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On April 11 2012 09:25 EnderSword wrote:
So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
Is this true? I thought the matchmaking worked differently.
First days in a league arenot so much a moment where higher players play against much lower player. higher players get many more points early in the season, not because of that, but because when they are paired against players of their level (they are paired with MMR only), what is compared for giving points is rank vs MMR, and therefore their opponent appears favored, as you said, which in turn gives them many points when they win, and very little when they lose. But no chance I'll meet stephano on ladder, even if I am master
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On April 11 2012 15:54 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 09:25 EnderSword wrote:
So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
Is this true? I thought the matchmaking worked differently. First days in a league arenot so much a moment where higher players play against much lower player. higher players get many more points early in the season, not because of that, but because when they are paired against players of their level (they are paired with MMR only), what is compared for giving points is rank vs MMR, and therefore their opponent appears favored, as you said, which in turn gives them many points when they win, and very little when they lose. But no chance I'll meet stephano on ladder, even if I am master
It is not true. Matchmaking works differently.
I really don't understand why someone would open a thread to explain their incorrect theory about how the ladder works when there is already a really good thread with accurate information that Excalibur_Z put a huge amount of effort into researching and writing.
Anyone who is interested in how the matchmaking system and point rewards for wins and losses work should be congregating over here -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273. The only change that there is reason to believe exists between last season and this season is that the spread in the "two players are matched" graphic is now somewhat wider than it used to be.
Edit: Misspelled "accurate".
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On April 11 2012 09:39 Czech M8 wrote:
This is going to ruin ladder games. I have been on a loosing streak because I'm playing people who are way out of my league. This is stupid how they thought this will "fix" rank problems.
Well, the reason you are being matched with better people is probably because the ladder wants to promote you!
Ex: I am gold, ive been playing mostly gold whole season, last 2 weeks I almost only played Plat, they are mostly better then me, btu I am starting to win about 50% of those matches.
I know now, that its a 50/50 chance I be gold or plat.
So, if you want to be promoted, you must prove you can beat better players? Its nto that strange is it?
If you lose all of them though, youl get matched with lower ranked players again.
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On April 11 2012 15:54 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 09:25 EnderSword wrote:
So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
Is this true? I thought the matchmaking worked differently. First days in a league arenot so much a moment where higher players play against much lower player. higher players get many more points early in the season, not because of that, but because when they are paired against players of their level (they are paired with MMR only), what is compared for giving points is rank vs MMR, and therefore their opponent appears favored, as you said, which in turn gives them many points when they win, and very little when they lose. But no chance I'll meet stephano on ladder, even if I am master
Basically what AmericanUmlaut said. Don't believe the OP; he's completely wrong.
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i actually enjoy the occasional difficulty / ease that comes with the new ladder at the moment.
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On April 11 2012 13:03 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 11:08 EnderSword wrote:
Well, 'favored' doesn't influence the points you get the Favored before the game and the points after are different comparison functions. This is simply not accurate. Before the game, the system converts your points to MMR by subtracting bonus points and adding an offset that varies by league and division (this result we'll call "adjusted points"), then compares that against your opponent's MMR. If your adjusted points are less than their MMR, then they are listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on your loading screen. If their adjusted points are less than your MMR, you're listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on their loading screen. It's common for both players to see each other as "favored" at the start of a season. At the end of the game, the result of the very same pre-game calculation used to determine the "favored" display directly determines how many points you receive for the game if you win, or how many you lose if you lose. If your adjusted points were below your opponent's MMR, you win more points for a win and lose fewer points for a loss. This comparison of adjusted points to MMR causes your points to increase rapidly until they come into equilibrium with the MMR of your opponents, which on average will be your MMR. If you have an indication of "favored," it's directly telling you that you will be awarded more points than 12 (but not necessarily a correspondingly larger MMR increase) at the end of the game, if you should win, not counting any bonus. The calculation for how to adjust MMR itself after the game, however, is separate from this process. Edit: It's clear from a lot of your comments here that you generally understand this, but the statement I quoted is not correct. The comparison for "favored" is the very same comparison used to choose the points awarded to you at the end of the game.
Correct.
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On April 11 2012 16:34 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 13:03 Lysenko wrote:On April 11 2012 11:08 EnderSword wrote:
Well, 'favored' doesn't influence the points you get the Favored before the game and the points after are different comparison functions. This is simply not accurate. Before the game, the system converts your points to MMR by subtracting bonus points and adding an offset that varies by league and division (this result we'll call "adjusted points"), then compares that against your opponent's MMR. If your adjusted points are less than their MMR, then they are listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on your loading screen. If their adjusted points are less than your MMR, you're listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on their loading screen. It's common for both players to see each other as "favored" at the start of a season. At the end of the game, the result of the very same pre-game calculation used to determine the "favored" display directly determines how many points you receive for the game if you win, or how many you lose if you lose. If your adjusted points were below your opponent's MMR, you win more points for a win and lose fewer points for a loss. This comparison of adjusted points to MMR causes your points to increase rapidly until they come into equilibrium with the MMR of your opponents, which on average will be your MMR. If you have an indication of "favored," it's directly telling you that you will be awarded more points than 12 (but not necessarily a correspondingly larger MMR increase) at the end of the game, if you should win, not counting any bonus. The calculation for how to adjust MMR itself after the game, however, is separate from this process. Edit: It's clear from a lot of your comments here that you generally understand this, but the statement I quoted is not correct. The comparison for "favored" is the very same comparison used to choose the points awarded to you at the end of the game. Correct.
To be fair, there was a bug at one point that would cause the favored status to be shown incorrectly before games, so you'd get a different point result than indicated before the game, but I think that bug has been fixed.
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On April 11 2012 16:38 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 16:34 vaderseven wrote:On April 11 2012 13:03 Lysenko wrote:On April 11 2012 11:08 EnderSword wrote:
Well, 'favored' doesn't influence the points you get the Favored before the game and the points after are different comparison functions. This is simply not accurate. Before the game, the system converts your points to MMR by subtracting bonus points and adding an offset that varies by league and division (this result we'll call "adjusted points"), then compares that against your opponent's MMR. If your adjusted points are less than their MMR, then they are listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on your loading screen. If their adjusted points are less than your MMR, you're listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on their loading screen. It's common for both players to see each other as "favored" at the start of a season. At the end of the game, the result of the very same pre-game calculation used to determine the "favored" display directly determines how many points you receive for the game if you win, or how many you lose if you lose. If your adjusted points were below your opponent's MMR, you win more points for a win and lose fewer points for a loss. This comparison of adjusted points to MMR causes your points to increase rapidly until they come into equilibrium with the MMR of your opponents, which on average will be your MMR. If you have an indication of "favored," it's directly telling you that you will be awarded more points than 12 (but not necessarily a correspondingly larger MMR increase) at the end of the game, if you should win, not counting any bonus. The calculation for how to adjust MMR itself after the game, however, is separate from this process. Edit: It's clear from a lot of your comments here that you generally understand this, but the statement I quoted is not correct. The comparison for "favored" is the very same comparison used to choose the points awarded to you at the end of the game. Correct. To be fair, there was a bug at one point that would cause the favored status to be shown incorrectly before games, so you'd get a different point result than indicated before the game, but I think that bug has been fixed.
This bug has not been fixed... just played a 4's game where it showed other team as favored, when I won I only got +12. Happens quite often at the beginning of the season.
Btw in this game, the rank breakdown was
My team: master (me), diamond, plat, gold
Other team: 2 diamond, plat, gold
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On April 11 2012 10:58 -Strider- wrote:
So thats why I'm getting destroyed. My record this season so far is horrible... 6-10
This is why people have such big problems, they think a 60% win ratio is horrible, when in fact its really good.
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On April 11 2012 17:04 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:58 -Strider- wrote:
So thats why I'm getting destroyed. My record this season so far is horrible... 6-10 This is why people have such big problems, they think a 60% win ratio is horrible, when in fact its really good.
That's not a 60% win ratio.. It's 37.5% win ratio... that is pretty bad... 6 wins/10 losses. 6wins/16 total games.
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Thanks for clearing everything!
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On April 11 2012 09:25 EnderSword wrote:
3) "It's matching me only against better people!!" This might actually be true, but again isn't actually the new match maker, it's also always been true...depending where you rank. Unless you were close to promotion last season, you'll likely face tough opponents at the beginning of this season. There's a lot of stats reasons for this, but to put it simply, the Ladder just reset everyone to even (EDIT: I do not mean MMR was set to even, I mean everyone's points are now Zero)...now it's allowing the good people to go ahead again. So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
So, New Match-making MAY be good or bad, but you're not going to be able to disntinguish that until about 2 weeks from today because today you don't really know how good anyone is.
The two parts that I bolded and underlined are 100% incorrect and really should be fixed in the OP or this thread closed. The OP did add a strange line stating something about how he knows MMR is not reset and it is just points reset but he clearly is failing to grasp what that means.
1. Unless you were close to promotion last season, you'll likely face tough opponents at the beginning of this season.
No. You will face opponents that are within an acceptable MMR range relative to your own. This is not based on some kind of over the season goal of the matchmaker but just a result of the available gamers hitting find match at a given time and their MMRs being matched to each other.
2. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
This statement shows a clear misunderstanding of how the ladder works. A player that was #1 will end up #1 because he will be gaining very large numbers of points for a win and losing very little for a lose. With that in mind and a 50% win ratio (in theory) occurring he will climb the ladder very fast. This is why you can find players that are 4-4 at the top of some divisions and others that are 9-2 that are not. Your pure win/lose does not matter in the way this thread seems to think it does.
From Excal's thread-
The Favored system compares your opponent's hidden MMR with your adjusted points and calculates an amount of points that the game will be worth if you win or lose. If you stand to gain 0-4 points or lose 20-24, you are Favored; if you stand to gain 5-9 points or lose 15-19, you are Slightly Favored; if you stand to earn or lose 10-14 points, the Teams are Even. This value is independently calculated for each team and the results will not necessarily be zero sum.
The important thing to remember is that "favored" does not always mean "better" unless both players' points have approximately reached their MMRs. Until that time, the "favored" indicator only serves to determine how many points a match is worth, and is not an indicator of skill.
The bottom line is that point number 3 in the OP seems to assume that the point system in the bnet 2.0 ladder mimics some kind of elo or iccup style system for giving out points and he makes some assumptions that the match maker will be tricked by this fact into making players match vs people much better them so that the better people can rise up the ladder.
Thats not how this ladder works. This ladder works on a point vs MMR system and when the two don't match up your points move at a more rapid pace and as such you will find yourself converging on a point that is appropriate for your MMR very quickly.
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I guess i keep reading everything 'correcting' my statement on point #3 and I don't see the difference in what I'm saying and what you're saying.
At no point in #3 do i even mention favoured or not, and I explicitly say prior to that, of course favoured does not mean better.
I also don't mean an offset in terms of raw wins, but an offset in points. favoured certainly doesn't mean 0-4 vs 20-24 for most people. There's not only not an assumption that it mimics ELO, but the absolute ruling out of the idea that it mimics ELO, it wouldn't behave like that whatsoever if it mimiced an ELO system.
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On April 11 2012 21:37 EnderSword wrote:
I guess i keep reading everything 'correcting' my statement on point #3 and I don't see the difference in what I'm saying and what you're saying.
At no point in #3 do i even mention favoured or not, and I explicitly say prior to that, of course favoured does not mean better.
I also don't mean an offset in terms of raw wins, but an offset in points. favoured certainly doesn't mean 0-4 vs 20-24 for most people. There's not only not an assumption that it mimics ELO, but the absolute ruling out of the idea that it mimics ELO, it wouldn't behave like that whatsoever if it mimiced an ELO system.
In number 3, you say:
"It's matching me only against better people!!" This might actually be true
This cannot possibly be true.
If the matchmaker is always matching you against better players, then your opponent is matched to a worse player (you). It is a contradiction of logic that everyone can be matched against better players.
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I'm not sure if it's because my MMR is still unstable (only 16 games played total, 10 this season) or if it's the new matchmaking system, but in the new season I seem to be facing everyone from high Platinum to low master (I'm currently diamond).
I'm curious if this just means it's a wider range period, or if it means that after each win the people you face get better more rapidly and vice versa.
On April 11 2012 22:19 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 21:37 EnderSword wrote:
I guess i keep reading everything 'correcting' my statement on point #3 and I don't see the difference in what I'm saying and what you're saying.
At no point in #3 do i even mention favoured or not, and I explicitly say prior to that, of course favoured does not mean better.
I also don't mean an offset in terms of raw wins, but an offset in points. favoured certainly doesn't mean 0-4 vs 20-24 for most people. There's not only not an assumption that it mimics ELO, but the absolute ruling out of the idea that it mimics ELO, it wouldn't behave like that whatsoever if it mimiced an ELO system. In number 3, you say: This cannot possibly be true. If the matchmaker is always matching you against better players, then your opponent is matched to a worse player (you). It is a contradiction of logic that everyone can be matched against better players.
It is possible for it to be true for some people.
If one person is improving rapidly, it's going to keep placing you against people who are 'better' than you (higher MMR) to find where you belong. Likewise, if someone is on the way down, it will put them against people who are worse than them to find their new home.
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The wrong parts in the op are already very well pointed out by vaderseven and others.
in very simple words:
The ladder reset does not effect the players you are matched against. It is MMR based and MMR is not changed.
You can very much feel the effect of the great range of matched players in the first games already. You can't see the effect in points until they stabilized so.
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Does this have anything to do with the fact that at the end of season 6 i played diamond guy, being #1 GM myself and myfriend behind high GM played like 2 people from platinum, and this season looks like it will be similar ? :D
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On April 11 2012 22:28 Najda wrote:
If one person is improving rapidly, it's going to keep placing you against people who are 'better' than you (higher MMR) to find where you belong. Likewise, if someone is on the way down, it will put them against people who are worse than them to find their new home.
As far as I know this is not true. Where did you get that information?
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On April 11 2012 23:21 Nerchio wrote:
Does this have anything to do with the fact that at the end of season 6 i played diamond guy, being #1 GM myself and myfriend behind high GM played like 2 people from platinum, and this season looks like it will be similar ? :D
Well it's not that unlikely that you play a diamond player even as GM 1. If it is a hacker or a new smurf account who wins every game his MMR gets insanely high and will eventually meet you.
If that's not the case it's probably a bug or you just don't belong in GM. 
Edit: @Mendelfist, this is true based on my experience and it kinda makes sense as well. Maybe you can find proof here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273
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On April 11 2012 23:13 OrbitalPlane wrote:
The wrong parts in the op are already very well pointed out by vaderseven and others.
in very simple words:
The ladder reset does not effect the players you are matched against. It is MMR based and MMR is not changed.
You can very much feel the effect of the great range of matched players in the first games already. You can't see the effect in points until they stabilized so.
Well put. Point 3 in the OP suggests something different. There is NOTHING about time of a season that impacts who you will play. The only thing that impacts who you will play is your MMR and the MMR of other players that are trying to find a match at the same time you are.
On April 11 2012 23:27 OrbitalPlane wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 23:21 Nerchio wrote:
Does this have anything to do with the fact that at the end of season 6 i played diamond guy, being #1 GM myself and myfriend behind high GM played like 2 people from platinum, and this season looks like it will be similar ? :D If that's not the case it's probably a bug or you just don't belong in GM.
Ahh this thread now rocks.
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EPT
