On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote: What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. .
Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be.
Pretty much. Though, Terran is much better in the late-game than people make it out to be. The recent CC first build from LastShadow is amazing in TvP. Especially since if you scout him going for a fast third or no tech you can literally get a 7 minute third base with delayed upgrades and starport and still be perfectly fine in the late-game because Terran is just so robust.
On May 05 2012 01:56 Djagulingu wrote: Unless all races have equal chances in all stages of the game
That is never going to happen unless there is only one race. And even with just one race in the game, there might be dominant strategies that force the game to play out one way or the other.
Coming from BW, I know that it is not "never going to happen". TvP is P favored in BW as well, but comparing BW TvP with SC2 counterpart, SC2 TvP makes BW TvP look more balanced than SC2 ZvZ.
On May 05 2012 01:44 Fencer710 wrote: You can if 10+ ghosts and at least 10-20 supply of Bio survives the battle. He takes another 45 seconds at least to rebuild his Colossus, and in the mean time he has only zealots and archons to defend. Ghosts shit on that.
Even if you don't win the battle decisively, you can still say 'I've traded cost-effectively, time to expo!' and expand while he can't because he needs to build more army units.
But that never happens, even at pro level, because its not really possible. For ghosts to work, they need to kill templar. They can do this by getting in front and hitting some snipes or emp's before the conflict, but then they die cause they are in front. Or they could be in the army or the back, in which case the army gets stormed before the ghosts are in range. Furthermore, all tvp battles require kiting for terran to have any chance. Ghosts cannot stim and will be left behind and die.
I don't think I have EVER seen a battle take place in a game of any significance, where there were 10+ ghosts left over after battle pvt. For sure not since patch. Have you? Link if so.
basically this. I've never really seen how you can reliably make ghosts live after an engagement. You can turn templars into AoE massive piles of energy after feedback/storming the living hell out of Terrans. Ghosts? They absorb the first wave of zealot charges and die.
You are using your ghost wrong if they are tanking zealots. The protoss player does not control which units the zealots attack, just like the zerg player only suggests which units the zerglings should attack. If your ghosts are getting killed the first wave of zealots, it means you parked the infront of the range 4 charge attack. It would be the same if you parked them in front of a group of roaches and hoped it would work out.
On May 05 2012 00:53 HadeCiao wrote: Blizzard is doing their best to improve the game for us (because they want to make money in the first place not because of you). They have dedicated balance designers and are observing each and every tournement considering everything professionaly with their unique possibilties.
Most of your unqualified and flaming comments are embarrsing and a shame for the TL community.
You realize that including Beta, they've had over 2 years to balance this game?
On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote: What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. .
Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be.
I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply.
It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening.
I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes.
On May 05 2012 01:44 Fencer710 wrote: You can if 10+ ghosts and at least 10-20 supply of Bio survives the battle. He takes another 45 seconds at least to rebuild his Colossus, and in the mean time he has only zealots and archons to defend. Ghosts shit on that.
Even if you don't win the battle decisively, you can still say 'I've traded cost-effectively, time to expo!' and expand while he can't because he needs to build more army units.
But that never happens, even at pro level, because its not really possible. For ghosts to work, they need to kill templar. They can do this by getting in front and hitting some snipes or emp's before the conflict, but then they die cause they are in front. Or they could be in the army or the back, in which case the army gets stormed before the ghosts are in range. Furthermore, all tvp battles require kiting for terran to have any chance. Ghosts cannot stim and will be left behind and die.
I don't think I have EVER seen a battle take place in a game of any significance, where there were 10+ ghosts left over after battle pvt. For sure not since patch. Have you? Link if so.
basically this. I've never really seen how you can reliably make ghosts live after an engagement. You can turn templars into AoE massive piles of energy after feedback/storming the living hell out of Terrans. Ghosts? They absorb the first wave of zealot charges and die.
You are using your ghost wrong if they are tanking zealots. The protoss player does not control which units the zealots attack, just like the zerg player only suggests which units the zerglings should attack. If your ghosts are getting killed the first wave of zealots, it means you parked the infront of the range 4 charge attack. It would be the same if you parked them in front of a group of roaches and hoped it would work out.
So I should have ghosts at the side of my army, EMP/Snipe the templars that are coming from probably 2-3 sides, and stutter step the zealots? I don't know about pros but that seems really prohibitively hard for someone at my skill level when all I feel like Protoss has to do is storm/feed and, a move the zealots. but I don't know Protoss at all.
I guess that's my biggest complaint. And I admit it's not the most informed one, but I don't know what Protoss does during engagements that they can mess up on. While as Terran, I feel like if I mess up even one part of my engagement, I'll lose and just get pushed back into my base and die. I need to play better though for sure.
There's a reason parting has a 100% winrate in 25+ min games. Honestly, I don't know how you fix it. Terran does have the advantage early on, but if they can't kill the toss before late game, it's pretty damn impossible to win for terran.
Terran needs something more viable than MMM late-game, that's for sure.
Perhaps a buff to raven or BC just to make massing them viable for one reason or another (bonus damage HS vs mech? faster HS?). In addition to that nerf the marauder, it's the dumbest fucking unit ever, even as a Terran player I hate using marauder in TvP/TvZ/TvT.
For protoss, it feels like, especially watching Squirtle, that the deathball style of play is too strong, also zealot warp-ins are totally broken late-game, with full upgrades it takes longer to kill 3 zealots than an ultralisk, and they do way more damage/can move around better as well.
From a viewer's perspective, I hate watching bioballs late-game, so please blizzard make sky Terran more viable in TvP, then (like the phoenix range buff vs mutalisk flocks is so fun to watch, and there's tons of micro potential)
If I have any problem with the TvP matchup, it is the fact that Terran doesn't want to charge into a Protoss force for fear of Storms and force fields while Protoss doesn't want to charge into a Terran force for fear of getting kited and not being able to use Storms or force fields, which ends up encouraging passivity. But this is a gameplay concern; balance-wise, all signs point to the matchup finally being balanced, which is comforting after a long period of Terran supremacy.
I think Blizzard just point out that terran had to take an advantage during the early-mid game which never implies that you need to kill your opponent. The option might be :
1° Try a timing push to deal substantial damages to your opponent and slow him in his research. A good example might be the first game of MKP against SK_MC at the MLG 2012 on entombed valley
2° Take expansion (eventually hidden) faster than the protoss to have a substantial economic advantage. Using siege tank to hold position and take map control might be a solution or allways going outside your base with your army to get the control of the map (i think it is possible to do that cause early game if the protoss is not on a ramp the ff are a lot more difficult to do or at least are less efficient) the second game of IM_MVP against TL_hero is a good example of how MVP take advantage of this hidden expansion by taking control of the map. That is not only a question of luck as some people can think, because he put a pressure (without commit into an attack) that make hero adopt a defensive playstile which does not make him in position to scout this expansion. We can see that the late game is slightly in favor of the protoss due to the aoe damage but the economical lead allows IM_MVP to take the lead even if all his trade were not efficient.
Finally to people who whine about a potential imbalanced ot who are enable to exploit their race strenght you are free to change race as soon as you want. True terran will not surrender, will not beg for pity, they will just stand and fight ^_^ This last statement is a bit provocative and exagerate on purpose so don't land me insult i was just chilling but common guys we have to find strats to deal with strength of other races that the beauty of the game
On May 05 2012 01:48 Destructicon wrote: I'm not going to use LS or SeleCT for reference points on how to properly play TvP, with all do respect to the players and their accomplishments, if they where that good they would be in the GSL, as is they haven't even won any notable tournaments lately. The best reference point are players from the GSL and GSTL, and the international tournaments with lots of Koreans.
You sir are wrong, really wrong. Saying oh what GSL and GSTL players do matters is so uterly false words can not describe because thats less then 1% of the people who play the game. Also SeleCT hasn't won a major tournament? Are you joking or trolling? 2nd an third at MLGs, and Azus Rog are huge accomplishments so please don't go making false statements like that anymore it just lessens your argument even more when you put false statements into it. Also pretty sure Stephano (I know he will next season) has never been in a GSL/GSTL, neither has DeMuslim, or Mana and all three of those players are quite amazing and have taken down GSL level competition. One dosn't need to compete or be at GSL level in order to show how to properly play a matchup so get off your elitist horse and go back out the door you came through.
(Yes Stephano isn't P or T but he fits in quite well into the argument here)
On May 04 2012 13:48 Icekommander wrote: I don't see the issue. The races are different, at a fight happens at any given point at time during a game between two equally skilled players, one will win more often than the other. The races actually can't be equally balanced at every point in the game due to how unit interactions work. You might as well complain that it isn't fair or right that in a TvT a meching Terran has an advantage in the late game over a bio terran. Your bio ball didn't do enough harassment, or you didn't take over the map properly. If you feel that Mech is better or suits your style better you should switch - same thing with Terran and Protoss. The races are different, and it is something you have to live with.
Wise words. People really forget how different compositions have differenet advantages and they are not suposed to be used in the same way. I believe the korean style of play and their speed and precision really makes bio shine and accually work. Too bad that the style doesnt suit less skilled players who can't capitalise on THAT so much. At lower levels mech or similar compositions could and should work if explored but there have been a couple of stoping points during the evolution of Starcraft that didn't allow this:
First point: Early game history: Small maps and much stronger terran pushes. Why play anything BUT bio? It was easy and super effective and not alot of incentive was there for changing it. Second point: All the pro players for the above reasons were and are using bio, so there is noone to copy builds from, making mech obsolete even on lower levels.
Only recently have we seen alot of different styles that use mechanical units the whole game or for pressure/timings and I think we will only see more of those. It is only natural that a more complete, twice as expensive army made for killing low hp bunched units can deal with a bunch of low hp bunched up infantry which is the case in late game PvT. If Blizzard had gone to a different path by nerfing things like marines marauders and healing on medivacs waaaay back when they should have, we would be seeing nothing but mech (and no need for nerfs like tank damage etc) and only a couple of really good players could use bio to the full extent to make it viable.
On May 05 2012 01:44 Fencer710 wrote: You can if 10+ ghosts and at least 10-20 supply of Bio survives the battle. He takes another 45 seconds at least to rebuild his Colossus, and in the mean time he has only zealots and archons to defend. Ghosts shit on that.
Even if you don't win the battle decisively, you can still say 'I've traded cost-effectively, time to expo!' and expand while he can't because he needs to build more army units.
But that never happens, even at pro level, because its not really possible. For ghosts to work, they need to kill templar. They can do this by getting in front and hitting some snipes or emp's before the conflict, but then they die cause they are in front. Or they could be in the army or the back, in which case the army gets stormed before the ghosts are in range. Furthermore, all tvp battles require kiting for terran to have any chance. Ghosts cannot stim and will be left behind and die.
I don't think I have EVER seen a battle take place in a game of any significance, where there were 10+ ghosts left over after battle pvt. For sure not since patch. Have you? Link if so.
basically this. I've never really seen how you can reliably make ghosts live after an engagement. You can turn templars into AoE massive piles of energy after feedback/storming the living hell out of Terrans. Ghosts? They absorb the first wave of zealot charges and die.
You are using your ghost wrong if they are tanking zealots. The protoss player does not control which units the zealots attack, just like the zerg player only suggests which units the zerglings should attack. If your ghosts are getting killed the first wave of zealots, it means you parked the infront of the range 4 charge attack. It would be the same if you parked them in front of a group of roaches and hoped it would work out.
So I should have ghosts at the side of my army, EMP/Snipe the templars that are coming from probably 2-3 sides, and stutter step the zealots? I don't know about pros but that seems really prohibitively hard for someone at my skill level when all I feel like Protoss has to do is storm/feed and, a move the zealots. but I don't know Protoss at all.
I guess that's my biggest complaint. And I admit it's not the most informed one, but I don't know what Protoss does during engagements that they can mess up on. While as Terran, I feel like if I mess up even one part of my engagement, I'll lose and just get pushed back into my base and die. I need to play better though for sure.
Ghosts in front, vikings behind that, and bio behind that, and medivacs behind bio so they don't die.
There isn't that much distance between the Ghosts and Bio ball, so you can simply stim up and retreat the ghosts. You're already a-moving, so you simply:
Select ghosts. Right click back. Stim bio to kill chargelots before they kill more than one or two ghosts. SeleCT did something like this in one of the last battles of the most recent TvP day9 daily found here.
On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote: What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. .
Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be.
I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply.
It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening.
I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes.
Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases.
But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro.
On May 05 2012 02:43 InoyouS2 wrote: Terran needs something more viable than MMM late-game, that's for sure.
Perhaps a buff to raven or BC just to make massing them viable for one reason or another (bonus damage HS vs mech? faster HS?). In addition to that nerf the marauder, it's the dumbest fucking unit ever, even as a Terran player I hate using marauder in TvP/TvZ/TvT.
For protoss, it feels like, especially watching Squirtle, that the deathball style of play is too strong, also zealot warp-ins are totally broken late-game, with full upgrades it takes longer to kill 3 zealots than an ultralisk, and they do way more damage/can move around better as well.
From a viewer's perspective, I hate watching bioballs late-game, so please blizzard make sky Terran more viable in TvP, then (like the phoenix range buff vs mutalisk flocks is so fun to watch, and there's tons of micro potential)
I think that increasing HSM range to 7 would be a good buff for that. As for BC's and Banshees, decrease the build time on the BC by 10 or more seconds, and make it get +2 damage per attack upgrade instead of only +1. I feel like this would help a ton in the late game and for general viability of the unit.
Also, feedback does too much damage. Half or 1/4th of damage on massive, please.
On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote: What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. .
Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be.
I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply.
It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening.
I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes.
Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases.
But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro.
That's odd. I usually win whenever I play on CK against Protoss in the late-game. Are you using carpet EMP's on the Protoss army? That's usually the deciding factor in battles.
On May 05 2012 01:44 Fencer710 wrote: You can if 10+ ghosts and at least 10-20 supply of Bio survives the battle. He takes another 45 seconds at least to rebuild his Colossus, and in the mean time he has only zealots and archons to defend. Ghosts shit on that.
Even if you don't win the battle decisively, you can still say 'I've traded cost-effectively, time to expo!' and expand while he can't because he needs to build more army units.
But that never happens, even at pro level, because its not really possible. For ghosts to work, they need to kill templar. They can do this by getting in front and hitting some snipes or emp's before the conflict, but then they die cause they are in front. Or they could be in the army or the back, in which case the army gets stormed before the ghosts are in range. Furthermore, all tvp battles require kiting for terran to have any chance. Ghosts cannot stim and will be left behind and die.
I don't think I have EVER seen a battle take place in a game of any significance, where there were 10+ ghosts left over after battle pvt. For sure not since patch. Have you? Link if so.
i would love to see too , or it just his theorycraft .... -_-
On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote: What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. .
Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be.
I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply.
It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening.
I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes.
Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases.
But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro.
That's odd. I usually win whenever I play on CK against Protoss in the late-game. Are you using carpet EMP's on the Protoss army? That's usually the deciding factor in battles.
Blizzard themselves acknowledged that PvT winrate on Cloud Kingdom is at 70%.....
On May 05 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote: What is with all the hate that terrans have for two base timing pushes? They don't all need to be all-ins. They are pretty much standard in PvZ and TvZ in some way or another. It's not like you can leave the zerg alone all game and hope it works out. As a protoss, I fear all two base timing pushes(if the terran is smart and snipes my observer). They are the main thing that makes me stop boosting my upgrades and boosting my warpgates. Even if you never attack, the protoss is going to have to respect your army and that time can be use to take a third before them. .
Most of the big 2 base timing pushes are already figured out and Protoss do reasonably well to deflect them. It's about doing enough damage with those timings that Terrans can't really do now. I don't mind it, I just think it's stupid that Terrans have to basically kill you or hope you make a huge mistake past 3-4 bases. Getting there is a challenge sure, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be.
I don't know if that is as true as people say it is. Any two base timing push is scary if the terran works to deny information and keep the protoss on their toes. If the protoss cannot tell if you are going All-in or expanding to a third, they can't take their own third, unless they do it blindly. I don't know the exact timing, but I think it is around 100-120 supply.
It is like in PvZ, I know that I need to put on pressure early on. Depending on the build I am doing, I need to hit at the 9 or 12 minute mark. If I go later than that, I am in a lot of trouble and will likely lose the game. I am not forced to do an all-in, but the option is there if I see an opening.
I don't know, I know I don't play the match up properly and it's by far my worst. All I know is when I play Protoss, I feel like I have to be just about perfect in how I play, have drops in place and make sure everything hits or else I'll trade super ineffectively and die. I just don't know how to punish a Protoss after he makes similar mistakes.
Man I was really suprised at how reasonable, and not whiney your post was, then I saw you were from South Korea ;-P I think the some current maps are really protoss favored right now. Cloud Kingdom should be vetoed by every terran, since it is basiclly 3 nearly drop proof bases. Also the rocks on the second ramp are just silly and should be removed. Protoss does not need a natural that can be defended with 2 FFs. I even question having ramps for 3rd bases.
But I don't think enough terrans bring the Fear of Terran by giving away to much information. I see a lot of my opponents going 1 rax FE, but building the cc on the low ground. It really misses the true power of that build, which is that the protoss can't really know what your are doing if you wall in. The terrans I fear most are the ones who will take a gas but not mine from it, all for the sole purpose of keeping me guessing. There is a huge difference between defending a 1/1/1 and 1 gate FE into 4 rax. This is what make MKP(beyond his amazing micro), is the fact that you have no idea what he is going to do. That is far more powerful against any protoss than crazy macro.
Ha. I can be whiny but I guess living in Korea makes me not so much now. I guess I realize that I don't know that much about Protoss as compared to my other matchups and I have pretty subpar army control.
It doesn't mean that I don't regularly try to BM Protoss's on the Korean server by spamming English to them :D
EPT
but common guys we have to find strats to deal with strength of other races that the beauty of the game 
