I know the season just started, and there's always a flood of 'This sucks' stuff coming in, just figured I'd point out the 3 main things you are going to see, and how they are or are not affected by the Match-Maker changes.
1) "I got Demoted!" This is not affected the the new match making, Your MMR just put you in that league...remember you must actually be actively improving just to stay in the league you were in before. New match making did not affect this, but the natural shrinking of active players does make it harder to stay high league since more casual Bronzes quit than Masters.
2) "Everyone is 'Favored'! Match maker Brokeneded!"
The start of all your seasons, most people have appeared as 'favored' and guess what, on their end, YOU were 'favored' Favored is not an objective system....BOTH players can see each other as favored. There's two reasons: First, because placement players tend to show as favored to give you the benefit of the doubt, and many people you play today will be doing their placement, secondly. It does not compare your rank vs rank or MMR vs MMR, it apparently compares Rank vs MMR. So it possible, especially early on, both players show as favoured.
3) "It's matching me only against better people!!" This might actually be true, but again isn't actually the new match maker, it's also always been true...depending where you rank. Unless you were close to promotion last season, you'll likely face tough opponents at the beginning of this season. There's a lot of stats reasons for this, but to put it simply, the Ladder just reset everyone to even (EDIT: I do not mean MMR was set to even, I mean everyone's points are now Zero)...now it's allowing the good people to go ahead again. So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
So, New Match-making MAY be good or bad, but you're not going to be able to disntinguish that until about 2 weeks from today because today you don't really know how good anyone is.
Just remember that if you think you are always being matched against better people, your opponent is being matched with someone lousier. So your turn will come to fight lousier opponents.
This is going to ruin ladder games. I have been on a loosing streak because I'm playing people who are way out of my league. This is stupid how they thought this will "fix" rank problems.
On April 11 2012 09:25 EnderSword wrote: 3) "It's matching me only against better people!!" This might actually be true, but again isn't actually the new match maker, it's also always been true...depending where you rank. Unless you were close to promotion last season, you'll likely face tough opponents at the beginning of this season. There's a lot of stats reasons for this, but to put it simply, the Ladder just reset everyone to even...now it's allowing the good people to go ahead again. So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
So, New Match-making MAY be good or bad, but you're not going to be able to disntinguish that until about 2 weeks from today because today you don't really know how good anyone is.
This is incorrect. You are still be paired vs people with the intention to get a 50% win rate. The reason why some people will still be able to climb the ladder faster is covered in your 2nd point.
Example: A former #1 GM player in a new season will see that his opponents are favored vs him for a very long time. This allows him to gain a very large amount of points for a win and lose very little for a lose. As his points approach where his MMR predicts/indicates he should be this effect will go away.
Here is a well written quote from ExcaliburZ's thread that explains this:
The important thing to remember is that "favored" does not always mean "better" unless both players' points have approximately reached their MMRs. Until that time, the "favored" indicator only serves to determine how many points a match is worth, and is not an indicator of skill.
I appreciate the effort in making this thread ender but I just had to correct that because its actually 100% false to say that the ladder resets anything that would result in you playing better (or worse) players than you were playing right before the reset. Its just factually wrong.
You are describing some kind of reset of MMR to a baseline per league and that is just not the case. MMR is not reset at all and MMR is what determines who you will face, end of story!
On April 11 2012 09:32 awu25 wrote: Did they change how placements work? I thought if you skip a season, you have to do 5 again?
This is true ONLY IF you also do not play solo-team games (random partner-2v2's 3v3's 4v4's) because your 1v1 MMR is somehow linked to your Team-game MMR
So if you didnt play 1v1 for a whole season and also did not play solo-team games, then yes, you would have to redo your 5 placement matches at the start of the new season
On April 11 2012 09:39 Czech M8 wrote: This is going to ruin ladder games. I have been on a loosing streak because I'm playing people who are way out of my league. This is stupid how they thought this will "fix" rank problems.
I'm guessing you like read the title and just jumped down to add a post? There is like zero chance you are feeling any impact of the new match making today unless you are a top 50 GM
I must say though, the placement system hasn't worked for me at all. Playing on NA in S6 I was high silver, and in my placement for S7 I played against a platinum and won, yet still got placed into Silver. Then on SEA I was in bronze in S6 (didn't play too much so just average rank, but almost all wins) and played against a Gold in S7 ranking, placed into bronze.
Seems as though you play someone two leagues above what you are before.
I'm always for greater risk/reward. Even if you lose a few more games, you will always learn more playing against superior players (and when you play even more average players, it makes you realize how bad you used to be ).
On April 11 2012 09:45 JAFF3R wrote: I must say though, the placement system hasn't worked for me at all. Playing on NA in S6 I was high silver, and in my placement for S7 I played against a platinum and won, yet still got placed into Silver. Then on SEA I was in bronze in S6 (didn't play too much so just average rank, but almost all wins) and played against a Gold in S7 ranking, placed into bronze.
Seems as though you play someone two leagues above what you are before.
You literally play a random person in the exact same way as literally every single ladder match. There is no difference whatsoever between any ladder match and your placement game.
good post I don't think #3 is true though. match making is based on MMR which is not reset if you played at all last season. it does wipe MMR if you skip an entire season like I did two seasons ago.
So potentially there is an effect of high ranked players getting their MMR reset if they quit and are just coming back but I don't think what you think is happening is happening.
I thought the change was to give you more variety on ladder, which IMO is a welcome change. Most people reach their plateau and they all end up playing same skill ish opponents which gets kinda boring. With this you at least get more variety.
It is certainly annoying how I am matched against players low enough that I win roughly 20-30 points per win at the start of the season where I would normally get 40~ per win against equal opponents in a new season.
On April 11 2012 09:25 EnderSword wrote: 3) "It's matching me only against better people!!" This might actually be true, but again isn't actually the new match maker, it's also always been true...depending where you rank. Unless you were close to promotion last season, you'll likely face tough opponents at the beginning of this season. There's a lot of stats reasons for this, but to put it simply, the Ladder just reset everyone to even...now it's allowing the good people to go ahead again. So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
So, New Match-making MAY be good or bad, but you're not going to be able to disntinguish that until about 2 weeks from today because today you don't really know how good anyone is.
... Why would you write something that's completely wrong, without any sort of evidence to verify (which, had you tried to do so, would have let you know you were wrong)? o_O
On April 11 2012 09:58 yomi wrote: good post I don't think #3 is true though. match making is based on MMR which is not reset if you played at all last season. it does wipe MMR if you skip an entire season like I did two seasons ago.
So potentially there is an effect of high ranked players getting their MMR reset if they quit and are just coming back but I don't think what you think is happening is happening.
I don't mean the MMR is set to even, I meant everyone's points were set to 0. It doesn't reset your MMR, but it essentially seems to facilitate the high folks ending up higher in points again. It's hard to explain exactly what it's mathematically doing without actually seeing the mechanism they use, but if all things were equal...a person ranked #1 last season, and person ranked #30 were to both just play a whole season with no improvement, instead of finishing 1 and 30, they'd both finish with basically the Bonus pool in points. But that is not functionally what happens, the system allows the same gap in points to occur again even when it should theoretically be getting you both to 50/50. It's as if the system tries to re-set you to 50/50 with an offset, like 50/50 +16 wins if that makes sence, mixing the percentage going forward while allowing a +/- offset in a raw number.
On April 11 2012 09:25 EnderSword wrote: 3) "It's matching me only against better people!!" This might actually be true, but again isn't actually the new match maker, it's also always been true...depending where you rank. Unless you were close to promotion last season, you'll likely face tough opponents at the beginning of this season. There's a lot of stats reasons for this, but to put it simply, the Ladder just reset everyone to even...now it's allowing the good people to go ahead again. So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
So, New Match-making MAY be good or bad, but you're not going to be able to disntinguish that until about 2 weeks from today because today you don't really know how good anyone is.
... Why would you write something that's completely wrong, without any sort of evidence to verify (which, had you tried to do so, would have let you know you were wrong)? o_O
I didn't really set out to explain the system itself in entirety, people have done that in much longer posts with graphs and tons of math better than needs to be done here for the tweak to the matchmaker.
But just think about it from the reason of why it must work that way. If it didn't do something within leagues to allow higher MMR to get more points, then starting in Season 2, points wouldn't have had literally any relation to the person's rank.
It's a fairly rough relation now, but there would be quite literally no correlation if this function wasn't in it.
Again, it did not set eeryone to even MMR...it set everyone even points and ranks. Your MMR is completely unaffected by seasons changing.
3) "It's matching me only against better people!!"
This is LOL argument to think it only matches you with harder people.
If you're being matched with better people, those people are being matched with easier people, so it's guaranteed that not everyone is having a tough time.
I dunno, I played a guy today who looked like he had literally never played a 1v1 before. I am gold and this guy was destined for bronze.Take that as anecdotal evidence I guess, but I've never played someone so bad since I was in bronze league.
I almost felt bad cause when I attacked I had triple his supply, but then he floated his buildings like a douche and demanded I leave...
On April 11 2012 09:58 yomi wrote: good post I don't think #3 is true though. match making is based on MMR which is not reset if you played at all last season. it does wipe MMR if you skip an entire season like I did two seasons ago.
So potentially there is an effect of high ranked players getting their MMR reset if they quit and are just coming back but I don't think what you think is happening is happening.
I don't mean the MMR is set to even, I meant everyone's points were set to 0. It doesn't reset your MMR, but it essentially seems to facilitate the high folks ending up higher in points again. It's hard to explain exactly what it's mathematically doing without actually seeing the mechanism they use, but if all things were equal...a person ranked #1 last season, and person ranked #30 were to both just play a whole season with no improvement, instead of finishing 1 and 30, they'd both finish with basically the Bonus pool in points. But that is not functionally what happens, the system allows the same gap in points to occur again even when it should theoretically be getting you both to 50/50. It's as if the system tries to re-set you to 50/50 with an offset, like 50/50 +16 wins if that makes sence, mixing the percentage going forward while allowing a +/- offset in a raw number.
I explained what is happening by quoting a very well done and established thread on the matter. I'll do so again:
The important thing to remember is that "favored" does not always mean "better" unless both players' points have approximately reached their MMRs. Until that time, the "favored" indicator only serves to determine how many points a match is worth, and is not an indicator of skill.
Since no one's points have approximately reached their MMR then the players that are farthest from this point will see the other player marked as favored for a long time resulting in large point gains for a win and small loses for a lose.
Your 3rd point in the OP is just wrong and should be rewritten.
I stopped playing last season cuz i got put into diamond yet again, even though i beat a masters player in placement. Today i played expecting the same results or worse, since i'm quite rusty, but i finally got into masters after beating another masters player. I really dont know what the fuck is going on with the mmr system. I fell like my skill was way higher at the beginning of season 6 and it still didnt promote me then, and now it promotes me when it's supossedly harder to get into masters since there's less people playing the game. I even thought blizzard tweaked the system to promote players who aren't very active so they start playing again.
I am sure many players will blow this out of proportion. SC2 is not the only game to do this, and even when it does match you up with a slightly higher/lower MMR than it usually would, I highly doubt it will be for 5 games in a row.
On April 11 2012 09:58 yomi wrote: good post I don't think #3 is true though. match making is based on MMR which is not reset if you played at all last season. it does wipe MMR if you skip an entire season like I did two seasons ago.
So potentially there is an effect of high ranked players getting their MMR reset if they quit and are just coming back but I don't think what you think is happening is happening.
I don't mean the MMR is set to even, I meant everyone's points were set to 0. It doesn't reset your MMR, but it essentially seems to facilitate the high folks ending up higher in points again. It's hard to explain exactly what it's mathematically doing without actually seeing the mechanism they use, but if all things were equal...a person ranked #1 last season, and person ranked #30 were to both just play a whole season with no improvement, instead of finishing 1 and 30, they'd both finish with basically the Bonus pool in points. But that is not functionally what happens, the system allows the same gap in points to occur again even when it should theoretically be getting you both to 50/50. It's as if the system tries to re-set you to 50/50 with an offset, like 50/50 +16 wins if that makes sence, mixing the percentage going forward while allowing a +/- offset in a raw number.
I explained what is happening by quoting a very well done and established thread on the matter. I'll do so again:
The important thing to remember is that "favored" does not always mean "better" unless both players' points have approximately reached their MMRs. Until that time, the "favored" indicator only serves to determine how many points a match is worth, and is not an indicator of skill.
Since no one's points have approximately reached their MMR then the players that are farthest from this point will see the other player marked as favored for a long time resulting in large point gains for a win and small loses for a lose.
Your 3rd point in the OP is just wrong and should be rewritten.
Well, 'favored' doesn't influence the points you get the Favored before the game and the points after are different comparison functions. Also people's points don't 'approach their MMR' exactly, but yes, as someone's point approach their Offset from the league average, and That offset is number based, not percentage based if that's what you mean by that.
I editted the point to mention I mean points are reset, not MMR. But the function is still the same was what I said, a higher MMR player initially has a better than 50/50 until he's hit the +Offset to their points. like typically you'd find #1 in a league is like a +30 wins from bonus pool..but again it's not % based, it's like he is +30 and 50/50 from then out unless he improves.
In general as i read that though, yes that's what's happening, and that's basically the function I'm describing, but I wasn't putting any importance to the favored tag their since it doesn't influence points. Only the post game one does.
Thanks EnderSword! Very explanatory video! However, I'm not completely sure about the statement that your league is determined before your placement. I think that it's probably determined for the most part, but if your on the edge between two leagues, your placement match does have an effect on the league your placed in. If I recall correctly, the placement match does function as a normal match when affecting your MMR, but I suspect it may have a little more effect on league placements than just a normal league match.
The match making has created some kind of bug i feel. I only vs masters players about 1/3 games. Yet today after not playing my account for a long time I was promoted to masters.
I by no means think im a great player, but i am highish masters on NA, im normally rank 1/2 of my div when im active and face GM's a lot. I have played against a lot of well known players, and sometimes i do well but most of the time its a waste of their time. looking at the GM list from last season, i have played almost every other player. My point is, most of those games are a waste of time, i get rolled and learn a lot, but the pro player training for mlg/gsl/any other event isnt getting good training, and now they can match against people who are worse than me? I agree with idra's tweet, the matchmaking isnt the greatest already, now its even worse.
Masters 4's RT is now infested with plats and golds, omfg...
and save ur "masters 4's is only gold or plat 1v1 level anyways" for some other thread please. This new system is lame. Beating up on noobs gets old very quick.
I have a funny story about this. I borrowed a plat friends account. I played the match and won against a high plat. It placed me in gold. T_T.
I won the next match and got promoted. and in top 2 in division. That doesn't make too much sense to me. Wanted to try the new match making system. and it ends up in brutal failure. This is going to be interesting on the kr server haha.
On April 11 2012 11:08 EnderSword wrote: Well, 'favored' doesn't influence the points you get the Favored before the game and the points after are different comparison functions.
This is simply not accurate. Before the game, the system converts your points to MMR by subtracting bonus points and adding an offset that varies by league and division (this result we'll call "adjusted points"), then compares that against your opponent's MMR. If your adjusted points are less than their MMR, then they are listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on your loading screen. If their adjusted points are less than your MMR, you're listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on their loading screen. It's common for both players to see each other as "favored" at the start of a season.
At the end of the game, the result of the very same pre-game calculation used to determine the "favored" display directly determines how many points you receive for the game if you win, or how many you lose if you lose. If your adjusted points were below your opponent's MMR, you win more points for a win and lose fewer points for a loss. This comparison of adjusted points to MMR causes your points to increase rapidly until they come into equilibrium with the MMR of your opponents, which on average will be your MMR.
If you have an indication of "favored," it's directly telling you that you will be awarded more points than 12 (but not necessarily a correspondingly larger MMR increase) at the end of the game, if you should win, not counting any bonus.
The calculation for how to adjust MMR itself after the game, however, is separate from this process.
Edit: It's clear from a lot of your comments here that you generally understand this, but the statement I quoted is not correct. The comparison for "favored" is the very same comparison used to choose the points awarded to you at the end of the game.
On April 11 2012 09:32 awu25 wrote: Did they change how placements work? I thought if you skip a season, you have to do 5 again?
This is true ONLY IF you also do not play solo-team games (random partner-2v2's 3v3's 4v4's) because your 1v1 MMR is somehow linked to your Team-game MMR
So if you didnt play 1v1 for a whole season and also did not play solo-team games, then yes, you would have to redo your 5 placement matches at the start of the new season
Wait, really? I've never heard that your team games had anything to do with solo MMR. I've been matched with GM players on many occasions in solo masters teams and I'll tell you for damn sure I'm no GM in 1v1.
I can't believe Blizzard would be as dumb to make MMR work like that... but then again, it IS Blizzard..
On April 11 2012 12:44 L3g3nd_ wrote: I really dont think this is a good idea.
I by no means think im a great player, but i am highish masters on NA, im normally rank 1/2 of my div when im active and face GM's a lot. I have played against a lot of well known players, and sometimes i do well but most of the time its a waste of their time. looking at the GM list from last season, i have played almost every other player. My point is, most of those games are a waste of time, i get rolled and learn a lot, but the pro player training for mlg/gsl/any other event isnt getting good training, and now they can match against people who are worse than me? I agree with idra's tweet, the matchmaking isnt the greatest already, now its even worse.
Well, I understand what you mean by training, but I don't think that the ladder should be used for those purposes unless the skill level in an area is EXTREMELY high (cough cough Korea). Even then, I think it still would be ideal to have practice partners that you know are good.
With that said, I do think that the ladder system is a bit broken now. I placed in plat, then lost to 3 plat terrans. I then played and beat a diamond zerg and now I have played diamond after diamond player. I just don't understand.
On April 11 2012 10:15 ktimekiller wrote: It is certainly annoying how I am matched against players low enough that I win roughly 20-30 points per win at the start of the season where I would normally get 40~ per win against equal opponents in a new season.
I believe they made matchmaking a tad too loose. I played a game vs a mid master (his s6 rank was 44) and I'm a fresh diamond player. I just couldn't keep up with his Speed Colossus harass. Was the most 1sided game I've played in a LONG time. If they are going to keep this loose matchmaking they really need to fix the point win/loss.
i didnt read the rest of the comments in this thread, but here's my 2c
ive been in top8 masters team games every season. just played 7-8 games -- about half got matched with diamond partner, the other half with matched up with gold/platinum. people we played against were mostly diamond as well. i dont know what blizzard did but this is mind numbingly annoying.
im also not the "if this doenst change im quiting !!@121!" type, but considering all my friends already stoped playing and ive only done RTs last season, if this goes on theres really no point to continue.
ps: its hilarious to listen to all the scrubs that suddenly think theyre good because theyre regularly teamed up with masters players though.
On April 11 2012 14:04 Wildmoon wrote: They want to experiment about this kind of system this season. If it doesn't work they will use the old one. Calm down.
Good post. Blizzard is still experimenting new things. Patience guys!
On April 11 2012 09:45 JAFF3R wrote: I must say though, the placement system hasn't worked for me at all. Playing on NA in S6 I was high silver, and in my placement for S7 I played against a platinum and won, yet still got placed into Silver. Then on SEA I was in bronze in S6 (didn't play too much so just average rank, but almost all wins) and played against a Gold in S7 ranking, placed into bronze.
Seems as though you play someone two leagues above what you are before.
You literally play a random person in the exact same way as literally every single ladder match. There is no difference whatsoever between any ladder match and your placement game.
The placement could not be less meaningful
The 2nd part is not true -- the placement game helps weed out inactive players from season to season. I imagine that's pretty important to maintaining the leagues as %'s of active players.
On April 11 2012 14:17 NB wrote: didnt do placement last season, have 1 placement to do this season: find match -> immediately leave -> still master :-/
I thought if you skip placement for one full season your MMR resets and you have to do your 5 all over again the next season you play again....
On April 11 2012 14:04 Wildmoon wrote: They want to experiment about this kind of system this season. If it doesn't work they will use the old one. Calm down.
Good post. Blizzard is still experimenting new things. Patience guys!
On April 11 2012 09:25 EnderSword wrote: 3) "It's matching me only against better people!!" This might actually be true, but again isn't actually the new match maker, it's also always been true...depending where you rank. Unless you were close to promotion last season, you'll likely face tough opponents at the beginning of this season. There's a lot of stats reasons for this, but to put it simply, the Ladder just reset everyone to even...now it's allowing the good people to go ahead again. So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
So, New Match-making MAY be good or bad, but you're not going to be able to disntinguish that until about 2 weeks from today because today you don't really know how good anyone is.
... Why would you write something that's completely wrong, without any sort of evidence to verify (which, had you tried to do so, would have let you know you were wrong)? o_O
I didn't really set out to explain the system itself in entirety, people have done that in much longer posts with graphs and tons of math better than needs to be done here for the tweak to the matchmaker.
But just think about it from the reason of why it must work that way. If it didn't do something within leagues to allow higher MMR to get more points, then starting in Season 2, points wouldn't have had literally any relation to the person's rank.
It's a fairly rough relation now, but there would be quite literally no correlation if this function wasn't in it.
Again, it did not set eeryone to even MMR...it set everyone even points and ranks. Your MMR is completely unaffected by seasons changing.
sdfskdlfsdf you hurt my brain man. Others have already pointed out how you are completely incorrect. For other people reading though, to save them the trouble of having to go through the thread, it basically goes like this:
In other words, your adjusted points are compared to your opponent's MMR to determine favourability and how much the game is worth in points. At the beginning of the season, your adjusted points are always going to be well below your opponent's MMR (since your points were reset to 0). Consequently, you'll gain more points than you lose in your initial games until your points more closely reflect your MMR (and subsequently the matchmaker finally starts considering your games as being "evenly matched"). The matchmaking system doesn't arbitrarily pit you against weaker opponents at the start of the season; if it did, I'd have gotten way more wins in Season 5, after reaching Diamond rank 6 in Season 4. :\
Please stop spouting nonsense and actually learn about the topic you're trying to teach others about.
Thank you for making this clear for everyone, since a lot of people are just spewing or regurgitating what they hear or imagine, without testing to see what it really looks like.
On April 11 2012 13:46 iTzSnypah wrote: I believe they made matchmaking a tad too loose. I played a game vs a mid master (his s6 rank was 44) and I'm a fresh diamond player. I just couldn't keep up with his Speed Colossus harass. Was the most 1sided game I've played in a LONG time. If they are going to keep this loose matchmaking they really need to fix the point win/loss.
Watched it... I think the storms in that first battle did more damage than the colossus. Aside from his templar he only had like 1 colo and 12 gateway units or so vs ur huge bio army but storm tore u to shreds
On April 11 2012 14:17 NB wrote: didnt do placement last season, have 1 placement to do this season: find match -> immediately leave -> still master :-/
I thought if you skip placement for one full season your MMR resets and you have to do your 5 all over again the next season you play again....
I think you need to avoid team ladder games as well. I hadn't 1v1'd since season 4, but I played one game tonight and it put me right back in master league.
I'm not so sure about this matchmaking change. My season placement match (I'm high diamond) was against a low Platinum. Let's just say it wasn't pretty. I was placed back in high diamond but I don't see how I could learn anything from the game I played. The guy literally had half the stuff I had and was down 10 workers early on and was down 20 supply 10 minutes in (the game only lasted 13). I mean easier games are fine once in a while but that easy isn't fun for me or the other guy. I'm not looking forward to being the worse player in that situation either.
My offracing account got demoted to Platinum after facing a Diamond, but platinum is where it should be because I haven't offraced in a couple months.
On April 11 2012 09:37 EnderSword wrote: I dont think any changes were made to anything like that
I didn't place in 1v1 last season and now I'm staring at my main screen and it's telling me to play one match to placed into a division
THen u played team random. Ur 1v1 rating influences ur random team rating.
No thats wrong. While 1v1 does influence team games, the reason you have to play 1 game is because its a new season in 1v1, so if you have completed your 5 placement matches before you play one placement match at the start of the new season. This is a way to keep track of who is active on the ladder each season.
*Just wanted to whine about how easy my games have been this season. ^^
On April 11 2012 15:19 Ben... wrote: I'm not so sure about this matchmaking change. My season placement match (I'm high diamond) was against a low Platinum. Let's just say it wasn't pretty. I was placed back in high diamond but I don't see how I could learn anything from the game I played. The guy literally had half the stuff I had and was down 10 workers early on and was down 20 supply 10 minutes in (the game only lasted 13). I mean easier games are fine once in a while but that easy isn't fun for me or the other guy. I'm not looking forward to being the worse player in that situation either.
My offracing account got demoted to Platinum after facing a Diamond, but platinum is where it should be because I haven't offraced in a couple months.
I dunno, I like the concept. Actually tend to play custom 1v1 games more than I ladder simply because I enjoy sometimes getting placed against better/worse players than myself; it creates some variety, and I don't always have to worry about playing a stressfully close game.
Also, getting crushed opens the opportunity to learn; replay analysis is your friend. Playing only similar opponents makes it difficult to see/learn how and why better players are actually better than you. I have to say some of my biggest breakthroughs have come from watching myself getting rolled by Masters players in custom 1v1 games, and there's a sense of accomplishment when I either play a solid game against a Masters or even defeat one from time to time.
At the very least, I don't mind Blizzard giving it a whirl for one season to see how it pans out. I'd even bet most people won't even realize/think about it come end of season.
I just know that as gold, i went from playing high gold/low plat last season to playing high plat/low diamond this season. Basically I'm just getting thrashed to the point I really don't feel like playing anymore.
On April 11 2012 09:25 EnderSword wrote: So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
Is this true? I thought the matchmaking worked differently. First days in a league arenot so much a moment where higher players play against much lower player. higher players get many more points early in the season, not because of that, but because when they are paired against players of their level (they are paired with MMR only), what is compared for giving points is rank vs MMR, and therefore their opponent appears favored, as you said, which in turn gives them many points when they win, and very little when they lose. But no chance I'll meet stephano on ladder, even if I am master
On April 11 2012 09:25 EnderSword wrote: So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
Is this true? I thought the matchmaking worked differently. First days in a league arenot so much a moment where higher players play against much lower player. higher players get many more points early in the season, not because of that, but because when they are paired against players of their level (they are paired with MMR only), what is compared for giving points is rank vs MMR, and therefore their opponent appears favored, as you said, which in turn gives them many points when they win, and very little when they lose. But no chance I'll meet stephano on ladder, even if I am master
It is not true. Matchmaking works differently.
I really don't understand why someone would open a thread to explain their incorrect theory about how the ladder works when there is already a really good thread with accurate information that Excalibur_Z put a huge amount of effort into researching and writing.
Anyone who is interested in how the matchmaking system and point rewards for wins and losses work should be congregating over here -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273. The only change that there is reason to believe exists between last season and this season is that the spread in the "two players are matched" graphic is now somewhat wider than it used to be.
On April 11 2012 09:39 Czech M8 wrote: This is going to ruin ladder games. I have been on a loosing streak because I'm playing people who are way out of my league. This is stupid how they thought this will "fix" rank problems.
Well, the reason you are being matched with better people is probably because the ladder wants to promote you! Ex: I am gold, ive been playing mostly gold whole season, last 2 weeks I almost only played Plat, they are mostly better then me, btu I am starting to win about 50% of those matches. I know now, that its a 50/50 chance I be gold or plat.
So, if you want to be promoted, you must prove you can beat better players? Its nto that strange is it?
If you lose all of them though, youl get matched with lower ranked players again.
On April 11 2012 09:25 EnderSword wrote: So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
Is this true? I thought the matchmaking worked differently. First days in a league arenot so much a moment where higher players play against much lower player. higher players get many more points early in the season, not because of that, but because when they are paired against players of their level (they are paired with MMR only), what is compared for giving points is rank vs MMR, and therefore their opponent appears favored, as you said, which in turn gives them many points when they win, and very little when they lose. But no chance I'll meet stephano on ladder, even if I am master
Basically what AmericanUmlaut said. Don't believe the OP; he's completely wrong.
On April 11 2012 11:08 EnderSword wrote: Well, 'favored' doesn't influence the points you get the Favored before the game and the points after are different comparison functions.
This is simply not accurate. Before the game, the system converts your points to MMR by subtracting bonus points and adding an offset that varies by league and division (this result we'll call "adjusted points"), then compares that against your opponent's MMR. If your adjusted points are less than their MMR, then they are listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on your loading screen. If their adjusted points are less than your MMR, you're listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on their loading screen. It's common for both players to see each other as "favored" at the start of a season.
At the end of the game, the result of the very same pre-game calculation used to determine the "favored" display directly determines how many points you receive for the game if you win, or how many you lose if you lose. If your adjusted points were below your opponent's MMR, you win more points for a win and lose fewer points for a loss. This comparison of adjusted points to MMR causes your points to increase rapidly until they come into equilibrium with the MMR of your opponents, which on average will be your MMR.
If you have an indication of "favored," it's directly telling you that you will be awarded more points than 12 (but not necessarily a correspondingly larger MMR increase) at the end of the game, if you should win, not counting any bonus.
The calculation for how to adjust MMR itself after the game, however, is separate from this process.
Edit: It's clear from a lot of your comments here that you generally understand this, but the statement I quoted is not correct. The comparison for "favored" is the very same comparison used to choose the points awarded to you at the end of the game.
On April 11 2012 11:08 EnderSword wrote: Well, 'favored' doesn't influence the points you get the Favored before the game and the points after are different comparison functions.
This is simply not accurate. Before the game, the system converts your points to MMR by subtracting bonus points and adding an offset that varies by league and division (this result we'll call "adjusted points"), then compares that against your opponent's MMR. If your adjusted points are less than their MMR, then they are listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on your loading screen. If their adjusted points are less than your MMR, you're listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on their loading screen. It's common for both players to see each other as "favored" at the start of a season.
At the end of the game, the result of the very same pre-game calculation used to determine the "favored" display directly determines how many points you receive for the game if you win, or how many you lose if you lose. If your adjusted points were below your opponent's MMR, you win more points for a win and lose fewer points for a loss. This comparison of adjusted points to MMR causes your points to increase rapidly until they come into equilibrium with the MMR of your opponents, which on average will be your MMR.
If you have an indication of "favored," it's directly telling you that you will be awarded more points than 12 (but not necessarily a correspondingly larger MMR increase) at the end of the game, if you should win, not counting any bonus.
The calculation for how to adjust MMR itself after the game, however, is separate from this process.
Edit: It's clear from a lot of your comments here that you generally understand this, but the statement I quoted is not correct. The comparison for "favored" is the very same comparison used to choose the points awarded to you at the end of the game.
Correct.
To be fair, there was a bug at one point that would cause the favored status to be shown incorrectly before games, so you'd get a different point result than indicated before the game, but I think that bug has been fixed.
On April 11 2012 11:08 EnderSword wrote: Well, 'favored' doesn't influence the points you get the Favored before the game and the points after are different comparison functions.
This is simply not accurate. Before the game, the system converts your points to MMR by subtracting bonus points and adding an offset that varies by league and division (this result we'll call "adjusted points"), then compares that against your opponent's MMR. If your adjusted points are less than their MMR, then they are listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on your loading screen. If their adjusted points are less than your MMR, you're listed as "favored" or "slightly favored" on their loading screen. It's common for both players to see each other as "favored" at the start of a season.
At the end of the game, the result of the very same pre-game calculation used to determine the "favored" display directly determines how many points you receive for the game if you win, or how many you lose if you lose. If your adjusted points were below your opponent's MMR, you win more points for a win and lose fewer points for a loss. This comparison of adjusted points to MMR causes your points to increase rapidly until they come into equilibrium with the MMR of your opponents, which on average will be your MMR.
If you have an indication of "favored," it's directly telling you that you will be awarded more points than 12 (but not necessarily a correspondingly larger MMR increase) at the end of the game, if you should win, not counting any bonus.
The calculation for how to adjust MMR itself after the game, however, is separate from this process.
Edit: It's clear from a lot of your comments here that you generally understand this, but the statement I quoted is not correct. The comparison for "favored" is the very same comparison used to choose the points awarded to you at the end of the game.
Correct.
To be fair, there was a bug at one point that would cause the favored status to be shown incorrectly before games, so you'd get a different point result than indicated before the game, but I think that bug has been fixed.
This bug has not been fixed... just played a 4's game where it showed other team as favored, when I won I only got +12. Happens quite often at the beginning of the season.
Btw in this game, the rank breakdown was
My team: master (me), diamond, plat, gold Other team: 2 diamond, plat, gold
On April 11 2012 09:25 EnderSword wrote: 3) "It's matching me only against better people!!" This might actually be true, but again isn't actually the new match maker, it's also always been true...depending where you rank. Unless you were close to promotion last season, you'll likely face tough opponents at the beginning of this season. There's a lot of stats reasons for this, but to put it simply, the Ladder just reset everyone to even (EDIT: I do not mean MMR was set to even, I mean everyone's points are now Zero)...now it's allowing the good people to go ahead again. So it's now letting you play against the #1 guy in your diviion who never quite got promoted, and that guy who just barely fell out of Masters. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
So, New Match-making MAY be good or bad, but you're not going to be able to disntinguish that until about 2 weeks from today because today you don't really know how good anyone is.
The two parts that I bolded and underlined are 100% incorrect and really should be fixed in the OP or this thread closed. The OP did add a strange line stating something about how he knows MMR is not reset and it is just points reset but he clearly is failing to grasp what that means.
1. Unless you were close to promotion last season, you'll likely face tough opponents at the beginning of this season.
No. You will face opponents that are within an acceptable MMR range relative to your own. This is not based on some kind of over the season goal of the matchmaker but just a result of the available gamers hitting find match at a given time and their MMRs being matched to each other.
2. If it didn't do this, then the guy who was #1 would probably end up ranked 40th or 50th this season because he came in at 0 points and was already playing evenly matched much harder players....so it lets him play you for a bit. Just grin and take it for a few days.
This statement shows a clear misunderstanding of how the ladder works. A player that was #1 will end up #1 because he will be gaining very large numbers of points for a win and losing very little for a lose. With that in mind and a 50% win ratio (in theory) occurring he will climb the ladder very fast. This is why you can find players that are 4-4 at the top of some divisions and others that are 9-2 that are not. Your pure win/lose does not matter in the way this thread seems to think it does.
From Excal's thread-
The Favored system compares your opponent's hidden MMR with your adjusted points and calculates an amount of points that the game will be worth if you win or lose. If you stand to gain 0-4 points or lose 20-24, you are Favored; if you stand to gain 5-9 points or lose 15-19, you are Slightly Favored; if you stand to earn or lose 10-14 points, the Teams are Even. This value is independently calculated for each team and the results will not necessarily be zero sum.
The important thing to remember is that "favored" does not always mean "better" unless both players' points have approximately reached their MMRs. Until that time, the "favored" indicator only serves to determine how many points a match is worth, and is not an indicator of skill.
The bottom line is that point number 3 in the OP seems to assume that the point system in the bnet 2.0 ladder mimics some kind of elo or iccup style system for giving out points and he makes some assumptions that the match maker will be tricked by this fact into making players match vs people much better them so that the better people can rise up the ladder.
Thats not how this ladder works. This ladder works on a point vs MMR system and when the two don't match up your points move at a more rapid pace and as such you will find yourself converging on a point that is appropriate for your MMR very quickly.
I guess i keep reading everything 'correcting' my statement on point #3 and I don't see the difference in what I'm saying and what you're saying.
At no point in #3 do i even mention favoured or not, and I explicitly say prior to that, of course favoured does not mean better.
I also don't mean an offset in terms of raw wins, but an offset in points. favoured certainly doesn't mean 0-4 vs 20-24 for most people. There's not only not an assumption that it mimics ELO, but the absolute ruling out of the idea that it mimics ELO, it wouldn't behave like that whatsoever if it mimiced an ELO system.
On April 11 2012 21:37 EnderSword wrote: I guess i keep reading everything 'correcting' my statement on point #3 and I don't see the difference in what I'm saying and what you're saying.
At no point in #3 do i even mention favoured or not, and I explicitly say prior to that, of course favoured does not mean better.
I also don't mean an offset in terms of raw wins, but an offset in points. favoured certainly doesn't mean 0-4 vs 20-24 for most people. There's not only not an assumption that it mimics ELO, but the absolute ruling out of the idea that it mimics ELO, it wouldn't behave like that whatsoever if it mimiced an ELO system.
In number 3, you say:
"It's matching me only against better people!!" This might actually be true
This cannot possibly be true.
If the matchmaker is always matching you against better players, then your opponent is matched to a worse player (you). It is a contradiction of logic that everyone can be matched against better players.
I'm not sure if it's because my MMR is still unstable (only 16 games played total, 10 this season) or if it's the new matchmaking system, but in the new season I seem to be facing everyone from high Platinum to low master (I'm currently diamond).
I'm curious if this just means it's a wider range period, or if it means that after each win the people you face get better more rapidly and vice versa.
On April 11 2012 21:37 EnderSword wrote: I guess i keep reading everything 'correcting' my statement on point #3 and I don't see the difference in what I'm saying and what you're saying.
At no point in #3 do i even mention favoured or not, and I explicitly say prior to that, of course favoured does not mean better.
I also don't mean an offset in terms of raw wins, but an offset in points. favoured certainly doesn't mean 0-4 vs 20-24 for most people. There's not only not an assumption that it mimics ELO, but the absolute ruling out of the idea that it mimics ELO, it wouldn't behave like that whatsoever if it mimiced an ELO system.
"It's matching me only against better people!!" This might actually be true
This cannot possibly be true.
If the matchmaker is always matching you against better players, then your opponent is matched to a worse player (you). It is a contradiction of logic that everyone can be matched against better players.
It is possible for it to be true for some people.
If one person is improving rapidly, it's going to keep placing you against people who are 'better' than you (higher MMR) to find where you belong. Likewise, if someone is on the way down, it will put them against people who are worse than them to find their new home.
The wrong parts in the op are already very well pointed out by vaderseven and others.
in very simple words: The ladder reset does not effect the players you are matched against. It is MMR based and MMR is not changed.
You can very much feel the effect of the great range of matched players in the first games already. You can't see the effect in points until they stabilized so.
Does this have anything to do with the fact that at the end of season 6 i played diamond guy, being #1 GM myself and myfriend behind high GM played like 2 people from platinum, and this season looks like it will be similar ? :D
On April 11 2012 22:28 Najda wrote: If one person is improving rapidly, it's going to keep placing you against people who are 'better' than you (higher MMR) to find where you belong. Likewise, if someone is on the way down, it will put them against people who are worse than them to find their new home.
As far as I know this is not true. Where did you get that information?
On April 11 2012 23:21 Nerchio wrote: Does this have anything to do with the fact that at the end of season 6 i played diamond guy, being #1 GM myself and myfriend behind high GM played like 2 people from platinum, and this season looks like it will be similar ? :D
Well it's not that unlikely that you play a diamond player even as GM 1. If it is a hacker or a new smurf account who wins every game his MMR gets insanely high and will eventually meet you.
If that's not the case it's probably a bug or you just don't belong in GM.
On April 11 2012 23:13 OrbitalPlane wrote: The wrong parts in the op are already very well pointed out by vaderseven and others.
in very simple words: The ladder reset does not effect the players you are matched against. It is MMR based and MMR is not changed.
You can very much feel the effect of the great range of matched players in the first games already. You can't see the effect in points until they stabilized so.
Well put. Point 3 in the OP suggests something different. There is NOTHING about time of a season that impacts who you will play. The only thing that impacts who you will play is your MMR and the MMR of other players that are trying to find a match at the same time you are.
On April 11 2012 23:21 Nerchio wrote: Does this have anything to do with the fact that at the end of season 6 i played diamond guy, being #1 GM myself and myfriend behind high GM played like 2 people from platinum, and this season looks like it will be similar ? :D
If that's not the case it's probably a bug or you just don't belong in GM.
This is a pretty stupid post. The placing IS broken. I can provide you with screenshots that I was in Silver and winning EVERY SINGLE MATCH. Literally, every single one. I did my division placement thing, oh look at that, I'm in bronze now. Did 3 matches in a row, won them all. Seriously, Starcraft 2 is fucked up, like when I was in silver it was throwing me against Plats and I was beating those. But did it move me up a league? Fuck no. Stupid.
The poster I answered said that if you are improving you will get matched against people with higher MMR than your own. Since you can't see you own MMR I don't know how this can be your "experience". No, it doesn't make a bit sense. Yes, I have read all the ladder guides.
If you win a lot you will face better players, if you loose a lot of games you will face worse players. Thats like the core of the ladder system. You can't proof that for sure with the MMR because nobody knows how it is calculated. Every time i am on a winning streak my opponents get slighly favourite or favourite. If that's the case because my MMR has increased faster than my points (that's what i guess) or if i get faced against people with higher MMR we don't know.
On April 12 2012 04:54 OrbitalPlane wrote: If you win a lot you will face better players, if you loose a lot of games you will face worse players. Thats like the core of the ladder system. You can't proof that for sure with the MMR because nobody knows how it is calculated. Every time i am on a winning streak my opponents get slighly favourite or favourite. If that's the case because my MMR has increased faster than my points (that's what i guess) or if i get faced against people with higher MMR we don't know.
That you face better players when you win is not the question. The question is if you are matched up against people with higher MMR than your own, ie the system creates matches that it thinks are uneven to as Najda said "find where you belong". THAT part doesn't make sense, and there is absolutely nothing in the current knowledge about the system that points to this.
So, unless you think that I get worse opponents when I win, this proves that the change in the favored status is a result of the volatility of points, not any change in MMR vs opponents MMR. Points can move fast if you have few games played, or slow if you have many games played.
You said in that post: "every time I start to lose more than I win my opponents get more and more favored". I actually think it is the other way around. Every time your opponents get favored you will loose more.
quotes from Excalibur_Z guide: Your points will drift toward your hidden MMR over a period of time, ... MMR is more volatile than points.
On April 11 2012 10:58 -Strider- wrote: So thats why I'm getting destroyed. My record this season so far is horrible... 6-10
This is why people have such big problems, they think a 60% win ratio is horrible, when in fact its really good.
That's not a 60% win ratio.. It's 37.5% win ratio... that is pretty bad... 6 wins/10 losses. 6wins/16 total games.
6w 10l is not bad by any means... that's such a small sample size.
If by the end of the a season of 100-200 games the percent was the same, I'd be more concerned.
This is the reason we can't see our losses anymore... people can't accept defeat. There has to be something wrong with the system, it's not them. This guy didn't just have an off day, or some bad games... no, it's the system that is broken. I guarantee you he wouldn't be on these forums complaining if he had 10 wins 6 losses.
I don't even know why I read these kinds of threads... it's just frustrating realizing so many people lack basic logic.
The new system is very bad. I shouldn't be matched with those noobs. I didn't have to play with them before the new season.
Team games have notoriously wacky matchmaking anyway. I doubt this is a result of the new system. A lot of the time the difference between a gold team and a masters team is having a coherent strategy (read: all in), so there are a lot of teams in team games with deceptively low ranks but high MMRs
On April 11 2012 21:37 EnderSword wrote: I guess i keep reading everything 'correcting' my statement on point #3 and I don't see the difference in what I'm saying and what you're saying.
At no point in #3 do i even mention favoured or not, and I explicitly say prior to that, of course favoured does not mean better.
I also don't mean an offset in terms of raw wins, but an offset in points. favoured certainly doesn't mean 0-4 vs 20-24 for most people. There's not only not an assumption that it mimics ELO, but the absolute ruling out of the idea that it mimics ELO, it wouldn't behave like that whatsoever if it mimiced an ELO system.
asfkdlkdsglsd do you even know what you wrote in point #3? People have even highlighted specific lines and elaborated why those sentences are wrong.
On April 12 2012 07:48 malaan wrote: Ok, seriously confused with this -
I'm currently rank 1 master on EU. Played my placement match and went back into M division (I was GM last season).
Played 15 games so far , 3 low masters players and the rest high diamond?
I have not played anyone my skill level yet. But even weirder, the matchmaker says all games are favoured. I now have a 20-0 win steak...
That you're playing a lot more games against lower-level players is something one would expect based on a broader range to match against. There are very few rank 1 master players and lots of low master players and diamond players, so it finds them quickly.
The reason all your games show up as favored (sorry -- can't shake that American spelling) is that having a relatively high MMR means you have a long way to go until your adjusted points match that high MMR, so you get tons of extra points per game until you get there, whether your opponent is way below you in MMR or not.
On April 12 2012 06:04 OrbitalPlane wrote: You said in that post: "every time I start to lose more than I win my opponents get more and more favored". I actually think it is the other way around. Every time your opponents get favored you will loose more.
quotes from Excalibur_Z guide: Your points will drift toward your hidden MMR over a period of time, ... MMR is more volatile than points.
That's not what that quote means.
The reason that losing streaks late in a season often result in opponents being favored after a while is that it appears that you'll lose points faster than MMR, at least at first, so since your points wind up artificially low compared to your MMR, you'll be awarded more points per win for a while. (That's what the "favored" indication means.)
On average, even with the changes, you'll still be matched against players the system believes have a 50% chance to beat you, if it can find them (and lack of those players hitting the button is why people like Nerchio talk about playing Diamond league players.)
The new system is very bad. I shouldn't be matched with those noobs. I didn't have to play with them before the new season.
Team games have notoriously wacky matchmaking anyway. I doubt this is a result of the new system. A lot of the time the difference between a gold team and a masters team is having a coherent strategy (read: all in), so there are a lot of teams in team games with deceptively low ranks but high MMRs
You obviously have not played many team games in your SC2 career... I also had several score screens that looked similar to that yesterday, never had them before the start of this season. Being in master league, I would usually get a mix of masters and diamonds, maybe an occasional high rank/mmr plat. But two random plats AND two random golds placed in my game one after another? Never before - definitely a result of the new system. Took me a while to work my way up to masters in random 4's, and I enjoy much more having teammates as well as opponents that are at my level, now I have to deal with filth again as if I'm working my way up from gold. 5-0 so far though, and that's just playing on my own... playing alongside my master league friends will be an absolute slaughter. Would much prefer to have some better competetion on a consistent basis... smashing noobs is not very satisfying/fulfilling.
Edit: I guess that is just from my perspective though... from the gold players persepective who is now all of a sudden getting diamond and master leaguers in their game, this may be the first chance they've ever gotten to play with/against some better players - should be a nice change for them and a good opportunity to improve.
On April 12 2012 08:17 ishyishy wrote: I think that everyone just needs to stfu about MMR and just play the damn game lol.
this. The MMR is practically the only thing blizzard got right with bnet2.0, its the only thing i trust them with, so i accept the changes and play ladder either way. If i beat ez people so be it. If i face higher skill opponents....so be it.
On April 12 2012 04:11 wladis wrote: This is a pretty stupid post. The placing IS broken. I can provide you with screenshots that I was in Silver and winning EVERY SINGLE MATCH. Literally, every single one. I did my division placement thing, oh look at that, I'm in bronze now. Did 3 matches in a row, won them all. Seriously, Starcraft 2 is fucked up, like when I was in silver it was throwing me against Plats and I was beating those. But did it move me up a league? Fuck no. Stupid.
If that's actually happening to you, then yes, that's likely broken somehow. It's not a common thing, though. You might want to post about it in the bug report forum on the battle.net SC2 forums. Bring your screenshots and be nicer about it though.
On April 12 2012 08:22 rhs408 wrote: I enjoy much more having teammates as well as opponents that are at my level, now I have to deal with filth again as if I'm working my way up from gold.
Man, I know that this change is likely to have a bigger impact in 3s and 4s, but I don't think you have to refer to gold and plat players as "filth" to get your point across.
On April 12 2012 08:22 rhs408 wrote: I enjoy much more having teammates as well as opponents that are at my level, now I have to deal with filth again as if I'm working my way up from gold.
Man, I know that this change is likely to have a bigger impact in 3s and 4s, but I don't think you have to refer to gold and plat players as "filth" to get your point across.
I agree, bad choice of words. Glad you got my point though
On April 12 2012 08:32 rhs408 wrote: I agree, bad choice of words. Glad you got my point though
No problem.
I think what's going on here is that the matchmaking system probably has some single factor that's tied to desired wait time for a game, and they implemented wider matchmaking by reducing the desired wait time. I remember them fiddling with this a bunch in Beta and letting people know that wait times would be somewhat longer or whatever after certain patches.
Of course, in 3s and 4s, the pool of players is small enough that enough of a reduction in target wait time might have a huge impact on team composition. Might be worth posting your experience as feedback on the battle.net forums, because they did make clear they were treating this as a little bit of an experiment, and maybe it can be improved by tightening up the tolerance on the larger game sizes.
I play 4s when I don't feel like trying very hard. The new matchmaking is completely broken for team games. There was already a huge disparity of skill within team Masters. Now I'm getting Gold/Platinums in game. That's not fun for anyone.
1v1 matchmaking seems a bit off too, but nowhere near as broken as team.
People say it's changed but like you said, it won't stabalize for a while
Anyways I'll repeat myself, I think the changes were already in effect since Season 6 locked up.
Example from my history:
+8 -8 +8 -9
How does that make sense? I beat a lower player, then lost vs a higher player, then beat a lower player, then lost vs a higher player.
It used to be much more stable like -12 +12. Now when I wasn't even on a losing nor winning streak it kept matching me with higher or lower players (I'm usually at 750, it gave me diamonds and 850s often, but more lows than high... probably since there are more diamonds and they might be more active overall than the higher masters since there's so much less of them).
It certainly was on at the end of season 6. I had a game where I beat this guy pretty quick (I am gold) and he was bronze. I was like "huh... weird...why match me vs a bronze..."
On April 12 2012 06:04 OrbitalPlane wrote: You said in that post: "every time I start to lose more than I win my opponents get more and more favored". I actually think it is the other way around. Every time your opponents get favored you will loose more.
quotes from Excalibur_Z guide: Your points will drift toward your hidden MMR over a period of time, ... MMR is more volatile than points.
No. If that was the case my opponents wouldn't get more and more favored the more into a losing streak I get. The graphs wouldn't be mirrors of each other like that.
And "MMR is more volatile than points" is true for new players, but not generally. He needs to update his guide.
Play a game on cloud kingdom vs hasuobs, with incredible simcity and perfect macro. Get demolished.
Next game on cloud kingdom vs a protoss who starts with building 5 cannons in his nat, and doesn't leave his base for 15 minutes while building voidrays and colossi without gateway units. How this guy ever got into masters I will never know.
I'm all for a bit looser matchmaking, but really now?
On April 12 2012 14:43 Kira__ wrote: Play a game on cloud kingdom vs hasuobs, with incredible simcity and perfect macro. Get demolished.
Next game on cloud kingdom vs a protoss who starts with building 5 cannons in his nat, and doesn't leave his base for 15 minutes while building voidrays and colossi without gateway units. How this guy ever got into masters I will never know.
I'm all for a bit looser matchmaking, but really now?
I gotta back up that guy - he is probably just going for the free wins as none of the zergs i have met in high diamond can deal with such a strategy.
Most of them just roll over and die to superfast thirds, or 7gate blink, or zealot dance party, with the latter two being >90% winrate, you would be suprised at how many dont know how to deal with such a simple and easy to execute strategy such as the one you mentioned. The vast vast majority of people sitting around high diamond but unable to push past low masters are just metagame heroes, who have done the exact same thing 500 times, and taking such wins is very pleasurable.
Its a shame that bad terrans are harder to abuse and PvP doesnt stretch a lot of skills, the control given to protoss in PvZ will allow you to destroy an inferior zerg with dozens of strategies of your choosing, and pretty much any high diamond zerg is inferior to anyone with good macro, mechanics, timings, army control who doesnt fit into the metagame warrior role.
The start of all your seasons, most people have appeared as 'favored' and guess what, on their end, YOU were 'favored' Favored is not an objective system....BOTH players can see each other as favored. There's two reasons: First, because placement players tend to show as favored to give you the benefit of the doubt, and many people you play today will be doing their placement, secondly. It does not compare your rank vs rank or MMR vs MMR, it apparently compares Rank vs MMR. So it possible, especially early on, both players show as favoured.
Bigger issue for me is it saying one of us is favored at the start, yet at the end saying evenly matched. It should make up it's mind -_-. There's no reason to design an idiotic system where the matchmaker announces that you're favored vs. your opponent before the game, but when it's over it says something different.
I'm not sure if this is part of the new matchmaking system, but I played 4 placement games for 2v2 and beat bronzies, lost to a silver pair, then beat two silver pairs. I got placed into diamond.
The start of all your seasons, most people have appeared as 'favored' and guess what, on their end, YOU were 'favored' Favored is not an objective system....BOTH players can see each other as favored. There's two reasons: First, because placement players tend to show as favored to give you the benefit of the doubt, and many people you play today will be doing their placement, secondly. It does not compare your rank vs rank or MMR vs MMR, it apparently compares Rank vs MMR. So it possible, especially early on, both players show as favoured.
Bigger issue for me is it saying one of us is favored at the start, yet at the end saying evenly matched. It should make up it's mind -_-. There's no reason to design an idiotic system where the matchmaker announces that you're favored vs. your opponent before the game, but when it's over it says something different.
Really bad design.
I played 12 games tonight won 4 against diamond players, and got matched against 4 master players in top 8 with 75% win ratios at the time of playing. I felt like I was climbing up hill, only after an 8 loss streak did it place me against worse players and they were not very good diamond players.
Explain how one game I'm matched against a platinum player that I completely roll and next game I play a top 8 master that crushes me (I only lost 4 points for that, showing how his mmr is way higher than mine). I understand that the new matchmaking system puts you against a wider skill range of players, but this is a bit extreme. I'm all for playing better players but not players that I have zero chance against.
I am rank 27 masters and it seems like about 8/10 of my opponents are now diamond rank and 2/10 are masters. I guess it's nice to win a bit more than 50%, but at the same time it is getting a little bit boring since I'm mostly facing weak opponents.
so, finally blizzard killed SC2. after all those ridiculous nerfs against my loved terran race, they implemented the most fucked up matchmaking system ever
match history:
game 1: me (s6 grandmaster, now master obv.) vs Platinum game 2: vs diamond game 3: diamond game 4: diamon game 5: master game 6: master game 7: platinum game 8: diamon game 9: master game 10: master - grubby game 11: master - hasuobs game 12: platinum game 13: platinum game 14: GOLD!! LOOOOOOL
won 12 games out of those 14, i lost vs hasuobs and grubby
thx blizzard, for finally killing SC2, so i can enjoy my diablo 3 next month without regretting leaving sc2
does anyone know how this affects random partners in team games? the changes are pretty cool and good for 1v1 but in 2v2,3v3,4v4 getting paired with a lesser skilled player can be seriously frustrating.
I actually like this new system, it gives you a chance to play against all sorts of players, and tbh it mentally helps us ragers a bit too since we win more games since we will occasionally play low level players. If anyone remembers Iccup, I feel that this is more like iccup because in iccup each season you had to start at D rank and play low level players until you got to the higher ranks.
On April 12 2012 17:59 psychotics wrote: does anyone know how this affects random partners in team games? the changes are pretty cool and good for 1v1 but in 2v2,3v3,4v4 getting paired with a lesser skilled player can be seriously frustrating.
Yes, that's what often happens now in team games. masters can get paired with golds and plats
On April 11 2012 09:32 awu25 wrote: Did they change how placements work? I thought if you skip a season, you have to do 5 again?
This is true ONLY IF you also do not play solo-team games (random partner-2v2's 3v3's 4v4's) because your 1v1 MMR is somehow linked to your Team-game MMR
So if you didnt play 1v1 for a whole season and also did not play solo-team games, then yes, you would have to redo your 5 placement matches at the start of the new season
Wait, really? I've never heard that your team games had anything to do with solo MMR. I've been matched with GM players on many occasions in solo masters teams and I'll tell you for damn sure I'm no GM in 1v1.
I can't believe Blizzard would be as dumb to make MMR work like that... but then again, it IS Blizzard..
If u play teams in SEA, I think we're a special case since there are much less people who play... D; Could be wrong though.
On April 11 2012 22:28 Najda wrote: I'm not sure if it's because my MMR is still unstable (only 16 games played total, 10 this season) or if it's the new matchmaking system, but in the new season I seem to be facing everyone from high Platinum to low master (I'm currently diamond).
I'm curious if this just means it's a wider range period, or if it means that after each win the people you face get better more rapidly and vice versa.
On April 11 2012 21:37 EnderSword wrote: I guess i keep reading everything 'correcting' my statement on point #3 and I don't see the difference in what I'm saying and what you're saying.
At no point in #3 do i even mention favoured or not, and I explicitly say prior to that, of course favoured does not mean better.
I also don't mean an offset in terms of raw wins, but an offset in points. favoured certainly doesn't mean 0-4 vs 20-24 for most people. There's not only not an assumption that it mimics ELO, but the absolute ruling out of the idea that it mimics ELO, it wouldn't behave like that whatsoever if it mimiced an ELO system.
In number 3, you say:
"It's matching me only against better people!!" This might actually be true
This cannot possibly be true.
If the matchmaker is always matching you against better players, then your opponent is matched to a worse player (you). It is a contradiction of logic that everyone can be matched against better players.
It is possible for it to be true for some people.
If one person is improving rapidly, it's going to keep placing you against people who are 'better' than you (higher MMR) to find where you belong. Likewise, if someone is on the way down, it will put them against people who are worse than them to find their new home.
It's not true.
How quickly your MMR is increasing has no effect on who you are matched against, you are always matched against players in the range of your MMR +/- fudge factor, where the fudge factor is greater now than it was last season.
On April 12 2012 17:52 boppel wrote: so, finally blizzard killed SC2. after all those ridiculous nerfs against my loved terran race, they implemented the most fucked up matchmaking system ever
match history:
game 1: me (s6 grandmaster, now master obv.) vs Platinum game 2: vs diamond game 3: diamond game 4: diamon game 5: master game 6: master game 7: platinum game 8: diamon game 9: master game 10: master - grubby game 11: master - hasuobs game 12: platinum game 13: platinum game 14: GOLD!! LOOOOOOL
won 12 games out of those 14, i lost vs hasuobs and grubby
thx blizzard, for finally killing SC2, so i can enjoy my diablo 3 next month without regretting leaving sc2
Be sure to post your feelings in the Blizzard battle.net forums. They are definitely watching for reactions to how this is going.
I wonder how are they going to sell this idea to new players. How are you going to get any fair practice if you are in bronze and have to play against gold/silver? I'm in bronze and out of 16 games 2 have been vs bronze. In the original Blizzard post on battle.net they said it would be "well rounded".
Sure...
EDIT: By "well rounded" they meant the gaming experience in general. For me it was kinda well rounded last season, won ~60% of my games and most were vs high bronze to high silver. Some weirdness here and there but overall ok.
Now my winrate is more like 35%. Playing more vs golds that should be in plat than bronzes and getting roflstomped in most games isn't all that fun.
Yea, the match making does not work for me right now. Last season I was winning 50% of my games vs other gold players. This season I have faced 6 platinums in a row. My record is not doing well…. Not sure who was complaining about games being too close or even, this simply seems like a really bad idea, imo.
I actually like the fact that we are playing a variety of people... Makes it more interesting, so i know going into a ladder session i dont have to be totally focused, and can now relax... But thats just me, and i am just a casual gamer so...
On April 12 2012 23:19 Myia wrote: I actually like the fact that we are playing a variety of people... Makes it more interesting, so i know going into a ladder session i dont have to be totally focused, and can now relax... But thats just me, and i am just a casual gamer so...
edit: typos
The variety thing doesn't really work when you are in bronze because there simply are no lower league players to play against.
maybe Blizz can make an option of the type of laddering u want.. the new version or the old version, cause i imagine a lot of pros that go in to ladder and play against mid masters to diamond and say wtf? i can practice here!, int the old version you could wait a few minutes but you normally found oponents according to your skill.. well its just a tes for this season, lets wait
On April 11 2012 09:32 awu25 wrote: Did they change how placements work? I thought if you skip a season, you have to do 5 again?
This is true ONLY IF you also do not play solo-team games (random partner-2v2's 3v3's 4v4's) because your 1v1 MMR is somehow linked to your Team-game MMR
So if you didnt play 1v1 for a whole season and also did not play solo-team games, then yes, you would have to redo your 5 placement matches at the start of the new season
Wait, really? I've never heard that your team games had anything to do with solo MMR. I've been matched with GM players on many occasions in solo masters teams and I'll tell you for damn sure I'm no GM in 1v1.
I can't believe Blizzard would be as dumb to make MMR work like that... but then again, it IS Blizzard..
If u play teams in SEA, I think we're a special case since there are much less people who play... D; Could be wrong though.
You have to not play ANYTHING ranked for an entire season to have your MMR reset. In season 4 i only played teamgames - still only had to play 1 placement match for season 5. When I didn't use my alt account at all during season 5, I had to play 5 matches.
As for different MMRs being linked, afaik it only affects anything when you haven't been placed yet. For instance: when I started playing arranged 4v4 with my friends all our placement matches were against high masters in 4v4, since we were all high masters in 2v2 and 3v3. I'd assume it's the same if you have only been ranked in teamgames before, but is playing your 1v1's for the first time.
Some of the games, I played yesterday... I think the range of matching should be at least Platinum - Master, cause in this case I just 1v4 destroy them
Lysenko and Mendelfist are correct, and a lot of this stuff is already covered in the Ladder Guide. There's some inaccurate information in the OP that could lead to some confusion so I want to make sure that doesn't spiral out of control, and therefore I'll close this thread. I'll just repost my response to a "season 7 matchmaking reaction post" that appeared over on the Battle.net forums.
The reason behind the expanded matchmaking range is known only to Blizzard, and we can only speculate. However, it is true that there are fewer active players now than in Season 1, and it's possible that wait times on average were long enough due to the reduced player pool that Blizzard decided to make this change. It's also possible that Blizzard is thinking ahead and expect fewer active players immediately after Diablo III launches, which will be in the second half of this season.
The mechanics behind the matchmaking change aren't specifically documented, either, but all signs seem to point toward a larger minimum search range both upward and downward. Let's say the old minimum search range was +/- 10% and now this season it's +/- 12%. That means you're just as likely to face players 12% better than you as 12% worse. The end result is that on the average, you will still play against players on your level because the chances of better or worse are still equal.
What I predict is that we'll see a lot more posts complaining about unfair matchmaking because players are going to be more likely to say "What the, I'm only Gold so why is a Diamond beating me? No wonder I lost!" without remembering the previous game where they beat a Bronze player. That's basic game psychology where losses are generally more memorable than wins.
EPT
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