have 14+, meanwhile his units have less shields, specifically his archons, his zealots all died, and now he has colossus/stalker effectively against marine/marauder/medivac/ghost with full upgrades, hmmm...... You assume that all the EMPs hit the whole army with nothing spared. That's hard to do, in my humble opinion. You also have to take into account that in late-game, Protoss usually has at least 10 gates for insta-replenishing supply that just disappeared. Now if you could control 4 groups at the same time like Bisu does, I'm pretty sure you can take down the colossi while avoiding storms and EMPing at the same time, stutter-stepping the bio and retreating the ghosts, then spreading all the bio out into wide arcs to maximize damage potential while minimizing the risk of getting hit by AOE. I'm not sure if your average joe could do that though. It's not really that hard when you have 30 EMP's at your fingertips. Notice that I said 14 vikings will take down a couple of colossus, while stutter stepped Bio will take out the Zealots, leaving a few colossus and some stalker/archon ripe for EMP's. Also, if you can play TvZ late-game, you can absolutely play TvP late-game. It's not actually that hard, most Terran players just don't know the right way to go about doing it. I guess that means MMA, Taeja, jjakji, and MVP don't really know the right way of going about it huh. Also, yes, it wouldn't be that hard if you had 30 EMPs. But what if you don't? Most of the time you don't, unless somehow the Protoss never bothered attacking you until the 20 something minute mark. Vikings are usually shift clicked onto individual colossus according to distance so you can actually focus on your main army not getting destroyed (which I do, because I don't have enough APM to actually control 3+ unit groups at the same time), or your ghosts dying before they get their EMPs out. But anyways, I'm sure you can do all that and more. I, the average joe on the other hand, struggle to micro 2 control groups while minding my structures, upgrades and unit production. TvZ on the other hand, you can just put 4 different full medivacs to 4 different zerg bases while paying attention to your siege line and vikings for the brood lords, as well as patrolling with your marines for infestors and corruptors. So much less intensive on the APM that I don't have. See the latest Day9 daily on TvP found here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-456-p1-dselect-vs-vilestate-6122025In this daily, there are two periods described where people die most often: The 8-12 minute mark is where Protoss often die to a Marine/Marauder/Medivac timing, while 13-17 minutes is where Terran players often die to a colossus or Templar timing attack. After those two periods, Terran is favoured. To not die in the 13-17 minute time period, use the scouting information gained from your push, and determine if he's going for HT's, or Colossus, or both. If HT's, then get a ghost academy and pump ghosts. If Colossus, get double starport and pump vikings. If both, get a double starport and a few ghosts. Just make sure to not-die. The funny thing is, I don't have a problem with early and mid-game. I'm talking about late-game. But anyways, go on and ignore me. You said that 'what if protoss attacks before you have critical mass of ghosts and vikings'. I said how to beat that and what time they usually push at. Are we on the same page here?
No we are not. I implied that ghosts would be using their energy for cloaking and EMPs constantly in battle, so the possibility of them having 30 EMPs ready and being able to shoot all of them out (without getting feedbacked in succession by a few HTs as well) during the time you actually face the death ball isn't that high commonly. Unless you keep your ghosts away for the length of time to get them all to max their energy, which would be absolutely retarded, because you have to utilize the ghosts strengths as much as you can whenever they're available.
I guess I should have spelled that out.
Anyway, you're really not helping regarding what to do when it's already the late-game. And to begin with, I only popped up in this thread to laugh at how futile full-mech was on TvP.
So thanks, but no thanks. Also, the people above were being sarcastic if you didn't notice. It probably stemmed from you sounding like a smartass thinking that you know better.
Good day.
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On May 05 2012 05:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:52 Snoodles wrote:On May 05 2012 04:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 05 2012 04:36 Rachnar wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2012 04:31 Rachnar wrote:
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul yeah so are Hightemplar which are way slower then Ghosts and can not cloak or hide like infestors. 1 ghost can't turn a battle around Of course it can. 1 ghost can win the game for Terran just as easily as 1 high templar can win the game for Protoss. 1 ghost can be the reason a Protoss loses a battle right from the start. You use ghosts first before you engage, not as a "turning around battles" back up unit. It nullifies the high templar, which the Protoss need. "What if the Protoss splits their spellcasters, making this 1 ghost ineffective?" Yeah? Well what if the Terran splits their units, making this 1 high templar ineffective? It's the same thing. Splitting marines and marauders is much harder, not the same thing. Any time you move them they clump, you try to stim stutter and they clump, you take one second to aim your vikings and your bio conveniently clumps and yells "SPLASH US". The consequences of not spreading well are much less for protoss. ...What? How many storms do you think a single high templar can use? rofl. Either all the storms from a high templar are going to be casted fast enough so that you can just pull back for 5 seconds, or you just have to worry about one storm at a time o.O You don't need to split your actual army into sections. Just move it all back. Also dodging an EMP is *a little bit* harder than dodging a storm
so moving back vs chargezelots and colossi he? thanks for the advice i'll check into it
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Im not sure i agree with this. Normally i see terrans win/lose with a generic marine maradeur medivac ball vs protoss much harder to get "death ball" as they call it.
What im trying to say is that i rearly see a really mixed, hard to control terran army that consists of ghosts, vikings, helion and then, marine maradeur medivac ball.
Im not sure how ballanced or unbalanced this is, but it certainly seems worth noticing that terrans seem to go the "easy way" when it comes to unit compositions.
Dont forget, that a 1-1-1 is very feared, especially because of the unit mix :D.
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On May 05 2012 05:10 iloveav wrote:
Im not sure i agree with this. Normally i see terrans win/lose with a generic marine maradeur medivac ball vs protoss much harder to get "death ball" as they call it.
What im trying to say is that i rearly see a really mixed, hard to control terran army that consists of ghosts, vikings, helion and then, marine maradeur medivac ball.
Im not sure how ballanced or unbalanced this is, but it certainly seems worth noticing that terrans seem to go the "easy way" when it comes to unit compositions.
Dont forget, that a 1-1-1 is very feared, especially because of the unit mix :D.
what other unit you wish for uss to make?
Thors? Siege tanks? Banshees? BC's? Raven's? Reapers?
those units may be good EARLY vs toss, but are useless late
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It's funny because I'm yet to see Terran use nukes and PF's as their endgame, instead they continuously execute timing pushes that are purely invested in killing their Protoss counterpart rather than banking up their late game and playing a much more positional/economic strategy. This situation reminds me of of the current and past PvZ where Protoss would complain about the Zerg late game being to strong despite playing from behind due to being hindered from their all in attempt.
Terran seem to feel entitled that they should be able to end the game by attacking into a defensively posed Protoss resulting in a much better engagement for the Protoss due to the better arc, surface area for storms, and lack of good EMPs. The sad thing is despite this poor decision of making of such an attack Terran still do win games or at the very least did win games in the past. If Protoss were to attack into a bunch of EMP's, PF's and inferior positioning our army would be crushed with little to no hope of coming back into the game.
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T's late game issues come from the fact that bio is almost as good as anything protoss has at the end of their tech trees, pound for pound. So they invest in a ton of infrastructure to do midgame damage because protoss is relatively underdeveloped, but that infrastructure is ultimately lackluster and doesn't transition well into anything.
If they had balanced the match-up around mech in the first place, we wouldn't have to have this conversation.
That being said, the way they describe the match-ups as fluctuating between offense and defense as a result of asymmetrical balance has always been a part of starcraft strategy. That's not news at all.
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On May 05 2012 05:10 Rachnar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 05 2012 04:52 Snoodles wrote:On May 05 2012 04:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 05 2012 04:36 Rachnar wrote:On May 05 2012 04:35 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2012 04:31 Rachnar wrote:
well as ghost don't have stim, they can't hit and run ya, and just fucked as they are left behind
and if you take a straigth up fight and don't hit and run in tvp lategame, then god save your soul yeah so are Hightemplar which are way slower then Ghosts and can not cloak or hide like infestors. 1 ghost can't turn a battle around Of course it can. 1 ghost can win the game for Terran just as easily as 1 high templar can win the game for Protoss. 1 ghost can be the reason a Protoss loses a battle right from the start. You use ghosts first before you engage, not as a "turning around battles" back up unit. It nullifies the high templar, which the Protoss need. "What if the Protoss splits their spellcasters, making this 1 ghost ineffective?" Yeah? Well what if the Terran splits their units, making this 1 high templar ineffective? It's the same thing. Splitting marines and marauders is much harder, not the same thing. Any time you move them they clump, you try to stim stutter and they clump, you take one second to aim your vikings and your bio conveniently clumps and yells "SPLASH US". The consequences of not spreading well are much less for protoss. ...What? How many storms do you think a single high templar can use? rofl. Either all the storms from a high templar are going to be casted fast enough so that you can just pull back for 5 seconds, or you just have to worry about one storm at a time o.O You don't need to split your actual army into sections. Just move it all back. Also dodging an EMP is *a little bit* harder than dodging a storm so moving back vs chargezelots and colossi he? thanks for the advice i'll check into it
Just refuting your point that 1 ghost can't decide a battle as much as 1 high templar can, which is utterly ridiculous  Ghosts counter Protoss unit compositions easily as much as high templar counter Terran unit compositions.
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On May 05 2012 05:12 Rachnar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:10 iloveav wrote:
Im not sure i agree with this. Normally i see terrans win/lose with a generic marine maradeur medivac ball vs protoss much harder to get "death ball" as they call it.
What im trying to say is that i rearly see a really mixed, hard to control terran army that consists of ghosts, vikings, helion and then, marine maradeur medivac ball.
Im not sure how ballanced or unbalanced this is, but it certainly seems worth noticing that terrans seem to go the "easy way" when it comes to unit compositions.
Dont forget, that a 1-1-1 is very feared, especially because of the unit mix :D. what other unit you wish for uss to make? Thors? Siege tanks? Banshees? BC's? Raven's? Reapers? those units may be good EARLY vs toss, but are useless late
actually they are not useless late, they are useless midgame, if the protoss player knows perfectly what to do to counter.
Thus you do not have the maximum Deathball you could have if you would have gone unharassed.
You think protoss player would play a strategy that is strong in midgame, if there was one, that could both set up for lategame and give an advantage midgame, but there are none except kill move allin strategies. Thats why you see Protoss doing such builds only very rarely.
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Canada226 Posts
Although I think Blizzard has a valid stance on this issue, I think that Terran T3 can be improved to mitigate the late game TvP issue.
Particularly for Thor and/or Battlecruiser, they could have a passive buff (either researchable for cheap cost or innate) that prevents draining of energy (like how ultras can't be fungaled, stunned, or neural parasited). So EMP and feedback would not have effect on Thors and/or Battlecruisers. In this case, feedback would become directed towards caster-based units such as banshees, ghosts, and medivacs .
This would likely force a shift in the unit composition for Protoss and make mech/air mix easier to implement without hindering other matchups. Zerg's neural parasite or fungal would be unchanged by this buff. Then the mid game would be stronger for terran, late game would be stronger for protoss, and very-late game (when T3 composition kicks in) would be fair for both races.
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On May 05 2012 05:20 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:12 Rachnar wrote:On May 05 2012 05:10 iloveav wrote:
Im not sure i agree with this. Normally i see terrans win/lose with a generic marine maradeur medivac ball vs protoss much harder to get "death ball" as they call it.
What im trying to say is that i rearly see a really mixed, hard to control terran army that consists of ghosts, vikings, helion and then, marine maradeur medivac ball.
Im not sure how ballanced or unbalanced this is, but it certainly seems worth noticing that terrans seem to go the "easy way" when it comes to unit compositions.
Dont forget, that a 1-1-1 is very feared, especially because of the unit mix :D. what other unit you wish for uss to make? Thors? Siege tanks? Banshees? BC's? Raven's? Reapers? those units may be good EARLY vs toss, but are useless late actually they are not useless late, they are useless midgame, if the protoss player knows perfectly what to do to counter. Thus you do not have the maximum Deathball you could have if you would have gone unharassed. You think protoss player would play a strategy that is strong in midgame, if there was one, that could both set up for lategame and give an advantage midgame, but there are none except kill move allin strategies. Thats why you see Protoss doing such builds only very rarely.
The double forge build is pretty solid in midgame and set's you up nicely for later stages with fast upgrades, twilight ups and fast templar tech. Plus you can usually take a fast 3rd.
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I just want to be able to use higher tech units than Marines and Marauders. Being pinned on mass infantry when Protoss has three strong AoE options is just silly...
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On May 05 2012 05:25 desarrisc wrote:
Although I think Blizzard has a valid stance on this issue, I think that Terran T3 can be improved to mitigate the late game TvP issue.
Particularly for Thor and/or Battlecruiser, they could have a passive buff (either researchable for cheap cost or innate) that prevents draining of energy (like how ultras can't be fungaled, stunned, or neural parasited). So EMP and feedback would not have effect on Thors and/or Battlecruisers. In this case, feedback would become directed towards caster-based units such as banshees, ghosts, and medivacs .
This would likely force a shift in the unit composition for Protoss and make mech/air mix easier to implement without hindering other matchups. Zerg's neural parasite or fungal would be unchanged by this buff. Then the mid game would be stronger for terran, late game would be stronger for protoss, and very-late game (when T3 composition kicks in) would be fair for both races.
was tried and revoked because it allows terran to all-in with a unbelievable winrate.
Thors are too good in high numbers without any serious weakness lategame (immortals are a non issue the moment ghosts come on the field). Void rays are good on paper but not in really vs. mass thors., chargelots are not good enough either lategame due to splash.
that leaves only carriers (and those are going to be removed in HotS anyway). If may be immortals would become a more solid unit this might be an option)
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On May 04 2012 13:42 MattBarry wrote:
You know, I'm no expert on BW. I played it for a decade casually with no knowledge of a pro-scene. But from what I've read, isn't there a ticking time bomb where Terran has to do damage before Hive in TvZ. What exactly is the difference?
trolling right? :D
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Unfortunately this has turned into a TvP balance whine thread when it should be about Blizzard’s reluctance to make changes. Right or wrong I see their point.. they’ve repeated the same sentiment over and over.. they feel Terran is in a good place and have the most options of the 3 races.. I think they feel like people are not exploiting these options enough.
As a Random Diamond player.. who plays both races against each other often.. obviously at an equal skill level..
I feel PvT in every respect is much much easier than in TvP
But I’m 1 tiny fish in the pond…
However the game has 2 more major additions to go through before we hit sort of a ‘final’ unit compositions like with Broodwar.
Unfortunately you can’t make revisions to 1 race w/o effecting every matchup with that Race.. so the impact of nerfing and buffing goes way beyond just TvP.
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They also said terran is too strong mid-late game ~ cry more terran players?
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EPT
