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On May 05 2012 02:53 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:51 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:36 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:32 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:23 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:
What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. . Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be. I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply. It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening. I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes. Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases. But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro. That's odd. I usually win whenever I play on CK against Protoss in the late-game. Are you using carpet EMP's on the Protoss army? That's usually the deciding factor in battles. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that PvT winrate on Cloud Kingdom is at 70%.....
He is mid master terran on na with 50% win rate so his enemy not that high you know....
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On May 05 2012 02:40 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:35 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:25 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:15 NHL Fever wrote:On May 05 2012 01:44 Fencer710 wrote:
You can if 10+ ghosts and at least 10-20 supply of Bio survives the battle. He takes another 45 seconds at least to rebuild his Colossus, and in the mean time he has only zealots and archons to defend. Ghosts shit on that.
Even if you don't win the battle decisively, you can still say 'I've traded cost-effectively, time to expo!' and expand while he can't because he needs to build more army units. But that never happens, even at pro level, because its not really possible. For ghosts to work, they need to kill templar. They can do this by getting in front and hitting some snipes or emp's before the conflict, but then they die cause they are in front. Or they could be in the army or the back, in which case the army gets stormed before the ghosts are in range. Furthermore, all tvp battles require kiting for terran to have any chance. Ghosts cannot stim and will be left behind and die. I don't think I have EVER seen a battle take place in a game of any significance, where there were 10+ ghosts left over after battle pvt. For sure not since patch. Have you? Link if so. basically this. I've never really seen how you can reliably make ghosts live after an engagement. You can turn templars into AoE massive piles of energy after feedback/storming the living hell out of Terrans. Ghosts? They absorb the first wave of zealot charges and die. You are using your ghost wrong if they are tanking zealots. The protoss player does not control which units the zealots attack, just like the zerg player only suggests which units the zerglings should attack. If your ghosts are getting killed the first wave of zealots, it means you parked the infront of the range 4 charge attack. It would be the same if you parked them in front of a group of roaches and hoped it would work out. So I should have ghosts at the side of my army, EMP/Snipe the templars that are coming from probably 2-3 sides, and stutter step the zealots? I don't know about pros but that seems really prohibitively hard for someone at my skill level when all I feel like Protoss has to do is storm/feed and, a move the zealots. but I don't know Protoss at all. I guess that's my biggest complaint. And I admit it's not the most informed one, but I don't know what Protoss does during engagements that they can mess up on. While as Terran, I feel like if I mess up even one part of my engagement, I'll lose and just get pushed back into my base and die. I need to play better though for sure.
I am not the best at PvT, it is my worst MU as well. I am far better at PvZ.
As for Ghosts, I think they are more dependant on the level of map control you have at the time. When you get into he super late game, I think terrans should focus on denying observers and ramping up their production. The protoss wants nothing more than for you to attack into their 200/200 super army, because it is strongest of defense. But they need to set up that army before hand and keep templar in place. If you can get cloak and reasonable map control, should be able to pick off some templar and harrass. Also, nukes suck for protoss. They don't even need to hit, just scare the protoss into moving things. If you are denying those observers, they are really scary.
Also, I have always thought that a single emp into a blob of zealots is worth it. I don't know the exact number, but I think 8-10 sounds good. That is around 480-500 shield damage, which is a lot.
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On May 05 2012 02:53 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:51 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:36 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:32 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:23 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:
What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. . Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be. I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply. It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening. I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes. Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases. But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro. That's odd. I usually win whenever I play on CK against Protoss in the late-game. Are you using carpet EMP's on the Protoss army? That's usually the deciding factor in battles. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that PvT winrate on Cloud Kingdom is at 70%.....
Oh yeah, I also remember 3 colossus timing push by squirtle. I think that 2base colossus pushes must be OP on that map. 
In all seriousness, I think that Terran players are just not playing the MU right. W/L rate is not everything. Something called Metagame....
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It's obvious blizzard are trying to tell us that the "no rush 20 min" strategy you seem to wish for, is not a very good strategy in TvP. I see absolutely no problem with this. I choose terran because it's the race with most aggressive options all game long, and i try to be aggressive all game long. If you don't feel this is the way you wish to play, maybe it is time to change to protoss? Or only mech TvZ / TvT, with no TvP games. I end this post by quoting from the greatest cheerleader comedy of all time (Bring it on): Be aggressive, B-E aggressive!
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LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal).
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Maybe they could buff battlecruisers by removing the energy from them and making Yamato cannon a cooldown of an equivalent length. I really think half the reason we don't see more of them is just because they're so easy to deal with. Removing one of their counters (Feedback) would perhaps change the dynamic a bit so that late game Terran might go Marauder Ghost Raven Battlecruiser Viking or something similar.
Then again I'm just guessing.
Making feedback do less damage on massive would be lovely too. I'm gonna try late game skyterran but I'm gonna EMP my battlecruisers before the battle just to see what happens.
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On May 05 2012 02:55 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:53 S_SienZ wrote:On May 05 2012 02:51 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:36 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:32 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:23 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:
What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. . Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be. I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply. It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening. I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes. Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases. But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro. That's odd. I usually win whenever I play on CK against Protoss in the late-game. Are you using carpet EMP's on the Protoss army? That's usually the deciding factor in battles. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that PvT winrate on Cloud Kingdom is at 70%..... He is mid master terran on na with 50% win rate so his enemy not that high you know....
Low master actually, but my point still stands. I always see Pro terran players who lose in the late-game relying far, far too much on Marauders to do their dirty work - which is definitely possible - but you need perfect control to achieve that against storm/colossus, which Terran players just don't have.
Instead, I go for Marine/Viking/Medivac/Ghost with few marauders and double starports, TONS of reactors, as well as ship upgrades from the armory, and I win if I defend the counter push after the ten minute timing attack with two medivacs.
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I'd love to see Seeker missiles get a range buff, to be honest. Right now it's basically like a kamikaze attack, which is a shame because the raven is a really cool unit with a lot of utility that simply does not get enough love right now. I think auto-turrets are underused for zoning purposes too, when used to the fullest they can basically be a instant building wall to counteract chargelots.
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On May 05 2012 02:59 Opeasy wrote:
It's obvious blizzard are trying to tell us that the "no rush 20 min" strategy you seem to wish for, is not a very good strategy in TvP. I see absolutely no problem with this. I choose terran because it's the race with most aggressive options all game long, and i try to be aggressive all game long. If you don't feel this is the way you wish to play, maybe it is time to change to protoss? Or only mech TvZ / TvT, with no TvP games. I end this post by quoting from the greatest cheerleader comedy of all time (Bring it on): Be aggressive, B-E aggressive!
Actually triple orbital works-- against everything except a 2-3 colossus push due to late starport and only three barracks making units.
Oh, and 3gate voidray, and 3gate blink all-in.
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On May 05 2012 03:03 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:55 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 02:53 S_SienZ wrote:On May 05 2012 02:51 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:36 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:32 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:23 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:
What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. . Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be. I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply. It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening. I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes. Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases. But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro. That's odd. I usually win whenever I play on CK against Protoss in the late-game. Are you using carpet EMP's on the Protoss army? That's usually the deciding factor in battles. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that PvT winrate on Cloud Kingdom is at 70%..... He is mid master terran on na with 50% win rate so his enemy not that high you know.... Low master actually, but my point still stands. I always see Pro terran players who lose in the late-game relying far, far too much on Marauders to do their dirty work - which is definitely possible - but you need perfect control to achieve that against storm/colossus, which Terran players just don't have. Instead, I go for Marine/Viking/Medivac/Ghost with few marauders and double starports, TONS of reactors, as well as ship upgrades from the armory, and I win if I defend the counter push after the ten minute timing attack with two medivacs.
That would be a truely scary army. Mass marine is a good way to cut down on the over all mineral cost for remaxing. Also, 10 rax with reactors is 20 marines every build cycle. That is so many marines on the re-max, which is truely scary. It takes longer for the protoss to replace the units that deal with them efficiently, since HTs have to build up mana to storm.
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On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal).
Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long.
Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game.
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On May 05 2012 01:49 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 01:45 Treehead wrote:On May 05 2012 01:16 Dontkillme wrote:
Oh so Blizzard is saying that Terran should end the game at the mid game? So 1 base or 2 base all ins all game longs? WTF. If all Terrans continue to do this, toss will figure out a way to defend our advantageous 2 base or 1 base all ins.... really thoughtful Blizzard. You didn't read what they said. 1. Some size of Colossus/gateway army trades evenly against lategame terran armies. Obviously one colossus and two stalkers will not rip apart a terran lategame army. Obviously a maxed colossus/gateway army has advantages (given a good engagement) - they also cost more to build. Logically, this means that some size of gateway/colossus army trades evenly with a lategame terran army. 2. Your job in the midgame is to make it so that they cannot sustain an army bigger than that in the lategame. Their job is to live long enough to make it to a Colossus/gateway army. Which job is more difficult changes as time progresses, and the current state is not the ultimate answer for the state of the matchup. 3. "Oh, so we have to allin?" is a strawman. That's not what anyone is saying. Though feel free to, if you want, a lot of Terran allins are very, very hard to hold - even at pro level. Stop saying you need to allin. It's ridiculous, and if you watch any pro games at all you'll find instances where a terran lets a protoss get 3 or 4 bases, but still wins the game. 4. "Terran needs to play better to come out on top" is a subjective statement. Up until very, very recently, very good Terrans could allin on 1-2 bases against protoss every match and maintain a very high winrate (some still do, just not every match). This created the perspective that certain protosses were "bad". Now, you see protosses which are "bad" beating top-level terrans. You make the logical conclusion - protoss is easier. However, your assumption here is that your initial assessment was a fair one. Some people are stronger macro players and some are better against allins - it doesn't take a genius to figue out that the allin defender will look better initially but that the macro player will look better once they are both able to hold the allins. You might not know which protosses are good and which are bad as much as you think you do. Moreover, drops and harassment seem just as hard to execute to me (who is a low-level player who plays both terran and protoss) as they are to defend. I seem to be about the same amount behind on my macro when I micro appropriately. Maybe this is just me and I have a "gift" for dropping really well - but I doubt it. Play protoss if you think it's easy. It isn't. 5. This is very recent - someone will figure out more answers in time. Like I said, not all that long ago a well-executed 1-1-1 was near impossible to hold (and it's still hard), and numerous Terran players were able to use the threat of allin-ing to their advantage (even if they didn't actually do it). Terran has won several GSLs since the last time a protoss won the finals (MC back in march - more than a year ago). The current state is not a trend at the top level yet. It's very new and very well may not need fixing (except through trying new strats). Stop making threads about this. There have been several and they all say the same thing. For better or for worse, if Terran engages while in a good concave with adequate numbers of Vikings and 10+ Ghosts that don't die immediately, he's probably going to come out ahead in the engagement. I feel like most Terran players are not taking care of their ghosts and don't get nearly enough of them or vikings, as well as whiffing most of their EMP's. In other words, Terrans are focusing too much on the MM in the late-game and not MGV (medivac ghost viking)
You have some analysis. That's great. My point was not that I know what terrans should be doing, though. It was that there is a fundamental and in some cases deliberate misunderstanding of how the matchup is "supposed" to go right now if both sides play standard, and also that there is little or no patience for new disturbances in TvP to get settled. Alej posted a little ways under me, and he said relatively cose to the same thing.
In the last three pages, nobody has responded to either of these posts indicating that they know what has been said in them. Maybe this thread is just where good points go to die.
On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
When did this become a battle.net thread? You seriously can't make your points more cogent and understandable than this? You are right - Thors, Ravens and BCs can be feedbacked (/fed back). Is there no way of avoiding this? Is there no way of using this?
I can write the phrase "50 supply of zealots gone in two Seeker Missiles!", and if you didn't play this game Ravens would probably sound good. Stop sounding like you know all the answers and they're obvious and make real points about things.
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On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game.
Vultures had spider mines and an insane micro skill cap.
Hellions have..... splash damage? :\
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On May 05 2012 03:11 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game. Vultures had spider mines and an insane micro skill cap. Hellions have..... splash damage? :\
Are you complaining about splash damage?
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On May 05 2012 03:03 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:55 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 02:53 S_SienZ wrote:On May 05 2012 02:51 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:36 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:32 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:23 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:
What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. . Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be. I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply. It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening. I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes. Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases. But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro. That's odd. I usually win whenever I play on CK against Protoss in the late-game. Are you using carpet EMP's on the Protoss army? That's usually the deciding factor in battles. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that PvT winrate on Cloud Kingdom is at 70%..... He is mid master terran on na with 50% win rate so his enemy not that high you know.... Low master actually, but my point still stands. I always see Pro terran players who lose in the late-game relying far, far too much on Marauders to do their dirty work - which is definitely possible - but you need perfect control to achieve that against storm/colossus, which Terran players just don't have. Instead, I go for Marine/Viking/Medivac/Ghost with few marauders and double starports, TONS of reactors, as well as ship upgrades from the armory, and I win if I defend the counter push after the ten minute timing attack with two medivacs.
i do understand the unit composition as well becuase i'm a big fan of ls and do understand marine and ghost is the main DPS for Terran ,but every thing is even hard in high level you know ? you can't emp HT that easily even you have cloack they will use observer / upgrade speed ,So you require more micro than normally to snipe his observer and emp/snipehis HT ,Then i would love to see how to engage and you still got 10+ ghost left in high level play ...
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I don't really see the problem here, myself. The game is balanced, fun to play from both sides, and fun to watch (or, at least I think so.)
There aren't mandatory unit compositions (Protoss can go robo or templar, but also can choose between gateway unit compositions, archons, DT's, even air, and while Terran almost always goes bio, biomech, banshees, and even pure mech have seen success in the past and are being addressed in HotS,) so the game can be very flexible and difficult to read... I dunno, I like it.
Why complain just because Blizzard told us what we already know?
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On May 05 2012 03:11 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 01:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 01:45 Treehead wrote:On May 05 2012 01:16 Dontkillme wrote:
Oh so Blizzard is saying that Terran should end the game at the mid game? So 1 base or 2 base all ins all game longs? WTF. If all Terrans continue to do this, toss will figure out a way to defend our advantageous 2 base or 1 base all ins.... really thoughtful Blizzard. You didn't read what they said. 1. Some size of Colossus/gateway army trades evenly against lategame terran armies. Obviously one colossus and two stalkers will not rip apart a terran lategame army. Obviously a maxed colossus/gateway army has advantages (given a good engagement) - they also cost more to build. Logically, this means that some size of gateway/colossus army trades evenly with a lategame terran army. 2. Your job in the midgame is to make it so that they cannot sustain an army bigger than that in the lategame. Their job is to live long enough to make it to a Colossus/gateway army. Which job is more difficult changes as time progresses, and the current state is not the ultimate answer for the state of the matchup. 3. "Oh, so we have to allin?" is a strawman. That's not what anyone is saying. Though feel free to, if you want, a lot of Terran allins are very, very hard to hold - even at pro level. Stop saying you need to allin. It's ridiculous, and if you watch any pro games at all you'll find instances where a terran lets a protoss get 3 or 4 bases, but still wins the game. 4. "Terran needs to play better to come out on top" is a subjective statement. Up until very, very recently, very good Terrans could allin on 1-2 bases against protoss every match and maintain a very high winrate (some still do, just not every match). This created the perspective that certain protosses were "bad". Now, you see protosses which are "bad" beating top-level terrans. You make the logical conclusion - protoss is easier. However, your assumption here is that your initial assessment was a fair one. Some people are stronger macro players and some are better against allins - it doesn't take a genius to figue out that the allin defender will look better initially but that the macro player will look better once they are both able to hold the allins. You might not know which protosses are good and which are bad as much as you think you do. Moreover, drops and harassment seem just as hard to execute to me (who is a low-level player who plays both terran and protoss) as they are to defend. I seem to be about the same amount behind on my macro when I micro appropriately. Maybe this is just me and I have a "gift" for dropping really well - but I doubt it. Play protoss if you think it's easy. It isn't. 5. This is very recent - someone will figure out more answers in time. Like I said, not all that long ago a well-executed 1-1-1 was near impossible to hold (and it's still hard), and numerous Terran players were able to use the threat of allin-ing to their advantage (even if they didn't actually do it). Terran has won several GSLs since the last time a protoss won the finals (MC back in march - more than a year ago). The current state is not a trend at the top level yet. It's very new and very well may not need fixing (except through trying new strats). Stop making threads about this. There have been several and they all say the same thing. For better or for worse, if Terran engages while in a good concave with adequate numbers of Vikings and 10+ Ghosts that don't die immediately, he's probably going to come out ahead in the engagement. I feel like most Terran players are not taking care of their ghosts and don't get nearly enough of them or vikings, as well as whiffing most of their EMP's. In other words, Terrans are focusing too much on the MM in the late-game and not MGV (medivac ghost viking) You have some analysis. That's great. My point was not that I know what terrans should be doing, though. It was that there is a fundamental and in some cases deliberate misunderstanding of how the matchup is "supposed" to go right now if both sides play standard, and also that there is little or no patience for new disturbances in TvP to get settled. Alej posted a little ways under me, and he said relatively cose to the same thing. In the last three pages, nobody has responded to either of these posts indicating that they know what has been said in them. Maybe this thread is just where good points go to die.
Yeah, the matchup is stale-- because of warpgate and how it's implemented.
As is, warpgate has less c/d than a gateway takes to warp in a unit, which means there is no reason to have a gateway instead of a warpgate. There is no bad thing about warpgates for Protoss.
So naturally, there are a lot of pure gateway timings and all-in's that Protoss can do to take advantage of that. 4gate is the most basic.
The problem comes in when at their previous strength, they are completely OP, so naturally Blizzard nerfs the initial T1 gateway units and implements a band-aid unit called a Colossus to help the Protoss in the mid-game against Terran stim timings.
All this boxes the matchup into a much more predictable path than the other matchups, since there is so little diversity, which is what I think you're talking about. (It is what you're saying, right?)
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On May 05 2012 03:17 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:11 Treehead wrote:On May 05 2012 01:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 01:45 Treehead wrote:On May 05 2012 01:16 Dontkillme wrote:
Oh so Blizzard is saying that Terran should end the game at the mid game? So 1 base or 2 base all ins all game longs? WTF. If all Terrans continue to do this, toss will figure out a way to defend our advantageous 2 base or 1 base all ins.... really thoughtful Blizzard. You didn't read what they said. 1. Some size of Colossus/gateway army trades evenly against lategame terran armies. Obviously one colossus and two stalkers will not rip apart a terran lategame army. Obviously a maxed colossus/gateway army has advantages (given a good engagement) - they also cost more to build. Logically, this means that some size of gateway/colossus army trades evenly with a lategame terran army. 2. Your job in the midgame is to make it so that they cannot sustain an army bigger than that in the lategame. Their job is to live long enough to make it to a Colossus/gateway army. Which job is more difficult changes as time progresses, and the current state is not the ultimate answer for the state of the matchup. 3. "Oh, so we have to allin?" is a strawman. That's not what anyone is saying. Though feel free to, if you want, a lot of Terran allins are very, very hard to hold - even at pro level. Stop saying you need to allin. It's ridiculous, and if you watch any pro games at all you'll find instances where a terran lets a protoss get 3 or 4 bases, but still wins the game. 4. "Terran needs to play better to come out on top" is a subjective statement. Up until very, very recently, very good Terrans could allin on 1-2 bases against protoss every match and maintain a very high winrate (some still do, just not every match). This created the perspective that certain protosses were "bad". Now, you see protosses which are "bad" beating top-level terrans. You make the logical conclusion - protoss is easier. However, your assumption here is that your initial assessment was a fair one. Some people are stronger macro players and some are better against allins - it doesn't take a genius to figue out that the allin defender will look better initially but that the macro player will look better once they are both able to hold the allins. You might not know which protosses are good and which are bad as much as you think you do. Moreover, drops and harassment seem just as hard to execute to me (who is a low-level player who plays both terran and protoss) as they are to defend. I seem to be about the same amount behind on my macro when I micro appropriately. Maybe this is just me and I have a "gift" for dropping really well - but I doubt it. Play protoss if you think it's easy. It isn't. 5. This is very recent - someone will figure out more answers in time. Like I said, not all that long ago a well-executed 1-1-1 was near impossible to hold (and it's still hard), and numerous Terran players were able to use the threat of allin-ing to their advantage (even if they didn't actually do it). Terran has won several GSLs since the last time a protoss won the finals (MC back in march - more than a year ago). The current state is not a trend at the top level yet. It's very new and very well may not need fixing (except through trying new strats). Stop making threads about this. There have been several and they all say the same thing. For better or for worse, if Terran engages while in a good concave with adequate numbers of Vikings and 10+ Ghosts that don't die immediately, he's probably going to come out ahead in the engagement. I feel like most Terran players are not taking care of their ghosts and don't get nearly enough of them or vikings, as well as whiffing most of their EMP's. In other words, Terrans are focusing too much on the MM in the late-game and not MGV (medivac ghost viking) You have some analysis. That's great. My point was not that I know what terrans should be doing, though. It was that there is a fundamental and in some cases deliberate misunderstanding of how the matchup is "supposed" to go right now if both sides play standard, and also that there is little or no patience for new disturbances in TvP to get settled. Alej posted a little ways under me, and he said relatively cose to the same thing. In the last three pages, nobody has responded to either of these posts indicating that they know what has been said in them. Maybe this thread is just where good points go to die. Yeah, the matchup is stale-- because of warpgate and how it's implemented. As is, warpgate has less c/d than a gateway takes to warp in a unit, which means there is no reason to have a gateway instead of a warpgate. There is no bad thing about warpgates for Protoss. So naturally, there are a lot of pure gateway timings and all-in's that Protoss can do to take advantage of that. 4gate is the most basic. The problem comes in when at their previous strength, they are completely OP, so naturally Blizzard nerfs the initial T1 gateway units and implements a band-aid unit called a Colossus to help the Protoss in the mid-game against Terran stim timings. All this boxes the matchup into a much more predictable path than the other matchups, since there is so little diversity, which is what I think you're talking about. (It is what you're saying, right?)
Should there be? An upgrade should make things better right?
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On May 05 2012 03:09 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:00 KanoCoke wrote:
LOL Mech in TvP.
Raven -> feedbacked
Battlecruiser -> feedbacked
Thor -> feedbacked
Tanks -> immortal'd
Vikings -> stormed
Hellions -> lol.
I'd be ok if Thors and Battlecruisers took less damage from feedbacks. They take so long to build and take a ton of resources and space, then suddenly they just disappear due to a feedback and a few hits. I'd also be ok if the immortals didn't do absurd amounts of damage to mech in general.
I just really want to see sky/mech actually being used in TvP for once and not failing horribly due to just two units (the high templar and the immortal). Hellions are actually pretty good. Its funny you don't even acknowledge them. They are LURKERS that are super fast and don't have to burrow. Enough of them makes zealots completely useless, and thats not even mentioning their ability to harass all game long. Reminds me of Vultures in BW honestly, super underused/underappreciated unit. That eventually became thee most cost effective unit in the game.
That's the thing, hellions only work on mass zealots and probes. Sure you can attempt to drop on a mineral line, but any Protoss worth mentioning has HTs, cannon and / or ground units to immediately defend against it. Also, like the vultures, they're pretty easy to kill, and in SC2, much easier (thanks to colossi and immortals).
While everything in your mech army that has MP gets feedbacked all to hell and taken down quickly by immortals, colossi and stalkers, the hellions can't really do much except attempt run-bys or drops, or try to kite zealots, then stop when you realise that your main army disappeared in 10 seconds.
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On May 05 2012 03:15 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:03 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:55 nOondn wrote:On May 05 2012 02:53 S_SienZ wrote:On May 05 2012 02:51 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:36 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:32 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2012 02:23 Chaggi wrote:On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:
What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. . Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be. I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply. It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening. I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes. Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases. But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro. That's odd. I usually win whenever I play on CK against Protoss in the late-game. Are you using carpet EMP's on the Protoss army? That's usually the deciding factor in battles. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that PvT winrate on Cloud Kingdom is at 70%..... He is mid master terran on na with 50% win rate so his enemy not that high you know.... Low master actually, but my point still stands. I always see Pro terran players who lose in the late-game relying far, far too much on Marauders to do their dirty work - which is definitely possible - but you need perfect control to achieve that against storm/colossus, which Terran players just don't have. Instead, I go for Marine/Viking/Medivac/Ghost with few marauders and double starports, TONS of reactors, as well as ship upgrades from the armory, and I win if I defend the counter push after the ten minute timing attack with two medivacs. i do understand the unit composition as well becuase i'm a big fan of ls and do understand marine and ghost is the main DPS for Terran ,but every thing is even hard in high level you know ? you can't emp HT that easily even you have cloack they will use observer / upgrade speed ,So you require more micro than normally to snipe his observer and emp/snipehis HT ,Then i would love to see how to engage and you still got 10+ ghost left in high level play ...
You don't actually have to snipe the obs, mostly you just need to get off some good EMP's similar to how Protoss needs a couple good storms to win an engagement decisively.
Also, obs speed doesn't increase the obs HP directly or add any sort of 'dodge' attribute. You can still snipe it with a scan and some vikings.
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EPT
