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On May 05 2012 03:15 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:03 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:55 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 02:53 S_SienZ wrote:On May 05 2012 02:51 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:36 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:32 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:23 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:
What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. . Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be. I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply. It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening. I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes. Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases. But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro. That's odd. I usually win whenever I play on CK against Protoss in the late-game. Are you using carpet EMP's on the Protoss army? That's usually the deciding factor in battles. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that PvT winrate on Cloud Kingdom is at 70%..... He is mid master terran on na with 50% win rate so his enemy not that high you know.... Low master actually, but my point still stands. I always see Pro terran players who lose in the late-game relying far, far too much on Marauders to do their dirty work - which is definitely possible - but you need perfect control to achieve that against storm/colossus, which Terran players just don't have. Instead, I go for Marine/Viking/Medivac/Ghost with few marauders and double starports, TONS of reactors, as well as ship upgrades from the armory, and I win if I defend the counter push after the ten minute timing attack with two medivacs. i do understand the unit composition as well becuase i'm a big fan of ls and do understand marine and ghost is the main DPS for Terran ,but every thing is even hard in high level you know ? you can't emp HT that easily even you have cloack they will use observer / upgrade speed ,So you require more micro than normally to snipe his observer and emp/snipehis HT ,Then i would love to see how to engage and you still got 10+ ghost left in high level play ...
He is focusing on remaxing his army and dealing with the second push. Keeping your Ghosts alive is not a huge issue if you control them well, since they have 100 HP and are a priority for Medivacs to heal. Also, sniping the observer is easier if you keep your vikings close to the front. The range of vikings have close to the same range as the observer vision, which means when you scan, you will like just pick it off without doing anything. Plus you get to see the protoss army.
Cloaked Ghosts + Vikings + Scan = Ghosts that an move more freely and EMP with style.
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People keep citing misinformation/fear of unknown builds.
This idea plagues ladder play/foreign players. If you look at how Koreans play, it's completely the opposite. Thanks to idiot foreign commentators, people have this idea that playing safe is the best way. It's incredible how much a few individuals can influence the entire mindset of the community.
The reality is that there is NO safe build. Every build matches up vs another with an advantage, disadvantage, or possibly fatality.
If you look at how Koreans play, they rarely play a middle of road, safe build that is essentially not advantaged against anything. Instead, they make assumptions based on the map architecture, player history, and basic reads. They then execute a build as cleanly as possible that looks to take advantage of what they can. Sometimes, the build can be adapted based on what they see. NOT ALL builds have ways to adapt to other builds, sometimes you just come out way behind.
Say you have a 40% overall win doing a safe, disadvantaged build. How is that different from doing a build that is 100% win vs some builds, 60-80% against others, and 0-20% against one or two? Guess which one has higher expected value?
So people that whine about not being able to scout, or not knowing exactly what your opponent is doing, you have it wrong. If you don't know whether the T is 2rax/111/CC, YOU NEED TO GAMBLE, JUST LIKE THE T IS GAMBLING. THIS IS WHAT STARCRAFT IS.
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On May 05 2012 03:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:17 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 03:11 Treehead wrote:On May 05 2012 01:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 01:45 Treehead wrote:On May 05 2012 01:16 Dontkillme wrote:
Oh so Blizzard is saying that Terran should end the game at the mid game? So 1 base or 2 base all ins all game longs? WTF. If all Terrans continue to do this, toss will figure out a way to defend our advantageous 2 base or 1 base all ins.... really thoughtful Blizzard. You didn't read what they said. 1. Some size of Colossus/gateway army trades evenly against lategame terran armies. Obviously one colossus and two stalkers will not rip apart a terran lategame army. Obviously a maxed colossus/gateway army has advantages (given a good engagement) - they also cost more to build. Logically, this means that some size of gateway/colossus army trades evenly with a lategame terran army. 2. Your job in the midgame is to make it so that they cannot sustain an army bigger than that in the lategame. Their job is to live long enough to make it to a Colossus/gateway army. Which job is more difficult changes as time progresses, and the current state is not the ultimate answer for the state of the matchup. 3. "Oh, so we have to allin?" is a strawman. That's not what anyone is saying. Though feel free to, if you want, a lot of Terran allins are very, very hard to hold - even at pro level. Stop saying you need to allin. It's ridiculous, and if you watch any pro games at all you'll find instances where a terran lets a protoss get 3 or 4 bases, but still wins the game. 4. "Terran needs to play better to come out on top" is a subjective statement. Up until very, very recently, very good Terrans could allin on 1-2 bases against protoss every match and maintain a very high winrate (some still do, just not every match). This created the perspective that certain protosses were "bad". Now, you see protosses which are "bad" beating top-level terrans. You make the logical conclusion - protoss is easier. However, your assumption here is that your initial assessment was a fair one. Some people are stronger macro players and some are better against allins - it doesn't take a genius to figue out that the allin defender will look better initially but that the macro player will look better once they are both able to hold the allins. You might not know which protosses are good and which are bad as much as you think you do. Moreover, drops and harassment seem just as hard to execute to me (who is a low-level player who plays both terran and protoss) as they are to defend. I seem to be about the same amount behind on my macro when I micro appropriately. Maybe this is just me and I have a "gift" for dropping really well - but I doubt it. Play protoss if you think it's easy. It isn't. 5. This is very recent - someone will figure out more answers in time. Like I said, not all that long ago a well-executed 1-1-1 was near impossible to hold (and it's still hard), and numerous Terran players were able to use the threat of allin-ing to their advantage (even if they didn't actually do it). Terran has won several GSLs since the last time a protoss won the finals (MC back in march - more than a year ago). The current state is not a trend at the top level yet. It's very new and very well may not need fixing (except through trying new strats). Stop making threads about this. There have been several and they all say the same thing. For better or for worse, if Terran engages while in a good concave with adequate numbers of Vikings and 10+ Ghosts that don't die immediately, he's probably going to come out ahead in the engagement. I feel like most Terran players are not taking care of their ghosts and don't get nearly enough of them or vikings, as well as whiffing most of their EMP's. In other words, Terrans are focusing too much on the MM in the late-game and not MGV (medivac ghost viking) You have some analysis. That's great. My point was not that I know what terrans should be doing, though. It was that there is a fundamental and in some cases deliberate misunderstanding of how the matchup is "supposed" to go right now if both sides play standard, and also that there is little or no patience for new disturbances in TvP to get settled. Alej posted a little ways under me, and he said relatively cose to the same thing. In the last three pages, nobody has responded to either of these posts indicating that they know what has been said in them. Maybe this thread is just where good points go to die. Yeah, the matchup is stale-- because of warpgate and how it's implemented. As is, warpgate has less c/d than a gateway takes to warp in a unit, which means there is no reason to have a gateway instead of a warpgate. There is no bad thing about warpgates for Protoss. So naturally, there are a lot of pure gateway timings and all-in's that Protoss can do to take advantage of that. 4gate is the most basic. The problem comes in when at their previous strength, they are completely OP, so naturally Blizzard nerfs the initial T1 gateway units and implements a band-aid unit called a Colossus to help the Protoss in the mid-game against Terran stim timings. All this boxes the matchup into a much more predictable path than the other matchups, since there is so little diversity, which is what I think you're talking about. (It is what you're saying, right?) Should there be? An upgrade should make things better right?
The solution I would prefer is make it so that Warpgates take longer to make units than Gateways, and perhaps limit the amount of units that can be warped in on a single Pylon at one time. To compensate for this nerf, Gateway units are buffed and made more micro-able in some way, and colossus is removed and replaced or reworked to give it some micro potential.
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On May 05 2012 02:17 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:08 neozxa wrote:
The problem is with Terran being designed to cripple the Protoss hard enough on the midgame so that they can have the upper hand later on in the lategame is that it will make the players want to 1 or 2 base all in every game. For a player that greatly prefers macro games compared to gimmicky all ins, I'd say that I definitely do not want that to happen. You don't get to have these kinds of preferences in a strategy game. The "macro game" is a freaking myth to begin with - it was designed to help new RTS players learn the game and understand how RTS economy works and why it is important, but years of repetition have turned it into some sort of a religion. -_- The macro game only happens when both players think they're unable to reliably kill the other guy by exploiting a weakness in what he's doing. If Protoss are consciously making themselves weak in the midgame by doing the Give-Me-Everything build off of 2 or 3 base and Gateway units, then a month or two of relentless aggression will teach them to slow down their timings and tech investment.
This is one of the best posts I've read in a long time. People need to understand what a macro game really is.
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And while we are talking, the EU rebroadcast of the NASL division 2 is live. Sjow has played himself into a nice position. The opposing toss is on templar tech while sjow has 5+ ghosts with alot of energy. Sjow has about 40 supply more 200 vs 160 which means probably 50 more army supply. Sjow even has the update advantage. The protoss uses a warpprism to put the majority of his gates on CD and still SMASHES the terran army because the ghosts could never reach the templar. Half of the zealots died but the storms easily broke the army while chargelot warpins cleaned up the rest. Game over.
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On May 05 2012 02:40 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:35 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:25 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:15 NHL Fever wrote:On May 05 2012 01:44 Fencer710 wrote:
You can if 10+ ghosts and at least 10-20 supply of Bio survives the battle. He takes another 45 seconds at least to rebuild his Colossus, and in the mean time he has only zealots and archons to defend. Ghosts shit on that.
Even if you don't win the battle decisively, you can still say 'I've traded cost-effectively, time to expo!' and expand while he can't because he needs to build more army units. But that never happens, even at pro level, because its not really possible. For ghosts to work, they need to kill templar. They can do this by getting in front and hitting some snipes or emp's before the conflict, but then they die cause they are in front. Or they could be in the army or the back, in which case the army gets stormed before the ghosts are in range. Furthermore, all tvp battles require kiting for terran to have any chance. Ghosts cannot stim and will be left behind and die. I don't think I have EVER seen a battle take place in a game of any significance, where there were 10+ ghosts left over after battle pvt. For sure not since patch. Have you? Link if so. basically this. I've never really seen how you can reliably make ghosts live after an engagement. You can turn templars into AoE massive piles of energy after feedback/storming the living hell out of Terrans. Ghosts? They absorb the first wave of zealot charges and die. You are using your ghost wrong if they are tanking zealots. The protoss player does not control which units the zealots attack, just like the zerg player only suggests which units the zerglings should attack. If your ghosts are getting killed the first wave of zealots, it means you parked the infront of the range 4 charge attack. It would be the same if you parked them in front of a group of roaches and hoped it would work out. So I should have ghosts at the side of my army, EMP/Snipe the templars that are coming from probably 2-3 sides, and stutter step the zealots? I don't know about pros but that seems really prohibitively hard for someone at my skill level when all I feel like Protoss has to do is storm/feed and, a move the zealots. but I don't know Protoss at all. I guess that's my biggest complaint. And I admit it's not the most informed one, but I don't know what Protoss does during engagements that they can mess up on. While as Terran, I feel like if I mess up even one part of my engagement, I'll lose and just get pushed back into my base and die. I need to play better though for sure.
You'll see most high-level Terrans snipe/ EMP the high templar/ Protoss armies before the engagement actually occurs, which is the impetus they need to attack the Protoss army (if the Protoss has no energy and low shields and the Terran chases down the spellcasters, the game is automatically over).
It's just a matter of landing those EMPs ahead of time (so scan the army -> snipe observer if it's there so you can send your cloaked ghosts in -> throw down those EMPs/ snipes on the sentries/ high templar/ archons/ etc). Don't wait until the Protoss chooses to engage you. Keep in mind that you're faster than the Protoss army. Engage on your own terms- after your ghosts have already landed the ideal spells.
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On May 05 2012 03:14 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:11 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. Vultures had spider mines and an insane micro skill cap. Hellions have..... splash damage? :\ Are you complaining about splash damage?
it should have been more good, honestly...
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On May 05 2012 03:22 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:17 Talin wrote:On May 05 2012 02:08 neozxa wrote:
The problem is with Terran being designed to cripple the Protoss hard enough on the midgame so that they can have the upper hand later on in the lategame is that it will make the players want to 1 or 2 base all in every game. For a player that greatly prefers macro games compared to gimmicky all ins, I'd say that I definitely do not want that to happen. You don't get to have these kinds of preferences in a strategy game. The "macro game" is a freaking myth to begin with - it was designed to help new RTS players learn the game and understand how RTS economy works and why it is important, but years of repetition have turned it into some sort of a religion. -_- The macro game only happens when both players think they're unable to reliably kill the other guy by exploiting a weakness in what he's doing. If Protoss are consciously making themselves weak in the midgame by doing the Give-Me-Everything build off of 2 or 3 base and Gateway units, then a month or two of relentless aggression will teach them to slow down their timings and tech investment. This is one of the best posts I've read in a long time. People need to understand what a macro game really is.
In my book, it's any game with 2-3+ expansions per player and at least 17 minutes long, regardless of what actually happens during those minutes. (11/11 proxy rax into mech anyone?  )
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On May 05 2012 03:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:40 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:35 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:25 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:15 NHL Fever wrote:On May 05 2012 01:44 Fencer710 wrote:
You can if 10+ ghosts and at least 10-20 supply of Bio survives the battle. He takes another 45 seconds at least to rebuild his Colossus, and in the mean time he has only zealots and archons to defend. Ghosts shit on that.
Even if you don't win the battle decisively, you can still say 'I've traded cost-effectively, time to expo!' and expand while he can't because he needs to build more army units. But that never happens, even at pro level, because its not really possible. For ghosts to work, they need to kill templar. They can do this by getting in front and hitting some snipes or emp's before the conflict, but then they die cause they are in front. Or they could be in the army or the back, in which case the army gets stormed before the ghosts are in range. Furthermore, all tvp battles require kiting for terran to have any chance. Ghosts cannot stim and will be left behind and die. I don't think I have EVER seen a battle take place in a game of any significance, where there were 10+ ghosts left over after battle pvt. For sure not since patch. Have you? Link if so. basically this. I've never really seen how you can reliably make ghosts live after an engagement. You can turn templars into AoE massive piles of energy after feedback/storming the living hell out of Terrans. Ghosts? They absorb the first wave of zealot charges and die. You are using your ghost wrong if they are tanking zealots. The protoss player does not control which units the zealots attack, just like the zerg player only suggests which units the zerglings should attack. If your ghosts are getting killed the first wave of zealots, it means you parked the infront of the range 4 charge attack. It would be the same if you parked them in front of a group of roaches and hoped it would work out. So I should have ghosts at the side of my army, EMP/Snipe the templars that are coming from probably 2-3 sides, and stutter step the zealots? I don't know about pros but that seems really prohibitively hard for someone at my skill level when all I feel like Protoss has to do is storm/feed and, a move the zealots. but I don't know Protoss at all. I guess that's my biggest complaint. And I admit it's not the most informed one, but I don't know what Protoss does during engagements that they can mess up on. While as Terran, I feel like if I mess up even one part of my engagement, I'll lose and just get pushed back into my base and die. I need to play better though for sure. You'll see most high-level Terrans snipe/ EMP the high templar/ Protoss armies before the engagement actually occurs, which is the impetus they need to attack the Protoss army (if the Protoss has no energy and low shields and the Terran chases down the spellcasters, the game is automatically over). It's just a matter of landing those EMPs ahead of time (so scan the army -> snipe observer if it's there so you can send your cloaked ghosts in -> throw down those EMPs/ snipes on the sentries/ high templar/ archons/ etc). Don't wait until the Protoss chooses to engage you. Keep in mind that you're faster than the Protoss army. Engage on your own terms- after your ghosts have already landed the ideal spells.
Snipe still only can be used on bio but otherwise correct.
I thought this was common knowledge on TL 
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I don't quite get it. Didn't Dustin Browder state once he didn't want races to be OP at different stages of the game and now we get this?
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On May 05 2012 03:26 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 05 2012 02:40 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:35 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:25 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:15 NHL Fever wrote:On May 05 2012 01:44 Fencer710 wrote:
You can if 10+ ghosts and at least 10-20 supply of Bio survives the battle. He takes another 45 seconds at least to rebuild his Colossus, and in the mean time he has only zealots and archons to defend. Ghosts shit on that.
Even if you don't win the battle decisively, you can still say 'I've traded cost-effectively, time to expo!' and expand while he can't because he needs to build more army units. But that never happens, even at pro level, because its not really possible. For ghosts to work, they need to kill templar. They can do this by getting in front and hitting some snipes or emp's before the conflict, but then they die cause they are in front. Or they could be in the army or the back, in which case the army gets stormed before the ghosts are in range. Furthermore, all tvp battles require kiting for terran to have any chance. Ghosts cannot stim and will be left behind and die. I don't think I have EVER seen a battle take place in a game of any significance, where there were 10+ ghosts left over after battle pvt. For sure not since patch. Have you? Link if so. basically this. I've never really seen how you can reliably make ghosts live after an engagement. You can turn templars into AoE massive piles of energy after feedback/storming the living hell out of Terrans. Ghosts? They absorb the first wave of zealot charges and die. You are using your ghost wrong if they are tanking zealots. The protoss player does not control which units the zealots attack, just like the zerg player only suggests which units the zerglings should attack. If your ghosts are getting killed the first wave of zealots, it means you parked the infront of the range 4 charge attack. It would be the same if you parked them in front of a group of roaches and hoped it would work out. So I should have ghosts at the side of my army, EMP/Snipe the templars that are coming from probably 2-3 sides, and stutter step the zealots? I don't know about pros but that seems really prohibitively hard for someone at my skill level when all I feel like Protoss has to do is storm/feed and, a move the zealots. but I don't know Protoss at all. I guess that's my biggest complaint. And I admit it's not the most informed one, but I don't know what Protoss does during engagements that they can mess up on. While as Terran, I feel like if I mess up even one part of my engagement, I'll lose and just get pushed back into my base and die. I need to play better though for sure. You'll see most high-level Terrans snipe/ EMP the high templar/ Protoss armies before the engagement actually occurs, which is the impetus they need to attack the Protoss army (if the Protoss has no energy and low shields and the Terran chases down the spellcasters, the game is automatically over). It's just a matter of landing those EMPs ahead of time (so scan the army -> snipe observer if it's there so you can send your cloaked ghosts in -> throw down those EMPs/ snipes on the sentries/ high templar/ archons/ etc). Don't wait until the Protoss chooses to engage you. Keep in mind that you're faster than the Protoss army. Engage on your own terms- after your ghosts have already landed the ideal spells. Snipe still only can be used on bio but otherwise correct. I thought this was common knowledge on TL
My mistake. Meant generic "snipe" for some of those (as in "kill off") rather than the ghost spell. Wasn't clear.
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On May 05 2012 03:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:15 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 03:03 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:55 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 02:53 S_SienZ wrote:On May 05 2012 02:51 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:36 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:32 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:23 Chaggi wrote:
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Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be. I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply. It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening. I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes. Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases. But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro. That's odd. I usually win whenever I play on CK against Protoss in the late-game. Are you using carpet EMP's on the Protoss army? That's usually the deciding factor in battles. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that PvT winrate on Cloud Kingdom is at 70%..... He is mid master terran on na with 50% win rate so his enemy not that high you know.... Low master actually, but my point still stands. I always see Pro terran players who lose in the late-game relying far, far too much on Marauders to do their dirty work - which is definitely possible - but you need perfect control to achieve that against storm/colossus, which Terran players just don't have. Instead, I go for Marine/Viking/Medivac/Ghost with few marauders and double starports, TONS of reactors, as well as ship upgrades from the armory, and I win if I defend the counter push after the ten minute timing attack with two medivacs. i do understand the unit composition as well becuase i'm a big fan of ls and do understand marine and ghost is the main DPS for Terran ,but every thing is even hard in high level you know ? you can't emp HT that easily even you have cloack they will use observer / upgrade speed ,So you require more micro than normally to snipe his observer and emp/snipehis HT ,Then i would love to see how to engage and you still got 10+ ghost left in high level play ... He is focusing on remaxing his army and dealing with the second push. Keeping your Ghosts alive is not a huge issue if you control them well, since they have 100 HP and are a priority for Medivacs to heal. Also, sniping the observer is easier if you keep your vikings close to the front. The range of vikings have close to the same range as the observer vision, which means when you scan, you will like just pick it off without doing anything. Plus you get to see the protoss army. Cloaked Ghosts + Vikings + Scan = Ghosts that an move more freely and EMP with style.
In korean they always keep their observer with their army so this why it not easy to snipe observer -_-
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On May 05 2012 03:22 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:17 Talin wrote:On May 05 2012 02:08 neozxa wrote:
The problem is with Terran being designed to cripple the Protoss hard enough on the midgame so that they can have the upper hand later on in the lategame is that it will make the players want to 1 or 2 base all in every game. For a player that greatly prefers macro games compared to gimmicky all ins, I'd say that I definitely do not want that to happen. You don't get to have these kinds of preferences in a strategy game. The "macro game" is a freaking myth to begin with - it was designed to help new RTS players learn the game and understand how RTS economy works and why it is important, but years of repetition have turned it into some sort of a religion. -_- The macro game only happens when both players think they're unable to reliably kill the other guy by exploiting a weakness in what he's doing. If Protoss are consciously making themselves weak in the midgame by doing the Give-Me-Everything build off of 2 or 3 base and Gateway units, then a month or two of relentless aggression will teach them to slow down their timings and tech investment. This is one of the best posts I've read in a long time. People need to understand what a macro game really is.
The style all modern P have developed is largely impenetrable. On any map where P can get away with fast 3rd, P can get everything, except for tech. They can get a strong econ, higher unit count, and faster upgrades. The only thing they won't have is the ability to push with colo or defend with templar. But they can bully you early and defend mid with an explosive unit count.
This is kept in check by having quite a number of maps where T can do 1 base play.
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On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds.
Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are cheap to make and easy to make a ton of them fast.
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On May 05 2012 03:31 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:18 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals). While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds. Bio+Hellions+Vikings? My point wasn't that Hellions are some god unit. My point was they are underused, especially at lower levels of play. People just dismiss them as some crap unit, but if you mix them in with bio play you don't have to worry about Chargelot/Archon/HT/DT as much. And who cares if they are easy to kill, so is almost everything else in this game, they are easy to make and easy to make a ton of them fast.
Honestly it would be more effective to add 5-10 reapers into your bio ball than 5 BFH. The hellions would get way ahead and just die to chargelots after singing their shields. Plus, Reapers actually have okay DPS against Zealots, and cost gas, not minerals.
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4713 Posts
On May 05 2012 03:21 architecture wrote:
People keep citing misinformation/fear of unknown builds.
This idea plagues ladder play/foreign players. If you look at how Koreans play, it's completely the opposite. Thanks to idiot foreign commentators, people have this idea that playing safe is the best way. It's incredible how much a few individuals can influence the entire mindset of the community.
The reality is that there is NO safe build. Every build matches up vs another with an advantage, disadvantage, or possibly fatality.
If you look at how Koreans play, they rarely play a middle of road, safe build that is essentially not advantaged against anything. Instead, they make assumptions based on the map architecture, player history, and basic reads. They then execute a build as cleanly as possible that looks to take advantage of what they can. Sometimes, the build can be adapted based on what they see. NOT ALL builds have ways to adapt to other builds, sometimes you just come out way behind.
Say you have a 40% overall win doing a safe, disadvantaged build. How is that different from doing a build that is 100% win vs some builds, 60-80% against others, and 0-20% against one or two? Guess which one has higher expected value?
So people that whine about not being able to scout, or not knowing exactly what your opponent is doing, you have it wrong. If you don't know whether the T is 2rax/111/CC, YOU NEED TO GAMBLE, JUST LIKE THE T IS GAMBLING. THIS IS WHAT STARCRAFT IS.
Except you keep hearing Artosis and Tasteless talk about how people need to find that safe build like in BW.
The fact of the matter is, you also had some risky builds in BW as well, but you had some builds that where safe, and had a relatively high grade of success in transitioning into what you needed, either pressure or macro.
And what you say is absolutely wrong, this is a game of limited information indeed, but it should never be a game of gambling. Gambling removes a lot of the skill factor, you can get weaker players beating better players and other anomalies.
If SC2 is indeed a game of gambling as you say, then it is offtrack, and we have every right to complain, because it would no longer be a game of strategy.
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Well, Terran has no cost-effective counter against broodlords/corruptors/infestors as well...
The reason no-one is complaining about TvZ is precisely that the Terran race has decent timing windows to inflict damage before that.
Blizzard argument is in fact a logical fallacy.
Assuming there's high chance for the Terran to get ahead in the mid-game, in other words a lot of BO extremly strong and either extremly hard to scout or unscoutable, then yeah for sure that would compensate their lategame disadvanatage.
Except you have to proof the existence of these BO before.
Their legitimacy.
Their chances of working depending on the Protoss build.
And this is coming from a Protoss guys...
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On May 05 2012 03:30 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:22 SmileZerg wrote:On May 05 2012 02:17 Talin wrote:On May 05 2012 02:08 neozxa wrote:
The problem is with Terran being designed to cripple the Protoss hard enough on the midgame so that they can have the upper hand later on in the lategame is that it will make the players want to 1 or 2 base all in every game. For a player that greatly prefers macro games compared to gimmicky all ins, I'd say that I definitely do not want that to happen. You don't get to have these kinds of preferences in a strategy game. The "macro game" is a freaking myth to begin with - it was designed to help new RTS players learn the game and understand how RTS economy works and why it is important, but years of repetition have turned it into some sort of a religion. -_- The macro game only happens when both players think they're unable to reliably kill the other guy by exploiting a weakness in what he's doing. If Protoss are consciously making themselves weak in the midgame by doing the Give-Me-Everything build off of 2 or 3 base and Gateway units, then a month or two of relentless aggression will teach them to slow down their timings and tech investment. This is one of the best posts I've read in a long time. People need to understand what a macro game really is. The style all modern P have developed is largely impenetrable. On any map where P can get away with fast 3rd, P can get everything, except for tech. They can get a strong econ, higher unit count, and faster upgrades. The only thing they won't have is the ability to push with colo or defend with templar. But they can bully you early and defend mid with an explosive unit count. This is kept in check by having quite a number of maps where T can do 1 base play.
It's nowhere near impenetrable.
What you do against that is simply take a third base and go for ghosts and upgrades for a timing with +2/xx. If he has a ton of stalkers then that's a lot of gas he won't be spending on Colossus or Templar, good for you! So, you can roll him with MMM and a few ghosts and vikings --just in case--
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On May 05 2012 03:37 SiroKO wrote:
Well, Terran has no cost-effective counter against broodlords/corruptors/infestors as well...
The reason no-one is complaining about TvZ is precisely that the Terran race has decent timing windows to inflict damage before that.
Blizzard argument is in fact a logical fallacy.
Assuming there's high chance for the Terran to get ahead in the mid-game, in other words a lot of BO extremly strong and either extremly hard to scout or unscoutable, then yeah for sure that would compensate their lategame disadvanatage.
Except you have to proof the existence of these BO before.
Their legitimacy.
Their chances of working depending on the Protoss build.
And this is coming from a Protoss guys...
Actually you can beat 10 infestors and 10 broodlords in the late-game with 4 thors, 10 unsieged tanks, and 20 marines in a large arc.
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EPT
